Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

[Omegabronic]

each branching timeline has a RoSaT

already covered, whoever created the rosat in the main timeline, would create it again during the events of the splitted timeline, there is no proof that the rosat is directly affected by the split of the timeline

also the vote tally should have griffin as neutral and ant as agree next time that’s updated

griffin agrees with the downgrade, well kind of

Regardless, I don't really much know enough about the manga to even way in but considering the decision was that they have the same cosmology was agreed upon, I guess the downgrade is justifiable.

i guess he could be put in a "neutral leaning to agree" position

regardless if you could make a summary of the oposition's points it would be good for the thread, after that i would make the one for the one that agree with the downgrade and then pass to ant for him to tag staff members to evaluate this thread, since they are busy people and don't have the time to read 4 pages of a thread like this

 

[Omegabronic]

Also AKM agrees with Universo 7 being low 2-C



https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5449053

this was addressed already, the thing about "spacio-temporal barriers"was questioned already and was asked for shown of proof of its existance, we are waiting for ddm to show the source of such statements, the part about dimensional travel was also questioned already and it is waiting for a response, i don't see any mention of akm in the post you linked

 

[Vietthai96]

1 akm has given no opinion on this thread so far, ddm only showed some of his past comments on it and then i asked about them for clarity, he has work to do and didn't had time to answer, we have to wait

2 3 staff agree and 2 disagree, having no consensus means that we need to achieve one, since the note that makes the individual universes low 2-C doesn't apply anymore as of the last threads, so even if this was rejected(it isn't) it would still need a staff consensus on what the new justification would theoretically be, of course this thread would need more staff evaluation first before deciding anything

3 idk what you mean by "the evaluation is closed" this is not how things work around here, the division in staff is not big, and both sides have given extensive evidence on their side since the thread started, so with a summary both the staff that already voted and that will still vote can have a easier time evaluating this thread, since most staff are incredibely busy and don't have the time and energy to read a 4 page long thread, so a summary solves the problem

1. I actually agree with this, AKM need to voice his opinion or else we can't based on his past comments to reject the thread, however DDM did re-post his comment so DDM can still represent AKM in a sense, since we don't deny anyone from repost other argument if they can defend and argue for it, let wait for him

2. I do agree with this, the disagree and agree side is equal mean we can't reach conclusion yet. Upgrade or downgrade my favorite verse or not, everything need to be in order, fairness should be preverse

However, let me voice my opinion, the reason for so many headaches here is because of many bad decisions about DB cosmology back in the past

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

1 akm has given no opinion on this thread so far, ddm only showed some of his past comments on it and then i asked about them for clarity, he has work to do and didn't had time to answer, we have to wait

2 3 staff agree and 2 disagree, having no consensus means that we need to achieve one, since the note that makes the individual universes low 2-C doesn't apply anymore as of the last threads, so even if this was rejected(it isn't) it would still need a staff consensus on what the new justification would theoretically be, of course this thread would need more staff evaluation first before deciding anything

3 idk what you mean by "the evaluation is closed" this is not how things work around here, the division in staff is not big, and both sides have given extensive evidence on their side since the thread started, so with a summary both the staff that already voted and that will still vote can have a easier time evaluating this thread, since most staff are incredibely busy and don't have the time and energy to read a 4 page long thread, so a summary solves the problem

again stop trying to rush this thread, this is not things work, we need more staff

Yes, yes, I'm rushing the thing, if there's no consensus, then there's no point in debating

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5449958

Since it was said that the admins who voted down have more weight here, so yes, the topic was pretty much rejected

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450152

Imagine if I was rushing something

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450185

lol

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450204

 

[Omegabronic]

1. I actually agree with this, AKM need to voice his opinion or else we can't based on his past comments to reject the thread, however DDM did re-post his comment so DDM can still represent AKM in a sense, since we don't deny anyone from repost other argument if they can defend and argue for it, let wait for him

