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Dragon Ball Cosmology Canon

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LuffyRuffy46307

LuffyRuffy46307

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This is my tribute to the passing of the great Akira Toriyama

I'm going further than that, i'm even saying that all the material in the Dragon Ball Z anime is canon to the main one, this original story and complements all of Akira's original work

Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 10 (Supplementary): TV animation Part 3 - Animation collections

Innovative! Dragon Ball-style scripting techniques

Did you know that when the original manga was being published in Weekly Jump, the anime script for the same chapter was already finished? Toriyama's editor would take the drafts he had faxed to Weekly Jump and send them to Toei Animation, and they would write the script based on that... you could say that it was precisely because of this system that this was possible. This is a good example of how the anime was made through a system of total cooperation between the sensei, the editorial department and Toei Animation!!!
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The original anime material is made like this!!!

Even though it is "original", episodes and character ideas usually come from Toriyama-sensei (see article below). In addition, Toei Animation also made stories with an understanding of the Dragon Ball world, based on the concept that, although they weren't portrayed in the manga: "something like this probably happened".It's thanks to these unseen efforts that you can watch the source material without it seeming out of place.
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The scripts for the movie were written by Akira Toriyama and he corrected a few things

Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 6: Movies and TV Specials - Introduction and Super Interview with Akira Toriyama


I check the plot and script sent to me by Toei Animation. I also do some designs and touch-ups on the characters, as well as changing names and things like that.
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Koyama himself mentioned that Akira Toriyama added Bardock, who was an idea created by Koyama himself for the anime and was added in the manga

Koyama: And I was also extremely grateful for the Bardock story we did in the TV Special (The Lonely Final Battle). This is because we had the privilege of creating an aspect of the story that was not in the original work. After that, sensei followed our example with the original work…. He respected what we had done and even made the story consistent with ours. Nothing compares to this kind of blessing. I think it's rare to allow the crew and cast to do things so freely. Toriyama-sensei is incredible in that regard. We also have no intention of doing something bad, and it actually gives us the motivation to do our best.
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Taken from Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 6: Movies and TV Specials – Shenron Diary

Akira knows how to fit things together well



If needed, this is from the Dragon Ball Z Anime Special booklet. It's a book all about the development of anime and movies in special and talks about Toriyama's relationship with anime development. This page is the "Akira Toriyama's Memos" (鳥山明メモだ) and is about the notes Toriyama makes for the anime staff for original ideas.



いくら原作者といっても、アニメのドラゴンボールをみるのは、みなさんと同じ水曜日の7時です。 自分でマンガに描いておきながら展開を忘れてしまっている場合や、 アニメだけのオリジナルな内容の時、迫力のあるシーンなどで盛り上がっている時など、 「どうなるんだろ・・・」などと、けっこうドキドキして晩ゴハンを食べながら、楽しくみせてもらっています。 あたりまえのことですがアニメにはアニメならではの良さがあり、マンガにはマンガならではの良さがあります。みなさんも、アニメとマンガ、似ているようで、それぞれ微妙にちがった世界を持っているふたつの 「ドラゴンボール」を、ぜひお楽しみください。 (ところでわが家は5人家族ですが、 アニメもマンガもドラゴンボールをみているのはボクひとりです。とほほ･･･。 ま、いいけどね)
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Translation

Akira Toriyama: Even though I'm the original author, I watch the Dragon Ball anime just like everyone else, at 7 o'clock on Wednesdays. Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun. Everyone, both the manga and anime are similar, but they are slightly different worlds even though both have "Dragon Ball", you'll certainly enjoy both of them. (By the way, my house family has people, but I'm the only one who watches both the anime and manga of Dragon Bal... Hoho... Well, that is good.)
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アニメ版ドラゴンボールZのオリジナル部分の基本となる鳥山明先生のアイディアメモを大公開!
The basis for the original parts of the anime version of Dragon Ball Z, Akira Toriyama-sensei's idea memo, is now open to the public!

「ドラゴンボールZ」では原作にはないオリジナルエピソードがふんだんに盛り込まれている。この原作に登場しない部分は、すべて鳥山明先生の考えたアイディアをもとにして作られているんだ。 鳥山明先生がアニメの製作スタッフに自分の考えを伝えるために描いたアイディアメモがこの「鳥山明メモ」なのだ! このページではアニメで使われた鳥山明先生のアイディアを紹介しちゃうゾ!
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"Dragon Ball Z" has various original episodes that are not in the original. The parts that don't appear in the original work, are all created based on Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas. This "Akira Toyirama Memo" is an idea memo drawn by Akira Toriyama-sensei to convey his thoughts to the anime development staff!
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On this page, we'll introduce Akira Toriyama-sensei's ideas that were used in the anime!

