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Dragon Ball Speed Revisions: Summarized.

"We know that they were in one frame and not the next, what must have happened?"

That Toei was being lazy as always :p. But seriously. Frieza doesn't care about his soldiers and we see them being decimated in another Toei interpretation.
 
@SD

The only possibility is that Toei ****** up. Simple. Don't assume that they have a level of speed not supported by anything else, nor is it shown in the previous and more detailed version of the explosion.

I can say with a straight face that something else happened. They got taken by the attack and the other ones popped out of existence because Toei forgot to draw them.

Terrible example, this isn't comparable at all.
 
@Matt or, once again, as I pointed out, Maybe it's because sub-rel is more consistent than you're letting on?

Also, Don't assume that they have a level of speed not supported by anything else cough, cough the sub-rel feat from Piccolo.

Again, as I pointed out, if we take the previous version over this one, we shouldn't even be able to take the feat either.

Which leads us to At least 5-B 4th form Frieza and At least MHS+...

As for the example, yes, yes it is. In both cases we do not see the action, but know it must have happened.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@SD
The only possibility is that Toei ****** up. Simple. Don't assume that they have a level of speed not supported by anything else, nor is it shown in the previous and more detailed version of the explosion.

I can say with a straight face that something else happened. They got taken by the attack and the other ones popped out of existence because Toei forgot to draw them.

Terrible example, this isn't comparable at all.
Click to expand...
That level of speed is supported by piccolo's feat. The argument being presented by the downgrade side here is that they cannot react to it or dodge it, and when it seems like they might have, you say it is not supported by anything, when in fact piccolo's beeam speed proves it.
 
The real cal howard said:
"We know that they were in one frame and not the next, what must have happened?"
That Toei was being lazy as always :p. But seriously. Frieza doesn't care about his soldiers and we see them being decimated in another Toei interpretation.
Click to expand...
In the other toei interpretation- you can at least them react to it, also consider that in the previous version, the result is an explosion that expands very rapidly and very quickly (too much for them to outrrun).
 
Not at all. There's no proof that the soldiers either dodged Freeza's Supernova, or that they moved back to the ship in quick speeds, and even if they did we don't know how far away most of them were. They were rather close in the more close-up shot, and the very next implies that they were all over the planet which does not make sense.

The assumptions you are making are rather baseless, you just think they all performed a Sub-Relativistic+ feat because you don't see them anymore in a faraway shot of the planet exploding. Nevermind that you don't see Freeza's ship either.
 
  • It doesnt matter if the feat was casual or not
  • A faster character did it
So guess Buu saga characters are MHS+ and Frieza's attack is also an outlier.

Daimao doesnt have a single feat faster then Tao Pai Pai so the Hypersonic feat is an outlier.

Zamasu had a subsonic feat in a time sensitive situation so get those MFTL+ ratings out of there.

The logic that is being used here can be used to downgrade anything that doesnt have a feat supporting it the next arc.
 
Well the close up you mention only had a fraction of the planet shown to begin with which is why you can't see them on such a level. Though if they did move back to the ship in quick speeds it would still result in comparable speeds. Hence why no matter how you put it, it results in comparable soldiers.

The assumption isn't baseless when as I pointed out time and time again, we explicitly see that surprisingly enough, they disappear from the area. Like I've said before, no matter what happened, it results in Sub-Rel, especially when there was only one thing that could have happened.

Once again, pointing out the off-screen and FTE comparison, which can you say why they're not comparable? As it seems pretty blatant to me at least, that they are.
 
@Radical

You misunderstand my argument and made a strawman out of it.

My argument is because Piccolo's feat is a jump in speed not supported at all by the narrative. Gotenks' feat is casual anyways so it has nothing to do. Daimao is clearly established as being faster and is not portrayed as significantly slower in any way. Subsonic Zamasu is clearly the low-end outlier, not the contrary.

As for Piccolo's feat...

Superior characters failed to react to a slower feat done by Freeza, which even in its fastest interpretation is only Sub-Relativistic+
 
@SD

No, it wouldn't result in Sub-Relativistic considering they are only a few hundreds of meters away from the ship.

We also don't see then dodge, or run, or escape. They just popped out of existence for the last shot just like Freeza's ship. What is going on here is that they're just not drawn completely.

Freeza's men surrounding Planet Vegeta is pure nonsense.

Because in a FTE feat a character you usually be fighting another character, and be blitzed by his speed, not being able to keep track of his moment. From his perspective the opponent is akin to being "teleporting" due to the gross distinction in speed.

In this scene...

Freeza throws Supernova at Vegeta's general direction. We don't see anyone dodge or react to it. It hits Vegeta. When it cuts to the explosion we see neither Freeza's ship nor the men anymore.

Your assumptions are:

  • They all returned to the ship in a minimal timeframe
  • They did so over gigantic distances comparable to the distances the Supernova crossed
  • They also dodged the Supernova
None of these are shown nor implied, and are outright contradicted when you look at the more detailed version of Namek's explosion, which is both Bardock and the soldiers failing to react.
 
SomebodyData said:
Wait who failed to react to 1st form Frieza (non-casual)'s attacks?
Click to expand...
Why is it's alledged "casualness" matter? First, the Supernova is Freeza's strongest attack. Secondly it isn't slow at all like it was claimed to be. Thirdly, even if it was casual it makes no sense for a guy weaker than Freeza's weakest men to do an attack faster than it.
 
What is going on here is that they're just not drawn completely.

Yet they managed to draw them in frames prior to this one, one of them having less reason to be drawn anyways. Coincidentally enough, this is an even bigger assumption than what I'm proposing, as you're outright saying something that doesn't have evidence whereas mine has character motive and frames of them actually beginning to move away. By the logic you're showcasing, should calcs with assumed through evidence timeframes not count?

