Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

[LuffyRuffy46307]

"almost no conection" meaning that there is one

anime and manga are not the same cosmology, there are differences in them, like anime having different stories, like different places, like a room full of drawers of time rings.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I’m not saying it’s apart of the universe I’m saying it’s a subspace within the timeline the RoSaT is a space within a space and even if it’s not in the macrocosm (not my argument so idk why you keep bringing it up) it can be referring to the timeline and that’s not contradicted saying that’s it’s not inside the timeline and it is it’s own timeline is head canon and there’s no evidence to back that up if there’s scans or statements of the RoSaT being its own timeline and not being Inside the timeline at all like is being claimed I’ll concede

it doesn’t have enough evidence imo even if the RoSaT isn’t inside of Universe 7 it would still be a 2-C multiverse but the argument is that the RoSaT is outside of the timeline and there’s no evidence of that and it’s been stated to be a subspace so I disagree with this statement that’s not enough evidence for it to be a 2-C multiverse

this was addressed in the last thread, there is no proof or evidence that it is inside the timeline, so we don't consider it to be

I’ve sent proof you’ve just ignored it and you havent been addressing it wheres your proof the RoSaT is outside the timeline? And if needed I’ll send the scan once again

 

[GojiBoyForever]

@SSJRyu1 @The_real_cal_howard @Super_Saiyan_God_Julian @Zenkaibattery1 @Antoniofer @EMagoIorSouI @KingEzran @GojiBoyForever @Gilad_Hyperstar @Spinoirr @FluffyCreatureZ @Eseseso @Flashlight237

My ban just ended and I got tagged lol

 

[Spinoirr]

The only way the cosmology can get downgraded is if the RoSaT is outside of the timeline entirely which there’s no proof of I haven’t seen anyone talk about this because if the RoSaT is inside the timeline it means a space time can encompass a space time defaulting the universes back to Low 2-C can anyone address this?

Basically RoSaT Is outside of universe 7, but is a part of the timeline

 

[Omegabronic]

I’ve sent proof you’ve just ignored it and you havent been addressing it wheres your proof the RoSaT is outside the timeline? And if needed I’ll send the scan once again

i don't see in any of the points you shown the evidence for the rosat to be inside the timeline, the only thing you showed as proof was the subspace thing, which i already addressed here

 

[Antvasima]

It is because manga have different feats and statements compare to anime, thus different ratings

Edit: shit, forgot to ask for permission

I think that you, @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @Dominodalek, and @Dagoth_OwO can comment here if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

Working off of Toriyama's notes means very little for their connection to each other, considering the notes are, evidently, vague, simple, and straightforward outlines of the primary plot points, especially when considering the fact that Toei and Toyotaro took their months in radically different directions.

I personally agree with this.

I don't know why this was brought up. They don't have reality warping or any such technique giving them dimensional travel Why are we now suddenly assuming basic flight is some sort of dimensional travel or warp without evidence.

I thought that Whis has a dimensional travel type of flight, and that he stated that Beerus and other characters that can fly across the local universe cannot travel outside of it through flight on their own, or do I misremember?

The original god dragon balls should also be far more powerful than Whis, but I suppose that may be a bit speculative, even with Dragon Ball's raw power-dependent type of scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

"The plot created by Toriyama-sensei is a starting point for both anime and manga, but then we work independently from each other. The possibilities of anime and manga are different, so each one tries to adapt the scenario in the best possible way. So there is almost no direct connection between the anime and the manga".

Thank you for the information.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Thank you for the information.

You're welcome, bro, whenever you need it, you can ask.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks again.

 

[Reiner04]

I thought that Whis has a dimensional travel type of flight, and that he stated that Beerus and other characters that can fly across the local universe cannot travel outside of it through flight on their own, or do I misremember?

Not really, it was never stated that they cannot fly off from one universe to another but it's just that, they don't do that. Even something as small as going from one planet to another, they rely on angles.

