Dragon Ball: Updates (Planet Vegeta Re-Calc, DBS Manga Downgrade)

[Nami_Kami]

It seems that people have a misconseption of the Goku Black arc powerscaling, so I'll just go ahead and shut that down.

Vegeta's SSJ2 form did not surpass his SSJB self in terms of power, that's just lack of understanding on how SSJB worked at the time.

As opposed to the anime version, the manga version establishes that SSJB suffers from SEVERE stamina issues, with Vegeta losing more than 90% of his power by just throwing a single, heavily holding-back punch in his fight against Cabba, to the point SSJG Goku was doing severely better than SSJB Vegeta.

This is why Goku never relied in SSJB vs Hit and delayed it, and only struck using SSJB momentarily at the very last moment before the impact.

Against Black, Vegeta had not learned this short-coming yet, and used SSJB for simple things like crossing large distances and flight, despite Blue being established to get massively nerfed after just as much as a singular punch. This means that he's no longer at maximum capacity when he reaches Black, and is in fact SEVERELY weaker than even his own SSJG state.

During their rematch, Vegeta learned this lesson, and only used SSJB for a split-second so small that even Black couldn't percieve it despite his speed, in order to save up as much SSJB power as possible.

The whole point of Mastered SSJB is Goku being able to maintain Blue at 100% power, which allowed him to fight Merged Zamasu.

So it's less that SSJ2 Vegeta surpassed SSJB Vegeta, and more that back then in the manga SSJB was so bad of a form that it massively nerfed it's users much below even SSJG levels of power, hence Goku chose to fight in that weaker SSJG form than just go Blue. It's not until Merged Zamasu that we saw what a SSJB without stamina issues can do.

Also, Golden Freeza isn't a debunk to that, as Freeza had even more severe stamina issues than SSJB. It'd simply mean he too was getting massively weaker at the same or greater rate. Hit also isn't a debunk, as he verbatim can't maintain his full-power for more than even a single time-skip by his own words. Back then the manga wanted to put more emphasis on stamina and how the characters get around that issue than raw power, hence it gave SSJB such a major weakness. The initial solution was to use it for no more than a split-second to hit the enemy with as much power as possible. The solution Goku found was trapping his Ki in his body vs Merged Zamasu so that he doesn't lose his power.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Against Black, Vegeta had not learned this short-coming yet, and used SSJB for simple things like crossing large distances and flight, despite Blue being established to get massively nerfed after just as much as a singular punch. This means that he's no longer at maximum capacity when he reaches Black, and is in fact SEVERELY weaker than even his own SSJG state.

Your link shows Vegeta eat a senzu bean which would recover all his power instantly. And the distance he traveled to Black was definitely not 'large' by DB standards.

Along with that nowhere is it stated, shown or implied that Black was troubling Vegeta because of Blue growing weaker over time. Instead, Black and Trunks hammer in that Black is growing massively stronger with Zenkai boosts.

And even if we presume the drop from simply flying to Black in that short timeframe was enough to give Vegeta a similar drop as in the tournament, Blue would still have 2-C levels of power given it's stated to be 'less than 10%' and 'weaker than God' rather than being compared to their mortal forms. Which still means Black was surpassing 2-C levels of power with a mortal form before he even achieved Rose. There is no precedent of Blue dropping a person with 2-C power to below 2-C power that I am aware of.

Bringing up the SSG-SSB thing also doesn't do much here because Black was using the same form as Blue. So of course Vegeta would overcome Black if they have similar levels of strength in the same form while Vegeta uses his more efficiently. The most I could give you is that Black was already exhausted by beating Trunks just prior and even that's flawed. Again, the figures we're given are "Less than 10%" and "Weaker than God". The most you can argue is SSR Black was at just under 1/50th his full power.

To visualise this for you:

Pre-Training:

SSG Vegeta = Base 2-C​

SSB Vegeta = 50x 2-C​

SS1 Black > Post-senzu SSB Vegeta = >50x 2-C​

SSR Black = 8,000,000x 2-C (SSG is accepted as as a minimum of 160,000x base)​

Post-Training:

Exhausted SSR Black = 160,000x 2-C (Just under 1/50th his full power)​

SSB Vegeta = >160,000x 2-C​

But then given the fact that CSSB Goku completely matches Merged Zamasu who should at least be stronger than FP Rose Black in base form (Base Vegito, Base Gogeta, Base Kefla, etc) that would still scale CSSB Goku to 8,000,000+ 2-C

CSSB Goku = >8,000,000x 2-C​

SSG Goku = >160,000x 2-C​

Base Goku = >Base 2-C​

​

Conclusion
Regardless of your arguments, Goku and Vegeta would still be 2-C in their base forms by the start of the ToP. And SS1 Black scales to SSB Vegeta. The worst you can reasonably give Vegeta in this arc is going from 50x 2-C in Blue to 160,000x 2-C in Blue.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Your link shows Vegeta eat a senzu bean which would recover all his power instantly. And the distance he traveled to Black was definitely not 'large' by DB standards.

It's a very large distance in the context of how severe SSJB's stamina issues were at the time, given how Vegeta got nerfed below SSJG levels of power by just throwing a single heavily suppressed punch against a fodder enemy.

Along with that nowhere is it stated, shown or implied that Black was troubling Vegeta because of Blue growing weaker over time.

What the f do you mean it wasn't stated? Vegeta vs Black's rematch was ALL ABOUT how Vegeta is winning specifically because he only uses Blue for a very short split-second ( too small for Black to see ) so that he doesn't lose too much power. This quite literally suggests that he was indeed losing power in his first fight against Black.

And even if we presume the drop from simply flying to Black in that short timeframe was enough to give Vegeta a similar drop as in the tournament, Blue would still have 2-C levels of power given it's stated to be 'less than 10%' and 'weaker than God' rather than being compared to their mortal forms. Which still means Black was surpassing 2-C levels of power with a mortal form before he even achieved Rose. There is no precedent of Blue dropping a person with 2-C power to below 2-C power that I am aware of.

No, the drop should be bigger, given how the flight is much bigger than throwing a single very casual punch. And yes, the power drop is indeed massive enough to put him at his mortal form level, given how SSJ Goku was doing a better job against Hit than a nerfed SSJB Vegeta ( Tho with knowledge on time-skip. ).

Bringing up the SSG-SSB thing also doesn't do much here because Black was using the same form as Blue. So of course Vegeta would overcome Black if they have similar levels of strength in the same form while Vegeta uses his more efficiently. The most I could give you is that Black was already exhausted by beating Trunks just prior and even that's flawed. Again, the figures we're given are "Less than 10%" and "Weaker than God". The most you can argue is SSR Black was at just under 1/50th his full power.

Black's form is never said to be exactly the same, it's just said that when a deity surpasses SSJG he unlocks a form with pink hair. The form likely has some differences given how even the Ki and hair color are not the same. So perhaps Black does not suffer from the stamina issue, or at least not as much.

visualise this for you:

Pre-Training:
SSG Vegeta = 2 2-C
SSB Vegeta = 100 2-C
SS1 Black > Post-senzu SSB Vegeta = >100 2-C
SSR Black = 16,000,000 2-C (SSG is accepted as as a minimum of 160,000x base)

You are ignoring how Vegeta throwing a singular, suppressed punch weakened him massively below SSJG levels of power and arguably to SSJ levels of power. So no, SSJ Black has no scaling to a FP SSJB Vegeta. Once again, Blue at the time was an extremely flawed form, and Goku even believed using SSJ and SSJG is better than just outright going Blue because of how massively he'll get nerfed if he used it for more than a split-second.

