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Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

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omegabronic said:
any reason to assume that he didn't made a space time distortion?
Click to expand...
i don't need to assume, the anime show it via its contexts and visual, supported by Zeno erasure feat. Space-time distortion have clear visual contexts via Super Buu and Gotenks created a dimensional rift, or when Trunks using time machine it created a space-time distortion connect both timeline, and Black using that path to travel. Vegeta feat isn't create a rift, a portal or a path, he blew thing up. It is your turn to prove otherwise
omegabronic said:
the thing is that it shouldn't be possible to physicaly move to another space time period
Click to expand...
It is because we power scaler using such logic, cosmology should be evaluated via the verse contexts, if the verse treat that they can move between space-time via a neutral space/spatial dimension, then there is no reason to ignore them and force our standard in a very narrow manner

anyway i need to sleep now, bye
 
Aachintya31 said:

Here Hit went alone and vados and champa together.
Here it is stated that people of this planet plan to escape to another universe

Travelling in void is different than travelling between space-time.

@LuffyRuffy46307 regarding your cube argument, they just prefer to use the cube because its fast. Frost stated that neither god of destruction or galactic patrol would be able to catch him.
Click to expand...

Could you please stop using assumptions? Hit didn't venture into Universe 7 until reaching 6, that's impossible, it's only possible through a cube, Hit first went to space, because he doesn't like many people, as mentioned there, then he just hitched a ride, since it is mentioned that he cannot go to other Universes.

Also his argument is kind of bad, as Champa mentions that the cube can go anywhere.

The cube was made extremely by Whis, Whis crosses dimensions, to other planes, it can go to the future, said in the work itself

I repeat again, planning is different from achieving it, can you show me them or Hit crossing the Universes?
 
@DarkDragonMedeus yeah the IZ feat is totally just 3-A and not also Low 2-C because of Infinite Zamasu merging with the timeline as he was spreading across Trunks’ timeline. You do realize that’s the big reason IZ is remotely treated as tier 2 and not just 3-A right? If there exists any new argument for separate space times for the individual universes then by all means post it right now.
 
godofice said:
The RoSaT is stated to be a subspace meaning a space inside a space even if not within the universe this would be inside the timeline so unless there’s proof of it being it’s own timeline or time ring that’s outside of the timeline it shouldnt be applied https://imgur.io/a/WBlQubo#YVAm6M4
Click to expand...
Reiner said:
Because it was only considered to be a part of timeline because it had reasons to be considered to be a part of U7, like vegeta destroying RoSaT and end up on kami's look out. But now that it doesn't have any evidence to be a part of universe and It being a part of timeline evidence never existed as being inside the U7 was only proof, w/o that, it's entirely separate spacetime outside of usual spacetime (timeline).
Click to expand...
 
So it’s still only the RoSaT, and nothing else. Given the primary canon retcons that statement it takes precedence over the daizenshuu statements. Is there anything new brought to the table for this or not? If not then I agree with the downgrade
 
@godofice I do not understand what that scan proofs and in which section it lies and what does it even proves regardless being inside universe is contradicted and all, you need a proper evidence and things to claim anything.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@DarkDragonMedeus yeah the IZ feat is totally just 3-A and not also Low 2-C because of Infinite Zamasu merging with the timeline as he was spreading across Trunks’ timeline. You do realize that’s the big reason IZ is remotely treated as tier 2 and not just 3-A right? If there exists any new argument for separate space times for the individual universes then by all means post it right now.
Click to expand...
Zeno's palace and the dimension of the lights are all in my commentary, also after life.

also the neutral dimension that separates the two Universes
 
Theglassman12 said:
@LuffyRuffy46307 which commentary? And does it remotely mention the flow of time is different? Because you’re gonna need evidence for the latter to keep the individual universes as Low 2-C
Click to expand...
Zeno's Palace outside the 12 Universes



Dimension of the lights that is separate from the universe





After life that the concept of time does not exist


Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃダメな技なん...
間 っ て の が あ こ の 世 で は 使 う エ ネ ー ー 大 き す て 一 に に ヘ へ ト な っ ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

https://imgur.com/a/10ZFEl6


Makai

https://imgur.com/a/W3A9eEp

https://imgur.com/a/ZcYvcJ1

Dimension that separates the Universes

https://imgur.com/a/NY2sWh6
 
Theglassman12 said:
So it’s still only the RoSaT, and nothing else. Given the primary canon retcons that statement it takes precedence over the daizenshuu statements. Is there anything new brought to the table for this or not? If not then I agree with the downgrade
Click to expand...
I’m saying the RoSaT is a subspace of the timeline since it’s in the world beyond and universe section the RoSaT is stated to be a space within a space meaning even if it’s not encompassed within the universe it’s encompassed within a timeline showing space times can encompass space times defaulting the Universes back to low 2-C so no this isn’t contradicted at all
Reiner said:
@godofice I do not understand what that scan proofs and in which section it lies and what does it even proves regardless being inside universe is contradicted and all, you need a proper evidence and things to claim anything.
Click to expand...
My answer to this i said above but you need to prove the RoSaT is outside the timeline entirely the RoSaT is implied to be inside the timeline and even stated to be with my scan can you prove the RoSaT is it’s own timeline it’s your burden of proof to prove the RoSaT is outside of the timeline
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Zeno's Palace outside the 12 Universes



