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Dragon Ball Heroes Speed
- Thread starter Vietthai96
- Start date
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GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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Last time I checked, Infinite Speed was pretty much a tridimensional rating (using 3D space), and yet, we're accepting 4D space which is unquantifiable, as "solid evidence" for the rating?
I dunno, if the logic goes through, it might be immeasurable.
I dunno, if the logic goes through, it might be immeasurable.
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No problem.
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I am uncertain.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Dominodalek @Elizhaa @SamanPatou @Theglassman12 @AKM sama
What do you think about this?
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,782
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blip
Do you know why no one is allowed to jump between Tier 2 tiers through multipliers? Simply put, in most instances in fiction, the distance between two or more timespaces is unquantified or simply unquantifiable. They all exist together along a dimensional void space, but until we receive confirmation that there is a quantifiable distance between them — whether that be infinity meters or seven billion light-years or literally nothing at all, with every timespace being tied together like a licorice candy.
Until we have confirmation this distance is infinite, destroying the Multiverse would warrant nothing too impressive.
bloop
Uh, no.
You cheated.
This is a pretty blatant non-sequitur. Never, throughout the entirety of this scene is the entire Multiverse mentioned. Dark Shenron could be affecting only a thousand different timespaces, or ten thousand, or a million, or a billion.
The only confirmed victims of his sudden appearance and subsequent time distortion are the Demon Realm, the world that Trunks and Chronoa are currently in, and the world that Bardock came from. Nothing more and nothing less.
Hell...
Chronoa only mentions that Dark Shenron is distorting time and bringing misplaced warriors to "this world" — the singular world they are visiting, not the entirety of the Multiverse. How you came up with the "multiversal scale" thing is beyond me.
bleep
You just described hax. Space-Time Manipulation is a hax.
In the manga.
And also, no, they did not react to that. They were rendered unconscious shortly after the black hole began absorbing the world itself; however, by that time, the black hole had barely even covered the entirety of the Time Nest.
Mechikabura is not powered by the black hole, he is powered by the vast time energy that exists within the black hole.
The black hole simply acts as a medium for him to absorb time energy, nothing more.
No.
boop
that bonus point is just derivative of the mechikabura one, which is... eee...
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Speed isn't a dimensioned rating in the sense it matters what dimensionality is involved. A human and a 2 or even 1 dimensional being can have the same speed, they'd just have different limits in regards to directions they can move.
So, just expanding or moving through a higher dimensional space doesn't change the speed, especially if all that's being considered is the distance between universes here.
If you're referring to them destroying the timelines as well making this Immeasurable then as far as I'm aware, time feats are mostly treated as range unless the blasts are shown to be moving so fast they cause events in less than 0 seconds or something similar.
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Uh, no? As long as the universes have any sort of size then even being put together side by side with 0 meters of space between them would result in an infinite distance being covered if there's an infinite number of them.
The rest of the post seems to be regarding the legitimacy of the feat doing what's stated by the OP so I'll let you both sort that out since I'm not knowledgeable. But this point I had to address.
GodlyCharmander
He/Him- 5,744
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I didn't mean it like that.
Obviously we can say that about one-dimensional and two-dimensional space, because those are still bound to our overall reality, and distance on both 1D and 2D can still be measured in our unquantifiably larger dimension, 3D.
But that does not apply to 4D, our rules simply do not make sense after that. There, distance is simply immeasurable, which is why I said Infinite Speed is basically 3D, as it depends on our tridimensional concept of distance, and on our formula (which only works in 3D) for speed.
Immeasurable Speed, however, completely discards the 3D formula, as it cannot apply, and just become beyond human comprehension (which is why 4D travelling is usually treated as such)
The feat is undeniably crossing the borders of "tridimensional distance" by going into higher dimensional space/time, which then turns "d", unusable. Why? Because the distance isn't infinite, it's unquantifiable. Of course, if you add all the 3D space together from these infinite timelines, it would be infinite distance, but the gap between each timeline (4D space) is not being taken into account, despite being the undoubtfully larger portion of the "traveling".
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The gap between each timeline is just the space between universes of a presumably higher dimensional expanse onto which the universes are embedded. But that's it. It's still a gap that can be defined by meters, even if the exact degree can't be measured.
I feel like a lot of this thread is going off of the premise that higher geometric dimensions are incomprehensible gobbledegook.
