Dragon Ball Manga - Super Perfect Cell's Power

[CiscoTheSoto]

I would like to make this thread in order to discuss Super Perfect Cell's power. It was decided that SSJ2 Gohan still scales above Super Perfect Cell due to losing half his power when his arm was broken protecting Vegeta. However, I believe this logic does not fully hold up, and I'd like to give my reasons, as well as evidence provided by official statements.

When Cell easily overpowered Vegeta, he attacked him using a casual, uncharged ki blast. This casual ki blast was enough to break Gohan's arm. In the manga, Cell admitted immediately after that he was done playing around, which implies that the blast he used to try and kill Vegeta wasn't his full power. Gohan later internally notes that Cell had grown much more powerful than he anticipated, further implying that Cell was stronger and that he had been cocky with his prior statement believing he could take on Super Perfect Cell easily.

However, all that's really just a hotpot for interpretation and debate full of poison that I don't really want to see. The main piece of evidence that I'm going to use is the Daizenshu statement which says that Super Perfect Cell became the strongest being in the universe. Here's the untranslated version.

Untranslated versions of images for manga are seen as higher evidence than translated versions because the potential for error in translation, and many Japanese translators have confirmed that this statement says Cell became the strongest, basically confirming that Super Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. Here's a thread from another website where this was debated and proven.

Another statement was made in the Dragon Box booklet, a series of large elaborate DVD set boxes created by Toei, which states that Super Perfect Cell had power equal or greater than SSJ2 Gohan. Here's the image:

During the beam clash, Gohan was struggling for most of the battle, and I believe the main reason he won was both a combination of Cell being distracted by Vegeta, but primarily the surge of emotion he experienced. Gohan has explicitly been shown on multiple occasions to grow dramatically in power whenever he feels enraged, and I believe this is just another example of Gohan's anger exploding to deliver the final burst of energy he needed to defeat Super Perfect Cell.

Overall, I believe that the official statements should provide enough evidence to support the idea that Super Perfect Cell had become stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, if only by a marginal amount.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Nobody respond to this, please.

My classes end at 3:20 PM (an hour and thirty minutes away), and I arrive home at around 3:40 PM.
I have to get in on this, and I cannot access my Drive with the scans in them until I get home.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Understood.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

When Cell easily overpowered Vegeta, he attacked him using a casual, uncharged ki blast. This casual ki blast was enough to break Gohan's arm. In the manga, Cell admitted immediately after that he was done playing around, which implies that the blast he used to try and kill Vegeta wasn't his full power.

Cell launched the blast at Vegeta with the intent to kill him, evidently frustrated by his sudden assault. Cell was fully intending on expunging Vegeta from existence. This blast may not have been as powerful as the Solar Kamehameha, but this was anything but casual. Its "enough fooling around" was a declaration of letting loose and getting the deed over with, rather than Cell going from 1% to 100% or anything like that. That being said, yes, the blast broke Gohan's harm and cut his power in half, a tremendous feat. That being said, though...

Gohan later internally notes that Cell had grown much more powerful than he anticipated, further implying that Cell was stronger and that he had been cocky with his prior statement believing he could take on Super Perfect Cell easily.

Yes, Gohan was arrogant and unprepared. He was unaware of how powerful Cell had gotten after its resurrection, and he was visibly shocked by the power that the blast had, indicating that he dove into the crossfire without adjusting his own strength to properly defend himself.

Here's a thread from another website where this was debated and proven.

This is incredibly compelling evidence pointing towards Cell being more powerful than Gohan at the time.
At the same time, though, the Daizenshuu 2 also states this...




...which would undeniably place the Father-Son Kamehameha, which Gohan barely charged up while running on less than half of his normal strength with Piccolo even noting that his Ki was far too weak to challenge Cell, above the Solar Kamehameha, which Cell had charged up long enough to generate enough Ki to destroy the solar system, which Cell itself considered a tremendous feat on its end.

