• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dragon Ball Super Broly Revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
@Ryukama Why wouldn't Goku and Vegeta being treated as equals be the contradiction than?

Cause in the tournament of power we know that Goku gained a third Limit Break boost after Vegeta got knocked out. And we know that Vegeta only managed to catch up with Post-2nd UIS Goku after he broke his Limits himself and unlocked SSBE which was stated to be equal to SSBKK. So it makes sense for Vegeta to be much weaker now that Goku broke his Limit one more time while he didn't.

WoG said Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku who is near the Gods.

Movie showed SSG Vegeta being unable to faze initial Wrath Broly. Light novel mentioned SSG Vegeta being unable to faze Wrath Broly.

Movie showed SS1 Goku being on par with initial Wrath Broly. Light novel said they were evenly matched with each other.

Right now almost everything point towards Goku being stronger than Vegeta.
 
@BlackeJan; that's another bad example. The difference is that SSJ3 Gotenks is Majin Buu's level, Goku and Vegeta are still both characters who are of the same tier and are regularly shown comparable. Not to mention Fusion Dance is a technique that requires both participants to have near equal power levels in the first place. Base Goku fighting SSJ2 Caulifla also further explains that Goku was dominating via far better skill and better senses rather than power or speed. Hence why Base Goku isn't above SSG Vegeta; and against, it's the same as saying Base Goku being above SSB Vegeta in Universe 6 saga.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Just a bit of correction Base Goku never fought Kale. Base Goku fought SS2 Caulifla. And than fought the two of them as a SS2.

Also this is different. We know that in the ToP Vegeta was far behind Goku after he broke his limits. We see that after breaking his limits once Goku's SSBKK became nearly as strong as the Spriit Bomb. After breaking his limits twice he surpassed the First and Second UIS in SSB and SSBKK respectively. Vegeta only managed to catch up to Goku when he achieved SSBE and broke his limits once himself in episode 123.

And than at the end of the tournament Goku broke his limits a third time while Vegeta didn't. This pretty much confirms that Vegeta is now once again vastly weaker than Goku.
 
Vegeta is only vastly weaker than Goku if you're comparing him to the Ultra Instinct forms now. After the Tournament of Power, they both spared twice again and Goku acknowledged Vegeta as someone who trains harder and is still a strong opponent. Also, when Goku and Vegeta where both in SSB forms, they were both treated as equal to each other against SSJ Broly.
 
I'm against SSJ Goku being scaled to bring greater than SSG Vegeta as like it was mentioned before, it contradicts a lot of established feats or statements. Unless Goku went through what Gohan did to get his ultimate form in the Buu saga, the mere idea that SSJ Goku >>> an SSG form from someone who's always been competing against Goku is ludicrous.
 
Can you guys at least give your reasons for why you think this is an inconsistency other than Goku and Vegeta are always shown to be equal and because they were shown to be equal in two short spars rather than an actual battle?

Cause right now the reasons for Goku being stronger than Vegeta are

1. Goku gained another limit breaking boost while Vegeta didn't at the end of the Tournament of Power when they were equal to each other. And we know that after every limit break boost Goku becomes vastly stronger than before. So by logic after the boost Goku should be stronger than Vegeta.

2. Word of God stated Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku who is near the Gods.

3. Base Goku holds his own against initial Wrath Broly better than SSG Vegeta did.

4. SS1 Goku was shown and stated to be nearly equal to initial Wrath Broly who was shown and stated to be overpowering SSG Vegeta.

The reasons against Goku being stronger than Vegeta are

1. Vegeta and Goku are always treated as equals. Therefore they should still be equal no matter what.

2. At the end of the anime they were shown to be equal in a short spar as SSB.

3. In the movie they were shown to be equal in Base in a short spar.

4. Vegeta and Goku were seemingly shown to be equal as SSBs against Broly.
 
I also said it above; it makes far more sense to just say Goku studied Broly's fighting style and kept up with him via skill rather than him showing anywhere near as much power or speed as an unprepared SSG Vegeta.
 