2. I do agree with this, the disagree and agree side is equal mean we can't reach conclusion yet. Upgrade or downgrade my favorite verse or not, everything need to be in order, fairness should be preverse

However, let me voice my opinion, the reason for so many headaches here is because of many bad decisions about DB cosmology back in the past

thank you for being understanding, we really need someone to make a summary of both sides arguments to make it easier for staff to evaluate, i am waiting until someone of the opposition makes a summary so i can make one of the ones in agreement

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm currently finding informations, many good informations about DB are in guidebooks, some probably doing the same, so let this thread and discussion have a period of break and rest

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, yes, I'm rushing the thing, if there's no consensus, then there's no point in debating

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5449958

this is ant giving a sugestion, he said that we have not a good consensus yet and gave a suggestion, we need reach a consensus, that is how these things work around here, idk why do you think that a non automatic consensus means that the thread has to be closed, even if the downgrade was rejected(it wasn't) we would still need a consensus on what to apply, since the old note doesn't work anymore

Since it was said that the admins who voted down have more weight here, so yes, the topic was pretty much rejected

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450152

that is not how it works, some of the staff tagged already also has this rank, not that it matters, more staff to discuss here could change their minds, this is the whole point of a consensus, to see in what they agree to apply something, there is nothing to apply if there isn't a consensus here, the old note doesn't work anymore, to do anything in either downgrading or not we need a consensus

Imagine if I was rushing something

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450185

lol

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-cosmology-revision.148648/post-5450204

ant in both of those is saying the same thing as i am, that we need a staff consensus, that we can't apply anything without one and that he only gave a suggestion

stop spaming the thread please? it is already long the way it is and you are not helping, if you are not going to be productive with the thread then don't comment

 

[Omegabronic]

I'm currently finding informations, many good informations about DB are in guidebooks, some probably doing the same, so let this thread and discussion have a period of break and rest

agree with this, and then we can finally make both summaries and let the staff evaluate the topic at hand

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I’m gonna be honest here and just say this

Im not really a fan of this whole “physical traveling being possible” point as a knock against separate space times by default.

I’m obviously not suggesting anything or anyone in Db has infinite or immeasurable speed, but it should be up to the verse in question and what evidence it has on determining whether or not universes are physically connected or if the speed is simply actually special enough in its own right to cross separate space times to be infinite/immeasurable

In other words, this specific part of the criteria shouldn’t be a default, it should be a case by case determination.

 

[Omegabronic]

I’m gonna be honest here and just say this

Im not really a fan of this whole “physical traveling being possible” point as a knock against separate space times by default.

I’m obviously not suggesting anything or anyone in Db has infinite or immeasurable speed, but it should be up to the verse in question and what evidence it has on determining whether or not universes are physically connected or if the speed is simply actually special enough in its own right to cross separate space times to be infinite/immeasurable

In other words, this specific part of the criteria shouldn’t be a default, it should be a case by case determination.

well this is a problem more with the tier 2 revisions rather then this thread

 

[Reiner04]

I’m gonna be honest here and just say this

Im not really a fan of this whole “physical traveling being possible” point as a knock against separate space times by default.

I’m obviously not suggesting anything or anyone in Db has infinite or immeasurable speed, but it should be up to the verse in question and what evidence it has on determining whether or not universes are physically connected or if the speed is simply actually special enough in its own right to cross separate space times to be infinite/immeasurable

In other words, this specific part of the criteria shouldn’t be a default, it should be a case by case determination.

Let's say this way then And again the problem with DB is that it's not the only reason, they have a similar structure as of Quilted multiverse aka all of universe are within same spacetime and affected all together. DB has consistently opposed the idea of universes being separate. So if it's case by case, then DB is in the top of the list when it comes to this case.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m gonna be honest here and just say this

Im not really a fan of this whole “physical traveling being possible” point as a knock against separate space times by default.

