Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Darkmon_cns]

Naruto Storm characters were for about a month

was a goon interpretation of an argument tho so it was quickly taken out.

Wasn't there like a butzu that created a new universe or something in boroto?

 

[Damage3245]

So either the max power form is broken or the Kamehameha is broken, kinda doesn't matter

Or a manga that started off partially as a gag manga shouldn't be judged as being perfectly consistent.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Roshi has described himself as once being the "strongest in the world".
The gap between MAX Power Roshi and the main cast up until the Tien Shinhan Saga very well could be literally astronomical; he only ever fights with his full power during the modern era (i.e., Resurrection 'F' and Super), and Toriyama himself describes Roshi as naturally possessing enormous strength he hides out of lack of trying.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Roshi has described himself as once being the "strongest in the world".
The gap between MAX Power Roshi and the main cast up until the Tien Shinhan Saga very well could be literally astronomical; he only ever fights with his full power during the modern era (i.e., Resurrection 'F' and Super), and Toriyama himself describes Roshi as naturally possessing enormous strength he hides out of lack of trying.

Unreal bulking btw, Roshi gotta be just slamming back those Double Quarter pounders

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Or a manga that started off partially as a gag manga shouldn't be judged as being perfectly consistent.

Or stop trying to make it more complicated by finding inconsistent loopholes for a clear feat and scaling chains.

I know we're not consistent, we're only consistent when it's convenient to being overly conservative.

 

[Omegabronic]

Am i tripping balls? Didn't naurto use to be 2-C on the wiki?

.....why, ask about Naruto in a Dragon Ball thread without context?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

.....why, ask about Naruto in a Dragon Ball thread without context?

The pursuit of knowledge has no one road ahh question

 

[Ednaxel2]

The pursuit of knowledge has no one road ahh question

ahh question

 

[Huesito88]

Unreal bulking btw, Roshi gotta be just slamming back those Double Quarter pounders

Krillin should've learned the max power Roshi form, so he could've killed Cell Max

 

[SlendVeny]

Krillin should've learned the max power Roshi form, so he could've killed Cell Max

"Check out my new transformation!"

"I-impossible! How could he-"

"Hmmph. Just like me and Gohan."

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-"

Turns into Roshi

 

[Godernet]

Wasn't there like a butzu that created a new universe or something in boroto?

no, but they have some lore that might imply universal range with certain hax, it's not a clear-cut statement tho.

although with how things are progressing if the range thing ends up being true, I wouldn't be surprised if that character had comparable AP down the line.

 

[Huesito88]

"Check put my new transformation!"

"I-impossible! How could he-"

"Hmmph. Just like me and Gohan."

"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-"

Turns into Roshi

 

[SlendVeny]

Wasn't there like a butzu that created a new universe or something in boroto?

I believe Obito's eyes are stated to have created the Kamui Dimension in a databook? And Kaguya does the same thing multiple times. Wouldn't scale to anything tho.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Dragon Ball if it was good

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Piccolo's feat is one thing......not sure how it falls back here, but against Major Metallitron, who was near impervious to Goku's attacks, he was able to one shot him with a Kamehameha, Roshi blow up a montain with his Kamehameha in a point where the series is consistently in tier 8 territories, etc, you having 1 example doesn't suddently make it consistent, specially when Raditz, who was stomping both Goku and Piccolo, saw the need to dodge and was concerned by Goku's kamehameha, noting how more powerful it was then what Goku was dishing out prior, Piccolo's scene is the inconsistency here more than anything


i mean, what you should be addressing is how Roshi says that power doesn't matter for Tien, if it is a Kamehameha, he will be able to deflect it, Roshi's words, not mine......idk why you are ignoring that part tbh


also as a note, Base Goku was comparable to Roshi during that fight, yet when he threatened to use his Kamehameha against a 10x stronger Oozaru Goku, chars were scared he was going to kill Goku, which wouldn't make much sense if Roshi's Kamehameha was comparable to his physicals all the time

considering that even a normal kamehameha is.......much superior to one's regular attacks, i am fairly certain a Super one, not the one he used against Piccolo, just a generic "super" kamehameha, aka, just a "super strong one", so even including the ones far above Goku's physicals, a "hypothetical very strong one" if you will

by your logic, if Tien was able to so effortlessly deflect Goku's Kamehameha, which is superior to his physicals and normal power no matter what since it is a charged attack, so effortlesly that even trying would be useless as said by the chars there......why would Goku's physicals do him any favor? like, by your logic they would be comparable, so couldn't Tien just......easily tank/deal with Goku's physicals as he can as well easily deal with his Kamehameha(comparable to Goku's physicals by your logic) with(also by your logic) simply his own AP? then, why couldn't he just use a simply Kiai or Physical blow to overpower Goku as easily as he could overpower a Kamehameha?

