Dragon My Balls Through Broken Glass [DBH Downgrades, Continued]

[Theglassman12]

Not really making a vote here since I’m still waiting for both sides to get all of their arguments across, but I will say Dagoth’s comments on the “greater time power means more potency” isn’t wrong given time users are shown to resist their own abilities being used against them, and Agios, who’s a superior time user to chronoa was capable of freezing her in place with her own time power. So that part is still valid unless there’s any contradictions on higher time power bypassing the resistances of lower time users.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dagoth seemed to claim that "greater Time Power = better resistances" wasn't the justification being used for the layers, so I'm a little confused on what the truth is here.

 

[speedster352]

Can we at least wait for viethai?

 

[segetero]

I'm not sure if this helps, but the universe’s aura is deadly.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am in more agreement with Dagoth here atm.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Alright, fair enough. However, I'm not sure about the nonexistent history section being added - it's not like the Demon Realm is incorporeal and unable to be physically touched just because it lacks history. Many acausal characters also lack history, but they still have physical bodies, so I don't think Time Power would even need NPI to affect the Demon Realm? The only thing that'd apply is the nonexistence erasure (assuming that stays), but that could just stay in its own section ngl.

Well slapping both the nonexistent history & the Demon Realm into a Time Scroll could work potentially but as long as it's made clear that they can affect such constructs in some way.

The problem is that the sole explanation for the Universe Tree resisting the Chaos Ball is because it had Dark Factor and Time Power. So, if neither of those abilities grant resistance to the Chaos Ball - which they don't, you can see that on their respective pages - then what exactly is the basis for the Universe Tree resisting it?

Seems to me that the explanation just needs a bit of clarification. But like I said, it's the combination of both powers that grants those resistances. The individual powers don't have it on their pages because they obviously don't resist it own. It's the two powers combined together that grants it which the Universe Tree possesses

This just wraps back around to the problem I keep bringing up, though. The Demon Realm doesn't have history, so it being considered a "false history" is fallacious, because it'd imply that it does have some history. You cannot define a location by a lack of something, and then lump it in with locations that are defined by the presence of that thing. It'd be like if a villain said "I'm going to destroy every country with a mountain in it, including the countries that don't have mountains!". It just doesn't make any sense.

I disagree. Both can be referred as "false histories" since they don't qualify for an actual proper history with a flow of events. The nonexistent history is not a proper history since it's a completely nonexistent history & the Demon Realm isn't a part of time. Hell, Chronoa throwing a hissy fit over the nonexistent history being a thing already proves that it's clearly not treated as a normal, proper thing (not to mention the fact she was probably gonna take care of place on her own if she wasn't preoccupied with the demons)

That's fine then, but this yet again runs into the issue of "why are we scaling this to everyone?" due to how Time Power Unleashed Demigra is very explicitly stronger than most other Time Power users, even those with their own Time Power Unleashed forms (at least I assume so, if his VSBW page is accurate, which I hope it is). There's this persistent issue where you want to treat Time Power as this all-encompassing energy source, but also want to scale all of its applications to every user when that is very explicitly not how we treat energy sources on this wiki.

Because Demigra being stronger doesn't really matter at all. It's the fact that he's cosmology wiping with Time Power EE that matters here. With Time Power's EE he can erase everything there is. Strength is a non-factor here

I uh, think you missed the point a little bit. I'm not saying that Tokitoki can't bestow Time Power or that it doesn't use it a lot, but I'm saying that we can't just assume that anything and everything related to Tokitoki is a consequence of Time Power and then scale it to everyone. That Tokitoki has its own unique physiology as a Time Bird and evidently has Ki to some extent shows that yes, it's very possible to separate Tokitoki's powers from Time Power (even if there is a lot of overlap). All of this is to say that this whole paragraph still does not prove that "energy" devoid of context = Time Power.

