Dragon Ball's Hax vs AP

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, so from this thread. It seems like there's a lot of contention on how the hax in Dragon Ball works. On whether all hax is weak against stronger opponents, which ones ignore the strength of the opponent completely and etc. I made this thread so it be discussed because this type of argument seems to happen a lot and really derails the thread so having it be settled here would be best. I put it in general discussion for now but it could be moved to CRT after a conclusion has been made.

 

[Ryukama]

There was already some threads about it

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1085816

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1087383

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That's more about being phyiscally stronger not giving hax resistance. This is about whether or not the hax in Dragon Ball has a weakness to physical strength and if this applies to every hax ability in the verse.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll repeat something I said in the thread Dragon linked to:

Instead of trying to assign some kind of general rule to how hax works in DB, we look at the showing of a particular technique and its ins and outs.

If a technique is dependent on power (EX: Hit's Time Stop), we make note of that. Stronger opponents being able to resist it is a weakness on Hit's part, not simply a feat of resistance on his opponent's.

 

[Akreious]

"If a technique is dependent on power (EX: Hit's Time Stop), we make note of that. Stronger opponents being able to resist it is a weakness on Hit's part, not simply a feat of resistance on his opponent's."

Problem with this is that Goku explicitly said he was able to bypass Hit's Time Skip ability himself rather than any inherent weakness in Hit's technique which is why Goku has resistance to Time Stop in the first place. Jiren was later able to bypass Hit's time abilities because he quote "Transcended time itself", which while it could be hyperbole/an outlier, means that it's an ability of Jiren and not a weakness of Hit.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I will agree with Ryu eternally on this topic.

 

[Kepekley23]

No, being stronger doesn't mean having hax resistance. I ranted about the stuff oon that thread on Discord with both Ultima and Matt and they both agree with me.

There is literally only one example in the "Z" portion of the series, not counting Manga Hit due to it being a separate canon to the Anime continuity and that being a flaw of his technique:

• Chiaotsu's Telekinesis doesn't work on Nappa because he is stronger

That's literally the only direct example in the entire series against more than eight or nine I have posted that directly debunk it. Vegito doesn't count due to the Daizenshuu saying that's a special ability only he has, which we accept.

Sorry but the "stronger = resistance to hax" is completely false.

 

[Wokistan]

Telekinesis isn't really hax anyways. You're still exerting some amount of force, which is derived from your AP or LS.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, Telekinesis is considered hax but at certain levels, low levels are limited by target's strength. But yes, there's few hax in DB that do works regardless of PL, like Guldo's timestop and TK, Ginyu's Body Swap, Devilman's whatever his power is called, and likely other ones.

 

[Kepekley23]

Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

He shattered it when he punched something hard - plus, fictional portrayal issues with that supposedly Absolute-Zero ice.

 

[Kepekley23]

1. Dabura's spit could work on stronger foes.

2. Guldo's time-stop could work on stronger foes

3. Ginyu's Body Change specifically targets stronger foes.

4. Akkuman's Devilmite Beam targets stronger foes.

5. Majin Boo's Candy Beam works on stronger foes.

6. Mafuba works on stronger foes.

7. General Blue's paralysis works on stronger foes

8. Babidi's Majin Spell is literally meant to trap those who dwarf him in power and make them his servants. It's stated that Vegeta is only able to resist it because of his sheer drive to fight Goku (thus giving him a resistance to it)

9. Guldo's Telekinesis worked on the much stronger Gohan and Krillin

 

[Akreious]

Didn't Vegeta somehow melted his absolute zero encased arm?

He shattered it when he punched something hard - plus, fictional portrayal issues with that supposedly Absolute-Zero ice.

I mean... how does one protray Absolute-Zero properly?

 

[Antoniofer]

I minor note about Candy Beam: it works with stronger foes, but if one is way stronger than Buu can move and attack in that state, and in time reform back to normal.