this is also not taking into account how Roshi straight up says that power/strength isn't a factor for why Tien can do this at all

Roshi destroying a mountain prior in the same form, but in the next appearance destroying the moon isn’t an inconsistency. It’s just a matter of what he was intending to do with the attack. Also, I’m mentioning that energy attacks can be comparable to the user themself. I made sure to emphasize the comparable part, I didn’t say equal in strength. However, regarding the Piccolo Jr. thing that was already accepted as a valid feat and we accept that energy attacks are comparable to the users unless charged. In the instance of charged attacks like kamehameha, we just need showings of them being comparable in that moment, which the Piccolo Jr. tanking Goku’s kamehameha fulfilled.

I’m not necessarily ignoring that part where he says no matter how strong the kamehameha is, because that statement would be the precedent for that time. I wouldn’t assume that OG DB Tien could deflect a kamehameha from SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga or something. The most important part is the method of how he does this which is a kiai attack. The fact that it’s a kiai attack means that this is power-based.


Also, yeah they were worried about if it would kill Goku. But there’s also a guide that states that Roshi could only stop Goku by destroying the moon. So

I mean the kamehameha would still be comparable to Goku, so Tien being comparable to a normal Goku and Goku’s kamehameha isn’t that big of an issue. It’s like fighting on even terms with someone and they put more effort into an attack and still being fine. That’s not really an issue.

It probably could simply deal with anything at the time, and it’s still something done with kiai, which means it has to ki-based. A kiai is merely just energy-output that you don’t even need ki mastery/control to utilize.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

.....why, ask about Naruto in a Dragon Ball thread without context?

There wasn't a naurto thread and I figured naurto is basically Goku's child (as all the big 3 are) anyway and it seems noone saw a problem with it so my judgment was right

 

[Omegabronic]

There wasn't a naurto thread and I figured naurto is basically Goku's child (as all the big 3 are) anyway and it seems noone saw a problem with it so my judgment was right

.....yes there is

 

[Omegabronic]

Roshi destroying a mountain prior in the same form, but in the next appearance destroying the moon isn’t an inconsistency.

?????? When have i said it was?

It’s just a matter of what he was intending to do with the attack. Also, I’m mentioning that energy attacks can be comparable to the user themself. I made sure to emphasize the comparable part, I didn’t say equal in strength. However, regarding the Piccolo Jr. thing that was already accepted as a valid feat and we accept that energy attacks are comparable to the users unless charged.

yeah, and in the case of the hypotetical said by Krilin in the scene, it was definitely a charged one into consideration, the Piccolo junior one is a valid feat.......but that doesn't really change the point, they CAN be strong enough to not be comparable to the user's physicals, and even that possible far greater strenght is said by Roshi to not matter for Tien

In the instance of charged attacks like kamehameha, we just need showings of them being comparable in that moment, which the Piccolo Jr. tanking Goku’s kamehameha fulfilled.

........again, why are you moving the goalpost to be a discussion about the Piccolo Jr feat being valid or not? I never questioned that

I’m not necessarily ignoring that part where he says no matter how strong the kamehameha is, because that statement would be the precedent for that time. I wouldn’t assume that OG DB Tien could deflect a kamehameha from SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga or something.

I mean, even by the precedent of that saga and timeframe, Goku could absolutely do a Kamehameha that could one shot himself/far, far superior to his physicals(said physical's that Tien is comparable/equal to) making the problem still happen regardless

The most important part is the method of how he does this which is a kiai attack. The fact that it’s a kiai attack means that this is power-based.

And yet Roshi says power isn't a factor at all in what Tien is doing? How come? As i said above, that would include a kamehameha far superior to Tien's power/one that is a one shot gap, that Goku has shown before in the series at this point, as well as Roshi

Also, yeah they were worried about if it would kill Goku. But there’s also a guide that states that Roshi could only stop Goku by destroying the moon. So

Point is, they acnownledge that it is far stronger than his physical power

Also......can't this be used for Moon level Oozaru Goku? I feel like it could

I mean the kamehameha would still be comparable to Goku, so Tien being comparable to a normal Goku and Goku’s kamehameha isn’t that big of an issue.

