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Dragon Ball Speed Revisions: Summarized.

Matthew_Schroeder

Matthew_Schroeder

VS Battles
Retired
32,358
20,298
THIS IS A STAFF ONLY THREAD

Writing a Summary of what's been going down in the old thread, which has since reached over 300 replies and is kinda unreadable to newcomers.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/676828

^ Here it is if you'd like to read through it all.

Okay, so what has been concluded and what is still being debated:

Massively FTL Buu: Has been agreed to be wrong, as the feat was based on shaky assumptions that are contradicted by the manga proper. When I made the calculation, I assumed that Buu flew across the galaxy like in the anime, but the manga states that Bibidi would seal him, and use his spaceship to drive Buu into his next target, and then release him again. This is why the East Kaioshin was capable of stopping Buu in the end.

Goku Crossing Namek: Has also been rejected, as the claim that Goku was on the other side of the planet only comes from the back-cover of the Viz Media edition of the manga, and doesn't specifically state that Goku was literally at a equatorial radius away. It is also contradicted by the manga proper, as Goku was healing inside Freeza's ship, and Vegeta from Freeza's ship could see Porunga in the horizon, and Goku himself later states that they are nearby when he leaves his healing.

Lightspeed Death Beam: Also being rejected. The argument here is that the Death Beam is a Lightspeed Laser because of three reasons: It is stated to be a "beam of light", it moves at a straight line, and "burns on contact".

However, that isn't exactly true. Piccolo has a vague statement about it being a "flash of light", but numerous other attacks in Dragon Ball have similar descriptions such as King Piccolo's "Eye laser", the Dodonpa and the Red Ribbon's Robot Laser Cannon. The description from the guidebook is also inconclusive, and only comes from the Daizenshuu's spanish version. Thirdly, it doesn't "burn on contact", but rather pierces through the target's body. Something that any concentrated Ki Wave can do (Piccolo's Makankosappo, Tien's Dodonpa, King Piccolo's Eye Lasers, and even Kuririn's Kamehameha when he pierces Vegeta). Finally, the Death Beam produces explosions when hitting the scenery.

The main issue here is:

Piccolo's Moon Feat: The argument here is that this is an outlier, as it is a feat done by Raditz-Era Piccolo that is only surpassed by feats from Dragon Ball Super. No one in all of Classic Dragon Ball ever comes close to reproducing a feat of this magnitude.

However, due to the recently recalculated Piccolo Jr. feat from Hypersonic+ to Massively Hypersonic+, some are not considering it to be an outlier, however both Antoniofier and The Real Cal Howard have problems with the approach.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RadicalMrR/Piccolo's_Ki_Blast

^ Here is the calc.

There are two ways this discussion can finish.

First Way: The Piccolo feat is accepted. If it is, then we would apply a scaling using Goku's Kaioken (Which is confirmed to scale linearly across all stats), which would end with Super Saiyajin Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza at FTL+. The FTL+ rating would continue throughout the Classic Dragon Ball characters, with Top Tiers from the Buu Saga being "At least FTL+, likely higher".

Second Way: Piccolo's feat is rejected. If this happens, then we would use an alternate feat: The speed of First Form Freeza's Supernova, and also apply a scaling that would end with Super Saiyajin Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza at FTL. This would continue upwards Classic DB, and by Buu Saga we would have FTL+ characters.

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/freezas-base-death-ball-speed.33608/

^ Here is the calc. Done by God Movement who is probably the most knowledgeable Dragon Ball debater around.

So let's discuss our course of action.

THIS IS A STAFF ONLY THREAD.
 
Personally, I am heavily leaning towards the second approach. It makes more sense and the speed increase is more gradual and consistent with the series.
 
Personally, i agree with the second approach as well, literally for the reasons Matt states. It does appear to be more consistent with the series.

In my experience, if the power/speed/etc is suddenly a huge gain, it might be worthwhile to consider it an outlier.
 
I would go with the first approach. In the second case, it was clearly a super sluggish ball being used very casually. The whole piccolo's feat is an outlier doesnt make sense since we do not have any combat speeds to indicate that it is an outlier.
 
@TLT1

A lack of feats to compare it to in this case doesn't make it an outlier, it is a feat grossly faster than any done in Dragon Ball. Sure Freeza's Supernova is "sluggish", but this "sluggish" ball showcased Sub-Relativistic+ speeds as it quickly hit a planet.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@TLT1
A lack of feats to compare it to in this case doesn't make it an outlier, it is a feat grossly faster than any done in Dragon Ball. Sure Freeza's Supernova is "sluggish", but this "sluggish" ball showcased Sub-Relativistic+ speeds as it quickly hit a planet.
Click to expand...
The death ball feat is basically half the speed of the moon beam and was shown in very much the next saga. By your logic, even that is an outlier since speeds nowhere near it were shown till dbs.