さて、蛇の道ってどんなところなんだろうか?あの雲の下には何があるのだろう? 鳥山明先生は、みんなの気になるそんなところもちゃんと考えているのダ。原作では明かされなかった部分がわかっちゃうなんて、ちょっとトクした気分だね。
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So what is Serpentine Road like? What's under those clouds? Akira Toriyama-sensei really thought about things everyone cares about. It feels a little advantageous to learn about things that weren't revealed in the original work.
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@Executor_N0 translation

vsbattles.com

Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

nice 'nu-uh' Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Akira toriyama mentions that Dragon Ball is a manga and an anime, both of which are treated as originals according to him
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How did you create the original stories for the theatrical movies?



When we made the episodes for the theatrical features, first the scriptwriter, the producer, and Toriyama-sensei's supervising editor would get together, and meet about story concepts, such as what to do about the main villain. Then I would put together a plot based on the content of what we'd talked about. I'd send that plot to Toriyama-sensei and get his opinion on it, then start writing out the scenario that was the typical flow. Once I got to writing, I'd be joined at the hip with the producer
Click to expand...

With regards to the contents, there was the restriction that the movie "not progress into story settings further ahead than the TV anime at the time of its premiere"; for example, even if I'd decided to do fusion, I wouldn't be allowed to do it ahead of the TV anime or the original manga. 1 So I'd always be conscious of its state of progress on TV, and if we were doing the Freeza arc in the TV anime at the time of the premiere, a story would be born with the sense of, "Let's bring out Freeza's older brother!" Except, at times such as when the state of production on the TV anime caught up to the original work, it would be extremely tough with nothing to use as hints, and I received ideas directly from Toriyama-sensei
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More evidence

If you are a fan, you must enjoy this much! An original story not in the original work! The movie version is an original story, but it is not separated from the main story. The movie version reveals the origin of the unexplained things and parts that could have happened/could have taken place in the original story!
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In most cases with the movies, the script writers used their marvelous techniques to write up an original story, based on my original work. The original work develops in such a way that it makes it difficult to come up with side-stories, so I think they really did a good job.
Click to expand...

Source of it all

www.kanzenshuu.com

Translations | Dragon Box The Movies: Dragonbook - Theatrical Story Q&A (Takao Koyama)

English translation of the 'Theatrical Story Q&A' with Takao Koyama from the 2006 release of Dragon Ball's 'Dragon Box The Movies' in Japan
www.kanzenshuu.com www.kanzenshuu.com

Extra Addition

"Dragon Ball", which created the foundation of Jump anime.

By the time the anime version of "Dragon Ball" started airing, the original manga was already in the midst of the "Red Ribbon Saga" and had accumulated a considerable amount of story material. At the beginning of the show, the story was unfolding relatively quickly, but after about six months, they had used up the stock of material, so they began to follow the original story more closely while mixing in some original content.
Click to expand...

The drama and visual aspects of the anime also placed a heavy emphasis on the original manga, following its ongoing storyline at a moderate pace while mixing in some original content. This style of adapting manga into anime is now commonplace, but "Dragon Ball" can be said to have completed it first.
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Although they emphasized the original manga, "Dragon Ball" expanded on certain aspects of the story, which caused some inconsistencies (for example, introducing Dr. Flappe, who created Artificial Human No. 8, even though later the original manga introduced Dr. Gero, who created Artificial Humans). In the following series, "Dragon Ball Z", they strengthened their relationship with the original story, and those inconsistencies were eliminated."
Click to expand...


What i really want with this is for Toei to be canon material that we can use whenever we want, since before there was nothing explained about it.


For those who have fallen off the wagon and don't know what I'm proposing, here it is accepted that the cosmology is composite, as having material from other spinoffs such as Trunks' timeline existing in the same multiverse canon as the franchise, i'm just justifying it for the toei to continue being used as evidence for cosmology

vsbattles.com

A major update to Dragon Ball timelines

Is 'Dragon Ball GT' canon or not? Aired from 1996 to 1997, 'Dragon Ball GT' (from Grand Touring) was originally the sequel to 'Z'. However, unlike its predecessor anime, it was a completely original story at the initiative of Toei Animation, which was not based on Akira Toriyama's manga. It is...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com


vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball Z movies timelines

Akira says that the films are continuations of the original in a parallel way. A message from Akira Toriyama-sensei My sincerest gratitude to all those who purchased this Dragon Ball Movie DVD Box! With these films, the Dragon Box series finally comes to an end. In most cases with...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

This is just a justification for cosmology to be composed even more, something that we accept, if you disagree with this you will have to create a crt to decompose cosmology, because we accept all materials created by Akira Toriyama being canon for cosmology, we are not making a profile fusion.