Not nescesaraly, as you said yourself above, Goku can charge a kamehameha far steonger than himself, has done prior and after this time as well, so you can't say a special "super" kamehameha that is hypotezised by Krillin, in the context of it being a really powerful attack, would still be comparable to Goku in anyway, specially since that would make the hypotetical make no sense, as Krilin would have no reason an attack supposedly not too above Goku's physical power, that Tien is equal to, would make a difference

It’s like fighting on even terms with someone and they put more effort into an attack and still being fine. That’s not really an issue.

Exept in this case said attack has much precedence for one shotting your own level of power and scare people who were stomping you beforehand, and yet the one you are using it on is equal to you in power, but you are saying they have power enough to easily deflect an attack far superior to the one they are equal to? That becomes circular real fast

It probably could simply deal with anything at the time, and it’s still something done with kiai, which means it has to ki-based. A kiai is merely just energy-output that you don’t even need ki mastery/control to utilize.

You certainly need ki mastery to utilize given that we only give Kiai to "advanced" ki users

But also.......this is ignoring the point don't you think? I know what a kiai is......that is the entire point of the problem and circular scalling the statement would give id interpret in the way you are saying to interpret

 

[Huesito88]

Also......can't this be used for Moon level Oozaru Goku? I feel like it could

Would downscaling be allowed?

 

[Omegabronic]

Would downscaling be allowed?

Mmmm, maybe? Depends on how above Max Power Roshi Oozaru Goku is

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

?????? When have i said it was?


yeah, and in the case of the hypotetical said by Krilin in the scene, it was definitely a charged one into consideration, the Piccolo junior one is a valid feat.......but that doesn't really change the point, they CAN be strong enough to not be comparable to the user's physicals, and even that possible far greater strenght is said by Roshi to not matter for Tien


........again, why are you moving the goalpost to be a discussion about the Piccolo Jr feat being valid or not? I never questioned that


I mean, even by the precedent of that saga and timeframe, Goku could absolutely do a Kamehameha that could one shot himself/far, far superior to his physicals(said physical's that Tien is comparable/equal to) making the problem still happen regardless


And yet Roshi says power isn't a factor at all in what Tien is doing? How come? As i said above, that would include a kamehameha far superior to Tien's power/one that is a one shot gap, that Goku has shown before in the series at this point, as well as Roshi


Point is, they acnownledge that it is far stronger than his physical power

Also......can't this be used for Moon level Oozaru Goku? I feel like it could


Not nescesaraly, as you said yourself above, Goku can charge a kamehameha far steonger than himself, has done prior and after this time as well, so you can't say a special "super" kamehameha that is hypotezised by Krillin, in the context of it being a really powerful attack, would still be comparable to Goku in anyway, specially since that would make the hypotetical make no sense, as Krilin would have no reason an attack supposedly not too above Goku's physical power, that Tien is equal to, would make a difference


Exept in this case said attack has much precedence for one shotting your own level of power and scare people who were stomping you beforehand, and yet the one you are using it on is equal to you in power, but you are saying they have power enough to easily deflect an attack far superior to the one they are equal to? That becomes circular real fast


You certainly need ki mastery to utilize given that we only give Kiai to "advanced" ki users

But also.......this is ignoring the point don't you think? I know what a kiai is......that is the entire point of the problem and circular scalling the statement would give id interpret in the way you are saying to interpret

You talked about how Roshi destroying a mountain, in an earlier saga, but then destroying a moon was inconsistent that’s what I was replying to.

By comparable, I just mean that it’s close in power. Like if someone can produce 1000 joules of force and another person can produce 950 joules of force, that’s comparable.

I didn’t move the goalpost? It seemed like you were questioning the validity of the Piccolo Jr. feat so I wanted to substantiate it.

Goku’s kamehameha being stronger than his physicals doesn’t mean that it’s not comparable.

Roshi most likely is just hyping up the fact that any kamehameha within that point in time wouldn’t work on Tien. Since if we take in all the context, he’s literally doing this via using kiai.

I mean sure, but it’s also just a larger attack in general so they’d be worried about that attack landing on Goku. Also, maybe it could be used for Oozaru-Ku, but I’m not gonna be the one making the thread.

My point has consistently been that Goku can make a kamehameha stronger than himself, but that attack is still comparable to him so it’s not like many times stronger than himself, but still comparable to himself. For example, when looking at Piccolo Jr. tank his kamehameha.

Actually, no. I don’t believe there’s any precedent for the kamehameha in OG dragon ball to magically one-shot people. I could see your point if you’re talking about like SSJ Goku blowing up the top-half of Cell, but in OG DB, nah.