The movie straight up showed them trading blows and blocking punches from each other as well as SS1 Goku surprising Wrath Broly with his speed. The light novel also said they were striking an nearly equally matched battle with no mention of Goku keeping up using skills. If he was using skills the novel would've mentioned it like when he initially fought Wrath Broly as a SSG.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I also said it above; it makes far more sense to just say Goku studied Broly's fighting style and kept up with him via skill rather than him showing anywhere near as much power or speed as an unprepared SSG Vegeta.
Click to expand...
Skill can only take you so far dude.

If you don't have the speed and power to match it up, then skill is worthless.
 
I know that, but PIS is also a thing; they're both absurdly high levels of 3-A yes, but my point our points still stand; we shouldn't treat Base Goku as being above Broly just for this reason.
 
That's not the only reason though. WoG also stated Vegeta is desperately trying to catch up to Goku. At the end of the tournament we literally have confirmation from Whis that Goku broke his limits once again something Vegeta didn't do. Just a few minutes ago Vegeta was still equal to Goku. And we've seen how big of a boost the limit breaks give. So Goku being much stronger than Vegeta is actually rather consistent since he gained another power boost while Vegeta didn't.
 
I disagree.

Couldn't the first two statements (the one regarding Goku being close to Gods and Vegeta desperately trying to catch up) be a mere reference to UI? UI has always been depicted to be on GoD realm, and Vegeta has to catch up to that power because he is several light years behind it.

My theory is that Goku being close to be a god is he trying to use UI on will and not depending of a life-death situation like in the ToP. Once Goku reaches UI he can very well be called a God. Since in the whole ToP it has been hinted to be the an technique even Gods can't master and the power it grants to Goku makes him very comparable to the Gods if not even superior. and Vegeta is trying to catch up as he wants to have the power Goku reached in the very last moment of the ToP, As he can't be remotely compared to it.

I don't think author's intention would be SSJB Goku be even near the level of the GoDs, or SSJ Goku be a lot above SSJB Vegeta. that's just an major outlier as Goku and Vegeta are always treated as some kind of friendly rivals and both are in the same ballpark if assuming both are on the same forms (supported by two scenes of them after the ToP clearly depicting them as equals and probably all of DBS), ignoring all of this just power levels weren't very thought about in that specific fight scene imo is stupid.

Renember when in the Black-arc Vegeta trained in the HTC, and got out with a massive power boost that made him well above Black Goku (for moments) and by extension Goku? barely some episodes later without any training from Goku's part we see Goku do as good as Vegeta and even better. or even then in Episode 123 Vegeta has somehow reached Goku's league despite this last one got Two limit breaking boosts (and before them he was equal to Vegeta) the same can happen here with Vegeta being on the same level with Goku even though the last one has been gone through an Limit breaking boost. Almost always in DBS Goku and Vegeta will be equal/or at least in the same ballpark of power except if one of them gets a new transformation.
 
Warren Valion said:
SuperDragoon978 said:
Nope.
SSJ Goku failed to damage Broly in the movie itself. No point in relying on the novel when it is non main continuity to my knowledge. You're ignoring the fact that God Vegeta was fully capable of blocking Rage Broly's hits himself and was never truly overpowered before Goku stepped in. The beginning of the movie is also being ignored where Base Goku and Vegeta fight and never once is it implied Goku was heavily holding back to placate Vegeta. Same with 131. If Goku was so strong, why fight with Super Saiyan Blue? Apparently, Super Saiyan 1 would be enough.

I have already stated that Vegeta is trying to catch up to Goku at his strongest, ie, Ultra Instinct. Vegeta is nowhere near MUI level yet. Has nothing to do with him supposedly being fodder to SSJ1 Goku when the two times they've fought they were equals.

Edit: Forgot to mention the whole "SSB Vegeta holds off Broly as well As Goku does. Using the novel, since you're using it, isn't it flat out stated both of them are able to budge SSJ Broly? Not just Goku?

Edit 2: Also if Current Blue Goku is GoD tier then how is Full Power SSJ Broly only possibly above Beerus? Or are we ignoring that statement to rely on stuff outside of the movie or the novel that assumes has that statement?

