Downgrading Ayanokouji's Intelligence

[Phoenks]

Nothing in the intelligence section on Ayanokouji's page fits the bill for Extraordinary Genius. He's not even close.

Here is the definition of EG, refer back to this definition as you read this post:

Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,[1] and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear.

I am an intelligence connoisseur and I will not stand for this!

Ayanokouji does not exceed the real world's upper limits in anything but his perfect memory, which is an ability, rather than intelligence. He is, at maximum, gifted, in a few areas. He can't create futuristic technology nor does he outperform supercomputers or anything like that. I will go through every part of his intelligence section.

Was stated to be a genius among genius.

This means nothing by itself so can be discarded. "Genius" as a word can mean a lot of things and is often used incredibly loosely. The wiki's definition of "genius" is also much higher than what it is typically used for, encompassing individuals who are practically at the peak of human intellect in specific fields.

Did "Taylor Series" equations at a very young age in the White Room, Stating that it involved Theory of relativity studies and Number theory.

This is impressive for a child but just being able to do complex math equations is not even close to peak human level's of knowledge or intelligence. Anyone gifted in modern mathematics would be capable of this much. Especially someone who was literally trained from birth to be capable of such things.

By the age of junior high/high school, Would have a mental age of 20-30.

This isn't... impressive? At all? Like, this might be the least impressive thing here because that just means he is on the same level as an average 20-30 year old mentally.

It was stated that he can absorb everything that is given to him via his adaptability and he never reached his "plateau".

This is due to his ability, which is perfect memory. This has nothing to do with intellect. It's a supernatural capability.

To elaborate, what I mean is that Perfect Memory is the capacity of Ayanokouji to subjectively determine what he stores permanently in his recollection. Thus, him being able to "absorb everything" is an extension of this, by nature.

Better than kid Arisu Sakayanagi who won against alot of professional chess players.

Being gifted in chess is a hyper-specific area of human endeavor and being smart in chess does not equivalate to intelligence in other areas. This is perhaps best represented by real-world Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura having an average IQ (102) despite being the #2 ranked player in the world.

The white room was stated to be having trouble measuring his knowledge.

What kinds of measurements do they even have access to and why are they relevant? Also, "trouble" doesn't really mean much. In the real world organizations have trouble measuring IQs over 160, but that doesn't really... mean anything in particular for that person's overall intelligence.

Is viewed like a god-like figure in the white room. The white room is a facility that aims to create geniuses. Ayanokouji was also stated to be giving trouble to the white room to gather new things for him to learn due to his learning speed. Mastered 5 writing systems at age 4. Was also capable of logical reasoning when he was 2 years old and Analyzed the pattern of a guessing game instantaneously and got a 100% which was a first.

All of this is definitely impressive for a child but none of it is really anything more than gifted intellect (Real-world prodigies have been capable of similar things. Research also suggests children can learn up to 5 languages simultaneously), especially considering he is literally gifted with perfect memory. He's just exceptionally prodigious. This doesn't support E.G

Learned various fields.

Being knowledgeable in various fields isn't anything special. This is really vague as well. Again, not a supporting feat for Extraordinary Genius.

It was stated to be impossible to reach Ayanokouji's level further showing the gap between him and the other children.

Another vague hype-statement that doesn't really mean anything in of itself.

Ayanokouji's Perfect Memory emcompasses his ability to recall information with complete accuracy and precision, including sensory details, instantaneously and effortlessly. His memories are passively retained indefinitely without degradation and can be selectively retrieved at will,

An explanation of Photographic Memory, which is an ability, not an aspect of his intellect.

Learned many martial arts as a 4 year old.

Impressive for a child, no doubt, but again, this is simply prodigious levels of intelligence, and is heavily, heavily aided by him having perfect memory. It's another gifted feat on its own. (It is possible for 4 year olds in the real world to do this very thing as well)

Quickly developed past Shiro completely in just back to back 3 matches and never lost to him again up until 9 years old, No matter which fighting style they used. ought adult fighters since there was no more white room students who were stated to be professional fighters in their areas. He has a perfect win record against professional fighters since he was a child. He is constantly developing a growth rate far higher than any other students. Defeated 6 fighters who were implied to be stronger than Tsukishiro who is an assassin and Shiba who is a white room instructor. Shiro said that for every brawl he had with Ayanokouji, He used to win a few first matches against Ayanokouji but Ayanokouji never lost afterwards, Despite both being trained in the same facility and continuously. It was noted by a young Arisu Sakayanagi that it is due to his "superior DNA", he adapted to the White Room training beta curriculum harsh training. Fought roughly more than 5000 battles in the span of 5 years.

