Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,211
- 10,535
Time Power
The Nature of Time PowerWe need to talk about what Time Power is, and what it isn't. So let's just go in order, since there's a ton of ground to cover.
- These scans set a solid foundation for what Time Power is, although they don't elaborate on its nature an awful lot. Still, we can conclude that it serves a similar role to Ki in Dragon Ball, empowering its users and letting them achieve new forms. So far, nothing egregious has been claimed...
- ...and then we get to this scan. Tokitoki's eggs have the energy to create time (elsewhere, they're stated to create timelines/universes). This is interpreted as these eggs containing a literal, actual energy source, and that that energy is none other than Time Power. Main issue here is how uh, nothing says this is Time Power. It's just some kind of energy that controls time; Mind you, ki in Dragon Ball can already do this to some extent. Moreover, "energy" in Japanese is a very versatile word that has multiple meanings. It could just as easily be translated as "the power to create time", "the strength to create time", or "the ability to create time". "Energy" is being cherrypicked out of a variety of valid translations for no reason in particular, and there is very little context to back up the interpretation drawn from that highly specific translation. In short, there being some abstract energy that controls/creates time is nothing short of a myth.
- This scan claims to be about "raw temporal energy". This would be tremendously useful evidence for Time Power being a literal kind of energy that governs time, but uh... that would require the scan to actually mention temporal energy, which it does not do. Agios is just using a sealing technique here.
- These scans are used to claim that Time Power is inherently contained within the user's aura/energy attacks. Is this true? no lol
- This scan is just Chronoa mentioning space-time attacks. No mention of Time Power is made.
- This scan is simply Agios using a time stop. The album claims that this is her mixing her hax into an energy blast, but uh... nothing actually says that??
- The following scan is the effect of that time stop, but the album claims it was a "Time Power blast". This is complete headcanon that is not substantiated by either scan in this sequence, because again, Time Power is not even implied to be a factor here.
- This one just pisses me off. Agios' quote is, verbatim "He destroyed the frozen space-time". Not a whole lot of context, at best we can just assume that DBH follows the "higher power levels can neg time stop" rule that canon DB already follows. But then the album claims that she's actually saying "Time Power destroyed the frozen space-time". This is just lying. The scan makes no mention of Time Power, not even as an implication, and is simply someone ignoring time manipulation, which is being deliberately misconstrued as "no trust me guys it's totally Time Power!!".
- This scan is an even worse offender. The album claims that Tokitoki's Time Power sealed away the Gods of Destruction's abilities. Now, the power null is 100% accurate - the obvious problem is that the scan does not mention Time Power at all and, in fact, credits Tokitoki's KI for the power null. This is, again, what we refer to as "lying". And just to get this out of the way, no, the GoD's not being familiar with Tokitoki is not a factor; If Tokitoki's ki was to blame here (which it was), then they'd be aware of it regardless, seeing as ki sensing is among the most basic ki techniques there is.
- This scan is supposedly Fu's Time Power aura nullifying everyone's abilities. This is odd, since the scan does not actually mention Time Power at all. Neither does the name of the technique, for the record (deepl suggests it's something along the lines of "I won't let you get in my way!").
- For the record, these same scans are also used to suggest that Time Power users in general have a passive aura filled with "temporal energy" that carries Time Power's effects, which again, is not actually stated.
- The following scan is in a similar boat, but there is actually precedent for Time Power being involved. Goku in this scan has absorbed power from the Universe Tree, which does indeed include Time Power, so there's no problem, right? Well uh... The Universe Tree also contains Dark Factor, Power of Destruction, and God Ki, so it's fundamentally impossible to attribute its traits to just Time Power; It could be from any other individual source, or the mixture of multiple sources. There's no way to know for sure, so asserting that it must be Time Power is inherently suspect. Another issue lies in how this scan is phrased. It implies that Goku is nullifying Fu's sealing through his Time Power aura, which is in itself power nullification. The problem is that this is being treated as both power nullification anda resistance; It can't be both, though. If it's being nullified, then there's nothing to resist. If it's being resisted, there's nothing to nullify. So DBH supporters need to pick an interpretation and stick to it, because right now they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.