Also, yes it’s literally stated you don’t need to have energy control to utilize kiai in the statement. “Therefore, it can be used even if you can’t control your energy.” If you think it’s circular or an inconsistency, I would focus on arguing that, but arguing that kiai isn’t energy-based or has nothing to do with power is blatantly a lie. However, I do disagree that it’s inconsistent since it’s literally the same thing as Piccolo Jr. tanking a kamehameha in my eyes. Energy attacks are just comparable to the users like in that case.

 

[Huesito88]

Roshi most likely is just hyping up the fact that any kamehameha within that point in time wouldn’t work on Roshi. Since if we take in all the context, he’s literally doing this via using kiai.

What?

 

[RedReaper616]

What?

Roshi’s just got that power. Anything Roshi doesn’t work on Roshi.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

What?

Fixed.

 

[Omegabronic]

You talked about how Roshi destroying a mountain, in an earlier saga, but then destroying a moon was inconsistent that’s what I was replying to.

No i didn't? Legit no idea what you are even talking about, i was saying that the Kamehameha being always comparable to the user's physicals is inconsistency compared to it being able to be far above, and even an one shot, in comparison to the user's physicals

By comparable, I just mean that it’s close in power. Like if someone can produce 1000 joules of force and another person can produce 950 joules of force, that’s comparable.

And i am saying that not every kamehameha is comparable, users can make ones that are simply so vastly superior to their physical strenght that they are an one shot difference

I didn’t move the goalpost? It seemed like you were questioning the validity of the Piccolo Jr. feat so I wanted to substantiate it.

....legit can't see how you could come to this conclusion since it didn't had anything to do with what was being discussed.....i legit never questioned the feat

Goku’s kamehameha being stronger than his physicals doesn’t mean that it’s not comparable.

It does actually, his strongest ones can make people who were stomping him scared and one shot those who were unharmed by any of his physical attacks(gave the examples earlier in the other post) so yeah, depending on the Kamehameha, it does make it non comparable to his physicals

Roshi most likely is just hyping up the fact that any kamehameha within that point in time wouldn’t work on Tien.

what makes that the "most likely" answer to what is happening on screen instead of Kiai or Tien himself having Attack deflection? Krilling cites a hypotetical stronger kamehameha that didn't happened in the series even, so that's unlikely

also.....you said yourself that Goku's physicals would be comparable, if somewhat weaker. So why did Goku's physical attacks any good if his kamehameha's were useless by what Roshi said? Shouldn't Tien have an even easier time dealing with those?

Since if we take in all the context, he’s literally doing this via using kiai.

which either means Kiai has attack reflection or Tien is vastly superior to Goku as even his strongest "i can one shot those physically superior to me" kamehameha's wouldn't work on him.....no idea why the first option is so off the tabble here

I mean sure, but it’s also just a larger attack in general so they’d be worried about that attack landing on Goku. Also, maybe it could be used for Oozaru-Ku, but I’m not gonna be the one making the thread.

huh, i will make a mental note of that for later then

My point has consistently been that Goku can make a kamehameha stronger than himself, but that attack is still comparable to him so it’s not like many times stronger than himself, but still comparable to himself. For example, when looking at Piccolo Jr. tank his kamehameha.

And mine is that this is not always the case, his strongest Kamehamehas can one shot those comarable and scared the ones who were stomping him, that point you didn't address at all

Actually, no. I don’t believe there’s any precedent for the kamehameha in OG dragon ball to magically one-shot people. I could see your point if you’re talking about like SSJ Goku blowing up the top-half of Cell, but in OG DB, nah.

Explain Goku's fight against General Metalitron and Goku drilling a hole in a wall he couldn't even dent before then, also.....the Kamehameha is the same technique in Z as in OG DB........what's the difference? Specially since it is the literal same series

Also, yes it’s literally stated you don’t need to have energy control to utilize kiai in the statement. “Therefore, it can be used even if you can’t control your energy.”

You said "mastery" which.....one clearly needs if even Roshi with his years of training is surprised by Tien being able to use it to repel his energy wave, also......the Ki page has it at "Advanced" level.......so who did the goof here?

If you think it’s circular or an inconsistency, I would focus on arguing that

I did focus on that, yeah

but arguing that kiai isn’t energy-based or has nothing to do with power is blatantly a lie.

........? Again, never said that, i said the Roshi's statement notes how what Tien is doing has nothing to do with power, which is pretty blatant

However, I do disagree that it’s inconsistent since it’s literally the same thing as Piccolo Jr.