I feel like a lot of this thread is going off of the premise that higher geometric dimensions are incomprehensible gobbledegook.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,145
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- Thread starter
- #50
Due to working hours and being on phone so i can't hardly reply, so i will return some hours later with my PC to properly response
But before that i'm going to reply this point first, i don't even know what you trying to imply here Null, but if you think that i'm imply they destroy the multiverse of only 1 timeline then it is not, they destroy infinite amount of timeline.
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Yes, higher spatial dimensions still work the same way as our basic 3 ones. It requires treating time as a regular spatial dimension to reach immeasurable speed.
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Nope, just you misinterpreting stuff....again
Don't worry I'll explain the multiverse part later, but first...
Dark Shenron was affecting more than just Bardock's timeline. You conveniently ignored the part where Chronoa flat-out stated that, warriors (as in, the plural form of "warrior"), who originally couldn't have existed before, are appearing because of Dark Shenron's influence. SS4 Bardock is simply one example of these "warriors that shouldn't have originally existed" and if Dark Shenron wasn't stopped, it would have gotten even worse as implied by both Trunks and Chronoa.
"Trunks: Xeno - Bardock-san! ...He left."
Supreme Kai of Time - "It seems that, because of Dark Shenlong, there has been a spacetime division
and warriors that originally couldn't have existed end up drifting to this world
"Trunks: Xeno - It can't be... What will happen to this world from now on..."
Trunks is clearly still worried about "this world", due to these warriors that are going to appear because of Dark Shenron's warping of spacetime. This statement is right after SS4 Bardock, one of these specific warriors that originally shouldn't have even existed, was defeated and left. Why would Trunks be worried about someone who's already left and defeated lol.
Obviously the arcade can't just dumb thousands or even an infinite number warriors to fight the Time Patrol at once as that's literally impossible and unnecessary and the explanation we have from Chronoa gives us a good picture of what's happening. It's crystal clear that Dark Shenron was affecting numerous other timelines. Unless the very definition for "warriors" was changed while I was asleep and Bardock now counts as multiple warriors instead of a singular warrior, which I severely doubt.
"This world" = the multiverse. Even with Mechikabura's feats, he was multiple times stated to have swallowed up "this world", "the world", "all of time", "everything" and "everything in spacetime". Hell, even when Tokitoki restored the multiverse or "the world" and "all of time" that was absorbed by Mechikabura, Chronoa explicitly stated that "this world" was returning back to normal. Did Tokitoki just restore one timeline now and left the rest of the multiverse to rot inside Mechikabura? Or what about when Chronoa said that Mechikabura was going to obliterate "this world" when she was in the Demon Realm? Was Mechikabura's goal all along to just destroy the Demon Realm instead of everything else? And what about Demigra's plan to conquer "this world"? Since he wants the power of Tokitoki and the title of Kaioshin of Time for himself to rule all spacetime, surely could it be that "this world" can actually mean something else than a singular timeline, depending on context? I wonder......
In conclusion: Context is important. Dark Shenron was shown and stated to have affected multiple timelines, causing warriors that normally wouldn't have existed in the first place to appear, like SS4 Bardock, and was considered a threat to "this world" or the multiverse as I've proven that "this world" can absolutely mean all of spacetime. It's a very simple conclusion. Him not dumping thousands if not an infinite number of warriors in front of the Time Patrol to fight them, is not a debunk, as it's obviously impossible to depict in an arcade game and would be extremely reduntant with the explanations we already have. He's stated to be warping spacetime with his energy, he caused an altered version of Bardock to appear, Chronoa stated that he's causing different warriors who shouldn't even originally exist to appear and both Trunks and Chronoa are worried about what'll happen to the world because of this. It's not rocket science.
What? How is a black hole's pull "space-time hax"?
And?
Chronoa did react to it though. She saw it coming, even before she got caught in it's pull. Only Trunks and Towa were unconcious in the black hole. Chronoa, Tokitoki and Elder Kai were fine. Also the very same black hole that had barely covered the entirety of the Time Nest was outright stated to have swallowed everything, so what's your point?