I’m obviously not suggesting anything or anyone in Db has infinite or immeasurable speed, but it should be up to the verse in question and what evidence it has on determining whether or not universes are physically connected or if the speed is simply actually special enough in its own right to cross separate space times to be infinite/immeasurable

In other words, this specific part of the criteria shouldn’t be a default, it should be a case by case determination.

Traveling to other universes isn't Infinite/Immeasurable, it's just dimensional travel. But I already address the point is that it's indeed NOT a counter argument about the universes not being separate space-times yeah.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DarkDragonMedeus you do realize that’s one of the things needed for a tier 2 structure to be a thing with the new revisions right? If physical travel is possible between universes it debunks them being separate tier 2 structures.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, most characters can't travel to other universes; only Angels can and it was due to dimensional travel statements that Whis had. Also reread some of the 7 threads I linked where AKM made his various posts; others have brought up statements about the universes being separate by spacio-temporal barriers which is one of the ways to consider them Tier 2. We need to prove the timeline is a quilted multiverse or bubble multiverse; and the existence of a few characters being able to travel via flight is not a counter argument. We have in Anime statements about the 12 universes being real universes which result in Timelines being brane timelines containing smaller space-time continuums. Perhaps don't just read the individual posts but beginning to end of those 7 threads I have linked previously.

 

[Omegabronic]

Actually, most characters can't travel to other universes; only Angels can and it was due to dimensional travel statements that Whis had. Also reread some of the 7 threads I linked where AKM made his various posts; others have brought up statements about the universes being separate by spacio-temporal barriers which is one of the ways to consider them Tier 2. We need to prove the timeline is a quilted multiverse or bubble multiverse; and the existence of a few characters being able to travel via flight is not a counter argument. We have in Anime statements about the 12 universes being real universes which result in Timelines being brane timelines containing smaller space-time continuums. Perhaps don't just read the individual posts but beginning to end of those 7 threads I have linked previously.

well we would need proof of said spatio temporal barriers, people brought up how hit can go to other universes by himself, and there is statements of whis doing dimensional travel? if you could give them it would be useful

 

[Reiner04]

dimensional travel

Yes, whis is capable of doing dimension travel. He can casually travel to afterlife from living universe. From one universe to another universe. From beerus planet to kaioshin realm. From universe 7 to zenoh palace.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

well we would need proof of said spatio temporal barriers, people brought up how hit can go to other universes by himself, and there is statements of whis doing dimensional travel? if you could give them it would be useful

oh no, Hit can't go to other Universes, that was refuted in my point, don't repeat arguments already refuted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

well we would need proof of said spatio temporal barriers, people brought up how hit can go to other universes by himself, and there is statements of whis doing dimensional travel? if you could give them it would be useful

Didn't someone else already debunk the Hit part? And that Vados had this cube thing that allowed them to travel to Universe 7? And other users brought up the Whis part though not sure what episodes. Otherwise, the 7 threads I linked in this post don't seem like they were read very thoroughly.

 

[Omegabronic]

Didn't someone else already debunk the Hit part? And that Vados had this cube thing that allowed them to travel to Universe 7? And other users brought up the Whis part though not sure what episodes. Otherwise, the 7 threads I linked in this post don't seem like they were read very thoroughly.

ok

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

“Hit can go to other universes by himself” curious as to where this was implied? The entire reason he showed up to the U6 Tournament was to get the Cube so he could actually get to other universes and expand his business, because he couldn’t otherwise. He literally can’t.

The Assassinating Goku filler arc never shows anything straightforward as to how he travelled and it’s all off screen, but considering how Vados herself is the one who actually hired him, there’s no reason to assume he travelled on his own without it being shown.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

“Hit can go to other universes by himself” curious as to where this was implied? The entire reason he showed up to the U6 Tournament was to get the Cube so he could actually get to other universes and expand his business, because he couldn’t otherwise. He literally can’t.

The Assassinating Goku filler arc never shows anything straightforward as to how he travelled and it’s all off screen, but considering how Vados herself is the one who actually hired him, there’s no reason to assume he travelled on his own without it being shown.