Again, Piccolo Jr is 1 instance, i brought up like, 4, how can it alone prove consistence if it is in the minority here?

tanking a kamehameha in my eyes. Energy attacks are just comparable to the users like in that case.

Then explain......literally all examples i gave

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also......can't this be used for Moon level Oozaru Goku? I feel like it could

No???????????????????????????????????

"stop Goku", as in neutralize Goku non-fatally. The story makes very clear if Goku was hit head-on by the Kamehameha, he would have been killed.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No???????????????????????????????????

"stop Goku", as in neutralize Goku non-fatally. The story makes very clear if Goku was hit head-on by the Kamehameha, he would have been killed.

Could Yamcha sense ki at the time?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Could Yamcha sense ki at the time?

In context of the episode Yamaha knew that because of the sheer size of the kamehameha wave, and he had tussled with the great ape before so he should understand enough for his confident "he's gona die" to be taken seriously

 

[Vietthai96]

which either means Kiai has attack reflection

What??, Kiai just create air pressure, how it can magically deflect a ki blast that far stronger than its pressure??, do we see people using Kiai to deflect ki attacks that far stronger than the user??

 

[Nullflowerblush]

 

[Omegabronic]

What??, Kiai just create air pressure, how it can magically deflect a ki blast that far stronger than its pressure?

i mean........how else would Tien logically be able to deflect any Kamehameha Goku could possibly trow, as Roshi's statement is said in regards of "power doesn't matter, Goku could have a trumph super power kamehameha, the beam itself just doesn't work on him" so assuming he is talking about what Tien did with Kiai against his own blast, then yeah, it would simply be another aspect of it as it is what is show and stated to do, also.........air pressure cannot reflect beams of energy in real life, so if you want to question the logic behind this.......you are beginning by the wrong step here

, do we see people using Kiai to deflect ki attacks that far stronger than the user??

do we even see it ever doing that again after Tien shows it in that arc?

 

[Vietthai96]

i mean........how else would Tien logically be able to deflect any Kamehameha Goku could possibly trow, as Roshi's statement is said in regards of "power doesn't matter, Goku could have a trumph super power kamehameha, the beam itself just doesn't work on him" so assuming he is talking about what Tien did with Kiai against his own blast, then yeah, it would simply be another aspect of it as it is what is show and stated to do, also.........air pressure cannot reflect beams of energy in real life, so if you want to question the logic behind this.......you are beginning by the wrong step here

Logically?, simply Tien is that strong, what so hard to think about?, you guys just complicated everything up with a bunch of leap in logic. Also why you bring up real life here, we talking about a ki attacks that create air pressure to deflect a supernatural energy beam, what the hell are you on about?

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Logically?, simply Tien is that strong, what so hard to think about?, you guys just complicated everything up with a bunch of leap in logic. Also why you bring up real life here, we talking about a ki attacks that create air pressure to deflect a supernatural energy beam, what the hell are you on about?

Oh waiter, more stonewalling with long nonsensical arguements literally just for the sake of it please

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Also I love the 'erm does he ever do it again' bullshit as if the rest of the fcking series doesnt have characters constantly physically scaling to charged ki attacks from characters comparable in power, destroying this 'characters don't actually scale physically to their feats becuz muh charged ki blast' agenda

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

No i didn't? Legit no idea what you are even talking about, i was saying that the Kamehameha being always comparable to the user's physicals is inconsistency compared to it being able to be far above, and even an one shot, in comparison to the user's physicals


And i am saying that not every kamehameha is comparable, users can make ones that are simply so vastly superior to their physical strenght that they are an one shot difference


....legit can't see how you could come to this conclusion since it didn't had anything to do with what was being discussed.....i legit never questioned the feat



It does actually, his strongest ones can make people who were stomping him scared and one shot those who were unharmed by any of his physical attacks(gave the examples earlier in the other post) so yeah, depending on the Kamehameha, it does make it non comparable to his physicals



what makes that the "most likely" answer to what is happening on screen instead of Kiai or Tien himself having Attack deflection? Krilling cites a hypotetical stronger kamehameha that didn't happened in the series even, so that's unlikely

also.....you said yourself that Goku's physicals would be comparable, if somewhat weaker. So why did Goku's physical attacks any good if his kamehameha's were useless by what Roshi said? Shouldn't Tien have an even easier time dealing with those?


which either means Kiai has attack reflection or Tien is vastly superior to Goku as even his strongest "i can one shot those physically superior to me" kamehameha's wouldn't work on him.....no idea why the first option is so off the tabble here


huh, i will make a mental note of that for later then


And mine is that this is not always the case, his strongest Kamehamehas can one shot those comarable and scared the ones who were stomping him, that point you didn't address at all


Explain Goku's fight against General Metalitron and Goku drilling a hole in a wall he couldn't even dent before then, also.....the Kamehameha is the same technique in Z as in OG DB........what's the difference? Specially since it is the literal same series


You said "mastery" which.....one clearly needs if even Roshi with his years of training is surprised by Tien being able to use it to repel his energy wave, also......the Ki page has it at "Advanced" level.......so who did the goof here?