Dimension of the lights that is separate from the universe





After life that the concept of time does not exist


Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃダメな技なん...
間 っ て の が あ こ の 世 で は 使 う エ ネ ー ー 大 き す て 一 に に ヘ へ ト な っ ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

https://imgur.com/a/10ZFEl6


Makai

https://imgur.com/a/W3A9eEp

https://imgur.com/a/ZcYvcJ1

Dimension that separates the Universes

https://imgur.com/a/NY2sWh6
Click to expand...

Zeno palace can be travelled from U7.. I see... Although I already knew...

Regardless the Fterlife can be ignored by each staff here w/o me telling or responding to it why.
 
godofice said:
I’m saying the RoSaT is a subspace of the timeline since it’s in the world beyond and universe section the RoSaT is stated to be a space within a space meaning even if it’s not encompassed within the universe it’s encompassed within a timeline showing space times can encompass space times defaulting the Universes back to low 2-C so no this isn’t contradicted at all
Click to expand...
Your scan should be saying all this, not you. In which section this sub space falls? All I can see is that it's in universe /macrocosm section which is contradicted.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Universe 6 exists outside of universe 7, that’s not evidence for he Palace is it’s own tier 2 structure.
Click to expand...
My friend, for God's sake, he exists outside the 12 Universes, his space-time is different, the Universes are outside Zeno's palace, it's a different dimension.
 
Literally what part of Zeno’s palace proves alternate space time? The scan literally says it takes 2 days to travel there which already makes anything higher than Low 2-C to be non concrete
 
Theglassman12 said:
Literally what part of Zeno’s palace proves alternate space time? The scan literally says it takes 2 days to travel there which already makes anything higher than Low 2-C to be non concrete
Click to expand...
the means of travel is not common, it is outside the 12 Universes, obviously it has its own space-time, literally because it is outside all 12 universes, just do the math there.
 
Literally none of what you said proves alternate space times, like at all. As for the concept of time not existing, is that even treated as alternate space times? I don’t recall any verses that get multiple space times for the concept of time not existing.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Literally none of what you said proves alternate space times, like at all. As for the concept of time not existing, is that even treated as alternate space times? I don’t recall any verses that get multiple space times for the concept of time not existing.
Click to expand...
It's a scan and things that has been brought up billions times and got rejected. Basically discussion rule to not even bring it up again and even in the OP it has been told that not bring it up as it caused previous thread got derailed from all this.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃダメな技なん...
間 っ て の が あ こ の 世 で は 使 う エ ネ ー ー 大 き す て 一 に に ヘ へ ト な っ ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

Click to expand...

That something i didn't want to mention, but if we go with Goku statement it does imply that the Other World, while maybe not literally timeless, has its own flow of time, which usually its one of the main evidence for the existence of separate space-time.

Theglassman12 said:
is that even treated as alternate space times?
Click to expand...
If i recall correctly timeless dimensions, if universal in size, can be consider Low 2-C structures.

Or if we don't take the statement literally, it still strongly suggest that the Other World has its own flow of time independent to the Living World.
 
Hasty12345 said:
Universe 6 exists outside of universe 7, that’s not evidence for he Palace is it’s own tier 2 structure.
Click to expand...
It can be inferred that if universe 7 has its own distinct timeline, then it is probable that universe 6 also possesses its own separate timeline by default.
 
Stefano4444 said:
That something i didn't want to mention, but if we go with Goku statement it does imply that the Other World, while maybe not literally timeless, has its own flow of time, which usually its one of the main evidence for the existence of separate space-time.


If i recall correctly timeless dimensions, if universal in size, can be consider Low 2-C structures.

Or if we don't take the statement literally, it still strongly suggest that the Other World has its own flow of time independent to the Living World.
Click to expand...
there is also quote of the other world being transcendent
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
the means of travel is not common, it is outside the 12 Universes, obviously it has its own space-time, literally because it is outside all 12 universes, just do the math there.
Click to expand...
I don’t think this makes sense on its own. It’s existence outside of the 12 universes opens up multiple possibilities. One could be that they are all one space time and the Zeno palace is farthest out. Another is that they are separate space times entirely. Since there are two options, you can’t just take this example and use it as definite proof of separate space times, as it can lead to multiple conclusions.
Stefano4444 said:
That something i didn't want to mention, but if we go with Goku statement it does imply that the Other World, while maybe not literally timeless, has its own flow of time, which usually its one of the main evidence for the existence of separate space-time.
Click to expand...
how does being timeless possibly indicate having a separate flow of time? Shouldn’t it either not have time at all, or if goku is assumed to be wrong, the statement wouldn’t have any bearing on out interpretation of the flow of time there at all?
 