Agree: @ProfectusInfinity, @ChoursDropoff , @RenderGK, @XxZetsuxX,@Killerdrone123 ,@LordDestroit10K ,@TheGodOfICE777,@Gamin_Yoon23 , @OblivionCiffer2202[/USER,@AizenBankai09,@TiltedFN, @speedster352,@Hasty12345, @Cass5373,@pineappleman, @CaveGamist, @RenderGK, @Ryzen7900X,@Phsccarvalho, ,@ScalingRandomVerse,@Ednaxel2, @Greatsage13th, @The_Axiom_of_Virgo,@ReaperAndBlues, @DarkDragonMedeus (agree with OP in using scans for supplement evidences for shared element between continuities, cosmology, etc....)

Disagree: @The_Yellow_Topaz ,@Robo432343 , [USER=835],@CloverDragon03 ,@Damage3245 ,@TyranoDoom30 ,@Raiden38 ,[USER=835]@Deagonx ,@Maverick_Zero_X, @DarkDragonMedeus (disagree with merging continuities into one, or something like that), @Dark_Soul20189


Neutral: @RedReaper ( trying to agree),@The_Unknown_Warrior1[/USER]
 
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LordDestroit10K said:
Sounds kinda logical for me, but then, your purpose is that feats in Toei-verse are valid for the characters in DB manga? Or simply that places in cosmology, objects, or anime statements are also for the manga? I’m asking to better understand this thread
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I don't want to merge the two for achievements, but i do want them both to be used for cosmology and unexplained abilities, like things not explained in the manga having things explained in the anime, i don't want to cause a mess by merging the two works, all the two works will be treated as super manga and anime (something similar), the anime would only serve to add more cosmology and such.

Example

We can see that there are several differences between the anime and the manga of Dragon Ball Super. This is obviously due to the opposite direction that Toei and Toyotaro take the story. The basis for both is a plot created by Toriyama and from there the stories are developed according to the plans of those responsible for both media. It's worth noting that even though this is the case, both segments and media are canonical
Click to expand...
 
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LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I don't want to merge the two for achievements, but i do want them both to be used for cosmology and unexplained abilities, like things not explained in the manga having things explained in the anime, i don't want to cause a mess by merging the two works, all the two works will be treated as super manga and anime (something similar), the anime would only serve to add more cosmology and such.
Click to expand...
In this case I totally agree with this. Keep up bro!
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I don't want to merge the two for achievements, but i do want them both to be used for cosmology and unexplained abilities, like things not explained in the manga having things explained in the anime, i don't want to cause a mess by merging the two works, all the two works will be treated as super manga and anime (something similar), the anime would only serve to add more cosmology and such.
Click to expand...
Okay, OP seems fine to me then. Since this clears up my concerns. So, I’m fine with being able to use the anime as complementary evidence and Toriyama being the one who helped come up with the ideas of the original episodes are clearly outlined in the OP as well.

It’s funny though that Toriyama helped with the “original” episodes for the anime. So, no more “random writers made up everything for DB and Toriyama had NO involvement.” Not like the manga and anime aren’t called different histories anyways.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
Okay, OP seems fine to me then. Since this clears up my concerns. So, I’m fine with being able to use the anime as complementary evidence and Toriyama being the one who helped come up with the ideas of the original episodes are clearly outlined in the OP as well.

It’s funny though that Toriyama helped with the “original” episodes for the anime. So, no more “random writers made up everything for DB and Toriyama had NO involvement.” Not like the manga and anime aren’t called different histories anyways.
Click to expand...
Exactly, people think it was random people who created the plot, but everything was in Akira's hands all this time.
 