I did focus on that, yeah


........? Again, never said that, i said the Roshi's statement notes how what Tien is doing has nothing to do with power, which is pretty blatant


Again, Piccolo Jr is 1 instance, i brought up like, 4, how can it alone prove consistence if it is in the minority here?


Then explain......literally all examples i gave

Well I disagree it’s depicted as comparable in some instances atleast during this point of the series especially with the Piccolo Jr. thing.

I checked your post again so I believe you’re talking about the Roshi vs Oozaru instance. So, Goku was already losing to Roshi and he was trapped under his move until he looked at the moon, but this point doesn’t really matter so it’s not my point of emphasis. This doesn’t necessarily

Yeah, the attack is being deflected via kiai, but it’s not like some sort of attack reflection hax like full counter by Meliodas or something. It’s merely the attack being deflected away via the use of dispersed energy. The reason I think it’s off the table is because it’s never stated to be, it’s just him deflecting attacks with kiai that’s not a hax.


Instead of having some huge back and forth, I’m just gonna try and summarize what I’m saying: The kamehameha is indeed stronger the character’s physicals, but it’s still comparable to them in power. I understand you’re using the fact that Goku couldn’t punch metal, and that you’re arguing Goku being comparable to his super kamehameha is merely one instance. However, my argument doesn’t hinge on this I know there are times they seem a bit more stronger than other ocassions, BUT in this occasion Tien is merely using a kiai. I get your argument is that they were holding their own against each other in H2H combat, but that doesn’t change the fact that Tien could deflect his kamehameha with a kiai blast. The same way Piccolo Jr. was losing to Goku, but he could tank a super kamehameha.

 

[Omegabronic]

Logically?, simply Tien is that strong, what so hard to think about?, you guys just complicated everything up with a bunch of leap in logic.

it isn't a leap in logic, it is a logical thing anyone would think about "he can deflect any Kamehameha no matter how strong simply cuz he is soo much stronger than them" "wait but, Goku is equal to him, and Goku can do a Kamehameha that can one shot people comparable, or even much superior to himself.........so Tien would upscale that much above Goku as no Kamehameha would ever work per what is said.........yet, he is still equal in strength even when Tien is supp

Also why you bring up real life here, we talking about a ki attacks that create air pressure to deflect a supernatural energy beam, what the hell are you on about?

now you see the point, since it is super natural to begin with......why couldn't it have an inherent Attack Reflection factor to it? more over, why can't Tien's version have that characteristic? earlier you said "it is just a shockwave" as a counterpoint to why it couldn't possibly be supernatural attack reflection to stronger attacks then Tien's AP..........but now that i bring up how the move itself shouldn't be able to logically do what it already does, you call me out for it being supernatural? you can see where i am coming from at least, right?

Also I love the 'erm does he ever do it again' bullshit as if the rest of the fcking series doesnt have characters constantly physically scaling to charged ki attacks from characters comparable in power, destroying this 'characters don't actually scale physically to their feats becuz muh charged ki blast' agenda

not every charged ki blast is marginally higher than the user's base power.........but saying none of them are is equally wrong via several showings in the series, negating their existence entirely is arguably even more egregious

Well I disagree it’s depicted as comparable in some instances atleast during this point of the series especially with the Piccolo Jr. thing.

again, you are arguing as if the Kamehameha was always a constant set power level.......it isn't, and at this point in the series is exactly where we get the "it is FAR above the users power depending on how it is used" situations, heck Null even showed a statement saying how the whole point of the move is being far superior to the user's own base strength even, i don't even know why you are treating it still as if i said all kamehameha are so much higher than their users..........cause i never said that

I checked your post again so I believe you’re talking about the Roshi vs Oozaru instance. So, Goku was already losing to Roshi and he was trapped under his move until he looked at the moon, but this point doesn’t really matter so it’s not my point of emphasis. This doesn’t necessarily