So no, the conclusion here is that SSJ Black has no scaling to SSJB Vegeta, and nor do base Goku and Vegeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It's a very large distance in the context of how severe SSJB's stamina issues were at the time, given how Vegeta got nerfed below SSJG levels of power by just throwing a single heavily suppressed punch against a fodder enemy.

Yeah nah. You have no quantification or basis for how much Vegeta's stamina drained from flying that distance. You're also ignoring the strain of going Blue in the first place. Whis even says it there. "That form is something you can only use a few times in a single day." Vegeta ate a senzu bean while he was still in Blue. Meaning no drain from entering the form.

What the f do you mean it wasn't stated? Vegeta vs Black's rematch was ALL ABOUT how Vegeta is winning specifically because he only uses Blue for a very short split-second ( too small for Black to see ) so that he doesn't lose too much power. This quite literally suggests that he was indeed losing power in his first fight against Black.

Like I said Black was using Rose in the rematch. In the initial fight he was just using Super Saiyan which has no such problem. Of course Vegeta is going to have an advantage against SSR Black when he's using the same form but more effectively.

Comparatively when Vegeta first fought Black it was stated several times that Black was growing stronger with each battle, that he was getting Zenkai boosts and that his power was exploding against him. Not even once is it stated or implied that Vegeta just lost so much power that Black could beat him. It was Black growing stronger. I outlined all of this in my previous post.

No, the drop should be bigger, given how the flight is much bigger than throwing a single very casual punch. And yes, the power drop is indeed massive enough to put him at his mortal form level, given how SSJ Goku was doing a better job against Hit than a nerfed SSJB Vegeta ( Tho with knowledge on time-skip. ).

Base Goku also fought Hit before he decided to transform. Hit forced Goku to go God (rather than Goku just going Super Saiyan 2) and Hit took numerous attacks from God Goku and kept on fighting. All of this would mean Hit inherently has 2-C power because he can take several attacks from a 2-C character without being defeated and explicitly could not be defeated by Goku's mortal forms.

Black's form is never said to be exactly the same, it's just said that when a deity surpasses SSJG he unlocks a form with pink hair. The form likely has some differences given how even the Ki and hair color are not the same. So perhaps Black does not suffer from the stamina issue, or at least not as much.

This is just you making things up. Zamasu literally states that Black is using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and that he takes on a 'crimson hue' with it. Nowhere is it stated that the form is any different in functionality.

You are ignoring how Vegeta throwing a singular, suppressed punch weakened him massively below SSJG levels of power and arguably to SSJ levels of power. So no, SSJ Black has no scaling to a FP SSJB Vegeta. Once again, Blue at the time was an extremely flawed form, and Goku even believed using SSJ and SSJG is better than just outright going Blue because of how massively he'll get nerfed if he used it for more than a split-second.

Already addressed this above.

So no, the conclusion here is that SSJ Black has no scaling to SSJB Vegeta, and nor do base Goku and Vegeta.

I wholeheartedly disagree. You are making wild leaps in logic with little to no justification for your reasoning.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Yeah nah. You have no quantification or basis for how much Vegeta's stamina drained from flying that distance. You're also ignoring the strain of going Blue in the first place. Whis even says it there. "That form is something you can only use a few times in a single day." Vegeta ate a senzu bean while he was still in Blue. Meaning no drain from entering the form.

The strain comes from wasting energy as a SSJB and SSJB's Ki flowing out of your body. As for your denial, I've already provided a clear scan where Vegeta was nerfed below God level after as much as a singular punch. So I'd just not address any further denial unless you have a debunk.

Comparatively when Vegeta first fought Black it was stated several times that Black was growing stronger with each battle, that he was getting Zenkai boosts and that his power was exploding against him. Not even once is it stated or implied that Vegeta just lost so much power that Black could beat him. It was Black growing stronger. I outlined all of this in my previous post.

Black growing stronger does not take away Vegeta getting weaker. I've already presented the evidence that Vegeta lost energy against Black verbatim, via what was said in their rematch. Your entire argument is just a textbook Argument from Ignorance. "Vegeta wasn't said to have grown much weaker therefore he wasn't". When Vegeta was getting whooped by Hit nobody noted that he got weaker as well, and even Beerus didn't know, despite Vegeta having been nerfed massively below SSJGod level. So this entire point is moot.

All of this would mean Hit inherently has 2-C power because he can take several attacks from a 2-C character without being defeated and explicitly could not be defeated by Goku's mortal forms.

Hit was getting injured by base and SSJ Goku. Funny enough you showed a scan of that. I could argue that God Goku held back not to kill Hit as it's against the rules since God Goku was literally no-diffing Hit until Hit powered-up, and given how Hit's durabillity is established to be much below God level.

This is just you making things up. Zamasu literally states that Black is using Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and that he takes on a 'crimson hue' with it. Nowhere is it stated that the form is any different in functionality

Talk about making things up. Nowhere does he say he went SSGSS. The scan YOU provided says "When you surpass SSJG". Funny enough though, even if I grant you that Rose works the same way, that'd just work against you, since that'd mean the Black that Vegeta was beating too was losing power.

You are ignoring how Vegeta throwing a singular, suppressed punch weakened him massively below SSJG levels of power and arguably to SSJ levels of power. So no, SSJ Black has no scaling to a FP SSJB Vegeta. Once again, Blue at the time was an extremely flawed form, and Goku even believed using SSJ and SSJG is better than just outright going Blue because of how massively he'll get nerfed if he used it for more than a split-second.

Already addressed this above

No, what you did was say "You have no quantifiable measurements of how much weaker he got by flight".

You are making wild leaps in logic with little to no justification for your reasoning.

No, I am using what the manga is verbatim telling us.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The strain comes from wasting energy as a SSJB and SSJB's Ki flowing out of your body. As for your denial, I've already provided a clear scan where Vegeta was nerfed below God level after as much as a singular punch. So I'd just not address any further denial unless you have a debunk.

Again, no quantification for how much stamina that incredibly short travel distance would have consumed Vegeta's energy. And again it's not just from that punch, it's from Vegeta transforming into Blue twice in one day. Still no example of Blue dropping a character's power below 2-C either.

Black growing stronger does not take away Vegeta getting weaker. I've already presented the evidence that Vegeta lost energy against Black verbatim, via what was said in their rematch. Your entire argument is just a textbook Argument from Ignorance. "Vegeta wasn't said to have grown much weaker therefore he wasn't". When Vegeta was getting whooped by Hit nobody noted that he got weaker as well, and even Beerus didn't know, despite Vegeta having been nerfed massively below SSJGod level. So this entire point is moot.

I never said it did. The issue is that there is no quantification for how much weaker Vegeta would have been against Super Saiyan Black. Given Vegeta ate a senzu bean while in Blue and your entire basis for him dramatically nerfing in power is him flying a relatively short distance.

It's strange that you just assumed I was claiming Vegeta wouldn't have grown weaker to some degree. That flies in the face of the rest of my post.

Hit was getting injured by base and SSJ Goku. Funny enough you showed a scan of that. I could argue that God Goku held back not to kill Hit as it's against the rules since God Goku was literally no-diffing Hit until Hit powered-up, and given how Hit's durabillity is established to be much below God level.

I already clarified why Hit would still need to have 2-C power for his fight to even make sense. Goku has access to Super Saiyan 2, a form at least twice as strong as 1. Yet Goku elected to use God. A form that gives him 2-C power when his mortal forms are only 4-B power. Why did Hit take damage from Base Goku? Because he held back. Which is why he can take hits from Super Saiyan Goku who has 50x the AP.