Damage3245 said:
Is this seeking to combine Toei profiles with manga profiles? If that's the case then I am vehemently against this thread.
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Unfortunately no, this is just for us we can use things from cosmology and some things it doesn't explain, but it will still be a different continuity from the manga, but being canon to the verse

Can I put it as you agree?
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Unfortunately no, this is just for us we can use things from cosmology and some things it doesn't explain, but it will still be a different continuity from the manga, but being canon to the verse

Can I put it as you agree?
Click to expand...
No, I don't believe that purely anime-original concepts should be extrapolated back to being canon in the manga.

I check the plot and script sent to me by Toei Animation. I also do some designs and touch-ups on the characters, as well as changing names and things like that.
Click to expand...

Doing design-changes, touch-ups and changing names means nothing for their canon status.

Akira Toriyama: Even though I'm the original author, I watch the Dragon Ball anime just like everyone else, at 7 o'clock on Wednesdays. Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun. Everyone, both the manga and anime are similar, but they are slightly different worlds even though both have "Dragon Ball", you'll certainly enjoy both of them. (By the way, my house family has people, but I'm the only one who watches both the anime and manga of Dragon Bal... Hoho... Well, that is good.)
Click to expand...

Toriyama stating that there is "original content" in the anime means that it isn't all coming from him.
 
Damage3245 said:
No, I don't believe that purely anime-original concepts should be extrapolated back to being canon in the manga.
Click to expand...
Hmm? I'm not mentioning that the anime's achievements will be scaled to the manga, but rather that they will have the same cosmology, there are different things
Damage3245 said:
Doing design-changes, touch-ups and changing names means nothing for their canon status.
Click to expand...
It's not just that, but he changes the plot of the anime to be whatever he wants
Damage3245 said:
Toriyama stating that there is "original content" in the anime means that it isn't all coming from him.
Click to expand...
But it all came from him, he is mentioned several times, as having original ideas for putting things in the anime, as well as changing all things, he worked on his own work


But anyway, i'm not going to have an endless debate with you, i'm going to put it as disagree, it's okay to disagree with the things you don't like.
 
Damage3245 said:
Toriyama stating that there is "original content" in the anime means that it isn't all coming from him.
Click to expand...
Eh. This is explicitly reference to him forgetting developments made ON it (or scenes based on his Manga, which we know he factually gave input on), making them fresh to HIM when he watches TV.

“…Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun.”

And other scans in OP talk about how the ideas themselves are often penned by him. Outlines, drafts, that sort of thing—Meaning his influence is pretty hefty/undeniable. So I don’t think this, specifically, is a valid counterpoint. I’ll wait for more arguments before I pick a side, though.
 
RedReaper said:
And other scans in OP talk about how the ideas themselves are often penned by him. Outlines, drafts, that sort of thing—Meaning his influence is pretty hefty/undeniable
Click to expand...
Not denying there's strong influence from Toriyama - but I don't agree that it's enough for it be considered pure canon:

Even though it is "original", episodes and character ideas usually come from Toriyama-sensei (see article below).
Click to expand...

Emphasis put here by me to show that there are ideas that don't come from Toriyama... How are we to know what is his and what is not?

In addition, Toei Animation also made stories with an understanding of the Dragon Ball world, based on the concept that, although they weren't portrayed in the manga: "something like this probably happened".It's thanks to these unseen efforts that you can watch the source material without it seeming out of place.
Click to expand...

So not a case of "Something that did happen" but something "like this probably happened".

It's designed to not appearing conflicting with the source material sure... but that's not the exact same thing as it is a part of the source material.
 
RedReaper said:
Eh. This is explicitly reference to him forgetting developments made ON it (or scenes based on his Manga, which we know he factually gave input on), making them fresh to HIM when he watches TV.

“…Even though I draw the manga, I sometimes forget about the development, so when there's original content in the anime, when there's a very exciting and powerful scene, I get "What is going to happen...", I'm eating my rice during the evening, and having a lot of fun.”

And other scans in OP talk about how the ideas themselves are often penned by him. Outlines, drafts, that sort of thing—Meaning his influence is pretty hefty/undeniable. So I don’t think this, specifically, is a valid counterpoint. I’ll wait for more arguments before I pick a side, though.
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it makes more sense, i agree you and with the thread.
 
Damage3245 said:
Not denying there's strong influence from Toriyama - but I don't agree that it's enough for it be considered pure canon:
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Well, what is canon to you? Because I'm explaining that it's canon for cosmology, I don't know what exactly you're disagreeing with here, but it seems like you're just disagreeing because you want to
Damage3245 said:
Emphasis put here by me to show that there are ideas that don't come from Toriyama... How are we to know what is his and what is not?
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What do you mean, man? It's mentioned that the fillers are ideas created in the plot by Akira Toriyama himself and converted to the anime itself as original material, then it's explained that the entire plot of the fillers is his, what more do you want? Do you want someone to come along with a watermelon and say "this is canon"? We're not trying to do something crazy like make DBH canon, i don't see the difficulty in disagreeing with that
Damage3245 said:
So not a case of "Something that did happen" but something "like this probably happened".