Time Power is the least assumptious choice in this case, especially when regarding abilities related to time and it being regarded as his main power as a Time Bird. Also a Time Bird having a unique physiology doesn't really work as a point here since even a Supreme Kai of Time has the power to create universes/timelines/time like Tokitoki's eggs can. Considering how Tokitoki is a Time God who mainly uses Time Power and even other Time Power users can create time like Tokitoki's eggs can, the most likely conclusion would simply be Time Power in this case

No? Why on earth would we scale this to absolutely everyone in the verse, and not just the one character who showcased this specific feat? Like I said before, this trend of scaling everybody on the basis of "well this one guy did it so everyone else should be able to do it too" needs to stop.

Because it's treated as a general ability of Ki. The only thing Tokitoki did there was that he just cast his Kiai on the GoD's and their abilities were sealed. No super specific techniques or anything of the sorts, simply him just throwing a basic Kiai at them which is even shown to already have limited power nullifying properties. Hell, even the limited power null in the Ki page works this way since it's just Gohan using his Ki to nullify weaker Ki, it's nothing special. All this proves is that a Kiai attack can actually null stronger opponents, thus not limited power null

I mean that's just an energy blast that erases people from existence. I think extending that to every single application of Time Power all at once requires significantly more evidence than "well this one guy used a Time Power blast to do EE once". Although this doesn't really solve the issue of passive EE - characters who are claimed to possess passive Time Power, even when that Time Power is obviously affecting other characters around them, do not erase people from existence. Goku and Fu would've killed a lot of people if that was the case.

I mean, we never actually extended that to every application of Time Power in the first place. Not every Time Power hax is tied to energy. As for EE, like I said, it's a passive effect of their energy so it's tied to energy control & whether people actually come into contact with their energy or aura. Aios was just going to Freeze Chronoa with her energy blast, not erase her because she didn't want to erase her. They can choose to apply these effects in their energy/aura or not just like with the Energy of Destruction or with TPU Demigra's attack. Also, in the case of Goku & Fu, their EE is also tied to their passive aura so range is a factor there and whether people actually come into contact with it

I mean, the first point doesn't really change anything. Chronoa still needs to provide her Time Power for the Time Scrolls to like. actually do anything, so using that feat as a basis is still faulty.

Not really if she creates the Time Scrolls with her Time Power from scratch which she can do. If the scrolls are made from Chronoa's TP then they can obviously perform space-time abilities

In that case, the resistance tabber on the Time Power page should just be deleted (because the only justification for it is "having more Time Power means you can resist lesser Time Power", which seems to have already been deemed invalid) and the relevant profiles should have a resistance to Time Power in the appropriate keys.

This seems unnecessary. Simply fixing the writing on the resistance tabber would be enough, and having the resistances in one page rather than several ones seems more efficient to me

 

[segetero]

Okay, so what is going on with this thread? It has not been concluded, correct?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Can we at least wait for viethai?

He won't come, it looks like he broke his cell phone.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, so what is going on with this thread? It has not been concluded, correct?

I've been busy, and admittedly it feels a bit weird trying to downgrade DB right after Toriyama's death. So, give it a little bit and I'll get back to this.

 

[CaveGamist]

I disagree with the ningens downgrade fra imo

 

[DivineAura44]

I've been busy, and admittedly it feels a bit weird trying to downgrade DB right after Toriyama's death. So, give it a little bit and I'll get back to this.

Well then stop thinking about it like that. You aren't "downgrading DB", you are making it more accurate.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Well then stop thinking about it like that. You aren't "downgrading DB", you are making it more accurate.

While that is true, I think We all need some time before touching anything related to DB, due to Akira's death.... I am still in denial.

 

[DivineAura44]

While that is true, I think We all need some time before touching anything related to DB, due to Akira's death.... I am still in denial.

That's definitely an understandable reaction, I think everyone's still reeling after the news.

 

[Da3ggman]

(Questionably appropriate) Bump