Dragon Ball Super Anime: Fused Zamasu Low 2-C Upgrade (I Actually Know What I'm Talking About I Swear)

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

19-1, two of which being mods. So, I can’t say why this isn’t free to accept.

 

[Tarang123]

19-1, two of which being mods. So, I can’t say why this isn’t free to accept.

I think we need 3 mod agreements

 

[CloverDragon03]

19-1, two of which being mods. So, I can’t say why this isn’t free to accept.

There's an automatic 48 hour grace period from the thread's creation

So basically we've gotta wait until April 6th at 5:00 AM-ish EST. Also, more controversial threads require at least 3 mod approvals

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Like this is the same series where characters can even state exactly how much stronger a character is getting with exact details (Hit when he witnessed the Kaioken) and constantly state the obvious (this guy's stronger than ever!), Yet this supposed mythical infinite power increase is never, EVER, brought up or stated in the show.

(2:00)

(0:33)

For reference about how characters can tell exact power jumps.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

The fact no mention of Zamasu getting stronger is ever made makes me agree with the OP

 

[Tarang123]

Like this is the same series where characters can even state exactly how much stronger a character is getting with exact details (Hit when he witnessed the Kaioken) and constantly state the obvious (this guy's stronger than ever!), Yet this supposed mythical infinite power increase is never, EVER, brought up or stated in the show.

To be fair, this is DBS, with some pretty insanely inconsistent powerscaling with massive jumps. It jumps from 3A to 2C. That's gigantic

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think something that also needs to be discussed is who actually scales to this Low 2-C value, in the event that this is passed.

The question really is: Do SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks downscale in some way due to destroying his casual attacks and gradually overpowering him at times? (With the Father-Son Galick Gun and SSB Goku going past his limits)

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

To be fair, this is DBS, with some pretty insanely inconsistent powerscaling with massive jumps. It jumps from 3A to 2C. That's gigantic

Definitely, but at least the power jumps are recognized whenever they happen. But IZ is not even stated at all.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think something that also needs to be discussed is who actually scales to this Low 2-C value, in the event that this is passed.

The question really is: Do SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks downscale in some way due to destroying his casual attacks and gradually overpowering him at times? (With the Father-Son Galick Gun and SSB Goku going past his limits)

Honestly, that should be it's own dedicated thread. But hot-damn does DB have like a billion active threads right now.

 

[Tarang123]

I think something that also needs to be discussed is who actually scales to this Low 2-C value, in the event that this is passed.

The question really is: Do SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks downscale in some way due to destroying his casual attacks and gradually overpowering him at times? (With the Father-Son Galick Gun and SSB Goku going past his limits)

Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks would likely scale, even if only a little.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Honestly, that should be it's own dedicated thread. But hot-damn does DB have like a billion active threads right now.

I disagree. This is pretty important and given the Low 2-C rating coming from Zamasu, I'd like to have this solved now

Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks would likely scale, even if only a little.

Yeah, I was thinking a downscale would work. Something like, for example, on Trunks and Vegeta's pages:

Universe level+ (Could overpower Fusion Zamasu's Holy Wrath alongside Trunks/Vegeta, although individually they are considerably weaker)

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I think something that also needs to be discussed is who actually scales to this Low 2-C value, in the event that this is passed.

The question really is: Do SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks downscale in some way due to destroying his casual attacks and gradually overpowering him at times? (With the Father-Son Galick Gun and SSB Goku going past his limits)

Well Kaioken SSB Goku at least sort of did something against fused Zamasu (like over power his ki enhaced grip and kick him away), so maybe you can rate SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSJ Rage Trunks as half as strong as Fused Zamasu (before his power boosts)? Would sort of fit nicely how Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack over powered his casual attack.

 

[Golden_Void]

Goku is not one to overestimate his capabilities, or underestimate his opponent. The fact that a weakened (so weak he can’t even go Super Saiyan, much less Blue) Goku can take a blast from Infinite Zamasu and get up, then proceed to make that statement, leads testimony to his claim holding water.

Goku was confident in the spirit bomb against Jiren. And then he got blinked. There's plenty of examples.

The scene suggests otherwise. He was being overwhelmed and Zamasu wasn't giving it his all at all (he was just laughing while his blast was overtaking Trunks's). He only started getting serious once Vegeta combined his attack with Trunks's. Yes, it is in fact a stretch.

I'm gonna essentially parrot what Milly said in response to this. Goku doesn't overestimate himself, at all. He knows his limits, we've seen this throughout Dragon Ball. If he says he may be able to do something at full strength, that should be taken as a fact.