Also SDBs do not have any kind of power comparison in the verse but they're simply the way to summon to super shenron, they have been shown to scatter across universes through simple flight.

Also that all of universes are affected by time travel within single universe already makes it more than once that they do not follow general separate spacetime universe structure but entire timeline rather is a one structure.

I'll give my thoughts on other stuff later.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

i don't see in any of the points you shown the evidence for the rosat to be inside the timeline, the only thing you showed as proof was the subspace thing, which i already addressed here

It’s the world beyond and the universe section so it can be referring to either one

edit: also is there remotely any proof that shows the RoSaT is outside of the timeline? since that’s the claim

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I personally agree with this.

I thought that Whis has a dimensional travel type of flight, and that he stated that Beerus and other characters that can fly across the local universe cannot travel outside of it through flight on their own, or do I misremember?

The original god dragon balls should also be far more powerful than Whis, but I suppose that may be a bit speculative, even with Dragon Ball's raw power-dependent type of scaling.

well, about Whis, he can travel through different periods of time, like in this quote where he mentions that he could go there and talk to beerus




Also he is able to go to other dimensions, like the other world which is only accessible through teleportation.




on the dragon balls they are able to cross the world of emptiness to go to other places, like here




to access other Universes it is necessary with only the cube, as shown here



Champa even mentions that it would be impossible to catch them.




here it shows that help is needed to go to other Universes, for example like Universe 6

https://imgur.com/a/lbPn7OS

in the manga there is evidence of a dimension that separates the Universes

https://imgur.com/a/NY2sWh6

also when Whis says that it takes two days to go to Bills' palace is not a refutation, because Zeno's palace is outside the multiverse

https://imgur.com/a/1lQbcU7

https://imgur.com/a/YfpcgKO

both anime and manga Zeno's palace is shown outside the multiverse, all 12 Universes are shown outside

so the angels would necessarily have to have dimensional travel flight

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

If there is one thing I fear in life, it's the discussion about the structure of the DBS timeline

 

[Flashlight237]

Honestly, the workings of the universes are a finicky one. On one hand, there are entities clearly outside of the universes altogether like the void where the Tournament of Power took place in, which was noted to be infinite. On the other hand, the universes are finitely sized and there were clear indicators of normal factors of speed (such as there being a certain amount of time required to get to a certain place). Pretty sure there is some more context for both sides of the coin, but it's been ages since I've watched Dragon Ball Super, so I can't recall what there is.

 

[Omegabronic]

It’s the world beyond and the universe section so it can be referring to either one

no, the part about subspace is talking about the locations of Earth aka the living universe

edit: also is there remotely any proof that shows the RoSaT is outside of the timeline? since that’s the claim

a negative is not needed to proven, the positive is, which in this case is the claim "the rosat is part of the timeline" this claim is the one needed to be proven, no one needs to prove a negative

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

like the void where the Tournament of Power took place in, which was noted to be infinite.

Unless I’m mistaken, wasn’t infinite a mistranslation for the WoV? That it’s simply just eternal since it’s…a void?

 

[Reiner04]

Unless I’m mistaken, wasn’t infinite a mistranslation for the WoV? That it’s simply just eternal since it’s…a void?

I read through old threads, WOV was accepted to be infinite ig because treating it as mistranslation and using term "eternal" over "infinite" was making the statement looking bad.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I read through old threads, WOV was accepted to be infinite ig because treating it as mistranslation and using term "eternal" over "infinite" was making the statement looking bad.

So Toppo must climb to that feat, we could even do a CRT to discuss infinite velocity, if indeed this is accepted, since Toppo has filled every world of void with his energy, I already have several plans

 

[StekFence]

It’s accepted as Eternal time wise, and not infinite size wise atm. At least, I’m pretty sure it is

Unless I’m mistaken, wasn’t infinite a mistranslation for the WoV? That it’s simply just eternal since it’s…a void?