Also, I'm out for now. If upgrade goes through I'm probably not going to contribute to this site anymore.
Click to expand...
"If Goku was so strong, why fight with Super Saiyan Blue?"
You know this is the guy that went Blue and struggled to fight against ******* Krillin, right?

Goku. Holds. Back. All. The. *******. Time.


Using two brief scenes where Goku's in a spar against a comrade to try and debunk what was visually shown to us, what was written down in a light novel adaptation, and what was stated by W.o.G. to be true is what is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Back.

And I further argue, WHY exactly is Goku supposedly holding back so much against Vegeta and why is Vegeta suddenly so weak Goku can do so? With Krillin its blatantly obvious he's holding back since Krillin couldn't beat Base Goku. Goku has failed to show in series he's hundreds of time stronger than Vegeta the two times he has fought him. Hell does the novel even imply he's holding back? I doubt it. If anything I remember it being stated Goku and Vegeta were going all out since they had a huge wide area to fight in.

We might as well assume Goku was holding back in literally every fight he ever struggled in at this point, regardless if it was implied or not.

My viewpoint is this: Goku and Vegeta have fought twice since the ToP. They were portrayed as equals both times. They both fought together against SSJ Broly and performed equally well. That's three combat scenarios again SSJ Goku's one. Goku has been known to hold back against people way stronger than him. In Super alone, Goku fought Hit in Base despite seeing SSB Vegeta get stomped, and Goku used Base and most of his SSJ forms against Jiren despite being told Jiren was above Toppo, a SSB tier fighter, and seeing Kale, who stomped him even with SSB, get one-shot by Jiren. Both Goku and Vegeta held back their strongest forms against Anilaza despite the guy stomping them and overpowering them even when in Blue and backed up by Freeza, Gohan, and 17. Why would this not be a similar situation?

Edit: And with Hit's situation, Goku was actually capable of slightly hurting him. Jiren was also somewhat pushed back by SSB even without Kaioken, despite later stomping Goku and casually pushing back the Spirit Bomb. So Goku has been capable of holding off or even hurting opponents way above him by being extremely skilled.

Hopefully final edit: And speaking of Kale, she's another example. Goku fights her with SSJ2 despite being stomped even with SSB and him being able to sense ki means he should be fully aware how strong she is.
 
I don't think minor, barely on-screen, spars between rivals should be taken seriously for powerscaling purposes. We know Goku likes to hold back against weaker opponents, even when the situation is dire, to draw out more of their potential and help them grow.

The only actual argument against SS Goku = SSG Vegeta, from what I can see, is that it should be treated as an inconsistency, an outlier, and I understand this perspective completely.

People who argue that things like "Roshi blowing up the moon is an outlier" or "Frieza tanking Broly for over an hour is an outlier" are irrational and incorrect as these points are extremely important and relevant to the story itself and its progression.

Goku testing Broly and fighting him is, in my mind, something that is built less on story-progression and a required aspect of the story but rather nothing more but hype designed to show off Goku and Vegeta in all of the same forms against Broly whilst providing them their own one-on-one time with Broly.

In other words...it's merely for marketing and hype appeal. It shouldn't be considered as relevant and I agree that it's probably just an outlier that exists to show off Goku and Vegeta.

___________

That being said...if we get a director's cut, a novel translation of Goku vs Broly or a anime arc that keeps or expands upon these scenes further and makes it evident that Goku and Vegeta have this gap...then I am going to start agreeing that the fights should be taken seriously as power scaling.
 
@Omegas03

Ul was never mentioned or shown within the film, nor can Goku enter the form by his own will.

So saying that the interview for Dragon Ball Super Broly was talking about UI as Goku's way of "catching up with the Gods", is in my opinion, rather unfounded.
 
What's our take on the Light Novel's canonicity? I know it's not written by Toriyama and is simply a retelling of the movie which doesn't even add the parts of the 3-hour long AT script, but still asking just to make sure.
 