Frieza's men were surrounding Vegeta, how is that nonsense?

Yes but the point is that we, the audience don't see him move. We know he had to have moved by logic, but we don't see it.

If you keep on bringing up the original version, I have to bring back what I pointed out before again and again, until you address and not just leave it be. If we use the original version, then we cannot use the modern version at all period, feat and all.

Why does casualness matter?

Are you serious? In a verse where how calm you are can make you go from Large Star level to Human level, you don't think casualness matters?

Also you didn't answer my question, when did a superior character fail to react to a non-casual 1st form Frieza?
 
RadicalMrR said:
If there is no calc for the moon bust ill redo it.
Click to expand...
The time period itself was based on some falling rocks, but that particular calc is lost now, but iirc lina tried to recalc it a while ago so you can ask him for help
 
Freeza's men surrounding Vegeta is pure nonsense because there is no reason for them to do so, and Freeza's men dodging the Supernova is also pure nonsense since they can't even react to it in the Bardock Special. The quick little flashback in Super is an allusion to that, a scene that also plays in Kai from a special that is indeed canon to the original manga.

What you are implying is that in Super they were surrounding the entire planet for no reason, dodged the ball and also crossed planetary distances back into Freeza's ship in seconds. That is all based entirely on assumptions.
 
@matt Ah, so because its nonsense you decide that despite it literally being on the picture I just showed you, it didn't happen? (It's the one with 2 kudos i believe)

Okay fine, we're using the original version. I'll drop this, and assist in rescaling for you.

Likely 5-A Top Tiers of Frieza Saga, Likely Sub-Rel

At least 5-A Top tiers of Cell Saga (As the 5-A version of the feat was the main point of evidence supporting SS Cell), Likely Rel

Possibly Low 4-C Top Tiers of Buu Saga, At least Rel+.

Does that work with you btw? Or do you want to tweak it a bit?

@Ever how much would it have saved them just drawing a few dots? Heck, they literally drew dots all around the planet a few frames prior.
 
@Matt I said those started dodging at that point

"and frames of them actually beginning to move away."

(Please re-read my posts before you say I lie btw). The rest of the troops (the one around the planet if you would look at the image I mentioned prior) are the ones that matter in this case.

Also uh did Ryop's scans actually happen? Because that would just end this argument once and for all.
 
@SD

The scaling from Freeza's feat has already been done and it ends with FTL+ Buu Saga, actually.

And I'm sorry, I don't think it makes sense for Freeza's troops to circle the planet. It is more likely that they are around Freeza's ship, in front of the planet, but due to perspective they appear to be circling it.

But about the Scaling...

First Form Freeza: At least 0.037c

Second Form Freeza to Final Form (Casual) Freeza: At least 0.037c, likely higher (I would argue that x4 multiplier in speed would be acceptable, but that would be abusing power levels)

Final Form Freeza (50%): 0.74c (Scaling from Kaioken x20)

Final Form Freeza (100%): 1.48c

I believe that by the Cell Games, FTL+ is acceptable.
 
Oh I see what you mean, that makes sense.

Where did you get the 0.037c? We are using the original version no? after all you mentioned it quite a lot, it wouldn't make sense to use it then but not in scaling/feat.
 
Keep the discussion civil without accusations of lying please.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@SD
The scaling from Freeza's feat has already been done and it ends with FTL+ Buu Saga, actually.

And I'm sorry, I don't think it makes sense for Freeza's troops to circle the planet. It is more likely that they are around Freeza's ship, in front of the planet, but due to perspective they appear to be circling it.

But about the Scaling...

First Form Freeza: At least 0.037c

Second Form Freeza to Final Form (Casual) Freeza: At least 0.037c, likely higher (I would argue that x4 multiplier in speed would be acceptable, but that would be abusing power levels)

Final Form Freeza (50%): 0.74c (Scaling from Kaioken x20)

Final Form Freeza (100%): 1.48c

I believe that by the Cell Games, FTL+ is acceptable.
Click to expand...
Hmmm that assumes that base goku after healing is base frieza level, so should it not be at least 0.74C, likely much higher
 
"Hmmm that assumes that base goku after healing is base frieza level, so should it not be at least 0.74C, likely much higher"

We can't go any higher than what Matt is proposing without relying on conjecture and interpretation. Sorry.
 
@SD

The feat is Mach 33,186, which when converted into Speed of Light gives that result.

@TLT1

I agree, and Freeza's second and third forms are a vast increase in all stats.
 
No i mean that the original version of the planet destruction does not give out the same values as the Super one, which as you pointed out is more detailed and etc, hence why you were prioritizing that one over the Super one.
 
Wut is the decision about the Ma junior calc?

Antonio questioned the size of the island and timeframe but I linked both calcs for island size and timeframe, with the former having a view of the island compared to the rest of the DB world so im not sure what else I can doi for him.

Cal said to use ansizing but that is unreliable since Mountain clusters like that are at least 10 km with the old island size. Not to mention toriyama's art is extremely inconsistent from panel to panel.

Just look at how the same stadium changes from these 2 panels
 
Yeah I know Matt, you were pointing out that the previous more detailed version (let's call it the Kai version), should be more reliable so why are you scaling based on the Super version?

@Rad personally I think its fine how it is.
 
@SD

Because it is the most recent depiction of the feat in Super and the one that wields better results in both speed and AP.
 
Yes I get that, but we can't simply change from version to version as I believe you did now. When in regards to all verses, except for composite profiles, we can only select one.

Er anyways, doesn't matter now. Let's just continue with what we were doing. BTW, is RYOP's scans being counted?
 
Have you reached any conclusions here?
 
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