In any case, it would make sense to work with the moon beam, since the moon beam would be much faster than a sluggish out of battle move used very slowly.
 
@TLT1

Not at all comparable. Freeza is a godlike character compared to literally everyone but his father (And unseen characters not even revealed to exist), with his power being unmatched throughout the universe. Him having such feats is acceptable.

However, a Piccolo who was still grossly weaker than even the lowest class of Freeza's men, warriors so weak they can literally be grown, all classes of Saiyans, Freeza's elite bodyguards, the Ginyu Force and First Form Freeza having a speed feat that is greater than Freeza himself?

That is an outlier. The "Casual" argument only takes you so far.

Also, why are you calling an attack that moves at 11,283,318.145 m/s "slow and sluggish"? Is it because it looks slow in the scene? Beause Cinematic Timing exists...
 
@Matthew

You do know that you are comparing an absolutely sluggish attack used casually vs an attack that is meant for quick speed right? Also IIRC bardock did react to that ball coming right at him even though he wasnt that far away from frieza.

It is sluggish specifically because of the way it is shown compared to every other ki attack, like when it is used against trunks vs the regular ki attacks. And the way it is shown compared to regular ki attacks in other instancees as well (though most of them are in movies).
 
Bardock didn't react to Freeza's Supernova, and once again "sluggish" based solely on visuals and cinematic timing, when it is in fact much faster than the majority of attacks.

Your entire argument is centered around it being "sluggish", when it is in fact extraordinarily fast, and a far more consistent boost in speed than a Raditz-Era Piccolo performing a much better feat.
 
I would appreciate if you could stop quoting large chunks of text, as they spam the page, and make it hard to read. Thank you.
 
@matt:

How is it faster than the other attacks when piccolo's moon beam is shown to be faster. And again it is not shown to be sluggish for no reason at all. it is because it is sluggish compared to regular ki attacks and you can see that when compared to the moon beam.
 
I very much agree with Matt here. The gap between Piccolo and Freeza is far too big to excuse with just "oh, it's a casual and slow attack".
 
Bardock vs Frieza is non-canon as far as I'm aware no? Dragon Ball Minus had none of what was seen in the special.

I'm going to lean towards the first approach, as the new info suggests it is not an outlier (and does work with the gradual increase.)
 
@TLT1

Because other than Piccolo's outlier beam, no Ki attack in ALL of Dragon Ball comes close to Freeza's as far as speed feats go. Piccolo's Beam is faster than Freeza's Supernova, Cell's Kamehameha and Vegeta's Final Flash if you were to calc any of those.
 
@Ever are you sure you're not confusing Minus (As it contradicts Bardock's special) with something else?

@Matt You can't calc the kamehameha or the final flash tho. Isn't the Supernova also in the Sub-Rel range? Unless it was MHS+, the problem seems somewhat exaggerated.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@TLT1
Because other than Piccolo's outlier beam, no Ki attack in ALL of Dragon Ball comes close to Freeza's as far as speed feats go. Piccolo's Beam is faster than Freeza's Supernova, Cell's Kamehameha and Vegeta's Final Flash if you were to calc any of those.
Click to expand...
So a faster moving attack is faster than a ball that is not meant for combat and is clearly shown to be sluggish, and we should ignore the fast moving attack even though it is faster than a sluggish attack even though the slugish attack is not meant to have speed?

its like saying, goku is universal now but he once punched hard yet only a ground below him got shattered so he should be taken much lower than universe level.

It makes absolutely no logical sense
 
@Matt then why did Ever mention it being in the manga? You even mention Bardock not dodging it?

Well it doesn't matter anyways. As in the time Frieza took to charge a simple Supernova, most the troops managed to escape showing how restricted Frieza was there (Comparable to even fodder in speed, and should scale that way.)
 
@SD

There's NO fodder troops there. Look at the video. There's no Bardock either.

@TLT1

"Sluggish"

>Reaches Vegeta in a second or so.

Are you guys arguing what I'm arguing?
 
"So a faster moving attack is faster than a ball that is not meant for combat and is clearly shown to be sluggish, and we should ignore the fast moving attack even though it is faster than a sluggish attack even though the slugish attack is not meant to have speed?"

First of all? What. Seriously, the english in this paragraph is terrible to understand.

Going to try understanding your argument...