 

[Reiner04]

It’s accepted as Eternal time wise, and not infinite size wise atm. At least, I’m pretty sure it is

I see. I mistook it then.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

no, the part about subspace is talking about the locations of Earth aka the living universe


a negative is not needed to proven, the positive is, which in this case is the claim "the rosat is part of the timeline" this claim is the one needed to be proven, no one needs to prove a negative

If you argument is that the RoSaT isnt within the timeline that would need to be proven the sub space section is talking about the locations within the universe and the world beyond

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

think of it like this, both are equally canon to z, meaning that anything that they ad cosmology wise retroactively applies to z, and since z is canon to both, then it applies to both

They’re not canon to Z Z is canon to them huge difference this is like saying the db manga is canon to the z anime so any cosmology things that happens to the Z anime applies to the Z manga

 

[Omegabronic]

They’re not canon to Z Z is canon to them huge difference

they are both equaly considered as canon continuation, a canon continuation is canon to the thing it is continuing from, like how dbz is canon to db, same thing here

this is like saying the db manga is canon to the z anime

dbz anime is not considered canon here and was not written by akira toryama, dbz anime is a continuation of db anime, not the same situation

so any cosmology things that happens to the Z anime applies to the Z manga

read above

If you argument is that the RoSaT isnt within the timeline that would need to be proven the sub space section is talking about the locations within the universe and the world beyond

i don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove the positive, also no, the subspace is in the Earth section of the map, let us stop now as it is clear that we will not convince each other, let the staff evaluate

 

[Da3ggman]

they are both equaly considered as canon continuation, a canon continuation is canon to the thing it is continuing from, like how dbz is canon to db, same thing here

Minor nitpick, but DB and DBZ are the same series, just split up and released as different for western audiences.

 

[Antvasima]

well, about Whis, he can travel through different periods of time, like in this quote where he mentions that he could go there and talk to beerus




Also he is able to go to other dimensions, like the other world which is only accessible through teleportation.




on the dragon balls they are able to cross the world of emptiness to go to other places, like here




to access other Universes it is necessary with only the cube, as shown here



Champa even mentions that it would be impossible to catch them.




here it shows that help is needed to go to other Universes, for example like Universe 6

https://imgur.com/a/lbPn7OS

in the manga there is evidence of a dimension that separates the Universes

https://imgur.com/a/NY2sWh6

also when Whis says that it takes two days to go to Bills' palace is not a refutation, because Zeno's palace is outside the multiverse

https://imgur.com/a/1lQbcU7

https://imgur.com/a/YfpcgKO

both anime and manga Zeno's palace is shown outside the multiverse, all 12 Universes are shown outside

so the angels would necessarily have to have dimensional travel flight

This also seems like useful information.

 

[Spinoirr]

People are forgetting

Whis was literally watching Goku and Merus Train in a time chamber hense it had to be in the timeline

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

People are forgetting

Whis was literally watching Goku and Merus Train in a time chamber hense it had to be in the timeline

i talked about it in my comment

 

[Omegabronic]

Minor nitpick, but DB and DBZ are the same series, just split up and released as different for western audiences.

i know, just used the name

 

[Omegabronic]

People are forgetting

Whis was literally watching Goku and Merus Train in a time chamber hense it had to be in the timeline

why would it had to?

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

they are both equaly considered as canon continuation, a canon continuation is canon to the thing it is continuing from, like how dbz is canon to db, same thing here


dbz anime is not considered canon here and was not written by akira toryama, dbz anime is a continuation of db anime, not the same situation


read above


i don't need to prove a negative, you need to prove the positive, also no, the subspace is in the Earth section of the map, let us stop now as it is clear that we will not convince each other, let the staff evaluate

Well I’m not aware if Og db anime and manga are different in anyway but I dont think it is from what I’ve seen but either way toriyama creates a plot script and toei and toyataro can do their own things toei couldn’t have done whatever they wanted in Z Toriyama still helped out with Z just not as much because he was working on the manga but that point doesn’t really matter

You must not be reading my scan it’s legit in the universe/world beyond section it refers to the actual Rosat as C4 and mentions the one on earth and calls that one area b-1 but the actual rosat and not the entrance to it is referred to as a sub space

but sure we can get staff to evaluate I just wanted to say this first though

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This also seems like useful information.