You are essentially arguing Goku chose to go from 4-B power to 2-C power to defeat a 4-B opponent. Have we seen this before? Yeah, one time. When Super Saiyan 3 wasn't enough to win him the fight. What happened? He non-lethally defeated his opponent in a single kick.

So in short there is a precedent for Hit to restrain his power to Goku's level (Base then Super Saiyan then God) which explains why he takes damage from Goku's weaker forms and a precedent for God Goku to one shot 4-B opponents (such as Trunks) which would indicate that Hit has the 2-C stats to avoid being one shot.

Talk about making things up. Nowhere does he say he went SSGSS. The scan YOU provided says "When you surpass SSJG". Funny enough though, even if I grant you that Rose works the same way, that'd just work against you, since that'd mean the Black that Vegeta was beating too was losing power.

You are being disengenuous now. I have explicitly mentioned that Black was likely losing power by using Rose because Rose is just his version of SSGSS. And Zamasu very clearly states in the scan I linked that Black is using SSGSS. I even provided a quick calculation using given information by the characters to state how weak Black could have been from using the form.

No, what you did was say "You have no quantifiable measurements of how much weaker he got by flight".

Which is a valid point by me. I also brought up the senzu bean. As well as Vegeta consuming energy by transforming multiple times.

No, I am using what the manga is verbatim telling us.

I respectfully disagree with your claim that it is 'verbatim' as I believe I have directly contradicted most of your points multiple times.

---

I intend on leaving our argument here. I think there is more than enough information and more than enough scans for staff to examine this and come to their own conclusions.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Buuuump, just need one staff member (And another thing, DBS Manga Goku's keys need a major rework it's a mess, maybe the same with Vegeta

 

[Nami_Kami]

Again, no quantification for how much stamina that incredibly short travel distance would have consumed Vegeta's energy. And again it's not just from that punch, it's from Vegeta transforming into Blue twice in one day. Still no example of Blue dropping a character's power below 2-C either.

No, the simple act going Blue itself is not what decreases their power. That's something that's never been said in the show that you just made-up. We know that's false verbatim as Goku was said to be at 100% capacity against Merged Zamasu, showing that transforming by itself is not reducing their power. What reduces their power is verbatim them wasting energy AFTER transforming, in the form of moving for more than an extremely short split-second that even Black can't percieve and their Ki flowing out of their bodies. So yes, that punch weakened Vegeta much below God level, and arguably to SSJ levels. Denying what's verbatim said within the show using headcanon is all you've done.

Black growing stronger does not take away Vegeta getting weaker. I've already presented the evidence that Vegeta lost energy against Black verbatim, via what was said in their rematch. Your entire argument is just a textbook Argument from Ignorance. "Vegeta wasn't said to have grown much weaker therefore he wasn't". When Vegeta was getting whooped by Hit nobody noted that he got weaker as well, and even Beerus didn't know, despite Vegeta having been nerfed massively below SSJGod level. So this entire point is moot.

I never said it did. The issue is that there is no quantification for how much weaker Vegeta would have been against Super Saiyan Black. Given Vegeta ate a senzu bean while in Blue and your entire basis for him dramatically nerfing in power is him flying a relatively short distance.

I've already provided evidence of a singular punch decreasing Vegeta's power into mortal levels of power. This alone puts to question your entire Goku Black scale, since you have NOTHING to establish that Vegeta was at God level after losing power, which he verbatim did. Also, you quite literally claimed that SSJG Vegeta was a 2, SSJB Vegeta was a 100, and therefore SSJ2 Black would also be a 100. So you did quite literally argue he didn't get weaker until now.

I already clarified why Hit would still need to have 2-C power for his fight to even make sense.

No you didn't. You simply said "He took attacks from SSJG Goku, and I refuted that argument on the very statement you replied to:

Goku has access to Super Saiyan 2, a form at least twice as strong as 1. Yet Goku elected to use God. A form that gives him 2-C power when his mortal forms are only 4-B power.

This is an atrocious argument. This is like arguing Krillin is above SSJG because Goku decided to go from SSJ straight to SSJB against him. Goku choosing to go God does not take away from the fact that he literally no-diffed Hit right afterwards, nor the fact that Hit was getting injured by base, with Beerus even noting that SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit, but he simply had a powerful hax that carried him. Note that this'd also be an acknowledgement of just how massive SSJB Vegeta's nerf ( by throwing a punch ) was given how Hit did this to Vegeta. I could argue the reason he went God instead of 2 is because Hit's hax is verbatim using less stamina than Goku fighting with Goku already being low on stamina, hence he believed an X2 boost wasn't gonna be safe against a literal time-hax.

You are essentially arguing Goku chose to go from 4-B power to 2-C power to defeat a 4-B opponent

That 4-B form is verbatim stronger than Hit. Lol. Goku simply chose to be safe against a time-hax. That simple.

Why did Hit take damage from Base Goku? Because he held back. Which is why he can take hits from Super Saiyan Goku who has 50x the AP.

No, SSJ Goku never got a single direct attack on Hit. And Hit verbatim didn't power-up until after Goku went God and no-diffed him. Hit prior to unleashing his power was indeed 4-B. The same Hit no-diffed Vegeta.

Hit has the 2-C stats to avoid being one shot.

No, that just means that Goku was holding back and was being careful not to possibly kill Hit due to the rules of the tournament, since we are verbatim told that Hit was below a 4-B Goku prior to the very end of the fight where he unleashes his real power.

I even provided a quick calculation using given information by the characters to state how weak Black could have been from using the form

I already debunked those. You ignored verbatim evidence and assumed Vegeta's power didn't drop in those calcs.

I have directly contradicted most of your points multiple times.

You used headcanon to deny what the show tells us. Notice how I have scans on top of scans while you have shown next to nothing. I wonder why that is.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Due to this I suggest the following:
U6 arc Hit should be given 2 keys. 1 for his regular state and 1 for his aura-unleashed state, since regular Hit is verbatim below SSJ Goku ( 4-B ). It should be noted that the later state can only be used for only a singular time-skip before it's power drops severely due to stamina issues as noted by Hit himself in the weakness key.

It should also be noted that the version of SSJB Vegeta he beat was heavily weakened below God level, to the point SSJ Goku was outperforming him.

As for the Goku Black arc, SSJ2 Black should be given a 4-B key, as the Vegeta he beat was likewise weakened due to that same stamina weakness as established in their rematch, which'd imply he was weakened below God level much like in the U6 arc.

Goku and Vegeta in their mortals forms should be given a 4-B key, especially since Black notes that Vegeta's base form power does not seem any different from when they fought last time, which suggests that Vegeta simply worked to overcame Blue's stamina issues with his training as opposed to increasing his base form power.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that Nami Kami has some good suggestions in his most recent post.

Goku Black noting that Vegeta doesn't seem that different in their rematch really does lean against the idea that Vegeta got millions of times stronger than he was in their previous fight.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Not sure why this base 2c argument is being snuck back on when it was dealt pretty thoroughly in the actual downgrade thread

Ssj zamasu beat up ssj Vegeta, whether you believe he lost 90% power from crossing a few meters (as ridiculous as that is) is irrelevant, no amount of finite reduction is taking him down from 2c, and at the very least ssj black was stronger than SSG Vegeta at that point


In their rematch Vegeta manages to overwhelm SSR Black by defending in SSG and attacking in an instant in SSB, the fact that Vegeta was close enough to SSR Black to be able to defend in SSG, despite black stacking and SSB level worth of power boost on top his already 2c base means Vegeta and Goku were 2c in base

I am going to leave it here as I have no interest in a back and forth


But it was clear that the Saiyans got a huge boost in the second half of the black saga,

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, the simple act going Blue itself is not what decreases their power. That's something that's never been said in the show that you just made-up.

