Dragon Ball Games should have its own page.

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

@Dominodalek Is trying to argue that we should separate all the Dragon ball Heroes media into many separate continuities, and stop scaling Hero's to other heroes titles, and other games and media like Xenoverse all together on the pretext of continuity issues. I am adamantly against this and wont support it, as I have articulated in other threads, and expanded upon above in my comments, and it has been agreed upon several times that this is not the route the site should take. Preferably if it is agreed upon yet again here, we will put a note up to stop repeating this argument about what scales to DBH every 6 months.

I am fine if we want to go ahead and add the current page as it is.

I completely agree with SSJRyu1 on this.

 

[sanicspood]

same tbh.

I completely agree with SSJRyu1 on this.

 

[Dominodalek]

My argument is specifically that:
a) We should follow the Canon guidelines when it comes to Heroes, and treat certain adaptations as alternative canon.
b) There is no evidence that Xenoverse (specifically referring to those games here) is in continuity with Heroes, and an abundance of evidence that it isn't - therefore Xenoverse should not be a valid source for Heroes.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek

A) If we are overly anal about separating Heroes into separate continuities based on consistency then it results in over half a dozen alternate continuities, and they still are inconsistent in many cases even in the same media. It doesn't help anything and just creates more profiles and work from my perspective, or could potentially leave the usable content vastly reduced and turn the current profiles into pointless husks that can only use the small amount of info from the Arcade and nothing else due to inconsistencies. And choosing some Heroes media as useable and not others is just cherry picking and double standards, so its not a good solution.

B) Due to the reasons I outlined above we allow scaling to Heroes from most Official DB media, including Xenoverse. By your logic we can't scale any anime, games, manga, spin offs, other heroes media etc to the profiles since they all have some inconsistencies to the SDBH arcade.

 

[Dominodalek]

@Dominodalek

A) If we are overly anal about separating Heroes into separate continuities based on consistency then it results in over half a dozen alternate continuities, and they still are inconsistent in many cases even in the same media. It doesn't help anything and just creates more profiles and work from my perspective, or could potentially leave the usable content vastly reduced and turn the current profiles into pointless husks that can only use the small amount of info from the Arcade and nothing else due to inconsistencies. And choosing some Heroes media as useable and not others is just cherry picking and double standards, so its not a good solution.

Not at all, it results in four. Most of the info comes from the Arcade and manga anyway so the profiles will be fine, all that will change is that one or two powers may be removed, some justifications may need to be altered, and some of the tiers may rise or lower. It's not cherry picking when there's a clear reason for the choices being made - the valid media tells Heroes' story, the invalid media does not. Again, any characters with enough material from a particular spin-off can just have a key for it, this isn't an issue.

B) Due to the reasons I outlined above we allow scaling to Heroes from most Official DB media, including Xenoverse. By your logic we can't scale any anime, games, manga, spin offs, other heroes media etc to the profiles since they all have some inconsistencies to the SDBH arcade.

You're completely missing the point. The problem isn't "inconsistencies", but that "most Official DB media" is part of Heroes, whereas Xenoverse is not.

 

[SSJRyu1]

That is literally the definition of cherry picking. Your choosing to include Arcade and Manga continuities, which do deviate, in one profile, and excluding all the rest of the material. Your literally picking what multiple different sources you think should be used, and excluding the rest.

Your whole argument as to why you think Xenoverse should be excluded is predicated on the notion that it is somehow "more inconsistent" than all other DB media, which is simply not the case. I have outlined that virtually ALL DB media has some inconsistencies with DBH, that is the nature of an adaptation, we simply recognize that those stories are considered and incorporated in DBH to some degree, and that the RW in DBH is explicitly shown to be based on our own with a few differences, intended for the perspectives to be the same with us and there RW, and even is shown to use the UMX game and 3DS like our own showing our media exists in it further, not to mention all the explicit crossovers and virtually every DB character, loccation and form existing in Heroes, but yet you advocate we can still use them, just not Xenovese because you think Xenvoerse is somehow less consistent, or "isn't part of it" when you cant even prove anything else your advocating for adding fits perfectly as "part of it".

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I've seen this thread only recently, so lemme give my imput:


Heroes is already separated in part on this wiki, so I think separating UMX from the main canon is fine for me. Same with Xenoverse

Cosmology wise, I think Xenoverse is kinda inspired by Heroes in some way (or the other way around, the argument doesn't really change), considering how the stuff they deal with is... Kinda the same (fixing time and stuff), I think the people behind the game intended for the cosmology's size to be there same too. Heroes also tend to fit various games into timelines of the multiverse (as seen with Shin Budokai, for example). Budokai Tenkaichi 3 has a 2-A statement, and while the game has no implications of being in Heroes , it could still be used as some kind of supporting evidence in my point of view.


