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Dragon Ball Possible Upgrades
- Thread starter Apex_Predator_GX
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Gohan was literally holding himself back tho.
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He was using 50% through most of the clash, but at the last second when Vegeta distracted him, Gohan did go all out which is what overwhelmed the Solar Kamahamaha and vaporized Cell.
Eden_Warlock99
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with a one hand kamehamehaDarkDragonMedeus said:
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No.GojiBoyForever said:
He was legitimately weakened and helpless, and with Vegeta's distraction, he received a boost that allowed him to put forth "his strongest power". This is stated in the Daizenshuu, too.
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False.Eminiteable said:
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Can someone for the love of God reduce the size of that image?
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Which lowered his power, yes. He then got a rage boost that put forth his true power. He never defeated Cell with 50% of his power, that's blatant disinformation.BlastX said:
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Piccolo stated that Gohan's ki had indeed lowered from Cell's attack, so it wasn't just psychological or something. Gohan did get weaker, meaning he'd need a rage boost to go back to his previous level.
The Daizenshuu also states the Kamehameha that killed Cell was Gohan's strongest power, suggesting it was more powerful than his previous SSJ2.
The Daizenshuu also states the Kamehameha that killed Cell was Gohan's strongest power, suggesting it was more powerful than his previous SSJ2.
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The plot during the final battle with Super Perfect Cell was that Gohan was distracted because he was sad about his father dying. And Cell surprised attack him while his guard was down, so he was briefly back to his old self of his timidity being something holding him back, hence why he initially struggled against SPC. But Goku supported him and said he can win easily if he just goes all out. But after Vegeta distracted him and Goku stood by his side, he regained his confidence and was able to go all out and turn the tables on Cell.
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Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: "Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you'll definitely win! Absolutely!"
Goha: "B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…"
[ ]
Goku: "That's alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!"
Gohan is not confident because he has lost more than half of his power. But Goku blatantly says that's all he needs to win, he just has to believe in himself.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: "It no use…! Gohan's ki is weaker after all…"
Piccolo senses that Gohan's ki is still weaker.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell's Kamehamehas clash
Goku: "Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain't putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"
Gohan: "I'm doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"
Goku: "Somewhere in your mind you're thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don't worry about it! We'll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"
Goku also notices it and figures out that Gohan is still holding back because he is worried about the damage to Earth. He tells Gohan to unleash all his power out at once and not worry about the damage which can be fixed with the dragon balls.
It was at that moment when Cell was distracted by Vegeta and Gohan got the chance to use his full power, while his ki was less than half. So he did defeat Cell with less than 50% of his power which is also consistent with the utter godstomp he casually unleashed on Perfect Cell when he first transformed into SSJ2. Gohan wasn't raging out in the scene and there was no rage boost involved or even hinted by any kind of context.
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: "Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you'll definitely win! Absolutely!"
Goha: "B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…"
[ ]
Goku: "That's alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!"
Gohan is not confident because he has lost more than half of his power. But Goku blatantly says that's all he needs to win, he just has to believe in himself.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: "It no use…! Gohan's ki is weaker after all…"
Piccolo senses that Gohan's ki is still weaker.
Chapter: 416 (DBZ 222), P7.2, P8.1-2
Context: as Gohan and Cell's Kamehamehas clash
Goku: "Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain't putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"
Gohan: "I'm doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"
Goku: "Somewhere in your mind you're thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don't worry about it! We'll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"
Goku also notices it and figures out that Gohan is still holding back because he is worried about the damage to Earth. He tells Gohan to unleash all his power out at once and not worry about the damage which can be fixed with the dragon balls.
It was at that moment when Cell was distracted by Vegeta and Gohan got the chance to use his full power, while his ki was less than half. So he did defeat Cell with less than 50% of his power which is also consistent with the utter godstomp he casually unleashed on Perfect Cell when he first transformed into SSJ2. Gohan wasn't raging out in the scene and there was no rage boost involved or even hinted by any kind of context.
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Just so there's no disinformation or Gohan inflation here.
> Also before he got crippled, Gohan was sure that he could be Super Perfect Cell (he wasn't even nervous)
Gohan admitted that he underestimated Cell later.