 

[Wokistan]

In a book or something so you don't need to deal with visuals

AZ hasn't even been known to be achieved yet (though we've gotten close). It's a complete cessation of the movement of any matter whatsoever. Matter behaves weirdly when approaching temperatures like this, but it definitely wouldn't just be ice, but colder.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Goku got around Hit's original Time-Skip by predicting Hit's movements, which is something that we acknowledge on Hit's profile as a weakness. In response, Hit improved the Time-Skip, doubling the duration and throwing Goku off. Hit improved the Time-Skip throughout the fight. Goku eventually countered the Time-Skip by going SSBKKx10. He powered up to the point that when Hit tried to Time-Skip, Goku countered again and said:

"It's useless. The level I'm at is now far ahead of your Time-Leap."

Given the fact that Goku said that while using the most powerful form he had up to that point, I think it's logical to think that Goku's level of power defintely played a role in getting around Hit's technique.

As for Jiren, he was heavily supressed when he beat Hit's Cage of Time. Given what Goku did with SSBKKx10, we can safely say that Jiren just released more power to counter Hit. I mean, Jiren was dominating the fight before the Cage of Time. The statement from Vados is more than likely just there to hype Jiren.

 

[Kepekley23]

I minor note about Candy Beam: it works with stronger foes, but if one is way stronger than Buu can move and attack in that state, and in time reform back to normal.

No they can't. Vegito is an exception due to the Potara Earrings' magical properties as noted by the Daizenshuu. He has a resistance to the ability.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Akreious

Like Rukia

 

[Wokistan]

Is predicting movements even a weakness though? THat just seems like a skill feat for Goku.

 

[Antoniofer]

Really? Didn't known about that. So, resistance to magic in general or just attacks from Buu and creatures alike?

 

[Kepekley23]

Really? Didn't known about that. So, resistance to magic in general or just attacks from Buu and creatures alike?

The exact statement is:

• "He has certain special abilities, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does"

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Is predicting movements even a weakness though? THat just seems like a skill feat for Goku.

TBF, Hit's Time-Skip used last only .1 seconds. If you could predict where he was going to be you could basically neutrilize the Time-Skip. Given, how much he's improved and the fact that he can kill in oneshot, that may need to be changed.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Kep, Transmutation, transformation and/or mutation then?

 

[Kepekley23]

Transmutation.

 

[Ryukama]

At a certain point, the onus should be on the Tier 10 who's only ever used his one hax on a completely powerless Tier 10 to prove he could slaughter multiverse busters with it. Not for the multiverse buster to prove he can't be affected by it. NLF and proof by example fallacy is starting to be used more and more hax. Just like what Matt was talking about here.

But even if we're going to discard that and put people like Monster Carrot's abilities on a ridiculously higher level than they've even shown, things like Jiren's time skip and the Hakai blasts have been countered with sheer power. So at the very least more powerful Dragon Ball characters should be able to resist these same techniques. Now said Dragon Ball characters shouldn't be able to resist all of these types of haxes from all verses, but within their own verse they should be able to resist these particular attacks.

 

[Akreious]

What Wokisan said. Goku predicting Hit's movements is a skill feat for Goku; not a weakness on Hit's side

"It's useless. The level I'm at is now far ahead of your Time-Leap."

Given the fact that Goku said that while using the most powerful form he had up to that point, I think it's logical to think that Goku's level of power defintely played a role in getting around Hit's technique. "

Just because someone said something in their final form doesn't suddenly make the enemy's hax weak to them via power. Goku getting around Hit's technique isn't inconsistent either since the properties of Ki in DBS have been getting haxier lately, with Goku later shattering Hit's pocket Dimension and Gogeta's fight with Broly shattering full-on Dimensions.