- These scans pose another inherent problem with Time Power's assumed passive nature. See, the first scan makes it very explicit that those fighting Fu do not resist the supposed effects of his Time Power. If he does indeed have Time Power, and its effects are passive (as is often claimed by DBH supporters), then the EE should also be passive much like the power null (something which you see claimed in relevant DBH VS threads). So uh... can someone explain why nobody in that scene is getting Biden Blasted out of existence by Fu's aura if Time Power's EE is legitimately passive?
- We can take this one step further, though. Goku's aura from the Universe Tree, which is claimed to be Time Power, is treated as having range equivalent to the full cosmology. So uh... if everything DBH supporters claim is true, then Goku has passive EE that erases time itself on a cosmology-wide scale... yet the cosmology is completely unaffected. If Goku passively erases time, yet time remains totally unaffected, then guess what! It means he isn't actually erasing time! From a narrative perspective, too, this is insane; Goku Biden Blasting all of existence into nothingness would be a fucking insane plot point which, while funny in theory, is almost certainly not something that is ever going to happen in Dragon Ball.
- These scans pose another inherent problem with Time Power's assumed passive nature. See, the first scan makes it very explicit that those fighting Fu do not resist the supposed effects of his Time Power. If he does indeed have Time Power, and its effects are passive (as is often claimed by DBH supporters), then the EE should also be passive much like the power null (something which you see claimed in relevant DBH VS threads). So uh... can someone explain why nobody in that scene is getting Biden Blasted out of existence by Fu's aura if Time Power's EE is legitimately passive?
- This scan and this scan propose that Fu's aura is Time Power itself, and thereby contains all of Time Power's effects within that passive aura. This is... not stated anywhere? He just has an aura, which is somehow extrapolated into passively carrying a ton of effects (including EE, which as explained above, inherently contradicts itself) despite nothing actually showing this to be the case, or even implying that this aura even is Time Power to begin with. I don't know how many times I can rephrase the basic idea of "DBH supporters keep claiming the scans say something when they explicitly do not", because it seems to happen a lot.
- Finally, we come to this scan, which suggests that Agios is using her Time Power to do whatever. Again, not actually shown or stated. Just "someone with Time Power is using hax, ergo all Time Power users can do this", which I really hope most people can tell is bullshit.
- So, either these scans do not mention Time Power, mention something that is explicitly not Time Power, or just extrapolate the highest possible interpretation from very little information. No scan actually suggests that Time Power's effects are passive, and in fact, it would be extremely odd if they were, given how characters aren't constantly getting erased from existence just by standing near one another, even in scenes where there is a demonstrable difference in the potency of their Time Power.
- There's no particular reason to go through each individual scan in this album, since it once again comes down to "the album claims these effects are due to Time Power, when in actuality the scans Do Not Fucking Say That".
- This scan is used to say that Time Power users can project "temporal energy" in order to attack, when uh... again, the scan does not say or imply this. Am I insane? Is this what Hell is? Has my downplay finally culminated in my sins being judged and my mortal shell cast aside whilst my soul forever roils in torment?
- These scans also exist, and claim that Time Scrolls are made of Time Power. This is uh, not true? The vast majority of scans in this album mention no such thing, and are merely demonstrations of characters creating, destroying, or messing with Time Scrolls. The only thing implying the connection between Time Power and Time Scrolls is Demigra, who absorbs the scrolls and gains a "Time Power Unleashed" form. For starters, absorbing something and gaining power from it does not mean whatever you absorbed is literally made of the power you gain. But more importantly, Demigra never states the Time Scrolls are Time Power like the album says he does; He just says he regained the power of time, which does NOT mean Time Scrolls are literally made of that power. The album also claims the new form he gained requires enormous amounts of Time Power to sustain; That would be a solid piece of supporting evidence, if it were actually true. Nothing in the album actually says this, so whoever made the album just... made that up, for some reason?