> Also before he got crippled, Gohan was sure that he could be Super Perfect Cell (he wasn't even nervous)
Gohan admitted that he underestimated Cell later.
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Manga > Guide.
Also guide only says he puts forth his strongest power. That was in fact his strongest power while he was at less than 50% of his power, which was also the strongest power unleashed by him in the entire fight where he was holding back all the time.
Also guide only says he puts forth his strongest power. That was in fact his strongest power while he was at less than 50% of his power, which was also the strongest power unleashed by him in the entire fight where he was holding back all the time.
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The manga never states Gohan remained at 50%. Considering Cell was casually toying and slaughtering said Gohan, trying to legitimately pretend Gohan killed Cell while in that level of power is kinda off at best.
And second, in the Boo Saga Gohan implies he killed Cell while amped.
Finally, I believe we should avoid cherrypicking the guide entry. It's clear what it is trying to say.
And second, in the Boo Saga Gohan implies he killed Cell while amped.
Finally, I believe we should avoid cherrypicking the guide entry. It's clear what it is trying to say.
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Cell was never toying with SSJ2 Gohan. Even with less than half of his power Gohan was matching Cell's full charged kamehameha and overpowered once he stopped holding back due to the fear of damaging the Earth.
When was that? Scan?
Yeah, it's pretty obvious what it is saying as I literally copy-pasted the statements. No cherrypicking is being done here.
When was that? Scan?
Yeah, it's pretty obvious what it is saying as I literally copy-pasted the statements. No cherrypicking is being done here.
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AKM Sama is making sense here.
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Gohan's victory over Cell was pure luck (in fact, I personally believe Cell was stronger than even full-power Gohan, but that isn't strictly necessary). Cell was toying around with him by drawing out and holding back. He only won because of the momentary distraction provided by Vegeta + him unleashing his "true" power at the same time, nothing more, nothing less.
The fact that 50% Gohan <=> Cell is even being argued is ridiculous considering what happened moments before. Cell casually shattered 100% Gohan's arm with a blast meant to kill the fodder-tier Vegeta, and right after that happens Gohan admits that Cell's power has gone up WAY more than he had ever dreamed of. This was also Gohan using his full speed, since he was desperate to save Vegeta, making the anti-feat even worse.
Goku states that there is no one in the world capable of winning against Gohan if he unleashes the power used against Cell:
The context is really obvious.
Also, this:
The fact that 50% Gohan <=> Cell is even being argued is ridiculous considering what happened moments before. Cell casually shattered 100% Gohan's arm with a blast meant to kill the fodder-tier Vegeta, and right after that happens Gohan admits that Cell's power has gone up WAY more than he had ever dreamed of. This was also Gohan using his full speed, since he was desperate to save Vegeta, making the anti-feat even worse.
Goku states that there is no one in the world capable of winning against Gohan if he unleashes the power used against Cell:
- Goku: "Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won't lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…"
The context is really obvious.
Also, this:
- Goku: "Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain't putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"
- Gohan: "I'm doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"
- Goku: "Somewhere in your mind you're thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don't worry about it! We'll undo the damage with the dragonballs!
- 1. Gohan is not truly using his full power. He was holding back "for the sake of the Earth", meaning the 50% power statement is bullshit. The 50% was just the power he was capable of accessing before being psychologically amped.
- 2. That Gohan was using his "full 50% power", but it was not the same thing as he showed in the final moment where he unleashed all of his ki, since Goku states that "explosive power" inside Gohan is superior to the "full force" Gohan claimed to be putting out at that moment, which also means the "strongest power" statement from the Daizenshuu can only be talking about his literal strongest power ever, not the "weak" strongest power.
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> There are people who legitimately believe 50% Gohan "matched" Cell in any shape or form
What the flying ****. You have to destroy the entire context to even remotely start suggesting that. If anything, Super Perfect Cell is stronger than 100% Gohan. Aside from having nearly one-shotted him, Gohan also stated in the Boo Arc that, had he put out his rage power, he might have been capable of defeating Initial Fat Boo. Meanwhile, Dabura, who is equal to Super Perfect Cell, thinks Fat Boo's initial power is a load of trash, and this is shown not to be an arrogant statement since Boo has to power up before attacking Dabura.