AKM sama said:
What's our take on the Light Novel's canonicity? I know it's not written by Toriyama and is simply a retelling of the movie which doesn't even add the parts of the 3-hour long AT script, but still asking just to make sure.
Click to expand...
As far as i know, we have nothing official about it, IMO, it's just the film but put into words rather than picture so it should count as clarification of the movie since a lot of stuff is harder to represent in pictures rather than word and it's easier to wrongly interpret them.
 
I didn't really know there was a light novel, but I don't quite think we should consider it canon unless Toriyama considers it so.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I didn't really know there was a light novel, but I don't quite think we should consider it canon unless Toriyama considers it so.
Click to expand...
It was handed out at Japanese showings of the movie, IIRC.

It is literally just showing what is in the movie in word form. There are no differences, like at all.

So it should be considered canon, in my opinion.
 
"The Dragon Ball Super: Broly light novel is an adaptation of Dragon Ball Super: Broly, written by Masatoshi Kusakabe and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. It was released in Japan on December 14, 2018 on the same date as the movies release in theaters."
 
Oh, if Toriyama made the illustration, i'd say it's definitely canon when you consider what i previously said.
 
We know that broly's power is inconsistent throughout the whole movie, so you cant use his fight against goku to claim that goku is leagues beyond vegeta especially since goku was using martial arts techniques as opposed to brolys raw fighting style, when they fought ssj broly they both were dead equal, his ssj state cant be stronger than ssg vegeta, especially since they both were beaten to the same power level by ssj broly as them messing up fusion never had anything to do with them being unequal in power
 
TheFallenProfit said:
We know that broly's power is inconsistent throughout the whole movie, so you cant use his fight against goku to claim that goku is leagues beyond vegeta especially since goku was using martial arts techniques as opposed to brolys raw fighting style, when they fought ssj broly they both were dead equal, his ssj state cant be stronger than ssg vegeta, especially since they both were beaten to the same power level by ssj broly as them messing up fusion never had anything to do with them being unequal in power
Click to expand...
His power wasn't inconsistent, it was litteraly a straight upward line.
 
Yet he couldn't even cause considerable damage to nase frieza who's at best equal to base goku and vegeta, this is the same ssj broly that forced ssb goku and vegeta to retreat, his power was very inconsistent
 
TheFallenProfit said:
Yet he couldn't even cause considerable damage to nase frieza who's at best equal to base goku and vegeta, this is the same ssj broly that forced ssb goku and vegeta to retreat, his power was very inconsistent
Click to expand...
Except that it was said that Freezer had been training and Freezer's blow were actualy more powerfull than SSJB Goku and Vegeta.

so no, his power wasn't inconsistent at all, Freezer just trained and got another big boost.
 
Frieza didn't train at all after the tournament, it was never stated at all and was said that the tournament had barely ended so even if he did train it wouldn't of been enough for him to surpass goku and vegeta, frieza didn't hurt ssj broly at all

His power was completely inconsistent, he couldn't even cause considerable damage to base frieza who's at best equal to base goku and vegeta
 
TheFallenProfit said:
Frieza didn't train at all after the tournament, it was never stated at all and was said that the tournament had barely ended so even if he did train it wouldn't of been enough for him to surpass goku and vegeta, frieza didn't hurt ssj broly at all
His power was completely inconsistent, he couldn't even cause considerable damage to base frieza who's at best equal to base goku and vegeta
Click to expand...
It was, It was said that Freezer trained and got stronger and no, the tournament hasn't barely ended, both Goku and Vegeta had the time to train and have at least two serious sparing match.

He surpassed a god level gap in 4 month, even if he had only trained for a week, he would have had a serious power increase.

But his attack were able to push back Broly somewhat while SSB Goku and Vegeta could barely make him move his neck, it's made clear in the novel.

His power was a straight upward line and was consistently purely growing, Freezer is way stronger than before, that's all.