Xenoverse remains the same. As for the Heroes continuities with tier 2 stuff , I think a good compromise could be "At least 2-B, possibly/likely 2-A"

This is my opinion on the topic.

 

[sanicspood]

Xenoverse remains the same. As for the Heroes continuities with tier 2 stuff , I think a good compromise could be "At least 2-B, possibly/likely 2-A"

whats the point if they have blatant 2-A scaling

 

[Dominodalek]

That is literally the definition of cherry picking. Your choosing to include Arcade and Manga continuities, which do deviate, in one profile, and excluding all the rest of the material. Your literally picking what multiple different sources you think should be used, and excluding the rest.

Your whole argument as to why you think Xenoverse should be excluded is predicated on the notion that it is somehow "more inconsistent" than all other DB media, which is simply not the case. I have outlined that virtually ALL DB media has some inconsistencies with DBH, that is the nature of an adaptation, we simply recognize that those stories are considered and incorporated in DBH, and that the RW in DBH is explicitly shown to be based on our own with a few differences, and even is shown to use the UMX game and 3DS like our own showing our media exists in it further, but yet you advocate we can still use them, just not Xenovese because you think Xenvoerse is somehow less consistent, or "isn't part of it" when you cant even prove anything else fits perfectly as "part of it".

The arcade and manga, while they do differ in many aspects, are ultimately telling the same story. Victory Mission and the handheld ports are not.

The issue with Xenoverse specifically is that it is far more than just being "inconsistent", there is no evidence for the two being linked. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I am eager to see it.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

whats the point if they have blatant 2-A scaling

Power scaling is not the issue we're discussing here thought

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek
See my above posts, I already answered those points, and am not going to continue to repeat myself on the topic.

 

[Dominodalek]

See my above posts, I already answered those points, and am not going to continue to repeat myself on the topic.

All you've done is strawman my arguments over and over, while ignoring requests for any evidence to back up your own claims.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dominodalek Is trying to argue that we should separate all the Dragon ball Heroes media into many separate continuities, and stop scaling Hero's to other heroes titles, and other games and media like Xenoverse all together on the pretext of continuity issues. I am adamantly against this and wont support it, as I have articulated in other threads, and expanded upon above in my comments, and it has been agreed upon several times that this is not the route the site should take. Preferably if it is agreed upon yet again here, we will put a note up to stop repeating this argument about what scales to DBH every 6 months.

I am fine if we want to go ahead and add the current page as it is.

This seems fine to me. Feel free to create the verse page and write a new note for this. You can place it in the page in question.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Antvasima Sounds good. I have published the Dragon Ball (Games) page and linked it to the main one. I have also included the note regarding the topic of scaling in DBH. This thread can probably be closed since its purpose of making the page is finished.

 

[ProudLearner]

One important thing you guys forgot about.

You need to link all video game characters (in the Origin section) to Dragon Ball (Video Games)

 

[Dominodalek]

Whoa, you can't just say "it's been thoroughly rejected, you're not allowed to argue this anymore" when it absolutely hasn't. Out of the two topics you linked, this is the only one where any meaningful discussion on the points was made, and the actual counter-arguments made were never refuted.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek
It has been talked about numerous times in the past as well before the wiki migration on other threads always with the same results since we included heroes, these are just the latest examples. One links the acceptance of using things like Xenovese, Budokai etc. for scaling the cosmology by virtually everybody, the other is this where the issue is discussed directly for people to see the arguments for themselves, and the other is a blog showcasing a basic outline of why most DB media scales to Hereoes inherently or even directly (may be expanded later as that's a rough copy).

And I was given the go ahead to implement such a note, and these are the current standards, its not like I did it just because I felt like it without input. I have no issue with making an extra key for current Demigra, or UMX Demigra btw, just like we do for BoG Goku and ToP Goku, but the notion of splitting the series into many continuities, or choosing to not scale other DBH, or DB media to Heroes has been discussed ad nauseum and rejected multiple times. Also I feel all your points have been refuted in the previous posts, even if you don't agree with the arguments. If you have new points I will certainly look at them however, but not circular arguments.