So this means SSJ2 Kid Gohan "might" defeat Initial Boo, while Cell would fodderize.
What the flying ****. You have to destroy the entire context to even remotely start suggesting that. If anything, Super Perfect Cell is stronger than 100% Gohan. Aside from having nearly one-shotted him, Gohan also stated in the Boo Arc that, had he put out his rage power, he might have been capable of defeating Initial Fat Boo. Meanwhile, Dabura, who is equal to Super Perfect Cell, thinks Fat Boo's initial power is a load of trash, and this is shown not to be an arrogant statement since Boo has to power up before attacking Dabura.
So this means SSJ2 Kid Gohan "might" defeat Initial Boo, while Cell would fodderize.
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What fight?BlastX said:
Dabura said he was just getting a feel of Gohan's power, meaning he was holding back. To make things worse, Vegeta stated that Gohan was "pathetic" and that he was "obviously gonna lose" against that same Dabura.
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Also, as Paradox said:
Boo has to "power up explosively" before attacking Dabura, which suggests Dabura's assessment was correct:
- Gohan: "…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn't seem like so much so that there's nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…"
- Dabra: "I don't know why, but it seems we failed…I thought [Boo] had finally appeared, but it's just some stupid-looking raw garbage, without brains or power…"
Boo has to "power up explosively" before attacking Dabura, which suggests Dabura's assessment was correct:
- Gohan: "It-it rose…Majin Boo's ki rose explosively…He's str-strong…Too strong…This is unbelievable…"
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The Kamehameha amps your regular power.
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So?Zamasu Chan said:
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So?
So Gohan loosing 50% of his power is irrelevant if a Kamehameha that multiplies his power can overpower SP Cell. The Kamehameha > 50% Gohan.
So Gohan loosing 50% of his power is irrelevant if a Kamehameha that multiplies his power can overpower SP Cell. The Kamehameha > 50% Gohan.
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This thread has been derailed too far. We're supposed to be discussing the afterlife and the living world.
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So let's wrangle this thread back on topic. Do the Afterlife and World of the Kais make Universe 7 a 2-C structure?
For: The only method we've seen the Afterlife be accessed is via teleporation/warp. The World of the Kais is explicitly stated to be inaccessable without the highest form of teleportation in one of the guides.
Against: No explicit statements of the Afterlife and World of the Kais being separate space-time continuums.
Point of Contention 1: Time in the Afterlife. Does time in the Afterlife flow the same as in the living universe, flow at a different rate than the living universe, or not exist at all?
Point of Contention 2: Visual representations of the universe. What we're shown when Whis talks about the universes and the view of each universe from Zeno's Palace in the anime seems to contradict Toriyama's art and the art in the manga.
For: The only method we've seen the Afterlife be accessed is via teleporation/warp. The World of the Kais is explicitly stated to be inaccessable without the highest form of teleportation in one of the guides.
Against: No explicit statements of the Afterlife and World of the Kais being separate space-time continuums.
Point of Contention 1: Time in the Afterlife. Does time in the Afterlife flow the same as in the living universe, flow at a different rate than the living universe, or not exist at all?
Point of Contention 2: Visual representations of the universe. What we're shown when Whis talks about the universes and the view of each universe from Zeno's Palace in the anime seems to contradict Toriyama's art and the art in the manga.
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Just so there's no misinformation Imma address it real quick.
Besides being cocky and always holding his true power back, in a desperate attempt to save Vegeta, Gohan gravely underestimated Cell's increased power.
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell's attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: "Cell's power has gone up more than I thought…"
So the point about Gohan being gravely injured by a casual blast meant to kill Vegeta is invalid since Gohan wasn't even using his full power at that time. And the extent of his true power and the reason for not using it was revealed moments later, as I already pointed out before.
>"Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have."
Clearly referring to the moment when Gohan got angry and drew out the power of SSJ2, not his kamehameha. An angered Gohan would decimate anyone, like Goku saw many times against Raditz and Cell.
Literally, all the context and the statements have been spoon-fed as clearly as the light of day. The counter argument is coming from either wilful ignorance and incredulity or misinterpretation, cherrypicking and twisting of statements and context.
Besides being cocky and always holding his true power back, in a desperate attempt to save Vegeta, Gohan gravely underestimated Cell's increased power.