You mean the black hole which was created with Time Power lol. Mechikabura flat out states to the Demon Gods to "become a part of his Time Power" and then uses their Time Power to create the black hole itself. He even outright calls the black hole the "Power of Time". You claim that he was powered by the Time Energy inside the black hole, when the black hole itself was created with the same Time Energy. Something ain't adding up
Also, a quick tip, you should ignore the whole "tens million years" part of that statement as Future Trunks/Narrator in the next mission confirmed that the black hole that Dark King Mechikabura created sucked everyone inside of it, with the Chaos Ball being the only black hole that Dark King Mechikabura ever created in the arcade and the manga. And what do ya know, the Chaos Ball was also created with Time Power lol
Don't really have opinions on the light chains feat, so you'll get a pass on this.
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,145
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- Thread starter
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The entire narration of the saga also pointing at the entire multiverse (all of time, all timelines, all space-time, etc...) being at stake. If just one or three timeline being unusual, they will never made everything look like a big deal like that. Actually all of characters acting, dialogue along with narration pointing at a total apocalypse, everything gone
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,145
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- Thread starter
- #55
Again, you need to prove that why it is just only range feat, it is already explained in deep why it is also involved speed.
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Ah I m not exactly the best at explaining, but from what I could understand, The blackhole affected the multiverse and aborsbed it instantly, it didnt need to travel a infinite distance or something to aborsb it.
The Light Chain Seems Solid Honestly, Because Mechikabura Insides Should have been Infinite In Size.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,145
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- Thread starter
- #57
this is practically wrong, black hole still need to absorb, or in other word, pulling thing into itself, it capable of pulling infinite amount of multiverse into itself, so it should have infinite absorption speed capable of absorbing, or pulling everything at infinite speed, into itself because the black hole still need to pull everything at infinite speed so all those things can cross infinite distance within finite time to come into the Black Hole. Pulling in is just opposite movement of Spreading out. If the black hole did not pulling thing at infinite speed, the entire multiverse can't absorbed due to all "outer most" which is infinitely far away from the Black Hole, because they don't have the speed to cross infinite distance in that short time or finite time, into the black hole
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Actually now it makes sense, it was able to aborsb things infinitly away from it due to infinite Aborsbtion speed.
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Busy but need to say something so
Dark Shenron points
As Null said, we don't know how much Dark Shenron affected. While it is unlikely to have only affected three spacetimes, there is no evidence for the entire multiverse being affected. In that scene, when the characters talk about "this world", they are referring to the Time Nest where both they and the spacetime split are.
More importantly, the characters did not react to it. They sense Dark Shenron when he appears, but given they were in the Demon Realm at the time it isn't that great a feat. They only learn about spacetime being distorted when they see evidence of it first-hand.
Dark Shenron points
As Null said, we don't know how much Dark Shenron affected. While it is unlikely to have only affected three spacetimes, there is no evidence for the entire multiverse being affected. In that scene, when the characters talk about "this world", they are referring to the Time Nest where both they and the spacetime split are.
More importantly, the characters did not react to it. They sense Dark Shenron when he appears, but given they were in the Demon Realm at the time it isn't that great a feat. They only learn about spacetime being distorted when they see evidence of it first-hand.
Nullflowerblush
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A magical black hole that has existed for tens of millions of years and sustained itself off of the Time Energy of countless timespaces by eating them is definitely hax — believe we call it Space-Time Manipulation. Hell, the gravitational pull of a normal black hole is considered hax — Gravity Manipulation. A black hole itself is considered hax on the Wiki, with black holes being presented as inescapable forces of "infinite" destruction on a 3D plane.
A cleaner that sucks up debris by creating a vacuum through mechanical fans is not hax.
A black hole that sucks up entire timespaces by existing is hax.
"This black hole... is said to have resided for tens of millions of years, swallowing up space-time."
He did not make the Chaos Ball.
In the instance of an arcade-manga discrepancy, the arcade takes precedence.
In that case, see above.
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a small question, do you agree or disagree?
Nullflowerblush
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I'm not sure yet.
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The Gravitational Pull of a black hole still has a certain speed where objects are pulled into it. Hell, to escape the gravitational pull of a normal black hole, you'd still need FTL speed, as the wiki even agrees. Mechikabura's black hole's pull would logically require an infinite level of speed, due to crossing an infinite distance and consuming an infinite multiverse
Mechikaboola: "Dark Shenron, use this Chaos Ball which I've created, and eradicate everything in this world...!!"
Trunks (Future): "The black hole that Dark King Mechikaboola created has sucked everyone into it!"
