Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,856
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You ever gonna hit your first?
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Dragon Ball Super Anime: Fused Zamasu and the Rival Danger Scale
- Thread starter CloverDragon03
- Start date
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If this is a threat danger scale, wouldn't Zamasu, who's whole plan is basically purging the cosmos be above Beerus and everyone else by default as none of them actually actively want to destroy the cosmos and have their own personal plans, like Frieza wants to conquer, Beerus is wish washy as **** but he doesn't want to destroy EVERYTHING (because he'll get in shit).
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I always had this question.
Why do we even scale IZ above Fusion Zamasu? That makes 0 sense.
Why do we even scale IZ above Fusion Zamasu? That makes 0 sense.
Nullflowerblush
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Because we need him for Low 2-C scaling.
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Tbh Vegeta's comment is one that I agree with the most. Is there a scan for this?
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I don't understand, null
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My question is : why isn't FZ Low 2-C as well?
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Pretty sure he's Low 2-C by default since he IS the universe. I think that's how the Wiki treats it?
But yeah, IZ's AP doesn't seem to be any stronger than FZ.
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We accept the former.
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I mean restrained Jiren scared Beerus with his casual power, shook the Void when 3 GoD's fighting couldn't, and was stated by Whis to be above Belmod in his heavily restrained state when he pushed back the Spirit Bomb, but whatever...
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- Thread starter
- #53
Oh god what have I woken up to-
Anyways I’ll look through the arguments and formulate a response
Anyways I’ll look through the arguments and formulate a response
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I disagree with this, I don't think the author really knows what he is saying tbh. And again, threat level =/= power level as the OP stated.
Still, this contradicts statements spoken in the DBS Anime about Jiren even in a casual state being above Infinite Zamasu. Jiren was described as equal, if not above the Gods of Destruction where as even in a casual state Whis clearly stated he was stronger than Fusion Zamasu. Beerus also considered Zamasu just a minor annoyance where as he was terrified by Jiren and UIS Goku's power. Zeno was also impressed by their power levels where as considered Zamasu a pest.
Still, this contradicts statements spoken in the DBS Anime about Jiren even in a casual state being above Infinite Zamasu. Jiren was described as equal, if not above the Gods of Destruction where as even in a casual state Whis clearly stated he was stronger than Fusion Zamasu. Beerus also considered Zamasu just a minor annoyance where as he was terrified by Jiren and UIS Goku's power. Zeno was also impressed by their power levels where as considered Zamasu a pest.
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- Thread starter
- #55
Jiren should still be above Fused Zamasu. In fact, I’m not sure why Jiren is being used as counter-evidence. This is before the Universe Survival Saga.
In addition, Beerus never really has an interaction with Fused Zamasu. The most we have is his concern over Infinite Zamasu, which is good support given this was just from his power that was leaking into the present.
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He lost in a beam struggle against Trunks/Vegeta and was getting pummeled by SSJB Goku, so I disagree. Beerus was still acknowledged as stronger than SSJB Goku and Frieza as of the Universal Survival Saga, so I don’t think it’d make sense for Goku to have surpassed him back in the Future Trunks Arc.
I also don’t think Jiren’s hype about being stronger than Beerus would make sense if Beerus got power creeped mid-DBS.
I also don’t think Jiren’s hype about being stronger than Beerus would make sense if Beerus got power creeped mid-DBS.
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you got some problems with this.
first is that in the most current events from the anime and movie continuity, which is the super hero movie, Broly and Jiren are still seen by Goku as the toughest guys he has faced. The fact that he doesn’t put one over the other should mean they are relative regardless of whose weaker ( I don’t want to get into this debate)
Broly is the big issue here, because he managed to insurmountably surpass Blue Goku and Vegeta, who they themselves surpassed UIO Goku from episode 110, who is very objectively superior to fused zamasu.
Then Comes Goku and says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus.
You see, you have to ignore Goku’s statement in order to get this to make sense.
first is that in the most current events from the anime and movie continuity, which is the super hero movie, Broly and Jiren are still seen by Goku as the toughest guys he has faced. The fact that he doesn’t put one over the other should mean they are relative regardless of whose weaker ( I don’t want to get into this debate)
Broly is the big issue here, because he managed to insurmountably surpass Blue Goku and Vegeta, who they themselves surpassed UIO Goku from episode 110, who is very objectively superior to fused zamasu.
Then Comes Goku and says that Broly is probably stronger than Beerus.
You see, you have to ignore Goku’s statement in order to get this to make sense.
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Yeah, back then, Beerus was still officially considered a lot stronger than the SSB's, where as Goku and Vegeta eventually grew to the point where they actually considered Goku Black and Future Zamasu to actually be kinda weak; hence why the fused in the first place. And they still kept up with him well when split, but as Vegito is was pretty stompy. Also, Trunks with his spirit sword still bisected Fusion Zamasu before he became Infinite Zamasu, so Spirit Sword Trunks would also be above Beerus by the statement listed in the OP.
Also, Beerus and Whis could still sense Infinite Zamasu's power level, and I'm sure Beerus' reaction would have been far more freakish if his power level was even his equal let alone his superior.