Nah. Whis explicitly states that Blue is not a form you can use multiple times a day. What does 'use' mean in this context? That's right. Transformation. And has transformation been strenuous in the past? Yes. Look up Super Saiyan 3. A form that isn't even remotely as straining or powerful as Blue.

We know that's false verbatim as Goku was said to be at 100% capacity against Merged Zamasu, showing that transforming by itself is not reducing their power.

Trunks healed Goku completely right before he transformed. And Goku then turned Blue and immediately sealed his power inside. The act of transforming is what releases the Ki and Goku circumvented that by sealing the Ki inside of his body when he transforms. You see this as his aura vanishes. If you somehow don't get it. The act of transformation is what leaks the Ki in the first place. Hence the aura. When Goku completes Blue the aura vanishes because he seals the Ki inside of his body. That's the entire point.

Goku was explicitly at full power when he transformed and he sealed his Ki inside of his body immediately after he transformed.

What reduces their power is verbatim them wasting energy AFTER transforming, in the form of moving for more than an extremely short split-second that even Black can't percieve and their Ki flowing out of their bodies. So yes, that punch weakened Vegeta much below God level, and arguably to SSJ levels. Denying what's verbatim said within the show using headcanon is all you've done.

The first scan is nonsense. Vegeta transforming faster than Black can perceive is not any basis for how quickly Blue lowers his power. And seriously can we address the elephant in the room? What is even the point of Blue if a single 4-B punch (Yes, 4-B. Vegeta knocked SS Cabba out. Which would be him using only 4-B power.) drops the form down to Super Saiyan levels then why the hell wouldn't they just use Super Saiyan 2? Think carefully.

I've already provided evidence of a singular punch decreasing Vegeta's power into mortal levels of power. This alone puts to question your entire Goku Black scale, since you have NOTHING to establish that Vegeta was at God level after losing power, which he verbatim did. Also, you quite literally claimed that SSJG Vegeta was a 2, SSJB Vegeta was a 100, and therefore SSJ2 Black would also be a 100. So you did quite literally argue he didn't get weaker until now.

Bruh stop being disingenuous. I've repeatedly told you that Vegeta dropping to such low powers just by traveling to Black is nonsensical. This entire debate is about SS Black scaling to Blue Vegeta. Blue Vegeta who was at full power and immediately trading blows with Black. That's 2-C power. That SS Black is explicitly depicted as clashing evenly with.

Your ENTIRE argument is that Vegeta dropped to 4-B power by traveling a short distance to fight a 4-B opponent when he could have just dropped down to Super Saiyan 2 or even just used Super Saiyan God and easily beat him.

No you didn't. You simply said "He took attacks from SSJG Goku, and I refuted that argument on the very statement you replied to:

Nah. I straight up referred to Goku opting to use God over Super Saiyan 2. And I also showed pretty clearly that God Goku can easily one shot 4-B opponents in non-lethal fights. Goku had no reason to go God in that fight if Hit were only 4-B.

This is an atrocious argument. This is like arguing Krillin is above SSJG because Goku decided to go from SSJ straight to SSJB against him. Goku choosing to go God does not take away from the fact that he literally no-diffed Hit right afterwards, nor the fact that Hit was getting injured by base, with Beerus even noting that SSJ Goku was stronger than Hit, but he simply had a powerful hax that carried him. Note that this'd also be an acknowledgement of just how massive SSJB Vegeta's nerf ( by throwing a punch ) was given how Hit did this to Vegeta. I could argue the reason he went God instead of 2 is because Hit's hax is verbatim using less stamina than Goku fighting with Goku already being low on stamina, hence he believed an X2 boost wasn't gonna be safe against a literal time-hax.

Oh real funny using the DBS anime as an example in scaling the manga. Two completely different continuities. And also a really bad take too given it's explained in-universe that Goku was testing Krillin's courage by doing so. Why would Goku opt to use God against Hit for no reason? Vegeta used Blue against Cabba to inspire him. Goku chose to stick to Frost's level of power and never went God. Nor did he use God on Botamo. So why did Goku choose to use God against Hit? C'mon. And trying to chalk it up to Hit 's 'powerful hax' when Base Goku was predicting and countering it is just ridiculous.

And no. Super Saiyan 2 is not a strenuous form. If Goku needed more power to beat Hit he would have gone 2 and would have one shot him. He could have done that at any moment he wanted to. What did he opt to? That's right. Go God. Are you going to argue Goku's God form dropped to 4-B levels of power by fighting Hit in Super Saiyan? Is that where you're headed?

That 4-B form is verbatim stronger than Hit. Lol. Goku simply chose to be safe against a time-hax. That simple.

I don't think you know what 'verbatim' means. Beerus states "Goku's power is supposed to be greater than this!" then Goku turns God. Do you really not understand what Toyotaro is expressing to the audience here?

No, SSJ Goku never got a single direct attack on Hit. And Hit verbatim didn't power-up until after Goku went God and no-diffed him. Hit prior to unleashing his power was indeed 4-B. The same Hit no-diffed Vegeta.

Correction. Hit did not use his TRUE power or go FULL power until Goku went God. And again you are arguing SSG Goku couldn't knock out a 4-B opponent instantly. When he does exactly that to Trunks. Trunks who was equal to Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

No, that just means that Goku was holding back and was being careful not to possibly kill Hit due to the rules of the tournament, since we are verbatim told that Hit was below a 4-B Goku prior to the very end of the fight where he unleashes his real power.

No and no.

I already debunked those. You ignored verbatim evidence and assumed Vegeta's power didn't drop in those calcs.

You did not. And I did not ignore a single thing.

You used headcanon to deny what the show tells us. Notice how I have scans on top of scans while you have shown next to nothing. I wonder why that is.

Nonsense. You have repeatedly come up with explanations to justify your takes like Black's Rose form mechanically functioning completely differently or claiming Vegeta dropped from 2-C to 4-B power by flying a short distance. Which is all unsubstantiated and purely from your interpretation of the story with little to no actual evidence to justify it.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I'm in agreement with Cryo, many of Nami_kami's arguments sound very disingenuous

 

[Nami_Kami]

Whis explicitly states that Blue is not a form you can use multiple times a day. What does 'use' mean in this context? That's right. Transformation.

You're quite literally denying verbatim statements using headcanon you've shown nothing to back up. Once again, Goku was verbatim at 100% capacity against Merged Zamasu, despite having transformed prior, debunking the notion that the act of transforming itself weakens them. Whether Trunks healed him BEFORE he transformed is not relevant. Vegeta avoided losing power by transforming into Blue for no more than just a split-second too small for Black to see. 'Usage' would simply mean the actions they perform while using Blue. Naturally if the form drains their stamina significantly they can only use it a few times.

Look up Super Saiyan 3. A form that isn't even remotely as straining or powerful as Blue.

3 is far less straining than Blue was in the manga until they mastered it. So this is blatantly false. Back it up or drop the point.

The act of transformation is what leaks the Ki in the first place. Hence the aura. When Goku completes Blue the aura vanishes because he seals the Ki inside of his body. That's the entire point.