- "Time Power" is not an abstract energy source and does not govern reality on any level; It allows for the manipulation of time, but its existence does not sustain time.
- The hax granted by Time Power are not passive, and are not channeled through every basic energy attack the user uses.
- Greater Time Power does not demonstrate greater hax potency.
- Time Scrolls are not made of Time Power and need the associated abilities removed.
Sealing is getting downgraded slightly. Right now, it's proposed that Time Power can seal Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura, who had absorbed the entire cosmology into his body. This is used to claim that Time Power can seal the entire cosmology all at once, when this is disingenuous. It was not strictly Time Power's doing, as it was accomplished via a fusion of multiple separate power sources, among which Time Power was but a single component; In other words, this feat was done via an amp, and is not something that should be scaled Time Power in general.
This is also a logical issue, too. Eternal Time Labyrinth banishes people to the Crack of Time. Mechikabura was supposedly fused with the Crack of Time, so the Crack of Time was sealed and sent to... the Crack of Time. This does not make any fucking sense and either means 1. Mechikabura was not actually fused with the Crack of Time at the time, or 2. Eternal Time Labyrinth did not actually seal the entirety of Mechikabura's being. I lean towards the former, since if the Crack of Time was absorbed, then it wouldn't be there for Mechikabura to get sealed within.
Existence Erasure
The Ziku World and Janemba parts need to be removed, as they were agreed to be invalid for informational/conceptual EE in the previous thread.
Nonexistence Erasure
This stems from how it's assumed Time Power can erase the time/history of everything, including various realms that are voids/devoid of space-time or history. However, the statements pertaining to this erasure are very particular; They all explicitly state that time and history will be erased. There is no indication that Time Power can actually erase worlds devoid of such aspects; We do have Mechikabura's Chaos Ball, which does likely have cosmology-wide range, but that's specifically absorption and not EE. There's no reason to assume that the ability to erase time extends to things devoid of time; It's an inherently contradictory stance to take, so there must be explicit confirmation that this is the case, except there just... isn't. And to address these scans, nothing in them actually says the Time Scrolls store nonexistent timelines, and these seem to just be examples of beings coming from destroyed timelines, or the Time Scrolls recording the destruction of a timeline (which, seeing as it is a record of time, it only makes sense that it'd record when time ends as well; Doesn't mean it contains nonexistence itself, of course).
Power Nullification
There's no need to specify that Time Power negates power bestowal and statistics amplification. It's very redundant.
Non-Physical Interaction
Why the hell is invisibility listed when you don't even need NPI for that lol
That aside... The vast majority of Time Power's NPI (save for the illusion/energy bit) stems from scaling to Ki, which isn't how NPI works. They're both energy sources, yes, but they do different things, and you can't really cross-scale hax like that. This ultimately doesn't impact the verse's NPI, since Ki does have legitimate NPI and everyone can use Ki, but these things ought to be removed from the Time Power page seeing as they actually belong to a completely separate power. Also, nuking/creating a timeline doesn't give you NPI for everything in that timeline, cmon now.
Universe Tree
Resistance to Chaos BallIt's assumed that the Universe Tree resists Mechikabura's Chaos Ball (the black hole that sucked up the whole comsology) because it had absorbed Tokitoki and a fair amount of Dark Factor, and therefore had enough Time Power/Dark Factor to resist such effects. Uh... one problem though. Tokitoki got absorbed. As did multiple characters who have access to Dark Factor. They didn't resist shit, so the Universe Tree inheriting their resistances is meaningless. There's no reason why this should be an "extreme" resistance, either.
Resistance to Immortality & Regeneration Negation
No actual justification is given for this beyond the page saying it "should be able to" resist these effects. If there is no actual reason for this assumption, remove it. In a similar vein, while the EE resistance is valid, the mentions of "should be able to resist its own erasure power" ought to be removed as well.
Nothing in this scan showcases regeneration.
Truthfully, there are so many things I find wrong with DBH pages that I could be here all day. But I would rather not be here all day, so maybe I'll make more threads later down the line if this one passes.
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