I shouldn't have to define the word resist. Trunks resisted Zamasu the same way Gohan initially resisted Cell.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not sure if it'd be half or what, but essentially, it would be some sort of downscale from Fused Zamasu's Low 2-C rating.

And then the 3-A's that become Low 2-C start coming...

 

[Tarang123]

Goku was confident in the spirit bomb against Jiren. And then he got blinked. There's plenty of examples.

I don't think he ever said he was confident the bomb would work, just that it was his last option

 

[CloverDragon03]

Goku was confident in the spirit bomb against Jiren. And then he got blinked. There's plenty of examples.

This is a bad example, as Goku was only going off of the power that Jiren had displayed at that moment. In addition, it was more so that Goku was using the Spirit Bomb as a last resort more than anything.

I shouldn't have to define the word resist. Trunks resisted Zamasu the same way Gohan initially resisted Cell.

So... Not dying to it instantly but still very much being overwhelmed?

That's what it seems like, going by your Gohan and Cell example

 

[Eseseso]

I disagree. This is pretty important and given the Low 2-C rating coming from Zamasu, I'd like to have this solved now

Yeah, I was thinking a downscale would work. Something like, for example, on Trunks and Vegeta's pages:

Universe level+ (Could overpower Fusion Zamasu's Holy Wrath alongside Trunks/Vegeta, although individually they are considerably weaker)

SSJB Goku should downscale to 1/2 of him, since not only did a combined attack from Trunks and Vegeta overpower Fusion Zamasu (so each of them should be 1/2 of Fusion Zamasu's AP), but his Kaioken x2 matched and did notable damage to Fusion Zamasu.

All the ToP people who scale to SSJB Goku would scale to the 1/2 of Low 2-C.

On that note, LSSJ Kale would NOT scale since this CRT shows that she shouldn't scale to SSJB Goku

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I disagree. This is pretty important and given the Low 2-C rating coming from Zamasu, I'd like to have this solved now

Well if it's worth anything, if this gets accepted, I 100% agree Goku, Vegeta and Trunks should downscale.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Goku was confident in the spirit bomb against Jiren. And then he got blinked. There's plenty of examples.

Goku says “I hope you don’t regret giving me time to charge this”, and that “this is our spirit bomb”. He even acknowledges Jiren’s strength when it’s pushed back, so I don’t see how him being confident here is a deterrence, when Jiren was willingly suppressing the extent of his power.

 

[Deagonx]

It means Goku knows what his limits are. Let me go back to the Cell example. He released his power in front of Korin and Yajirobe, and then admitted he won't be able to defeat Cell, much to their shock. Come the Cell Games, he's proven right, as Cell could fight SSJ Goku evenly while holding back (with Goku admitting that he himself gave it everything he had).

It's pretty much an objective fact that Goku knows what his limits are and if he feels he doesn't have a chance against someone, he will admit it. Him saying he may be able to try something if he had a Senzu Bean means that at full power, he may be able to fight off Infinite Zamasu.

Everything has been laid out, and you maintain your stance without a semblance of support for your argument.

I am not denying that Goku has admitted times where he wasn't strong enough, but the conclusion being made from that (that if Goku says he can, he can) is a huge leap from the information that we have, and Goku has in fact been wrong about fights before. More importantly, what do we even think Goku would've done with a Senzu bean? Blasted aimlessly at the sky? It's not even clear if Goku has a mechanism for damaging this form, let alone the appropriate AP to do it.

Are you really gonna claim that you, a basic as hell human that's just watching a show, has a better idea of a characters limit, than the very character that can literally SENSE how powerful he is and is willing to surrender when he knows he can't win? There is literally no way you can know Goku's own strength better than he does because you're not him, similar to how I can't know your limits better than you since I'm not you. No one knows a person better than themselves.

The basic premise of this wiki involves this very concept, ad infinitum. Characters very routinely misjudge their own power relative to their enemies.

Yes characters can be wrong about how strong they are or how strong their opponent is, but only if there's proof that they're wrong.

The notion that we should accept all statements characters make about their power in the absence of contrary information is, IMO, an incredibly unreliable way to tier characters.

Cool it with the passive aggressiveness. It isn’t helping your case

It was exasperation rather than passive aggressiveness. It's a very odd form of debate. I'm not actually being provided reasoning or solid evidence, I am just being told that per the universal rules of debating, I somehow have a disproportionate burden of proof.

Also quick note: I'm really not sure what to do with DDM's vote because he said he doesn't agree but also that he's not exactly gonna give a detailed response or try to stop the upgrade. So... I'm not gonna do anything with his stance until I actually figure out what to do with that.

You should put him down as a disagree... because he disagrees. How many of the agrees that you tallied gave a detailed response?