Exactly, here's the proof, if he could really go to another universe he would have already gone and wouldn't ask to walk fast.

 

[Omegabronic]

“Hit can go to other universes by himself” curious as to where this was implied? The entire reason he showed up to the U6 Tournament was to get the Cube so he could actually get to other universes and expand his business, because he couldn’t otherwise. He literally can’t.

i mean, he implied that he could when he went to kill goku that one time, the cube is just a faster way to do it

The Assassinating Goku filler arc never shows anything straightforward as to how he travelled and it’s all off screen, but considering how Vados herself is the one who actually hired him, there’s no reason to assume he travelled on his own without it being shown.

you know what? fair point

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

i mean, he implied that he could when he went to kill goku that one time, the cube is just a faster way to do it

He could, but we don’t know how. As far as doing it on his own abilities, the entire plot point of his introduction into the story revolves around the fact that he literally couldn’t and was desperately looking for a way to do so, so considering how he does so in the filler arc is completely offscreen and he was hired by the one person who has the cube, the assumption he did it on his own can be ruled out.

 

[Reiner04]

“Hit can go to other universes by himself” curious as to where this was implied? The entire reason he showed up to the U6 Tournament was to get the Cube so he could actually get to other universes and expand his business, because he couldn’t otherwise. He literally can’t.

The Assassinating Goku filler arc never shows anything straightforward as to how he travelled and it’s all off screen, but considering how Vados herself is the one who actually hired him, there’s no reason to assume he travelled on his own without it being shown.

Don't whis/cube/SDBs travels from one universe to another via regular 3 dimensional movement because the point of breaching spatial boundaries between universes or dimensions stays mute if it can be achieved by simple 3 dimensional movement/flight, breaking in someone's home if no gate is present doesn't mean the home is separated in dimensions but rather just closed from each other.

 

[Reiner04]

To be simple. If universes are present in the same timeline, for them to be separate spacetime's, they must be separated on a multiversal/5D axis or, a simple 3 Dimensional movement between them shouldn't be possible in the first place. Just clarifying the stuff.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, as for the assassination attempt, actually it was Goku who hired Hit for Hit to be his assassin. But he needed Whis to deliver the message to Vados who in turn delivered the message to Hit and it seems obvious the most likely outcome is that she was the one who brought him to Universe 7

 

[Theglassman12]

Is there any statements that the angels can move through a higher dimensional plane to travel across the universes or no? Because you need that to prove separate universes, and again the ROSAT can’t be used to prove separate tier 2 structures since it’s retconned with the recent manga chapters.

 

[Omegabronic]

To be simple. If universes are present in the same timeline, for them to be separate spacetime's, they must be separated on a multiversal/5D axis or, a simple 3 Dimensional movement between them shouldn't be possible in the first place. Just clarifying the stuff.

I agree with the thread and @Theglassman12, if physically traveling is possible and if time shenaningans affects the whole of the universes and not just the one concerned universe, then they are not spatio-temporally separate, which is now a criteria for them to be considered as a multiple tier 2 structure and not 1.

hey pain, since you were the one who made the tier 2 revision, can you give more clarity on this?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Is there any statements that the angels can move through a higher dimensional plane to travel across the universes or no? Because you need that to prove separate universes, and again the ROSAT can’t be used to prove separate tier 2 structures since it’s retconned with the recent manga chapters.

bro, you might as well read my comments and stop this repetition! Yes, they can, I've proven this several times in my reviews.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

already covered, whoever created the rosat in the main timeline, would create it again during the events of the splitted timeline, there is no proof that the rosat is directly affected by the split of the timeline


griffin agrees with the downgrade, well kind of

i guess he could be put in a "neutral leaning to agree" position

regardless if you could make a summary of the oposition's points it would be good for the thread, after that i would make the one for the one that agree with the downgrade and then pass to ant for him to tag staff members to evaluate this thread, since they are busy people and don't have the time to read 4 pages of a thread like this

Hm so the assumption is that when it’s branched it’d make another rosat that’s supposedly outside of the timeline as well each time?

griffin is unsure and says he’ll let the rest of the staff handle it and says he won’t comment anymore he’s just saying it’s probably justifiable but Neutral (Possibly learning towards agree) works

ill See if I can do that

 

[Theglassman12]

@LuffyRuffy46307 you said this several times to me, the only thing that holds any weight is the other world concept of time line.