"A faster moving attack"

Done by a guy who is significantly weaker than even Raditz, the absolute lowest, bottom of the food chain as far as Freeza's forces are concerned, mmm...

"a ball that is not meant for combat and is clearly shown to be sluggish"

It's not. Reaches the planet in like 1 second of screentime. Also it being "casual and not on combat" doesn't matter.

"we should ignore the fast moving attack"

Exactly, because this attack done by an utmost fodder with a casual power level of 300-something is faster than > attacks done by guy with power level of 530,000.

"even though the slugish attack is not meant to have speed"

It does, tho. Reaches Planet Vegeta is seconds or so, totaling an impressive speed clocking in at Sub-Relativistic Results, Mach 33,000 or so.

Seriously, there is no argument here. Freeza's attack is not depicted as slow at all, and it is slower than Piccolo's beam. Piccolo's beam is the outlier.
 
The point is, frieza attack is shown to be a clearly slow moving attack, just like the spirit bomb. The point is that you are the one who assumes that it is a normal attack in terms of speed even though all indications point to the right opposite.
 
@TLT1

Spirit Bomb isn't a slow-moving attack, stop lying. It's about as fast as Goku's other attacks. Also even if it's a slow Freeza attack you are assuming that it is supressed enough to make it slower than the attacks of a guy who is stomped by raditz.

That's ridiculous.

@SD

Okay, there are minions, neat, but they don't react to it. The scene doesn't show it in the slightest. Freeza throws it, then we see a zoom of it hitting the planet. That's it.
 
You're right, well half right. We see it hitting the planet with no minions around, which means by the time it reaches the planet, they had already reacted and moved far away.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@TLT1
Spirit Bomb isn't a slow-moving attack, stop lying. It's about as fast as Goku's other attacks. Also even if it's a slow Freeza attack you are assuming that it is supressed enough to make it slower than the attacks of a guy who is stomped by raditz.

That's ridiculous.

@SD

Okay, there are minions, neat, but they don't react to it. The scene doesn't show it in the slightest. Freeza throws it, then we see a zoom of it hitting the planet. That's it.
Click to expand...
Yeah its not a slow moving attack, which is why kid buu was needed to be kept down in his place for him to be hit, and it is not slow moving which is why everyone was easily able to react to it, even weaker fighters. Totally doesnt mean that it is slow *sarcarsm over*, also, in the case of the frieza thing, like SD said, hits the planet with little to no minions in the way which means they would have already reacted and move far away
 
@TLT1

Stop using anime as an argument.

It is not much slower than Goku's other feats against Vegeta.

50% Freeza has as much a hard time blocking it as he has with Kaioken x20 Kamehameha.

Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu is not nearly as slow in manga as it is in anime.

@SD

Not at all. We have no indication that the minions reacted to it. The attack doesn't even reach the same general direction as where the minions are.
 
Uh what do you mean? By the time we see the blast reach the core, we're given an image of the planet completely desolate of the soldiers we saw in the beginning. By the time it took the blast to get there, they left.
 
First off, let's keep this civil.

Secondly, it's been stated many times that Dragonball Manga and Dragonball Z are both canon, with Manga being primary source and Z being canon unless it's contridicted in the Manga.
 
@Apa

I get that, but the argument that the Spirit Bomb is slow comes from the anime, where events that last single panels and pages are expanded to sometimes last half an episode.
 
Screenshot 2017-04-19 at 10.28.45
I mean as in the time it took for the blast to get to the planet, they had all left the local space.

@Cal only in the special in this case.
 
@Howard

All the soldiers are also hit with the attack in the Bardock special, yes.

https://youtu.be/5q3Gl7egL3g?t=98

None of them even begin to move out of the way, or even react. Even Bardock can't escape it. While the scene is "slow" (only appears such given the gigantic distances the ball crossed), Freeza's Supernova is waaay to fast for characters who are AT LEAST Raditz-level to react, to say nothing of the strongest Saiyan alive at the time.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Howard
All the soldiers are also hit with the attack in the Bardock special, yes.

https://youtu.be/5q3Gl7egL3g?t=98

None of them even begin to move out of the way, or even react. Even Bardock can't escape it. While the scene is "slow" (only appears such given the gigantic distances the ball crossed), Freeza's Supernova is waaay to fast for characters who are AT LEAST Raditz-level to react, to say nothing of the strongest Saiyan alive at the time.
Click to expand...
>Not able to react

Are you kidding me? Literally as soon as frieza fires a blast the soldier screams at the incoming blast right at him and the rest of the soldieers are alarmed by the blast.

At least watch the clips that you link first
 
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