Chapter: 414 (DBZ 220), P14.2
Context: after getting hit by Cell's attack while saving Vegeta
Gohan: "Cell's power has gone up more than I thought…"
So the point about Gohan being gravely injured by a casual blast meant to kill Vegeta is invalid since Gohan wasn't even using his full power at that time. And the extent of his true power and the reason for not using it was revealed moments later, as I already pointed out before.
>"Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have."
Clearly referring to the moment when Gohan got angry and drew out the power of SSJ2, not his kamehameha. An angered Gohan would decimate anyone, like Goku saw many times against Raditz and Cell.
Literally, all the context and the statements have been spoon-fed as clearly as the light of day. The counter argument is coming from either wilful ignorance and incredulity or misinterpretation, cherrypicking and twisting of statements and context.
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I intend absolutely no offense, but this is literally the first time in all my years debating this franchise seeing someone who believes, without trolling, that 50% Gohan wouldn't be one-shotted by Cell.
> Besides being cocky and always holding his true power back, in a desperate attempt to save Vegeta, Gohan gravely underestimated Cell's increased power.
This is a self-debunking point. Gohan was flying at full speed in his desperate bid to save Vegeta, thus meaning he was at full power in order to be capable of flying faster (since faster flight requires ki).
Him underestimating Cell hat's literally everyone's point and you're acting as if it backed up your view. It does not. Gohan was not expecting to be hit by that blast. Why? Because he was at full power and full speed, so he thought it'd be a casual trip to outpace it. Instead, he got punked and had his arm shattered casually by Cell.
Simple as that. Cell is either equal to Gohan or stronger. Not weaker.
Oh, and just to make it clear, Gohan holding back is headcanon and is not stated anywhere, either, nor does it make any sense.
> Clearly referring to the moment when Gohan got angry and drew out the power of SSJ2, not his kamehameha. An angered Gohan would decimate anyone, like Goku saw many times against Raditz and Cell.
Goku stated that Angry Gohan is Gohan with all his hidden power drawn out. The Daizenshuu states that, during the KHH blast, Gohan "put forth all his latent energy into one burst", so yes, Gohan was angry.
And I've already addressed all the statements you used as evidence in my other post. Can you post anything against that?
> Literally, all the context and the statements have been spoon-fed as clearly as the light of day.
You're the first person I have ever met to believe this, so it's nowhere near as clear as you think it is.
> Besides being cocky and always holding his true power back, in a desperate attempt to save Vegeta, Gohan gravely underestimated Cell's increased power.
This is a self-debunking point. Gohan was flying at full speed in his desperate bid to save Vegeta, thus meaning he was at full power in order to be capable of flying faster (since faster flight requires ki).
Him underestimating Cell hat's literally everyone's point and you're acting as if it backed up your view. It does not. Gohan was not expecting to be hit by that blast. Why? Because he was at full power and full speed, so he thought it'd be a casual trip to outpace it. Instead, he got punked and had his arm shattered casually by Cell.
Simple as that. Cell is either equal to Gohan or stronger. Not weaker.
Oh, and just to make it clear, Gohan holding back is headcanon and is not stated anywhere, either, nor does it make any sense.
> Clearly referring to the moment when Gohan got angry and drew out the power of SSJ2, not his kamehameha. An angered Gohan would decimate anyone, like Goku saw many times against Raditz and Cell.
Goku stated that Angry Gohan is Gohan with all his hidden power drawn out. The Daizenshuu states that, during the KHH blast, Gohan "put forth all his latent energy into one burst", so yes, Gohan was angry.
And I've already addressed all the statements you used as evidence in my other post. Can you post anything against that?
> Literally, all the context and the statements have been spoon-fed as clearly as the light of day.
You're the first person I have ever met to believe this, so it's nowhere near as clear as you think it is.
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I mean, sure, but the thing about Cell is that he was clearly holding back in order to draw out Gohan's agony and terror.ByAsura said:
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We don't use multipliers, and obviously, SSJ is like more than 100x of an AP multiplier during this time period. Being over 1024 Kilofoe in SSJ2 when SSJ1 was simply High 4-C and not even 4-B or 22.4 Foe is the math.
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