 

[CloverDragon03]

SSJB Goku should downscale to 1/2 of him, since not only did a combined attack from Trunks and Vegeta overpower Fusion Zamasu (so each of them should be 1/2 of Fusion Zamasu's AP), but his Kaioken x2 matched and did notable damage to Fusion Zamasu.

All the ToP people who scale to SSJB Goku would scale to the 1/2 of Low 2-C.

On that note, LSSJ Kale would NOT scale since this CRT shows that she shouldn't scale to SSJB Goku

I'm in full agreement here, so essentially just a weaker Low 2-C for those guys. Also in full agreement on Kale's change because steam was coming off of her, she was exhausted after walking through that Kamehameha, SSB Goku didn't seem very harmed by her attacks, and her controlled version of this state is at best SSG Goku level.

Though this raises the question of what to do about Goku's lower SSJ forms. I mean, for example, SSJ2 Goku (although he was being beaten around) took several hits from Ultimate Gohan. SSJ Goku could briefly fight Toppo, although he was inferior. Et cetera, et cetera. Essentially, would all of Goku's forms be Low 2-C?

 

[Eseseso]

Though this raises the question of what to do about Goku's lower SSJ forms. I mean, for example, SSJ2 Goku (although he was being beaten around) took several hits from Ultimate Gohan. SSJ Goku could briefly fight Toppo, although he was inferior. Et cetera, et cetera. Essentially, would all of Goku's forms be Low 2-C?

Not sure, I mean in Episode 131 a tired Base Goku matched the same Jiren who overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I am not denying that Goku has admitted times where he wasn't strong enough, but the conclusion being made from that (that if Goku says he can, he can) is a huge leap from the information that we have, and Goku has in fact been wrong about fights before. More importantly, what do we even think Goku would've done with a Senzu bean? Blasted aimlessly at the sky? It's not even clear if Goku has a mechanism for damaging this form, let alone the appropriate AP to do it.

Well we don't know since he didn't actually have a Senzu Bean on it, but him saying this means he was gonna do something at least.

The basic premise of this wiki involves this very concept, ad infinitum. Characters very routinely misjudge their own power relative to their enemies.

Your argument here is basically just that just because they can be wrong, we can baselessly assume they are wrong even when nothing suggests this.

The notion that we should accept all statements characters make about their power in the absence of contrary information is, IMO, an incredibly unreliable way to tier characters.

I vehemently disagree on this, because when no contradictory information is present, it's usually because the statement is meant to be taken as a fact.

The only reason statements made by characters are not accepted is because contradictory information exists, in one way or another.

You should put him down as a disagree... because he disagrees. How many of the agrees that you tallied gave a detailed response?

He says he's not gonna try and stop the passage of the CRT, yet putting him down as disagreeing does just that.

Also, it's different for people who say they agree, as they're just parroting the OP essentially. Disagreements require an elaboration of why you disagree, at least for one person and then others can say "disagree FRA" if they share the same reasoning.

You don't just have people saying "Disagree" and then refusing to elaborate. If it were that simple, so many threads would just not be passed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not sure, I mean in Episode 131 a tired Base Goku matched the same Jiren who overpowered Golden Frieza and Android 17.

Definitely not, Jiren got even weaker during that bit, as even a tired Final Form Frieza could hurt Jiren

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

I think something that also needs to be discussed is who actually scales to this Low 2-C value, in the event that this is passed.

The question really is: Do SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSR Trunks downscale in some way due to destroying his casual attacks and gradually overpowering him at times? (With the Father-Son Galick Gun and SSB Goku going past his limits)

Pretty much anybody that scales to Pre-UI SSB Goku would become Low 2-C.

 

[Deagonx]

Your argument here is basically just that just because they can be wrong, we can baselessly assume they are wrong even when nothing suggests this.

No. It's that we shouldn't be assuming they are right or that they're wrong.

I vehemently disagree on this, because when no contradictory information is present, it's usually because the statement is meant to be taken as a fact.

The only reason statements made by characters are not accepted is because contradictory information exists, in one way or another.

I think thats a one way ticket to extremely unreliable tiers.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Pretty much anybody that scales to Pre-UI SSB Goku would become Low 2-C.

Might be even more than that, depending on how we handle the lower forms with the examples I shared in a previous post

 

[CloverDragon03]

No. It's that we shouldn't be assuming they are right or that they're wrong.

I think thats a one way ticket to extremely unreliable tiers.