The aura being unleashed isn't what weakens them directly, since Vegeta notes that they can still use their full-power after transformation ( And in turn after their aura is unleashed. ), but only for a very short split-second. This is also why Vegeta could continuously switch from God to Blue without losing power despite each transformation unleashing his aura. This means that their power drops as a result to using it for more than a split-second and as a result of the energy they lose while acting in SSJB.

And seriously can we address the elephant in the room? What is even the point of Blue if a single 4-B punch (Yes, 4-B. Vegeta knocked SS Cabba out. Which would be him using only 4-B power.) drops the form down to Super Saiyan levels then why the hell wouldn't they just use Super Saiyan 2? Think carefully

Vegeta evidently did not know just how severe SSJB's stamina issues were at the time, and he also wanted to showcase the form to Cabba to mentor him and motivate him. We already know that Vegeta's usage of Blue heavily weakened him below God level as verbatim said in the manga, so I don't see your point. Vegeta did something stupid. It's that simple. It doesn't take away from the VERBATIM fact that it weakened him.

Funny enough you later acknowledge that he went Blue to inspire Cabba yourself. And yet you attempt to call me disingenuous. Lol:

I also showed pretty clearly that God Goku can easily one shot 4-B opponents in non-lethal fights. Goku had no reason to go God in that fight if Hit were only 4-B.

No, Goku did not one-shot Trunks, as literally on the very next panel Trunks is seen being completely fine, states so himself, and doesn't have a single scratch on him. So no, you've not shown 2-C Goku being able to one-shot a 4-B character in a non-lethal way.

Why would Goku opt to use God against Hit for no reason?

Why are you asking Loaded Questions when I've already given the reason for why Goku used God? Once again, quite disingenuous.
Your entire argument is simply that SSJ2 wouldn't be enough to make up for the literal time-hax he was up against, therefore Hit is SSJG level. No, being potentially above SSJ2 level WITH HAX is not proof you reach or near God level.

And trying to chalk it up to Hit 's 'powerful hax' when Base Goku was predicting and countering it is just ridiculous.

Goku is verbatim losing specifically due to the time-skip while Goku is also said to be stronger as just a SSJ, and Goku is verbatim losing a ton of stamina to fight in a way to counter the time-skip. Stop denying what the manga verbatim is telling using opinions and headcanons.

And no. Super Saiyan 2 is not a strenuous form.

It's more strenuous than SSJ, and in SSJ alone Goku was already slowing down and losing breath SPECIFICALLY DUE TO THE TIME-SKIP HAX EXHAUSTING GOKU AS STATED.

If Goku needed more power to beat Hit he would have gone 2 and would have one shot him.

That's presuming that an x2 boost will be enough for an already tired-out, weakened and slowed-down Goku to get a good Hit on someone with a time-hax and one-shot him. Which you've done nothing to back up.

Are you going to argue Goku's God form dropped to 4-B levels of power by fighting Hit in Super Saiyan? Is that where you're headed?

No, I argued Goku held back not to kill Hit, since Hit is verbatim weaker than SSJ Goku. Maybe stop Strawmanning and using headcanon every single response you get.

Beerus states "Goku's power is supposed to be greater than this!" then Goku turns God.

No, Beerus is not referencing Goku's God forms. The statement quite clearly indicates that SSJ Goku was physically stronger than Hit, with Beerus implying that the time-skip is the reason for Goku losing, calling it cheating.

Correction. And again you are arguing SSG Goku couldn't knock out a 4-B opponent instantly.

No, I am arguing he's being careful not to severely injure or kill Hit, while also no-diffing him.

No and no.

If you have no argumentation don't speak.

claiming Vegeta dropped from 2-C to 4-B power by flying a short distance. Which is all unsubstantiated and purely from your interpretation of the story with little to no actual evidence to justify it.

I've already proven Vegeta shortly using Blue to punch Cabba weakened him massively below God level to the point SSJ Goku was outperforming him. To say I've shown no evidence is blatantly being dishonest, given how EVERYTHING you say is a headcanon and goes directly against what's SAID in the show. You've provided no evidence behind any claim you've made. In the last 2 responses you've presented no more than 2 scans both of which don't justify the claim you're trying to make.

Furthermore, if I've truly given no evidence, I don't see why you backed down on this statement of yours:

I intend on leaving our argument here. I think there is more than enough information and more than enough scans for staff to examine this and come to their own conclusions.

Seems like you're not even sure in yourself on this one.

At the end of the day your entire Black scale is invalid. And no, using the manga is not disingenuous simply because it doesn't fit your arguments. Do not attack my character.

 

[RenderGK]

Nami's entire argument is too false, the echo that Vegeta can use between 10 percent of SSJ Blue's power vs Hit, after using Blue with Kabba, indicates that Blue does not go down to levels lower than 2C, since despite going down to that amount he is still more powerful than SSJGod, which is 2C. It's that simple.

 

[Damage3245]

Nami's entire argument is too false, the echo that Vegeta can use between 10 percent of SSJ Blue's power vs Hit, after using Blue with Kabba, indicates that Blue does not go down to levels lower than 2C, since despite going down to that amount he is still more powerful than SSJGod, which is 2C. It's that simple.

I don't think we can use the ratings the characters currently have as a counter-argument here because the ratings we assign to the characters (i.e. 4-B, 2-C, etc) are products of our own system and not inherent to Dragon Ball.

Instead of focusing on specific values, we should just be checking to see which version of the scaling chain is most consistent with the series and backed up by the most evidence.

Also, Vegeta wasn't using 10% of SSJ Blue's power; it was stated that he wasn't even able to use 10% of it.

 

[RenderGK]

I don't think we can use the ratings the characters currently have as a counter-argument here because the ratings we assign to the characters (i.e. 4-B, 2-C, etc) are products of our own system and not inherent to Dragon Ball.

Instead of focusing on specific values, we should just be checking to see which version of the scaling chain is most consistent with the series and backed up by the most evidence.

Also, Vegeta wasn't using 10% of SSJ Blue's power; it was stated that he wasn't even able to use 10% of it.

That's why I mentioned between 10 percent, not exactly 10 percent, and it is supported that the weakened blue falls to that margin, and no matter what position of that margin it is in, this percentage would still be stronger than the ssjgod, which is widely superior to any mortal form.

 

[Nami_Kami]

That's why I mentioned between 10 percent, not exactly 10 percent, and it is supported that the weakened blue falls to that margin, and no matter what position of that margin it is in, this percentage would still be stronger than the ssjgod, which is widely superior to any mortal form.

And yet Vegeta was said to be below God level. This just means that Whis' statement isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

 

[RenderGK]

And yet Vegeta was said to be below God level. This just means that Whis' statement isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

Below the power of Goku God, not below his own Vegeta SSJGod, even there he mentions that for that reason Goku SSJGod does it better than Vegeta. And in terms of reliability, Whis is his teacher and the most reliable one there.

 

[Omegabronic]

Below the power of Goku God, not below his own Vegeta SSJGod, even there he mentions that for that reason Goku SSJGod does it better than Vegeta. And in terms of reliability, Whis is his teacher and the most reliable one there.

huh, Base Goku and Base Vegeta are comparable, if not equal, if they are using the same transformation, then they still be equal, if not equal, thus.........the argument stays the same

 

[Nami_Kami]

Below the power of Goku God, not below his own Vegeta SSJGod, even there he mentions that for that reason Goku SSJGod does it better than Vegeta. And in terms of reliability, Whis is his teacher and the most reliable one there.

Vegeta and Goku are established to be relative, with SSJ Goku momentarily getting worried about Frost's attack and being pushed back by it at one point, while Vegeta casually rag-dolled Frost. Goku's God form should by all means be relative to Vegeta's God form.