It's designed to not appearing conflicting with the source material sure... but that's not the exact same thing as it is a part of the source material.
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But it's part of the source material, since Akira toriyama himself tinkered with the plot of things

In fact, the multiverse itself is accepted as having the same cosmology accepted in another topic, "as you said, you are disagreeing with something that has been accepted for a long time"

This is just to further justify something accepted and to block that topic that you closed with no chance of us defending
 
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Ryzen7900X said:
Holy **** this is a lot of stuff I didnt know before. banger thread Luffy and i agree, the anime didnt materialize out of thin air and the fact that it for the most part it doesnt even contradict Toriyama's own ideas for the work is proof enough on its own.
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Exactly, apart from the fact that the Dragon Ball Z filler itself appears in Dragon Ball Super, including several other characters that only existed in the anime Z became canon, this is all because everything from the anime is canon to the Multiverse.
 
Damage3245 said:
Emphasis put here by me to show that there are ideas that don't come from Toriyama... How are we to know what is his and what is not?
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The statement you quotes says that usually these ideas are from Toriyama which also suggests that more ideas than not are from him. its easy to see the implication of this statement. To answer your question though we already have a good way to do that. if you go back to the old uncomposite thread, you'll see Executor_NO confirming that the structure of the Otherworld as well as the earlier parts of the anime are stuff where Toriyama was consistently involved in and gave most if not all ideas including drawing anime-original characters himself. I believe this is good enough evidence to know what is his, as for what isnt his someone else will probably figure that out
Damage3245 said:
So not a case of "Something that did happen" but something "like this probably happened".
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nah this is just semantics, when they state that "something like this probably happened" they're making the implication that what they showed in the original anime, something just like that probably happened in the manga. there's no reason for them to imply that the events between the two differed when their reference point are the events in the anime. Its more so a case of "this probably happened" as opposed to "this happened for sure", your statement only compare the probabilities not the version of events they necessarily HAVE to be the same if you agree that they happened
Damage3245 said:
It's designed to not appearing conflicting with the source material sure... but that's not the exact same thing as it is a part of the source material.
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which is precisely what all the evidence presented shows that it isnt a problem. events not shown or mentioned in the original manga, but designed or worked on by Toriyama and having been stated to not be conflicting, are events that more than likely happened in the original work as well.
 
Damage3245 said:
No, I don't believe that purely anime-original concepts should be extrapolated back to being canon in the manga.



Doing design-changes, touch-ups and changing names means nothing for their canon status.



Toriyama stating that there is "original content" in the anime means that it isn't all coming from him.
Click to expand...
Damage3245 said:
No, I don't believe that purely anime-original concepts should be extrapolated back to being canon in the manga.



Doing design-changes, touch-ups and changing names means nothing for their canon status.



Toriyama stating that there is "original content" in the anime means that it isn't all coming from him.
Click to expand...
Not only that. In his Daizenshuu 4 interview, Toriyama mentions first drawing the map of the Dragon Ball cosmos featured in Daizenshuu 4 and later guide books for the anime staff:

“For God’s temple, I gave it a comparatively mysterious feeling, but on the other hand I thought it’d be good to have the afterlife be realistic. So Enma-daiō and the oni all wore suits like salary-men. I think you can see this by looking at the world map in this book, but there’s a thing called the airport to Heaven. The background on that is that the people who go to Heaven all have to go by plane. This complete map was originally background information that I drew at the request of the anime people, but I took this opportunity to add the Kaiōshin World, which wasn’t included in the complete map before, to make it perfect. In truth, this complete world map is something I made after I finished drawing the story, to make everything consistent. (laughs) With me, I think up the story in advance, then come up with the world’s background information to be consistent with it. I guess that if I was a normal cartoonist who did things properly, I’d think up the background information first and…”

Translations | Daizenshuu 4 - Akira Toriyama Super Interview

The fourth of six Daizenshuu interviews with Dragon Ball author Akira Toriyama in which he discusses everything that makes up the Dragon World.
www.kanzenshuu.com www.kanzenshuu.com
 
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