.......being real here, i have no idea what part of my answer you are referring to here lol, if it is the "Kamehameha far superior to the user depending on how it is used" bit......then there is a fair more situations, that wall that Goku couldn't dent, but could make a solid hole in it with the Kamehameha, Major Metallitron, Raditz, Cell, etc, if we included other charged attacks that are not the kamehameha in specific we would be here for hours honestly, point is..........the Kamehameha is not a set power attack, it can be far stronger on weaker on circumstance, specially when special variations are taken into account, that is a fact that you cannot really deny as it is super consistent through the series, it all really depends on how much power you condense in a single blast

Yeah, the attack is being deflected via kiai, but it’s not like some sort of attack reflection hax like full counter by Meliodas or something. It’s merely the attack being deflected away via the use of dispersed energy.

do we even have a statement saying specifically that this is how it works or is that you educated guess on how it works?

The reason I think it’s off the table is because it’s never stated to be, it’s just him deflecting attacks with kiai that’s not a hax.

Kiai alone as a thing is a supernatural hax, that aside, this is an "argument from ignorance", just because it isn't stated to be a Attack Reflection hax isn't proof that it isn't, as well as not being proof that it is, further analysis is required.......and given the "power doesn't matter" statement Roshi made + the circumstance in which it is said to begin with "Krillin suggesting Goku has a Kamehameha more powerful than the ones he used so far", leads me to believe it does have some other hax that would make the power difference irrelevant

on its own of course, if it has an elaboration on how this "Kiai reflection" works exactly then that would help wonders

Instead of having some huge back and forth, I’m just gonna try and summarize what I’m saying: The kamehameha is indeed stronger the character’s physicals, but it’s still comparable to them in power. I understand you’re using the fact that Goku couldn’t punch metal, and that you’re arguing Goku being comparable to his super kamehameha is merely one instance. However, my argument doesn’t hinge on this I know there are times they seem a bit more stronger than other ocassions, BUT in this occasion Tien is merely using a kiai. I get your argument is that they were holding their own against each other in H2H combat, but that doesn’t change the fact that Tien could deflect his kamehameha with a kiai blast. The same way Piccolo Jr. was losing to Goku, but he could tank a super kamehameha.

yeah but like.......this logic of yours only works if you assume a Kamehameha is stagnant in how much more powerful it can be made, which is visibly not true, be it the kamehameha or not, Condensed energy attacks in general get far stronger the more energy you condense, at least, seeing the series that is clearly the case

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Yeah that was a bunch of yap and mostly involved you responding to arguements we didn't make then accusing us of doing the same fckkng thing

'Not every blast is marginally higher' genuinely what the **** are you talking about i never said that. If your arguement is charged ki blasts arent stagnant jumps, that doesn't remove characters physically scaling to them later in the series, you have just made a bunch of meaningless metnal gymnastics lmao

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Its literally just attack reflection via AP, you are needlessly overcomplicating this just for the sake of it

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

it isn't a leap in logic, it is a logical thing anyone would think about "he can deflect any Kamehameha no matter how strong simply cuz he is soo much stronger than them" "wait but, Goku is equal to him, and Goku can do a Kamehameha that can one shot people comparable, or even much superior to himself.........so Tien would upscale that much above Goku as no Kamehameha would ever work per what is said.........yet, he is still equal in strength even when Tien is supp


now you see the point, since it is super natural to begin with......why couldn't it have an inherent Attack Reflection factor to it? more over, why can't Tien's version have that characteristic? earlier you said "it is just a shockwave" as a counterpoint to why it couldn't possibly be supernatural attack reflection to stronger attacks then Tien's AP..........but now that i bring up how the move itself shouldn't be able to logically do what it already does, you call me out for it being supernatural? you can see where i am coming from at least, right?


not every charged ki blast is marginally higher than the user's base power.........but saying none of them are is equally wrong via several showings in the series, negating their existence entirely is arguably even more egregious


again, you are arguing as if the Kamehameha was always a constant set power level.......it isn't, and at this point in the series is exactly where we get the "it is FAR above the users power depending on how it is used" situations, heck Null even showed a statement saying how the whole point of the move is being far superior to the user's own base strength even, i don't even know why you are treating it still as if i said all kamehameha are so much higher than their users..........cause i never said that


.......being real here, i have no idea what part of my answer you are referring to here lol, if it is the "Kamehameha far superior to the user depending on how it is used" bit......then there is a fair more situations, that wall that Goku couldn't dent, but could make a solid hole in it with the Kamehameha, Major Metallitron, Raditz, Cell, etc, if we included other charged attacks that are not the kamehameha in specific we would be here for hours honestly, point is..........the Kamehameha is not a set power attack, it can be far stronger on weaker on circumstance, specially when special variations are taken into account, that is a fact that you cannot really deny as it is super consistent through the series, it all really depends on how much power you condense in a single blast


do we even have a statement saying specifically that this is how it works or is that you educated guess on how it works?