"As for Jiren, he was heavily supressed when he beat Hit's Cage of Time. Given what Goku did with SSBKKx10, we can safely say that Jiren just released more power to counter Hit. I mean, Jiren was dominating the fight before the Cage of Time. The statement from Vados is more than likely just there to hype Jiren. "

So ignore a canon statement and theory by an immensely wise and intelligent being in-verse? Vados' statement at worst means Jiren has flat resistance to Time Manipulation abilities; if Hit's time abilities had the weakness of "Weak to stronger opponents" then he would've never even attempted using Time Cage on Jiren who he knows is hilariously stronger than him. He even thought he would've been able to take Jiren out with him even though he was getting completely dominated in their fight prior.

 

[Kepekley23]

> At a certain point, the onus should be on the Tier 10 who's only ever used his one hax on a completely powerless Tier 10 to prove he could slaughter multiverse busters with it.

A tier 10 won't be able to affect a 4-D either way according to our standards, so this is a false analogy.

> But even if we're going to discard that and put people like Monster Carrot's abilities on a ridiculously higher level than they've even shown, things like Jiren's time skip and the Hakai blasts have been countered with sheer power.

Hit's Time Skip was never countered via sheer power, casting the manga aside where it is explicitly stated to be a weakness of the technique iself.

Hakai was never countered through sheer power. Freeza resisted it and we list it as much. Unless you're saying Freeza is stronger than a God of Destruction which is, obviously, completely false.

 

[Ryukama]

Except in the previous thread we have people unironically saying Monster Carrot would one touch Zeno and the angels or that Hyssop would freeze them which is why I'm mentioning that.

Jiren was too strong for the Time Skip to work. That was explicitly mentioned. Even if you want to put it as a weakness on Time Skip's part, then Time Skip's weakness makes it unable to work on characters stronger than Jiren.

Frieza literally attributes him countering Hakai to his power. He states "Watch my power" as he powers up to weaken the blast. Also Sidra explicitly gave a small portion of his Hakai energy for the minion to use on Frieza, so as you said, false analogy. Frieza's not stronger than Sidra just because he overpowered a small piece of Sidra's power.

 

[Kepekley23]

Gotta love that 3-A Master Roshi. His redirected Mafuba sealed SSJ Vegeta.

Ultra Instinct 3-A Composite Roshi solos.

 

[Ryukama]

Gotta love that 3-A Master Roshi. His redirected Mafuba sealed SSJ Vegeta.
Ultra Instinct 3-A Composite Roshi solos.

Another false analogy.

Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents. Especially the ones that explicitly do not work on stronger opponents.

Even if Mafuba can work on stronger opponents it shouldn't be NLF'd to working on people ludicrously beyond what he's ever used it on.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm taking it into context with how I'm looking at the situation.

Also, we're talking about Hit's Time-Skip and it's limitations. Cage of Time is a different technique. Time-Skip is Hit freezing everything while he continues to move for a small period of time. Cage of Time is Hit focusing trying to freeze one particular target and requires him to actually strike his target to even pull it off. It's him putting all his effort into holding down a single target.

So, following that logic, Jiren would still retain his resistance to Time Stop but Goku would lose his.

You are free to disagree with me.

 

[GoddessOfWinterr-]

Certain hax. Like hakai is absolutely useless vs stronger opponents. That is proven, actually they don't even have to be stronger, just of similar level. It erases, but only if something is weak enough. Kidna the reason Jiren ***** on belmod and the reason other gods aren't spamming hakai on each other. A technique for weaker mofos. To ignore this would be accepting this https://joke-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Beerus_(Hakai_Edition)

 

[Kepekley23]

> Jiren was too strong for the Time Skip to work. That was explicitly mentioned.

No it wasn't and Jiren clearly had trouble overpowering it.

> Frieza literally attributes him countering Hakai to his power. He states "Watch my power" as he powers up to weaken the blast

This is false. Freeza was initially caught off guard by the Hakai when Sidra's minion lifted his arm to throw it at him. The fact that he had to power up in order to break it means he should have been erased when the blast first him...unless he resisted it, like our profiles say he did.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Just because Mafuba can work on stronger opponents doesn't mean that all DB hax works on stronger opponents.

The burden of proof is on you to prove DB hax doesn't work on stronger opponents, considering the clear and set precedent that it does.