Although, then again, the Daizenshuu 2 is not exactly the most reliable. On two separate occasions, the Daizenshuu 2 claimed that Goku transferred his own power, in his base form, to Gohan, which is what allowed Gohan to defeat Cell, which is not only contradicted by the original manga but also the Daizenshuu 2 itself, twice and the Daizenshuu 7, thrice...

...the daizenshuu 2 also claimed that frieza went 100% from the start of his battle with goku for some reason-

Another statement was made in the Dragon Box booklet, a series of large elaborate DVD set boxes created by Toei, which states that Super Perfect Cell had power equal or greater than SSJ2 Gohan. Here's the image:

The Dragon Box booklets are booklets that come packaged... with the Dragon Boxes, which are DVD box sets of the TV anime. In the TV anime, Cell has far more wiggle room for a statement like this to be considered valid, as during the anime rendition of the battle, Cell was not only pressuring and eventually overpowering Gohan, but [he] was also dealing with the combined assaults of the other Z-Fighters present, which was not present in the original manga.

By all consistent accounts, Gohan...

1. With zero confidence in himself
2. With less than half of his normal strength remaining
3. With a broken arm
4. With a relatively off-the-cuff attack
5. While holding himself back

...kept Cell at bay long enough for Goku to deliver a few words of inspiration and for Vegeta to recover from Cell nearly swatting him into near-consciousness and nearly blowing away and assist in the struggle before instantly bulldozing through its Kamehameha after drawing out his full power.

"Cell was off-guard."
Cell was in the middle of a beam struggle.

Gohan, with less than half of his full power and a broken, bleeding arm weighing him down, is still powerful enough to drill through its most powerful and concentrated Kamehameha.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Cell launched the blast at Vegeta with the intent to kill him, evidently frustrated by his sudden assault. Cell was fully intending on expunging Vegeta from existence. This blast may not have been as powerful as the Solar Kamehameha, but this was anything but casual. Its "enough fooling around" was a declaration of letting loose and getting the deed over with, rather than Cell going from 1% to 100% or anything like that. That being said, yes, the blast broke Gohan's harm and cut his power in half, a tremendous feat. That being said, though...

Yea, like I said that's also debatable. Even so, the fact that a casual blast could break his arm is telling, given that attacks against equally strong opponents in Dragon Ball don't usually do that much damage.

Yes, Gohan was arrogant and unprepared. He was unaware of how powerful Cell had gotten after its resurrection, and he was visibly shocked by the power that the blast had, indicating that he dove into the crossfire without adjusting his own strength to properly defend himself.

This is incredibly compelling evidence pointing towards Cell being more powerful than Gohan at the time.
At the same time, though, the Daizenshuu 2 also states this...




...which would undeniably place the Father-Son Kamehameha, which Gohan barely charged up while running on less than half of his normal strength with Piccolo even noting that his Ki was far too weak to challenge Cell, above the Solar Kamehameha, which Cell had charged up long enough to generate enough Ki to destroy the solar system, which Cell itself considered a tremendous feat on its end.

The Father-Son Kamehameha does not reflect Gohan's regular SSJ2 power. It reflects his anger-fueled SSJ2 power, as I stated before.

Although, then again, the Daizenshuu 2 is not exactly the most reliable. On two separate occasions, the Daizenshuu 2 claimed that Goku transferred his own power, in his base form, to Gohan, which is what allowed Gohan to defeat Cell, which is not only contradicted by the original manga but also the Daizenshuu 2 itself, twice and the Daizenshuu 7, thrice...

...the daizenshuu 2 also claimed that frieza went 100% from the start of his battle with goku for some reason-

All the links you showed me from Daizenshuu about Gohan don't contradict one another. Goku could be both telepathically communicating with Gohan and lending him his strength, as Goku has shown the ability to take energy as far away as other planets to make the Spirit Bombs, not to mention he had King Kai helping him. Also, the original manga doesn't explicitly contradict that statement either. Goku could just as easily have been encouraging his son to push harder and make Gohan believe that he had more power than he believed himself to have.