Just look at the thread that upgraded Freezer to low-2C
 
lol Frieza went from High 5-A at his weakest and Low 4-C at his strongest to 4-B at his weakest and 3-A at his strongest in 4 months
 
No it wasn't, if frieza was that much stronger than goku and vegeta then he would've just killed them, especially since he wanted to kill goku, the fact that he straight up states that goku and vegeta were a step above him at the end of the movie debunks your claim, vegeta stated the tournament barely ended and them having sparring matches isn't any indication that it ended a while ago since they can spar whenever and how long they want

Except he didn't train at all, if he was stronger than then then he wouldn't send his weaker soldiers to get the dragon balls out of fear that goku and vegeta would sense him

Ssb goku and vegeta were able to push back broly a little bit until they retreated, frieza went golden and the pressure from the form pushed him back yet frieza never got the upper hand against broly and was getting bodied the whole time

His power wasn't a straight upward line, it was massively inconsistent
 
"the fact that he straight up states that goku and vegeta were a step above him at the end of the movie debunks your claim"

Stop saying this. I have seen multiple people claim this blatant lie and it's starting to annoy me. I have the novel I have seen the subbed movie, hell I even have the dubbed film and Frieza doesn't state this even once. In the dub he states Goku and Vegeta stop him despite how much he raises his battle power and in the sub he outright states that he doesn't want to face Goku and Vegeta together (which if you use your brain you will note that he says this after witnessing fusion) and that he would like a partner to aid him.

"Except he didn't train at all, if he was stronger than then then he wouldn't send his weaker soldiers to get the dragon balls out of fear that goku and vegeta would sense him"

????????????????????????????? Have you never heard of tactics? Why would Frieza want to piss off Goku and Vegeta when the Earth has all of THEIR allies and he saw Ultra Instinct? He doesn't even know if Goku has learned to use it at will. There's also the case of Beerus and Whis who could ally with them for any number of reasons.

"Ssb goku and vegeta were able to push back broly a little bit until they retreated, frieza went golden and the pressure from the form pushed him back yet frieza never got the upper hand against broly and was getting bodied the whole time"

Goku and Vegeta TOGETHER could push Broly a 'little bit'. Frieza by himself could knock Broly away dozens of meters (with Broly's heels digging into the ground) which visibly shocked Broly.

Regardless of how you want to approach the nature of the novel being canon you can not deny that Goku felt that he and Vegeta NEEDED to retreat and that Goku felt that he could, in-fact, leave Frieza to distract Broly for over an hour. The only reason he could be confident in doing so would be if Frieza was equal to or greater than he, Goku, is.
 
1. If frieza in base was far above ssb goku and vegeta then his golden State would be league's beyond gogeta blue, the fact that frieza still views goku and vegeta as threats debunks him being stringer than them, he witnessed broly get clapped by gogeta blue, which means he knows broly isn't in par with gogeta, the fact that frieza wants to recruit broly implies that he wants to train with him once he's controlled, if frieza was already league's beyond ssb goku and vegeta he wouldn't need to recruit a partner to help beat them

Because you people believe that frieza trained and got way stronger than goku and vegeta blue in his base form which is straight up false, he knows from rof that beerus and whis won't get involved so you bringing that up is irrelevant, the tournament had just ended, frieza would've known that he couldn't of mastered it since he knows that goku didn't even know how to tap into it

Frieza knocked broly back because he powered up when he wasn't anticipating a powerboost, he was just bodying frieza for sport and then he powers up out of nowhere, he was simply caught off guard, besides frieza got bodied worse than goku and vegeta did anyway so you're point equates to nothing

Goku didn't feel that he could leave broly to frieza, they just flew by and frieza just happened to be in the crossfire which he capitalized on the opportunity to leave, he didn't anticipate fusion to take an hour so you're wrong on that, I never said that frieza in golden wasn't atleast on par with ssb goku, I simply said that he isn't stronger than them at all, especially in base and didn't train
 
"If frieza in base was far above ssb goku and vegeta then his golden State would be league's beyond gogeta blue, "

Where are you getting this logic from? Frieza went Golden before Goku and Vegeta even fused in the first place. He, at best, tanked Broly for a minute in his base form.

I am really curious about your multiplier for fusion. Considering BASE Gogeta is comparable to SSB Goku and SS Gogeta is 40-50x that.