And the fact that a weakened SSJB Vegeta was getting outperformed by a SSJ Goku alone kills your entire argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Vegeta and Goku are established to be relative, with SSJ Goku momentarily getting worried about Frost's attack and being pushed back by it at one point, while Vegeta casually rag-dolled Frost. Goku's God form should by all means be relative to Vegeta's God form.

And the fact that a weakened SSJB Vegeta was getting outperformed by a SSJ Goku alone kills your entire argument.

Yeah, I don't see how this can be refuted. We can see that SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta are comparable by their performance against Frost.

SSJ Blue Vegeta was just heavily weakened when fighting against a casual Hit.

So Hit should have separate keys, or ratings, for fighting casually and being powered up.

 

[RenderGK]

Vegeta and Goku are established to be relative, with SSJ Goku momentarily getting worried about Frost's attack and being pushed back by it at one point, while Vegeta casually rag-dolled Frost. Goku's God form should by all means be relative to Vegeta's God form.

And the fact that a weakened SSJB Vegeta was getting outperformed by a SSJ Goku alone kills your entire argument.

Well, in base feats Goku and Vegeta prove the opposite, even SSJ Goku shows better vs Hit,

They can be relative but not equal clearly, and it is shown in feats.

With your argument then, Vegeta should use SSJGod to fight since the blue would be below his SSJ2 or base, or even Vegeta's God would be around those levels, that is a very weak argument, when by whis Vegeta blue is around 10 percent of that level, and Vegeta still chooses to use the blue.

That Goku SSJGod is between Vegeta's level of his SSJBlue which is less than 10 percent, is a clear distinction that Goku is stronger than Vegeta by a certain margin

 

[Damage3245]

Goku also states that if Vegeta had saved his energy, then he could've beaten Hit:

So the energy drain is so significant that it could turn Vegeta from having a solid chance of victory to him being ragdolled effortlessly by Hit.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Well, in base feats Goku and Vegeta prove the opposite, even SSJ Goku shows better vs Hit,

SSJ Goku doing better than SSJB Vegeta just speaks for how weakened Vegeta was against Hit. Prior to Vegeta being weakened they're shown being relative. Also if they're relative as SSJs they'd be relative in base too.

They can be relative but not equal clearly, and it is shown in feats.

Okay, if they are relative in power your point still doesn't hold up. And them being relative is acknowledged on this wiki anyway.

With your argument then, Vegeta should use SSJGod to fight since the blue would be below his SSJ2 or base, or even Vegeta's God would be around those levels, that is a very weak argument, when by whis Vegeta blue is around 10 percent of that level, and Vegeta still chooses to use the blue.

There is no indication that Vegeta knew how to go God back then. But even if he did, yes. He should have used God, since the God form was rag-dolling Hit anyway. He should have beaten up Cabba without any forms, or bare minimum use God form. He didn't. It could be argued back then he didn't know how severe Blue's stamina issues were. Even Beerus didn't. Either that or he just blundered badly. Even Goku questions why he didn't preserve his stamina.

Goku also states that if Vegeta had saved his energy, then he could've beaten Hit:

So the energy drain is so significant that it could turn Vegeta from having a solid chance of victory to him being ragdolled effortlessly by Hit.

Yeah, this too.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

3 is far less straining than Blue was in the manga until they mastered it. So this is blatantly false. Back it up or drop the point.

Where did I claim that Super Saiyan 3 isn't far less straining than Blue? That's even my entire point of the comparison:

"Yes. Look up Super Saiyan 3. A form that isn't even remotely as straining or powerful as Blue."​

​

My point is that 3 is depicted as taking a lot of energy to even transform into. When it's a far less powerful and straining form. Meaning Blue would inherently take more energy to transform into.

The aura being unleashed isn't what weakens them directly, since Vegeta notes that they can still use their full-power after transformation ( And in turn after their aura is unleashed. ), but only for a very short split-second.

Again my point has never been that Blue doesn't grow weaker over time. My point is that transforming into the form already takes energy to do and that you have no basis for Vegeta flying to Black being enough to drop him from 2-C power to 4-B power.

Vegeta evidently did not know just how severe SSJB's stamina issues were at the time, and he also wanted to showcase the form to Cabba to mentor him and motivate him. We already know that Vegeta's usage of Blue heavily weakened him below God level as verbatim said in the manga, so I don't see your point. Vegeta did something stupid. It's that simple. It doesn't take away from the VERBATIM fact that it weakened him.

Vegeta watched Goku use God against Hit and even states Goku used God to save energy for Blue. He is well aware of Blue's weakness. Goku even praises and admires Vegeta for how well he thought through Blue's weakness and overcame it. By evolving the same technique Goku used against Hit.

Claiming Vegeta somehow 'did not know' about Blue's stamina issues is an incredibly loaded statement.

Funny enough you later acknowledge that he went Blue to inspire Cabba yourself. And yet you attempt to call me disingenuous. Lol:

What is even your point here? You're implying I'm being disingenuous. How? Vegeta used Blue to motivate Cabba. How does this relate to any of your points?

No, Goku did not one-shot Trunks, as literally on the very next panel Trunks is seen being completely fine, states so himself, and doesn't have a single scratch on him. So no, you've not shown 2-C Goku being able to one-shot a 4-B character in a non-lethal way.

You clearly don't think you're being disingenuous then you take Goku one shotting Trunks and claim he somehow didn't. While completely ignoring the entire rest of my argument.

Goku knocked Trunks out of SS2. The match ended with that. It was a non-lethal encounter. Are you expecting Goku to kill Trunks? Do you expect him to knock him into a coma? Why couldn't Goku just go God and knock Hit out of the arena?

Why are you asking Loaded Questions when I've already given the reason for why Goku used God? Once again, quite disingenuous.
Your entire argument is simply that SSJ2 wouldn't be enough to make up for the literal time-hax he was up against, therefore Hit is SSJG level. No, being potentially above SSJ2 level WITH HAX is not proof you reach or near God level.

I don't even know what you are arguing here. When did I say SS2 wouldn't be enough to deal with Hit's time hax? I explicitly said BASE Goku could contend with it. So if he went Super Saiyan 2 (double the power, double the speed) he should have been able to beat Hit just fine. Instead he went God. And still couldn't beat Hit quickly. When the entire point of transforming was Hit beating him with attrition.

It's more strenuous than SSJ, and in SSJ alone Goku was already slowing down and losing breath SPECIFICALLY DUE TO THE TIME-SKIP HAX EXHAUSTING GOKU AS STATED.

And again. Goku didn't just beat Hit with 2x the power and speed by going 2. Which would make up for any additional strain (which SS2 is never stated to have mind you) with him quickly beating Hit.

And hey. God is accepted as at least 160,000x Base. That's 3,200x Super Saiyan 1. You're arguing God Goku with up to 3,200x the power couldn't instantly beat a 4-B character (Like he did against Trunks) because...just because.

That's presuming that an x2 boost will be enough for an already tired-out, weakened and slowed-down Goku to get a good Hit on someone with a time-hax and one-shot him. Which you've done nothing to back up.

Are you seriously arguing right now that a 2x boost wouldn't be sufficient when your own argument is that SS1 is comparable to Hit? Really?

No, I argued Goku held back not to kill Hit, since Hit is verbatim weaker than SSJ Goku. Maybe stop Strawmanning and using headcanon every single response you get.

Nope. You read my post. I'm talking about Goku using the power of God to instantly beat Hit. Like he did with Trunks. Trunks who is Super Saiyan 3-level. Far stronger than Super Saiyan 1-level.