Kiai alone as a thing is a supernatural hax, that aside, this is an "argument from ignorance", just because it isn't stated to be a Attack Reflection hax isn't proof that it isn't, as well as not being proof that it is, further analysis is required.......and given the "power doesn't matter" statement Roshi made + the circumstance in which it is said to begin with "Krillin suggesting Goku has a Kamehameha more powerful than the ones he used so far", leads me to believe it does have some other hax that would make the power difference irrelevant

on its own of course, if it has an elaboration on how this "Kiai reflection" works exactly then that would help wonders


yeah but like.......this logic of yours only works if you assume a Kamehameha is stagnant in how much more powerful it can be made, which is visibly not true, be it the kamehameha or not, Condensed energy attacks in general get far stronger the more energy you condense, at least, seeing the series that is clearly the case

No, I’m arguing that a kamehameha is stronger than the user, but in some cases we can see that it appears marginally above the user and therefore comparable to the user.

Yeah, I have a statement that says it’s via kiai. I’m not making anything up. Here, also here is a scan that goes a bit more extensive of what kiai is. It’s essentially just your energy that disperses outwards from your body without concentration in one spot.

Kiai is not a supernatural hax, it’s merely the dispersion of energy going outwards. It’s like arguing that ki blasts and kamehamehas are supernatural haxes, but you’re free to think that I suppose. Unless you’re saying Tien’s kiai in specific is a supernatural hax, in which case I still disagree.

No, I’m not arguing that kamehameha has a set power, but I’m arguing that the power from the kamehameha depends on the power of the user who’s using it, and in instances is seemingly comparable to the user.

 

[Omegabronic]

'Not every blast is marginally higher' genuinely what the **** are you talking about i never said that.

and when did i said that you said that? I wasn't even talking about something you said, but explaining my point about how the Kamehameha can either be somewhat above or far above the user

If your arguement is charged ki blasts arent stagnant jumps, that doesn't remove characters physically scaling to them later in the series

.........? Again, when have i said they never scale? They do......just not for every ki blast technique all the time, there are several cases and cases

also why so heated?

No, I’m arguing that a kamehameha is stronger than the user, but in some cases we can see that it appears marginally above the user and therefore comparable to the user.

........isn't that phrase......oh i get it, i was using the wronf term, what i meant is "far higher" not "slightly", my goof here

Yeah, I have a statement that says it’s via kiai.

.....that isn't what i asked tho?
"on its own of course, if it has an elaboration on how this "Kiai reflection" works exactly then that would help wonders"
I said it is via Kiai, i was asking for a statement on the mechanics of how the Kiai deflection works, not if it is done with the Kiai itself

I’m not making anything up.

Mm, didn't accused you to have......but ok

Here, also here is a scan that goes a bit more extensive of what kiai is. It’s essentially just your energy that disperses outwards from your body without concentration in one spot.

Kay........but does it explain how the deflection works? Cuz huh, that was what i was asking for elaboration

Kiai is not a supernatural hax, it’s merely the dispersion of energy going outwards.

Via supernatural means, look, i......think, i know what you are meaning to say.......but you should really word it better, also......if Kiai's are dispersion of energy..... what exactly stops them from being above the user's own physical strenght like how the Ki Blasts attacks can also be?

It’s like arguing that ki blasts and kamehamehas are supernatural haxes, but you’re free to think that I suppose.

Again, i think I know what you meant......but i am not sure, an energy beam made from your inner energy is factually supernatural........can you explain better what do you mean?

Unless you’re saying Tien’s kiai in specific is a supernatural hax, in which case I still disagree.

Not in specific, but his is clearly somewhat special if it can deflect Ki attacks easily like that......unless it is a thing all Kiais can do? Do we even have another example to know?

No, I’m not arguing that kamehameha has a set power, but I’m arguing that the power from the kamehameha depends on the power of the user who’s using it, and in instances is seemingly comparable to the user.

And in others is largely superior, it depends on the users power as well as how much energy they condense, which can make it a large one shot gap, which loops back to the problem in question with the circular scalling and such