The Dragon Box booklets are booklets that come packaged... with the Dragon Boxes, which are DVD box sets of the TV anime. In the TV anime, Cell has far more wiggle room for a statement like this to be considered valid, as during the anime rendition of the battle, Cell was not only pressuring and eventually overpowering Gohan, but [he] was also dealing with the combined assaults of the other Z-Fighters present, which was not present in the original manga.

By all consistent accounts, Gohan...

1. With zero confidence in himself
2. With less than half of his normal strength remaining
3. With a broken arm
4. With a relatively off-the-cuff attack
5. While holding himself back

...kept Cell at bay long enough for Goku to deliver a few words of inspiration and for Vegeta to recover from Cell nearly swatting him into near-consciousness and nearly blowing away and assist in the struggle before instantly bulldozing through its Kamehameha after drawing out his full power.

"Cell was off-guard."
Cell was in the middle of a beam struggle.

Gohan, with less than half of his full power and a broken, bleeding arm weighing him down, is still powerful enough to drill through its most powerful and concentrated Kamehameha.

I've made the point that Gohan was only able to overpower Cell's Kamehameha due to a surge of emotion he experienced, not because he was naturally more powerful. Gohan has been shown on multiple occasions to be capable of experiencing rapid boosts of strength due to emotion, something that has not been seen with other fighters in the series. In that very arc, that was shown when SSJ Vegeta became enraged over Trunks' death and tried to finish Cell off, but it didn't increase his power or give him the strength he needed to even scratch Super Perfect Cell.

When Gohan fought against Nappa, the anger over the death of Piccolo managed to raise his power level enough to have Nappa get serious, whereas before Gohan could do nothing against Nappa. On Namek, enraged over Krillin being stabbed, he assaulted Second Form Frieza with a barrage of punches and Ki attacks which Frieza himself admitted hurt him a little, whereas before he was only believed to be capable of fighting First Form Frieza. Later on in the battle he became more enraged when Piccolo was being tortured and attacked Third Form Frieza, forcing him to get serious to deflect Gohan's attacks, whereas he was quickly defeated before by Second Form Frieza. The point I'm making is that in those moments of anger, Gohan's power drastically increase beyond their limits by several times, and this is what happened against Cell during the beam struggle. That is not evidence that Gohan's regular SSJ2 power is above Super Perfect Cell's power.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Nothing in the original text or any supplementary sources suggests that Gohan experienced a rage boost.
Everything explicitly states that all Gohan did in that instant was release 100% of his remaining strength.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, most of those statements are actually having the Anime adaptation in mind and not the original manga. Gohan kind of reverted back to his old state of mentally restricting himself from using his full power at least until Goku's words and Vegeta's distraction came in.

 

[Firestorm808]

Since there isn't a proposal to revise on profiles, are you okay with moving this to the general discussion?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Since there isn't a proposal to revise on profiles, are you okay with moving this to the general discussion?

Sure, but I don't know how to do that, unless admins have that ability.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thread has been moved.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Yeah, most of those statements are actually having the Anime adaptation in mind and not the original manga. Gohan kind of reverted back to his old state of mentally restricting himself from using his full power at least until Goku's words and Vegeta's distraction came in.

Why would Gohan suddenly restrict himself again? He seemed primed and ready to kill Super Perfect Cell when he returned, exactly the same mentality he had when he was fighting Perfect Cell. Though in regards to the other point, I guess it is true that the anime added some additional dialogue and scenes to the final beam clash, which gives more proof that Gohan's final attack was rage-based.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Gohan was holding back, and after Vegeta arrived, he unleashed his remaining power in one burst.

Rage boosts and outbursts that draw out his potential are not factors here, as his transformation into a Super Saiyan 2 was the pinnacle of said outbursts. His dormant power was already continuously being drawn out to the surface.