No, Beerus is not referencing Goku's God forms. The statement quite clearly indicates that SSJ Goku was physically stronger than Hit, with Beerus implying that the time-skip is the reason for Goku losing, calling it cheating.

You keep saying I'm using 'headcanon' then you make things up about character statements. Because you somehow read a page where Beerus goes "Goku should be stronger than this!" then Goku goes God and you somehow interpret that as "Beerus must have been talking about Super Saiyan 1!"

No, I am arguing he's being careful not to severely injure or kill Hit, while also no-diffing him.

Oh? Like Trunks? Oh wait...Goku instantly beat Trunks. Without severely injuring or killing him.

I've already proven Vegeta shortly using Blue to punch Cabba weakened him massively below God level to the point SSJ Goku was outperforming him. To say I've shown no evidence is blatantly being dishonest, given how EVERYTHING you say is a headcanon and goes directly against what's SAID in the show. You've provided no evidence behind any claim you've made. In the last 2 responses you've presented no more than 2 scans both of which don't justify the claim you're trying to make.

Your entire argument is that Vegeta Blue went from 2-C power to 4-B power by flying a short distance. To claim SS Black doesn't have 2-C scaling. Because you think Vegeta is just such a giant moron that he wouldn't realise he could just use a more stable form. Even though he straight up saw Goku do that to beat an opponent he lost to and even states that Goku used God to conserve energy.

Vegeta can sense Black's Ki. Black knocked him down. Vegeta ate a senzu bean. Vegeta opted to keep using Blue to fight Black after his Zenkai. Vegeta is shown to struggle badly against Black. Trunks and Black repeatedly state it's because Black is growing stronger with Zenkai boosts. Your take is that Vegeta went from 2-C to 4-B by flying a short distance.

Furthermore, if I've truly given no evidence, I don't see why you backed down on this statement of yours:
Seems like you're not even sure in yourself on this one.

That's an absolutely ridiculous and childish take. All I said is that we both provided our scans and our arguments and that should be fine to leave our argument at. You chose to continue the argument and so I responded. Why else would you choose to respond back to me? Absurd.

Everything else I didn't respond to is because it's just retreading.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, I don't see how this can be refuted. We can see that SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta are comparable by their performance against Frost.

SSJ Blue Vegeta was just heavily weakened when fighting against a casual Hit.

So Hit should have separate keys, or ratings, for fighting casually and being powered up.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Hit having two different keys to distinguish his normal and Full Power states. Although I still believe Hit is 2-C before he even goes full power via fighting God Goku.

 

[RenderGK]

SSJ Goku doing better than SSJB Vegeta just speaks for how weakened Vegeta was against Hit. Prior to Vegeta being weakened they're shown being relative. Also if they're relative as SSJs they'd be relative in base too.

Okay, I'll answer, maybe that's all for now, talk more about Goku since with the context we know that Vegeta weakened by 10 percent of his blue, there's nothing more to say than that percentage is not at the level of Vegeta's SSJ form.

Okay, if they are relative in power your point still doesn't hold up. And them being relative is acknowledged on this wiki anyway.

Well, let's talk about what this wiki says, it is recognized that Vegeta's weakened blue is 2C, and in the series too, so there is no fall to 4B

There is no indication that Vegeta knew how to go God back then. But even if he did, yes. He should have used God, since the God form was rag-dolling Hit anyway. He should have beaten up Cabba without any forms, or bare minimum use God form. He didn't. It could be argued back then he didn't know how severe Blue's stamina issues were. Even Beerus didn't. Either that or he just blundered badly. Even Goku questions why he didn't preserve his stamina.

We have an indication, when the SSJ blue is the SSJ of the SSJGod, so for obvious reasons he should know how to do it, especially when he has trained with Goku and Whis.

about the reduction, how would you not know they have been training for 3 years in the rosat, it is more of a mistake by vegueta to underestimate his opponent, for that reason goku chooses to go to lower forms than to use the blue to save energy, of course using the ssjblue 100 at less than 10 percent of your power is a significant wear and tear, but it is not a wear and tear that makes it inferior to its ssj forms.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, let's talk about what this wiki says, it is recognized that Vegeta's weakened blue is 2C, and in the series too, so there is no fall to 4B

The wiki is a bit oudated, hence why this thread exists at all, to change the values that the DBS manga characters scale to.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Meaning Blue would inherently take more energy to transform into.​

This entire argument is your own headcanon that you've shown ZERO scans to support, while also ignoring the direct statements of characters not losing power by the act of transforming into Blue alone.

My point is that transforming into the form already takes energy to do

I've already debunked that using direct scans above. Matter of fact here is another one.

you have no basis for Vegeta flying to Black being enough to drop him from 2-C power to 4-B power.

A singular punch and some talking is much less action and it weakened SSJB Vegeta to SSJ Goku level, so yes. Black also comments that Vegeta's power has not changed at all, which means he went from getting beaten by SSJ2 to beating Rose Black due to stamina preservation, not due to his base getting stronger. The show > your denial.

states Goku used God to save energy for Blue

All forms use energy. Him knowing Blue uses energy does not indicate he knew EXACTLY how severe it was at the time.

He is well aware of Blue's weakness.

Vegeta in a future arc and after losing to Black being aware of how severe Blue's stamina issues are does not mean he was aware of it at the time of fighting Hit. This is a False Equivalency. Goku understood this and only used Blue for a split-second, avoiding using it. Vegeta used Blue without preserving if on many occasions, and didn't learn that he'd have to preserve the form until he lost to Black.

No, Goku did not one-shot Trunks, as literally on the very next panel Trunks is seen being completely fine, states so himself, and doesn't have a single scratch on him.

You clearly don't think you're being disingenuous then you take Goku one shotting Trunks and claim he somehow didn't.

I show a scan of Trunks clearly not-being one-shot and being in perfect condition after the strike, you keep yapping about how it was a one-shot. Nothing to say here.

Goku knocked Trunks out of SS2. The match ended with that.

Making Trunks revert from SSJ2 to base is not relevant to Trunks not suffering any damage and Trunks himself saying he's completely fine after the strike, having no issue moving right afterwards. Hit doesn't have a transformation that Goku can reverse for this to matter. Much like Trunks he'd still be able to move and will be fine, undamaged after a similar strike.

The "match ending" is not because Trunks couldn't continue, as he clearly would be able to if he wanted to. It's because they were just sparring as a test to their powers, unlike Goku and Hit who were in a tournament and had something to fight for. Hit wouldn't stop fighting just because Goku pushed him a few feet without putting any damage on him like he did with Trunks. So this entire argument is extremely dishonest.

So if he went Super Saiyan 2 (double the power, double the speed) he should have been able to beat Hit just fine.

I've already told you to prove that Goku would be able to do it with just an x2 boost. Keep up.

It's more strenuous than SSJ, and in SSJ alone Goku was already slowing down and losing breath SPECIFICALLY DUE TO THE TIME-SKIP HAX EXHAUSTING GOKU AS STATED.

And again. Goku didn't just beat Hit with 2x the power and speed by going 2. Which would make up for any additional strain (which SS2 is never stated to have mind you) with him quickly beating Hit.

No, since the very scan you respond to already shows Goku was already weakened into SSJ, and a non-weakened SSJ Goku was already unable to beat Hit and was losing to him. Prove that SSJ2 Goku, especially after his power already dropped, would be able to beat Hit just fine.