@ImmortalDread that’s not really how it works, especially if there’s no indication the flow of time is different between universes.

@Stefano4444 I see, then I’ll stay neutral on the other world statement until we have some experts comment on that.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
He wasn't accusing them of hating on Dragon Ball, he just pointed out that most of the staff skimmed through the thread and/or clearly hasn't followed many Dragon Ball threads before this one. While Planck and Maverick gave their opinions and those opinions are fine; though I disagree with the former's take he just said. "If Super Dragon Balls can travel to other universes via flight then he thinks they're all one big body of space" similar to the quilted multiverse theory. But that's not a counter argument and we already had other arguments about Universe 7 alone being a space-time continuum. Such as the numerous guidebook statements that describe it as having spacio-temporal barriers surrounding it. And numerous in Anime statements also confirm this due to characters like Beerus and mortals being incapable of traveling to other universes without being carried by an Angel who actually uses dimensional travel to travel between universes. And if we have confirmed spacio-temporal dimensional barrier statements combined with characters or objects being able to travel through flight, that is face value evidence of dimensional travel.

Also, there is a bit of a flaw in Glassman's point of view. Aside from him not reading or following those statements and appears to have mostly skimmed through this thread and hasn't really been following DBS related threads up until now, he still said he was fine with Zamasu's feat being Low 2-C. But Zamasu only has evidence of merging with Universe 7 and that he is transcending time and space and part of him is attempting to merge with other timelines; there is not evidence he merged with the other 11 universes. So either Universe 7 is a Low 2-C sized structure, or IZ's feat isn't Low 2-C. And arguing otherwise comes off as golden egg fallacy. Though given the numerous spacio-temporal statements, I think it is still Low 2-C.

And Griffin mostly made a what if statement and also mentioned he isn't experiences with the verse and hasn't read the full argument. So I think he is neutral unless he decides to take time to look over. And I know AKM is also burned out of this topic, but he also agrees that Universe 7 being a Low 2-C structure is something already agreed a while back.
Click to expand...
Medeus makes sense to me above.
 
Stefano4444 said:
Also about the ROSAT, another proof that go in favour of that dimension to still existing within the macrocosmo its with the Super Buu's Vice Shout.

Since if the pocket dimension its suppost to exist completely outside the universe/multiverse/timeline, then would Super Buu be capable to make a wormhole that connect right outside the Kami Lockout? When instead he should have end up in either the void between universes or in another timeline.

And its not like it was a coincidence since Gotenks SSj3 also replicate the same feat, also making a wormhole that bring him and Piccolo right back to the Living World, its clearly show that the pocket dimension while be separate its still located within 7 Universe.

Thi also it consistent with Vegeta busting the ROSAT in Super, as when it was destroy he end up right back in Kami Lockout.
Click to expand...
This also seems to make sense.
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Zeno's Palace outside the 12 Universes



Dimension of the lights that is separate from the universe





After life that the concept of time does not exist


Databook cites that there is no time in the other world




Quoting manga.

In the afterlife there is no time

さっきの超サイヤ人3ってのは heな......あの世でしか使っちゃダメな技なん...
間 っ て の が あ こ の 世 で は 使 う エ ネ ー ー 大 き す て 一 に に ヘ へ ト な っ ち う ......
Super Saiyan 3 is a technique that should only be used in heaven... Where there is no such thing as time, and in this world, we expend so much energy that we can run out all at once...
He says "after life", so in case someone comes along saying that there's a difference between paradise and another world, goku is talking about the metaphysical plane of the macroverse.




It is mentioned once again in this guide that another world does not have time

https://imgur.com/a/10ZFEl6


Makai

https://imgur.com/a/W3A9eEp

https://imgur.com/a/ZcYvcJ1

Dimension that separates the Universes

https://imgur.com/a/NY2sWh6
Click to expand...

Thank you for helping out with evidence. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
 
Theglassman12 said:
@ImmortalDread that’s not really how it works, especially if there’s no indication the flow of time is different between universes.
Click to expand...
I am not referring to the context, I am talking generally. I am not sure why we should assume, that universe A that has its own timeline, and universe being stated to be outside of it, then the latter has no timeline? It makes no sense

I am talking generally
 
Anyway, which staff members think what here so far? I agree with Medeus for the record.
 
ImmortalDread said:
I am not referring to the context, I am talking generally. I am not sure why we should assume, that universe A that has its own timeline, and universe being stated to be outside of it, then the latter has no timeline? It makes no sense

I am talking generally
Click to expand...
Universe A never had it's own timeline tho... Timeline already contains zeno palace. Each timeline has its own Zeno and so it's palace.
 
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