1. "Hang on, Gohan!!! Hang on!!! You haven't used all your power yet!!! Let it rip!!!"; "I'm doing my best!!! I... can't do anymore..."; "You're holding back!! Trying not to destroy the planet!!! Let go!!! The Dragon Balls can fix it!!!" / "Hang on! Hang on, Gohan! You ain’t putting out all your power yet! Make your power explode!"; "I’m doing it at full force…! Any more than this is…"; "Somewhere in your mind you’re thinking of the damage to the Earth! Don’t worry about it! We’ll undo the damage with the dragonballs!"
2. "Cell tried to blow away the entire Earth, but a heartbroken Gohan is encouraged by Goku in the afterlife, and in his Kamehameha struggle with Cell he puts forth his strongest power."
3. "During the battle with Cell, he won with a Kamehameha that had all his might behind it."
4. "It looked like Gohan was being pushed back by the Kamehameha that Cell fired, but with Goku's advice he unleashes all his ki in one burst!"

Why would Gohan suddenly restrict himself again?

Fear, guilt, the worry that he may destroy the Earth with his power.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I just want to point out that the same quote from the Dragon Book that says Cell was greater than or equal to Gohan also says he was roughly to Gohan during their whole clash. Mind you, this is the same Gohan that had less than half his ki and was holding back.

So, what else could the guide mean by saying Cell had power >= Gohan? Let's look at the quote:

Cell returns to Earth with power beyond his Perfect Form, a power equal to or greater than that possessed by Gohan.

While the statement could refer to Cell when it says "a power", it could also mean the Super Perfect form itself, and it's a power greater than what Gohan possesses, that being Super Saiyan 2. This is fairly similar to his statement of receiving a power up like Son Gohan's.

The Dragon Book also says Cell only got his chance to defeat Gohan after he broke his arm, implying he only could win once Gohan was weakened.

So, even in the Anime continuity and the Dragon Book, Gohan's superiority is seemingly supported.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Eh, I still believe that the Daizenshu statements should take precedent, especially with the statements that the Father-Son Kamehameha is done using Gohan's power and the power channeled through the spirit of Goku, which basically states that it wasn't all Gohan's power that was being used in the Kamehameha. You used other Daizenshu statements to supposedly contradict the statement, but all those statements say is that Gohan used all his might or that he was encouraged by Goku, which doesn't explicitly contradict the other statement. Gohan could both use the fullest extent of his power and be given extra power by Goku. The casual manner in which Cell broke Gohan's arm is still remarkable, and I don't believe if they were equal Cell would've been capable of breaking SSJ2 Gohan's arm. It's not like Gohan was undefended: it's the same principle for when Piccolo rushed to save Gohan from Nappa.

Again, I didn't know that the manga's beam clash was shorter, and that it didn't include the extra dialogue or the rest of the Z-Fighters going to try and stop Cell as well, but I still believe his final clash was emotion fueled and thus had greater power than normal.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You used other Daizenshu statements to supposedly contradict the statement, but all those statements say is that Gohan used all his might or that he was encouraged by Goku, which doesn't explicitly contradict the other statement.

"Goku gave Gohan enough power to beat Cell" is contradicted by "Gohan defeated Cell by putting forth all of his power x4".

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I just want to point out that the same quote from the Dragon Book that says Cell was greater than or equal to Gohan also says he was roughly to Gohan during their whole clash. Mind you, this is the same Gohan that had less than half his ki and was holding back.

So, what else could the guide mean by saying Cell had power >= Gohan? Let's look at the quote:

While the statement could refer to Cell when it says "a power", it could also mean the Super Perfect form itself, and it's a power greater than what Gohan possesses, that being Super Saiyan 2. This is fairly similar to his statement of receiving a power up like Son Gohan's.

Wait, what're you trying to say? All that's implying is that Super Perfect Cell is indeed stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, or am I misconstruing something?

The Dragon Book also says Cell only got his chance to defeat Gohan after he broke his arm, implying he only could win once Gohan was weakened.