"the fact that frieza still views goku and vegeta as threats debunks him being stringer than them"

No, no it does not. He outright states multiple times that he doesn't want to face Goku if he is going to have allies aiding him. His plans in RoF failed due to Whis and could have easily failed due to Vegeta.

"he witnessed broly get clapped by gogeta blue, which means he knows broly isn't in par with gogeta,

Frieza says...MULTIPLE TIMES that Broly has incredible potential and that he has never fought before. Broly in his first day of actual fighting could only be defeated by a literal God Fusion between his most hated opponents.

" the fact that frieza wants to recruit broly implies that he wants to train with him once he's controlled,"

This is pure headcanon. He never states or implies this.

"if frieza was already league's beyond ssb goku and vegeta he wouldn't need to recruit a partner to help beat them"

I have already stated that Frieza said this after he witnessed fusion.

"believe that frieza trained and got way stronger than goku and vegeta blue in his base form which is straight up false"

How is it false? Is there a contradiction to the claim?

"he knows from rof that beerus and whis won't get involved so you bringing that up is irrelevant"

It is relevant when Beerus has outright threatened him multiple times and when Whis is the direct reason for his loss in RoF. Beerus and Whis are unknown factors that can be bribed with food.

"the tournament had just ended, frieza would've known that he couldn't of mastered it since he knows that goku didn't even know how to tap into it

Bra has visibly aged by months. Frieza WOULDN'T know the specifics of Goku's training and what he is capable of. Why would he risk such a dangerous gamble?

"Frieza knocked broly back because he powered up when he wasn't anticipating a powerboost, he was just bodying frieza for sport and then he powers up out of nowhere, he was simply caught off guard, "

Oh I'm sorry. Frieza just powered up WHILE Broly was beating the ever living hell out of him and could push Broly away dozens of meters from the force of his aura while Broly was trying to stop his body from flying backwards. My bad. How could I have possibly recognized that Frieza's feat is better than anything Goku and Vegeta could do combined...I guess SS Broly was just HOLDING BACK down to levels beneath Ikari.

"besides frieza got bodied worse than goku and vegeta did anyway so you're point equates to nothing"

Excuse me? Did we watch the same film? Goku and Vegeta got trashed in under a minute against SS Broly and collapsed out of the air and out of Blue. Frieza took over an hour to be beaten that badly.

"Goku didn't feel that he could leave broly to frieza, they just flew by and frieza just happened to be in the crossfire which he capitalized on the opportunity to leave, he didn't anticipate fusion to take an hour so you're wrong on that, "

Goku specifically is shown as flying past Frieza BEFORE using instant transmission. He was using Frieza to escape. He would have also known that fusion would have likely taken at least two attempts to perform considering he specifically asked Piccolo to help Vegeta learn it. Even if he didn't consider that as a possibility he was still reasonably fine with leaving Frieza to fight Broly during that entire period of time with zero concern or consideration for Broly's rampage.

"I never said that frieza in golden wasn't atleast on par with ssb goku, I simply said that he isn't stronger than them at all, especially in base and didn't train"

Goku could barely handle Broly for even a few minutes on-screen and got curbstomped in under a minute against SS Broly. Frieza tanked him for over an hour in Golden.

Frieza fought Broly for a minute at most in base.

There is no reason to believe Frieza didn't train and I honestly just don't care enough to bring up points that have been argued to death dozens of times since the film released in Japan.

I'm not even going to bother responding to more of your posts. They are illogical and take too damned much space to refute. If you are going to continue arguing then someone else can take the bait and handle it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Veronica
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Super: SBG abandonment
Replies
12
Views
891
CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
Ednaxel2
ANOTHER Dragon Ball Super speed upgrade
2
Replies
65
Views
4K
AguilaR202
Gasper
Dragon ball Broly small abilities addition.
Replies
26
Views
2K
LuffyRuffy46307
LuffyRuffy46307
Damage3245
  • Locked
Massive Dragon Ball Super Downgrade
6 7 8
Replies
282
Views
12K
Damage3245
Damage3245
Ednaxel2
Dragon Ball: New Keys and Oozaru
Replies
27
Views
2K
Nierre
Nierre
Back
Top