Also, Beerus and Whis could still sense Infinite Zamasu's power level, and I'm sure Beerus' reaction would have been far more freakish if his power level was even his equal let alone his superior.
Eden_Warlock99
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Didn't Zamasu get stronger or something? He did hold his own against Blue Vegito who should be around Blue Goku's level in base
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There have been rumors going around saying that Beerus has a tendency to just get magically stronger even when all he does is take naps. Like realistically, Goku and Vegeta should have surpassed Beerus a long time ago if we want to take the original now retconned movies seriously, but then the Anime rewrote Beerus as someone who lies about going all out and that he never used 1 percent of his power. Then came ToP where Goku supposedly surpassed Beerus a long time ago, but the movies still have consistent statements about Beerus being very strong by Goku albeit he admits Broly is above Beerus. Though, the manga continuity does take it a step further and imply Goku and Vegeta still have long ways to go before reaching Beerus' tier.
Zamasu does have reactive power level and just gets stronger, but Vegito was still both stronger and/or the better fighter. Hence why we don't consider anyone on par with the Infinite Zamasu key. But the other points still stand.
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- Thread starter
- #62
I’m currently on campus for classes and such so I won’t be able to respond now. That said, I do have some refutations to the proposed counter arguments, especially those about Fused Zamasu’s clashes with Vegeta + Trunks and with Goku. I’ll post my response when I get the time
Nullflowerblush
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There's that quote from him during the manga, as long as I think about destruction the stronger I get, Beerus' powers come directly from the concept of destruction (note, it's not a real concept that I'm mentioned, but the energy of destruction)
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Yeah, this seems to be the the root of the issue. Not any scaling arguments.
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"The form Goku Black and Zamasu reach after merging via the Potara. He is so strong that others cannot even approach him."
Tbh I also think this is hyperbole because it's demonstratively false since it's talking about his power level, but if it's not applicable to the anime I guess there's not an argument to be had then.
Tbh I also think this is hyperbole because it's demonstratively false since it's talking about his power level, but if it's not applicable to the anime I guess there's not an argument to be had then.
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Yeah, he even mentions among gods directly.
That + the other Supreme Kais statement should place as him as being a GoD tier opponent.
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GoD tier=/=Beerus
SirAlex09
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Because it was implied that surpressed Jiren is relative to GoD. And if MZ is weaker than Jiren, then the former can't be stronger than the GoD.
Also it was implied that Beerus is on the stronger GoDs because there is a statement where he considers MUI/UI Goku as possibly stronger than him which is far above surpressed Jiren who in return is stronger than MZ.
The entire scaling chain doesn't work if MZ is stronger than Beerus
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The argument tho, is that IZ scales to beerus and champa in their clash
SirAlex09
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Vegeta never saw Beerus full strength. He only saw Beerus held back state.
SirAlex09
He/Him- 1,170
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I mean...the purpose of the angel is to train them so off screen training isn't far fetched.
Nullflowerblush
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Which, consequently, makes Goku and Vegeta during the "Future" Trunks Saga 2-C. That, or Fusion Zamasu is as powerful as Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren and infinitely held his power back as a show of superiority against his human opponents, even when he was being pushed back and having his body irreparably damaged.Yeah, he even mentions among gods directly.
That + the other Supreme Kais statement should place as him as being a GoD tier opponent.
Or, and hear me out—or, Vegeta has never witnessed the energy of a god beyond Beerus' display during the Battle of Gods, which is, evidently, infinitesimal compared to his full strength. Hell, Vegeta only developed the ability to sense God Ki during his training with Whis leading into the Golden Frieza Saga, and up until the Zero Mortals Plan, he has never been in the vicinity of a god releasing their power and been able to sense said power.
"Vegeta was there when Beerus and Champa were going to fight." Beerus and Champa were warming up. Nothing even implies that the level of power they were releasing at that time was 2-C; the only things Whis and Vados declare is that infighting between Gods of Destruction is forbidden for they would end up destroying the two universes, not that Beerus and Champa had flared up enough to destroy their universes right then and there.
Confidence scaling is not enough to bring Fusion Zamasu up to the level of the Gods of Destruction; doubly so when taking into account the fact that Beerus treated Zamasu as a non-threat; triply so when taking into account the fact that the concept of any warrior surpassing Beerus, even to Toei Animation producers, was unthinkable until Jiren appeared, and even that was unthinkable; quadruply so when taking into account the fact that Goku overpowered Zamasu in a beam struggle.
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This is what I was talking about BTW. Also Whis directly stated if they continued that there would've destroyed the two universes. There is no 'warming up' here to argue for.Yeah, he even mentions among gods directly.
That + the other Supreme Kais statement should place as him as being a GoD tier opponent.
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No, just that he's a clearly intended to be a GoD tier opponent, supported by Gowasu and Shin as well
Also
Unless for some reason SSBKK pre ToP's considered >Zamasu, he would also scale to him being a GoD tier fighter.
I never said Zamasu was 2-C but that he is an individual GoD tier, i.e. "at most 2-C" like in the OP.
Nullflowerblush
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Null, do BOG 2-C
Nullflowerblush
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I don't even like this verse.
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Why do you debate about then?
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