Also in DB's databook it is mentioned that Zeno's palace is outside the 12 Universes of DB



"Space", there must be dimension or something like that, since many times DB works with it

Here is a Japanese translation for those who prefer to translate



I don't know if this will add anything here, but it is said that the histories are different between Universe 6 and 7



All taken from DB's databook, the newest release.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well I’m not aware if Og db anime and manga are different in anyway but I dont think it is from what I’ve seen but either way toriyama creates a plot script and toei and toyataro can do their own things toei couldn’t have done whatever they wanted in Z Toriyama still helped out with Z just not as much because he was working on the manga but that point doesn’t really matter

i don't understand your point

You must not be reading my scan it’s legit in the universe/world beyond section it refers to the actual Rosat as C4 and mentions the one on earth and calls that one area b-1 but the actual rosat and not the entrance to it is referred to as a sub space

do you have a scan showing the image of the guide? because i don't see that in the scan

but sure we can get staff to evaluate I just wanted to say this first though

ok, going to stop answering about this now

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

i don't understand your point


do you have a scan showing the image of the guide? because i don't see that in the scan


ok, going to stop answering about this now

Don’t worry about that one

this is my scan https://imgur.io/a/WBlQubo#YVAm6M4 (The Universe/World Beyond Section)

but yeah let’s get staff evaluation

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I completely disagree with this.

This is very pedantic and essentially using a technicality to downgrade a verse. I say in this case, author intention should take precedence over this. It's clear that the story intends each universe to be an actual universe comparable to our real life standards. And I am not a fan of stories where we handicap stories where the author has a creative cosmology because it doesn't match 1:1 to our chosen cosmology standards.

 

[Reiner04]

I completely disagree with this.

This is very pedantic and essentially using a technicality to downgrade a verse. I say in this case, author intention should take precedence over this. It's clear that the story intends each universe to be an actual universe comparable to our real life standards. And I am not a fan of stories where we handicap stories where the author has a creative cosmology because it doesn't match 1:1 to our chosen cosmology standards.

It's going against our standards.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It's going against our standards.

It’s not it fits our standards you’re just bringing in head canon arguments that can’t be proven

 

[Reiner04]

It’s not it fits our standards you’re just bringing in head canon arguments that can’t be proven

A ridiculous headcanon argument that is supported by 4 staff members

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

We shouldn't even be using the same cosmology for the anime and manga when they have multiple differences that was warranted enough to give the characters different profiles, so why on earth are statements made in the manga use as justification to effect anime stuff is beyond me but whatever. Also, Frieza said "perhaps", meaning he isn't even sure if that's the exact reason but sure, I could see the reason for the downgrade but I still don't agree with the cosmology for the anime and manga being the same when they already have different events and statements happening in them so when a statement is made on the cosmology from one, it's basically ignorant to use it for the other when the wiki itself treats what's happening in both as noticeably different.

Regardless, I don't really much know enough about the manga to even way in but considering the decision was that they have the same cosmology was agreed upon, I guess the downgrade is justifiable. However, the angels and Zeno's guards "physically" traveling to other universes is something that's bothered be since they are clearly using a technique (that warp or whatever it's called) that doesn't look like their normal flight but I haven't the time nor effort to debate Dragon Ball stuff. I'm sick, busy with real life stuff, and revising other verses and despite this known fact, I'm still being called for major revisions... so I'm not replying after this.

I'll let other staff handle this.

Are you sure it’s 4 staff members? Plus glass iirc didn’t even give a reason why he disagreed Planack and Maverick are the only ones who’ve actually given reasons but i don’t think they know the main argument and assume it’s because of the travel between universes

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

IIRC, Glass simply played Devil's Advocate and just asked. As for Griffin, he made some general statements he never made an agreement/disagreement to either side.