Either way this thread served its original intended purpose already and the page is implemented, I don't really have an interest in a repetitive argument that is somewhat off topic anyway.

 

[Dominodalek]

Your arguments have refuted nothing but a gross exaggeration of my case, and you have repeatedly ignored attempts to provide actual evidence for your claims, but I have no wish to continue repeating my arguments in the vain hope that someone might actually bother to address them. As I said when I first brought up my criticism, I will be willing to let the matter pass, as long as this flagrant attempt at silencing criticism is dropped.

 

[SSJRyu1]

@Dominodalek
You've said your piece, and I have given refutations to it whether you agree or not. Unless there is new points there is nothing left for you and I to discuss. If you want the note removed lobby the staff, notes like that are put in place to stop continuous circular arguments that have been discussed many times from being repeated. I'm not interested in further circular arguments on the topic, and my stance on the topic remains the same.

This thread has served its purpose and can be closed as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Dominodalek]

Ignoring that practically every post you have made on the subject is the same circular argument repeated ad nauseum, you've just banned discussion of the topic, so I don't know how you expect to hear new points.

 

[SSJRyu1]

You can msg me if you want my input on new points, I will at least read and consider all my messages. If you have significantly new arguments beyond what was mentioned already that is reason enough to ask staff knowledgeable about the series if they feel a CRT can be created to discuss them despite any note. You are not unable to discuss the topic, its simply been identified as a repetitive topic for CRT's that has been decided multiple times with the same outcome, and threads using the same or similar repetitive arguments to try and get it passed are being prohibited.

 

[Dominodalek]

That's not true though, the subject has barely come up. This is the only topic where a serious attempt has been made to present counter-arguments, and even then only as a statement of intent. There is no need to shut down discussion in such a way.

 

[SSJRyu1]

That's not true though, the subject has barely come up. This is the only topic where a serious attempt has been made to present counter-arguments, and even then only as a statement of intent. There is no need to shut down discussion in such a way.

It is true. It has been discussed multiple times in the past, and the use of the various DBH media and inherently most other DB media for DBH has been accepted every time, this is just the latest. If you want input on new arguments post them now, or message me later for my input, or put it on my wall if you want it public for whatever reason. To lobby for new arguments on the topic to be made into a CRT after the thread ask a knowledgeable staff member to overview it and make an exception on the note for that CRT if they feel the argument is different enough.

Either way this thread has served its purpose and is no longer beneficial to keep open imo, so baring new arguments I'm done with it and imo it should be closed.

 

[Vietthai96]

wait, where is GT, i saw it disappear from Dragon Ball page

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

wait, where is GT, i saw it disappear from Dragon Ball page

GT is in the Toei DB page, since this is a non-canon anime only series

 

[Vietthai96]

GT is in the Toei DB page, since this is a non-canon anime only series

Thing just get more confusing, i think Toei and Manga should in the same mega page

 

[Nullflowerblush]

They aren't the same continuity.

 

[Vietthai96]

I know, just i think we just separate Game from Anime and Manga

 

[Antvasima]

One important thing you guys forgot about.

You need to link all video game characters (in the Origin section) to Dragon Ball (Video Games)

This is correct.

Is somebody here willing to handle that please?

 

[Antvasima]

@SSJRyu1

Would you be willing to update all of the DB games character pages so they link to the new verse page instead please?

Or is somebody else know knows what they are doing willing to handle it?

I will need a list of the EXACT page titles (not the URLs) for my automated script to be able to unlock them for editing though.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Do we have a link to the new DB verse page?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Do we have a link to the new DB verse page?

The page is already made

 

[Starter_Pack]

I was simply asking for the link to the verse page upon Ant's request to have the pages link to it.

Which you did, so thank you.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Anyway, I have updated every profile to reflect the new verse page.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for the help. You are awesome.

Should I close this thread then?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Unless Domino has any further contention, I guess the thread can be closed.

 

[Dominodalek]

I still disagree with the note, but I'm discussing the matter elsewhere, you can close the topic.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I can make the new verse page if people agrees with it.

 

[sanicspood]

I can make the new verse page if people agrees with it.

it already happened

 

[Vietthai96]

I know this is not related and minor thing but i think we should change Goku's description from Dragon Ball Manga and Anime (Not Toei), it is already established in DBS Broly movie that he was sent to Earth not for mission of destroying it, that was Toei thing from 90s with those Episode of Bardock. In DBS Broly movie Bardock sent him to Earth so he could be safe, not destroy it