Mechikabura absolutely created the Chaos Ball. The ten million years statement is just beyond nonsensical and inconsistent as hell.
As I mentioned. The Chaos Ball was created by Mechikabura in the arcade aswell, as stated by Mechikabura and the Narrator/Future Trunks. The manga just further supports this.
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Point one is null and void: The wiki doesn't give speed ratings for destroying infinite structures. You can't scale the characters that.
Point two: This just sounds like spacetime hax. There is nothing suggesting the energy spread on it's own. In fact, the scans themselves don't mention anything about energy spreading but rather says he is warping all of spacetime hax. And as you know, that doesn't count for infinite speed.
Point three: Where in the scan does it say he absorbed a 2-A structure? In fact, the scans makes it sound like the absorption is on-going and hasn't been completed.
Also Black holes don’t have any space in them. They compress matter to a single point. By very definition it cannot be infinite inside. How do we know inside the black hole is infinite?
And how exactly does one scale absorbing a timeline to physical speed? That seems really unquantifiable and just hax.
Does a character get infinite speed for absorbing an infinite amount of water? Does a character get infinite speed for being able to seal away an infinite sized structure?
Also where is the statement that chains are infinite or that they traveled an infinite distance away? Because from the image, the exit from which the chains came out seem relatively close to the characters. Unless your going to argue that the day light traveled an infinite distance as well.
And I don’t see how any character reacted to these actions. They all seem to shocked and helpless as it happens.
Point two: This just sounds like spacetime hax. There is nothing suggesting the energy spread on it's own. In fact, the scans themselves don't mention anything about energy spreading but rather says he is warping all of spacetime hax. And as you know, that doesn't count for infinite speed.
Point three: Where in the scan does it say he absorbed a 2-A structure? In fact, the scans makes it sound like the absorption is on-going and hasn't been completed.
Also Black holes don’t have any space in them. They compress matter to a single point. By very definition it cannot be infinite inside. How do we know inside the black hole is infinite?
And how exactly does one scale absorbing a timeline to physical speed? That seems really unquantifiable and just hax.
Does a character get infinite speed for absorbing an infinite amount of water? Does a character get infinite speed for being able to seal away an infinite sized structure?
Also where is the statement that chains are infinite or that they traveled an infinite distance away? Because from the image, the exit from which the chains came out seem relatively close to the characters. Unless your going to argue that the day light traveled an infinite distance as well.
And I don’t see how any character reacted to these actions. They all seem to shocked and helpless as it happens.
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Nobody used that argument. It's similar to BoG's explosion feat, where Goku and co. React to it, which is usable.
That's already covered in the profile. Mechikabura absorbed all of space time at the end. Just read the profile and you'll see.
This is an appeal to reality. Unless you wanna say that 2-A Black Holes exist in real life too.
Chronoa literally reacted to the black hole's absorption on screen. It's blatantly showed.
The part above also shows that you haven't read all the arguments since, again, we never used the ones you mentioned.
Nullflowerblush
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That was an explosion.
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Anyway
Here, Mechikabura absorbed the whole multiverse.
Here, Mechikabura absorbed the whole multiverse.
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Question does that mean no character can scale to traveling an infinite distance in a finite time as it is an infinite structure? Also no one can scale from traversing infinite sized Universes?
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That's not how it works. Traveling an infinite distance in finite time via speed is, well, Infinite speed.
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but from what people are saying here. you can't use a cosmological size for a speed feat if its infinite in size. That's what I'm gathering.
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No, nobody is saying that. I think you misunderstood.
You can't get speed ratings via destruction feats, unless you react to the attack which caused it. That's what people are saying.
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ah then i would have been misunderstanding the things spoken here.
Sorry about that*
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No worries.
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i’m a little confused. You don’t get infinite speed for destroying the structure, but you get infinite speed for reacting to the explosion or attack that was going to destroy the structure? How does that work? It seems like you’re just trying to go around the rule.
I’m just going by the current standards and what I’ve been told.
Its about scaling to destructive feats. Not traversing.
I posted the scan you posted. They use a present progressive tense, meaning the action is currently happening not that it finished.
If its not a real black hole, that is fine. I was just confused because people were mentioning gravity.
Can you post the scan with her reaction? I only saw her making a shocked face. Perhaps I missed something.
Did she dodge or outrun the attacks?
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