I mean... That's your prerogative. We'll be stuck here all day if we just continue arguing from our personal beliefs

 

[Deagonx]

I mean... That's your prerogative. We'll be stuck here all day if we just continue arguing from our personal beliefs

As far as I see it, upgrading a character based on a single statement like that, without even having an idea of how Goku could even inflict damage on IZ, is not a good basis.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As far as I see it, upgrading a character based on a single statement like that, without even having an idea of how Goku could even inflict damage on IZ, is not a good basis.

But... That's not the only basis. That's support.

 

[Eseseso]

Definitely not, Jiren got even weaker during that bit, as even a tired Final Form Frieza could hurt Jiren

That same Jiren literally overpowered Golden Frieza and made him revert to base by flaring his power.

 

[Golden_Void]

This is a bad example, as Goku was only going off of the power that Jiren had displayed at that moment. In addition, it was more so that Goku was using the Spirit Bomb as a last resort more than anything.

Exactly, and this is the essence of the Zamasu that fought Vegito. Goku had to use kaioken for a weaker form of Zamasu. There's 0 indications that he would have accomplished anything.

So... Not dying to it instantly but still very much being overwhelmed?

That's what it seems like, going by your Gohan and Cell example

Sure.

 

[CloverDragon03]

As far as I see it, upgrading a character based on a single statement like that, without even having an idea of how Goku could even inflict damage on IZ, is not a good basis.

I think you're misunderstanding something: this is far from the only reason why I think Fused Zamasu should be Low 2-C

I've highlighted in my OP how Infinite Zamasu's feats are rather similar to Fused Zamasu's and how the very nature of Infinite Zamasu (simply being the will of Fused Zamasu spreading beyond his physical vessel) makes it unreasonable for it to be stronger. That's combined with the fact that there's zero statements of him getting stronger, in a verse that loves to comment on insane power growth

 

[Deagonx]

I've highlighted in my OP how Infinite Zamasu's feats are rather similar to Fused Zamasu's and how the very nature of Infinite Zamasu (simply being the will of Fused Zamasu spreading beyond his physical vessel) makes it unreasonable for it to be stronger

Unreasonable? This verse hands out form based power ups like candy. Him getting stronger by spreading beyond his physical vessel is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect.

Moreover, we do have an indication of IZ being stronger: he has a feat stronger than anything FZ accomplished.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Exactly, and this is the essence of the Zamasu that fought Vegito. Goku had to use kaioken for a weaker form of Zamasu. There's 0 indications that he would have accomplished anything.

Infinite Zamasu couldn't even put down a tired Base Goku and Base Vegeta when Fused Zamasu nearly one-shot a nearly fully healed Base Goku and Base Vegeta. Even prior to his Power Stressed state, he could knock SSB Vegeta out of his Blue form and did enough damage such that Vegeta could hardly move for a while, whereas Base Vegeta was hit by Infinite Zamasu's blast and could move soon afterwards

 

[CloverDragon03]

Unreasonable? This verse hands out form based power ups like candy. Him getting stronger by spreading beyond his physical vessel is exactly the kind of thing you'd expect.

This is not an argument for IZ actually being stronger, it's just "well it could be." You need certainties, not possibilities.

It's not as if Zamasu's will got any stronger or anything, it just doesn't have a vessel anymore. On the contrary, Zamasu's body containing such a powerful will that could spread throughout the universe and affect space-time is indicative of the fact that Fused Zamasu is Low 2-C

Moreover, we do have an indication of IZ being stronger: he has a feat stronger than anything FZ accomplished.

It's a feat that Fused Zamasu can't do only because his will is kept within his physical vessel.

This is essentially Attack Potency =/= Destructive Capacity

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I disagree. This is pretty important and given the Low 2-C rating coming from Zamasu, I'd like to have this solved now

Yeah, I was thinking a downscale would work. Something like, for example, on Trunks and Vegeta's pages:

Universe level+ (Could overpower Fusion Zamasu's Holy Wrath alongside Trunks/Vegeta, although individually they are considerably weaker)

You could label it as like Atleast 3-A, At Most Universal+ or just At Most Universal+ Or something similar

 

[Deagonx]

This is not an argument for IZ actually being stronger, it's just "well it could be." You need certainties, not possibilities.

But we do. A feat that shows he was stronger in that form.

Your argument is based on possibility. The possibility that he was this strong all along. That's not certainty either.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You could label it as like Atleast 3-A, At Most Universal+ or just At Most Universal+ Or something similar

Very iffy on this, especially because we have a more concrete scale (Vegeta and Trunks individually being 1/2 Fused Zamasu)

 

[CloverDragon03]

But we do. A feat that shows he was stronger in that form.

Your argument is based on possibility. The possibility that he was this strong all along. That's not certainty either.

I have explained with certainty why he was this strong all along. Infinite Zamasu is literally just Fused Zamasu, but without a body.