 

[Reiner04]

Is there any statements that the angels can move through a higher dimensional plane to travel across the universes or no? Because you need that to prove separate universes, and again the ROSAT can’t be used to prove separate tier 2 structures since it’s retconned with the recent manga chapters.

Rather the space between universes, the "neutral space" is shown to be a regular space with planets and stuff like of normal universe, between which characters can move normally and even cross it. Whis/SDBs/Cubes are all travels from one universe to neutral space to another universe. Universes are just closed from one another just like afterlife is closed from mortal realm. Breaching spatial boundaries through sheer speed stays mute as universes won't have like entrance or gate to welcome them. They are in same spacetime, closed from each other and can be reached via 3 dimensional movement.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

@LuffyRuffy46307 you said this several times to me, the only thing that holds any weight is the other world concept of time line.

Your profile already has dimensional travel, it's up to you to prove that it doesn't, my friend

I think things are resolved here.

 

[Reiner04]

Hm so the assumption is that when it’s branched it’d make another rosat that’s supposedly outside of the timeline as well each time?

The timelines that has been branched off and copies the original timeline will eventually copies the story of kami, who has destiny to create a RoSaT. So it's not RoSaT that is branching with timeline but that Kami's fate in all of time and space is intertwined with creating RoSaT.

 

[Reiner04]

Your profile already has dimensional travel, it's up to you to prove that it doesn't, my friend

I think things are resolved here.

That's barely changes anything tho... Simply being closed off from one another doesn't mean separate spacetime especially when within same timeline. Angles/cubes/SDBs are can travel in neutral space and from one universe to another via regular 3 dimensional flight.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

well we would need proof of said spatio temporal barriers, people brought up how hit can go to other universes by himself, and there is statements of whis doing dimensional travel? if you could give them it would be useful

Also, as for the assassination attempt, actually it was Goku who hired Hit for Hit to be his assassin. But he needed Whis to deliver the message to Vados who in turn delivered the message to Hit and it seems obvious the most likely outcome is that she was the one who brought him to Universe 7

Can you try to find the scan of spatio temporal barriers DDM?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That's barely changes anything tho... Simply being closed off from one another doesn't mean separate spacetime especially when within same timeline. Angles/cubes/SDBs are can travel in neutral space and from one universe to another via regular 3 dimensional flight.

On the wiki thats considered dimensional travel

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Rather the space between universes, the "neutral space" is shown to be a regular space with planets and stuff like of normal universe, between which characters can move normally and even cross it. Whis/SDBs/Cubes are all travels from one universe to neutral space to another universe. Universes are just closed from one another just like afterlife is closed from mortal realm. Breaching spatial boundaries through sheer speed stays mute as universes won't have like entrance or gate to welcome them. They are in same spacetime, closed from each other and can be reached via 3 dimensional movement.

actually neutral dimension.

 

[Reiner04]

On the wiki thats considered dimensional travel

Yes, I am saying samething. Travelling between dimensions can be anything but not a "dimension travel".

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's barely changes anything tho... Simply being closed off from one another doesn't mean separate spacetime especially when within same timeline. Angles/cubes/SDBs are can travel in neutral space and from one universe to another via regular 3 dimensional flight.

my friend, the Universes have different histories and different pasts, how can they get equal space-time? It is noted that when you created this, you did not read the work, you covered the blinders with your eyes and took random scans to downgrade the verse, read the Zamasu chapter and you'll understand what I'm talking about, the neutral space there is a dimension, I hope you understand things well.