That doesn't imply that he could only win when Gohan was weakened. All this says is that he sees a chance to defeat Gohan more easily than if he'd had to fight him at full-strength, and he'll use that chance.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

but I still believe his final clash was emotion fueled and thus had greater power than normal

Yup it was fueled with emotion. His emotions were holding him back from going to 100% power just like Goku said. Gohan scales to it.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

Wait, what're you trying to say? All that's implying is that Super Perfect Cell is indeed stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, or am I misconstruing something?

I'm saying that the same scan from the Dragon Book that supposedly says Cell >= Gohan also says Cell ~ Weakened Gohan, and that the former part can be interpreted as a statement about their forms (SPC vs SSJ2) rather than personal power levels.

That doesn't imply that he could only win when Gohan was weakened. All this says is that he sees a chance to defeat Gohan more easily than if he'd had to fight him at full-strength, and he'll use that chance.

I disagree, it says he sees his chance here, meaning he didn't see it before. I think adding context of "now he could win easier" is adding unnecessary assumptions and effectively overloading the statement with context that isn't there.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

"Goku gave Gohan enough power to beat Cell" is contradicted by "Gohan defeated Cell by putting forth all of his power x4".

The statements that were in the Daizenshu said "It looked like Gohan was being pushed back by the Kamehameha Cell fired, but with Goku's advice he unleashed all his ki in one burst" and "During the battle with Cell, he won with a Kamehameha that had all his might behind it". I still don't see why the statement's can't be synonymous, using his full power and Goku giving him extra energy.

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[SirAlex09]

Am I the only one who wonders if Nullflower (listed as an enemy of Dragonball verse btw) has a folder full of Dragonball scans?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'M LISTED AS AN ENEMY?

 

[Aachintya31]

ENEMY

*Opponent.
I guess because you had the maximum downgrade threads.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Just a heads up, it's usually against the rules to add someone to any specific section without permission. How comes he didn't know his name was on opponents section huh?

 

[Vizer04]

Disagree FRA

 

[Nullflowerblush]

What happened to all of the big and interesting Dragon Ball CRTs like this one? Everything in the past few months have either been an attempt to upgrade the cosmology to Tier 1 or downgrade the entire world to Tier 3.

 

[Vizer04]

These are my favorite CRTs about Dragon Ball ngl.

Most of the time i don't care about attempting to upgrade the cosmology to Tier 1 or whatever.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Bump. Now that Cell has a Toei page, could the changes in this discussion be applied and for it to be stated that Super Perfect Cell is indeed stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, even if it doesn't apply for the main manga?

In fact, seeing that Cell now has a separate page has given me a few ideas for some matches I can make...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Now that Cell what?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

oh, nice. it's a ******* copy of the original page with higher stats.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

oh, nice. it's a ******* copy of the original page with higher stats.

Yea, pretty much, which is kinda why I'm surprised it was made. Only real difference with this page besides the main one is both the higher stats and the extra key for GT. Having said that, I'm not complaining.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yea, pretty much, which is kinda why I'm surprised it was made. Only real difference with this page besides the main one is both the higher stats and the extra key for GT. Having said that, I'm not complaining.

Also the fact that Cell uses the Multi-Form Technique but without cutting his power apart with each clone unlike everyone else who uses it.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Also the fact that Cell uses the Multi-Form Technique but without cutting his power apart with each clone unlike everyone else who uses it.

Oh, forgot that moment was only in the anime and not in the manga. I never read the manga and just watched the DBZ Kai anime growing up, so I'm not really familiar with the differences. Honestly, it took this thread for me to realize that the other Z fighters trying to help Gohan during his beam struggle with Cell was only in the anime and not in the manga.

 

[DanielX7]

Yup it was fueled with emotion. His emotions were holding him back from going to 100% power just like Goku said. Gohan scales to it.

With emotions he overcame his, (again) self imposed, emotional limitation, he didn't have a short busrt of energy beyond his "normal self", he just used his true level against Cell in that clash (after overcoming his emotional limitation).