> Especially the ones that explicitly do not work on stronger opponents.

Of which there are none you have shown yet.

> Even if Mafuba can work on stronger opponents it shouldn't be NLF'd to working on people ludicrously beyond what he's ever used it on.

Unless these people are higher-dimensional or have resistance feats then yes, we assume they don't resist it.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched, IMHO. Frieza resisted it and then used his increased control to compress and control it. I mean, we watched Goku do the same thing to one of Beerus' energy blast earlier in the show and Frieza hadn't just increased in power but also skill at that point.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Except in the previous thread we have people unironically saying Monster Carrot would one touch Zeno and the angels...

Monster Carrot COULD transmute stronger beings, but he can't and won't be able to because the characters in Super are like trillions of times stronger and billions of times faster.

Monster Carrot would be atomized by Super Goku flexing his muscles a septillion times in a row before he (Monster Carrot) even had the capability of processing any information at all.

Do you know how many fights against haxxier beings that Dragon Ball characters win because of their AP or Speed advantage? The Dragon Ball character doesn't win because he resists hax via AP, he wins because he is able to kill his opponent before said opponent uses their hax against him. The same is said for these other characters.


Look at any profile with an offensive hax, including that of Hakai from Dragon Ball. Do you know what you see?

"Can ignore or negate durability via hax"

Hax negates durability, it negates physical strength. Having more physical strength is meaningless.

No amount of push-ups is going to allow Goku to resist Charles Xavier's mind hax.

Just because it seems wrong to have such a weaker character have an ability that we don't have proof that God Tiers can resist, doesn't mean you just give out resistances because of that.

 

[Ryukama]

It's explained multiple times that it's Jiren's power and strength that makes the Time Skip unable to work on him. And as you said he was struggling to overpower it. He was using his power to resist it.

Frieza was jokingly pretending to have had the Hakai blast hurt him. And "the fact that Frieza had to power up in order to break it" means he's using his power to counter the attack. So someone with much greater power could do the same thing he's doing. And right when Frieza powers up and condenses the blast down, he says "Allow me to show you the true power of the Golden Frieza. Not "Allow me to show you the magical innate resistance to Hakai blasts unrelated to my power than only I and 2 random saiyans inexplicably have as part of our being". He's only using his power to counteract this blast and its effects on him.

^ These hax in DB, plus Chiaotzu's as you admitted can be overpowered. Of course not all hax in DB gets negged by greater power but these particular ones do. And even the ones that can work on higher powers shouldn't be baselessly assumed to work on guys like Zeno and Grand Priest and shit, which is what one of my issues with the previous thread was since people were saying it should.

Also I'm not even saying Broly resists all existence erasue from weaker opponents. Maybe there's some fictional character with really broken EE that'd smoke Broly's ass despite being weaker than him. But Toppo's in particular doesn't work on Broly. We've seen it get overpowered by a character canonically far weaker than Broly in the series. So that particular technique wouldn't work whether you want to call it some weakness on Toppo's part or a resistance on Broly's part.

 

[Warren_Valion]

The hole thing with Frieza stopping the EoD via sheer power is a little farfetched, IMHO. Frieza resisted it and then used his increased control to compress and control it. I mean, we watched Goku do the same thing to one of Beerus' energy blast earlier in the show and Frieza hadn't just increased in power but also skill at that point.

^This

So much this.

Saying that Frieza used his Ki to resist the energy of Hakai is baseless.

In the scene, Frieza powers up to condense the ball of Ki, not increase his resistance.

Resisting the effects of Hakai are never even brought up in the scene.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frankly, we do NLF hax a whole bunch. I'm not even referring to Dragon Ball. Just in general.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Frankly, we do NLF hax a whole bunch. I'm not even referring to Dragon Ball. Just in general.

Honestly I did mention Whis when I was talking about Guldo's time stop in the previous thread but that was because I wasn't sure if they qualified for being higher dimensional. Something about 4D power but a 3D body or something.