And hey. God is accepted as at least 160,000x Base. That's 3,200x Super Saiyan 1. You're arguing God Goku with up to 3,200x the power couldn't instantly beat a 4-B character

You mean when he was holding back not to kill someone massively below himself, and was still no-diffing? Lol.

I'm talking about Goku using the power of God to instantly beat Hit. Like he did with Trunks. Trunks who is Super Saiyan 3-level

You keep repeating Trunks, ignoring how Trunks was completely fine wothout a scratch on him after that strike.

You keep saying I'm using 'headcanon' then you make things up about character statements. Because you somehow read a page where Beerus goes "Goku should be stronger than this!" then Goku goes God and you somehow interpret that as "Beerus must have been talking about Super Saiyan 1!"

No, I am reading a page where the characters are saying Goku in his SSJ form is losing to Hit, Beerus saying that Goku should be stronger but Hit's time-skip is cheating, and naturally concluding that he is referencing the Goku that is currently fighting, aka SSJ Goku. Either explain why your interpretation is better or don't speak.

Because you think Vegeta is just such a giant moron that he wouldn't realise he could just use a more stable form.

Yes, he is. That's why he wasted his stamina to KO Cabba. That's why he kept using Blue instead of God. That's why Goku critisized him. That's why Goku himself refuses to use Blue unless absolutely necessary, while Vegeta uses it for extended periods of time even when God would be a better choice.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Okay, I'll answer, maybe that's all for now, talk more about Goku since with the context we know that Vegeta weakened by 10 percent of his blue, there's nothing more to say than that percentage is not at the level of Vegeta's SSJ form.

We've already established that weakened SSJB Vegeta was being outperformed by SSJ Goku, and we both established that they are relative when they're not weakened. Whis' statement isn't meant too deeply taken seriously, it's that simple.

We have an indication, when the SSJ blue is the SSJ of the SSJGod, so for obvious reasons he should know how to do it, especially when he has trained with Goku and Whis.

That's up to speculation. But even if we grant that it's irrelevant, since we know Vegeta simply blundered.

about the reduction, how would you not know they have been training for 3 years in the rosat, it is more of a mistake by vegueta to underestimate his opponent, for that reason goku chooses to go to lower forms than to use the blue to save energy, of course using the ssjblue 100 at less than 10 percent of your power is a significant wear and tear, but it is not a wear and tear that makes it inferior to its ssj forms.

Yes, Goku chose to use power forms to preserve stamina, Vegeta didn't. Just shows that Vegeta continuously blunders when he uses Blue, unlike Goku.

 

[RenderGK]

We've already established that weakened SSJB Vegeta was being outperformed by SSJ Goku, and we both established that they are relative when they're not weakened. Whis' statement isn't meant too deeply taken seriously, it's that simple.

That's up to speculation. But even if we grant that it's irrelevant, since we know Vegeta simply blundered.

Yes, Goku chose to use power forms to preserve stamina, Vegeta didn't. Just shows that Vegeta continuously blunders when he uses Blue, unlike Goku.

Clearly we should not take seriously what his teacher says, who knows his forms better, after Goku and Vegeta himself.

And not, that Goku in SSj does better shows that they are not equal, or what hit was contained, as simple as you say.

It reduces his resistance and power from 100 to 10 percent of his power, which is 2c anyway,

This 10 percent of the blue vegueta will never be inferior to his Ssj form of the same Vegeta.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Anyway: SSJ Goku can trade blows with Hit for an extended period of time with even Champa noting that Hit isn't getting anywhere against SSJ Goku,UNTIL Goku started losing stamina due to the time-skip, with the time-skip being the main issue for SSJ Goku and him being implied to be physically stronger.

Meanwhile, Goku rag-dolls Hit and Hit is said to be nowhere near SSJG Goku's level. Hit surviving 3 hits ( While using the time-skip to decrease any damage as much as possible ) is not proof of anything as Goku is clearly not striking with full power against someone he is verbatim much stronger than.

It's also in Goku's nature to not just beat down weaker enemies at max-power.

So it's pretty clear Hit's casual key should be scaled to SSJ Goku.

 

[Nami_Kami]

And not, that Goku in SSj does better shows that they are not equal

I've already proven they're relative using their showings as SSJs. You're literally making the argument that SSJ Goku is comparable to God Vegeta now. Lol

It reduces his resistance and power from 100 to 10 percent of his power, which is 2c anyway

Less than 10% is unqualifiable. We already know it was well below God level, and we've acknowledged that it's into the SSJ levels given how him and Vegeta are relative.

This 10 percent of the blue vegueta will never be inferior to his Ssj form of the same Vegeta.

Again, less than it, not 10%.

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway: SSJ Goku can trade blows with Hit for an extended period of time, UNTIL he started losing stamina due to the time-skip, with the time-skip being the main issue for SSJ Goku and him being implied to be physically stronger.

Meanwhile, Goku rag-dolls Hit and Hit is said to be nowhere near SSJG Goku's level. Hit surviving 3 hits ( While using the time-skip to decrease any damage as much as possible ) is not proof of anything as Goku is clearly not striking with full power against someone he is verbatim much stronger than.

It's also in Goku's nature to not just beat down weaker enemies at max-power.

So it's pretty clear Hit's casual key should be scaled to SSJ Goku.

I agree. Whis states that SSJ God Goku's power is far superior to that of Hits prior to Hit powering up which is good enough for me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So what exactly is being proposed by Nami_Kami here?

Edit: I briefly saw some stuff. For the record, I don't agree with the idea that Vegeta's SSB became 4-B or something in the U6 tournament. Hit was objectively taking hits from SSG Goku and I think this just speaks to the fact that SSJ and SSG aren't infinitely apart or something like that. I briefly saw arguments saying stuff like:

• Hit taking blows from SSG Goku means nothing (no reason was given, it just means nothing and we're supposed to agree I guess)
• Whis says Hit is nowhere near SSG Goku (this is misleading, as he just says Goku is stronger than him, which can still be true with both of them being 2-C)

Vegeta's SSB was also only less than 10% as strong as its full power. Not even something less than 1%. That leads me to believe even a weakened SSB Vegeta is still 2-C.

 

[Damage3245]

So what exactly is being proposed by Nami_Kami here?

From what I gather Hit would scale in the vicinity of 4-B in his casual state that he's in for most of the arc, scaling to 2-C when using his concealed full power.

There are further scaling implications for the Future Trunks arc but I need to double-check these and probably jot them down in a sandbox with properly formatted justifications just so that they're clear.

And this would just be for the manga versions of the characters.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I edited my post based on what I briefly saw

 

[Damage3245]

Well granted they are in a tournment where they're not supposed to kill each other so Goku can be using SSJ God form against him while also holding back his strength to avoid killing Hit.

If Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue was only 10% of his usual strength then it should have still been stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan God form because (due to the 50x Super Saiyan multiplier) the God form should only be 2% as strong as the Super Saiyan Blue form.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well granted they are in a tournment where they're not supposed to kill each other so Goku can be using SSJ God form against him while also holding back his strength to avoid killing Hit.

If Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue was only 10% of his usual strength then it should have still been stronger than Goku's Super Saiyan God form because (due to the 50x Super Saiyan multiplier) the God form should only be 2% as strong as the Super Saiyan Blue form.

Well I never agreed with SSB being 50x SSG, that legit was ignoring something stated for the sake of an upgrade. I'd rather it be reverted to 10x

Also Vegeta's SSB is less than 10%, my point is that it's simply not less than 1% of something like that. Also, even if it's a tournament, that doesn't mean no one's fighting at full power or close to it.