Further support for gifted combat intelligence. He is beating other gifted fighters and has a lot of knowledge in fighting, but none of this really transfers over to general intelligence ratings nor is any of this exceptionally impressive in the realm of martial arts. The average shounen protagonist has 10000x better feats than this lmao.

Overall, I went through the entire intelligence section and ended up with practically nothing that supports him having intelligence that surpasses the real-world upper limits of humanity, nor him being comparable to supercomputers in processing, or even having exceptional knowledge in multiple fields of science. Not to mention, the stuff he does have is HEAVILY, HEAVILY aided by him having a supernatural ability, that being PERFECT memory. That in of itself takes away from a lot of these feats even more.

Honestly, I am inclined to say Ayanokouji is just high into Gifted, maybe Genius at the absolute most. But Extraordinary Genius intellect is in another dimension from him entirely.

Even looking to the examples of EG listed on the Genius page, you can immediately tell Koji has NO PLACE next to these people. Seriously, putting t a guy who has "learned various fields" and "mastered languages at 4" in the same category as Aizen, Batman, Bulma, and Iron Man? LOL. I mean, that's just blatantly ridiculous, isn't it? Doesn't take a genius to see the HUGE difference between Koji and the others in that Extraordinary Genius category.

So, yeah, my suggestion is that he be downgraded to Genius.


List of People that Agree (26): @CloverDragon03, @Deidalius, @Dalesean027, @DaReaperMan, @Grabbing_dragon, @AyeZ2, @HelloThere1089, @Rayfire, @Spicy78, @MasqueTLDF, @Dinozxd, @Nierre, @DaReaperMan, @EldemadeDityjon, @Arceus0x, @Qawsedf234, @ReaperAndBlues, @SatellaTheWoE, @Robo432343, @ThePrimalHunter, @Tomfer, @Hixkaryana, @MCH2, @DivineAura44, @LLA1400, @Vietthai96

List of People that Disagree (5): @TheHuntsman1001, @Worthless, @RoggerReggor, @TheOrangeGuy09, @XxZetsuxX

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ngl I think Genius is fine, but yeah absolutely not Extraordinary Genius

 

[Deidalius]

Wasn't there a feat where Ayanokouji beat a an advance chess supercomputer? Those supercomputers are more advanced than our IRL supercomputers and I've heard that modern chess bots can beat the best human Chess players in the world. I saw it in a TikTok video, it must be true.

 

[Phoenks]

Ngl I think Genius is fine, but yeah absolutely not Extraordinary Genius

Why do you think Genius is fine? Practically all of Ayanokouji's best feats stem from him having a condition granting him Perfect Memory, a supernatural ability that is even superior to regular Photographic Memory, which itself is a supernatural thing that doesn't really exist in the real world.

Having such an ability makes all of his feats MUCH LESS impressive, on top of them only really being high-gifted feats at most imo.

 

[Dalesean027]

Agreed to the downgrade

 

[DaReaperMan]

I also agree with the downgrade

 

[Livinmeme]

Also his match in chess ******* sucks, I, a 300 elo would have stomped him

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why do you think Genius is fine? Practically all of Ayanokouji's best feats stem from him having a condition granting him Perfect Memory, a supernatural ability that is even superior to regular Photographic Memory, which itself is a supernatural thing that doesn't really exist in the real world.

Having such an ability makes all of his feats MUCH LESS impressive, on top of them only really being high-gifted feats at most imo.

Uh, because the non-Perfect Memory feats you outlined seems like Genius intelligence to me? You legit acknowledge Genius as viable via your proposal but suddenly I'm getting interrogated and I'm the crazy one for thinking a full Genius rating is okay

 

[DaReaperMan]

Uh, because the non-Perfect Memory feats you outlined seems like Genius intelligence to me? You legit acknowledge Genius as viable via your proposal but suddenly I'm getting interrogated and I'm the crazy one for thinking a full Genius rating is okay

Some people are into that.

But yeah I'm fine with either Gifted or Genius, EG has no place here.

 

[Dalesean027]

Uh, because the non-Perfect Memory feats you outlined seems like Genius intelligence to me? You legit acknowledge Genius as viable via your proposal but suddenly I'm getting interrogated and I'm the crazy one for thinking a full Genius rating is okay

Eh which ones specifcally cause I read through and I don't see outright genius here either especially since most was either fluff statements that meant nothing or was aided by the perfect memory

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Another illusion meant it is end ,agree

 

[AyeZ2]

Wouldn’t this make his intelligence lower then Horikita?

 

[Phoenks]

Wouldn’t this make his intelligence lower then Horikita?

Lol she should be gifted. I guess I could downgrade them all. Hmmm.

 

[AyeZ2]

Lol she should be gifted. I guess I could downgrade them all. Hmmm.

I think I agree with the downgrade otherwise, but he should probably be atleast Genius rather than high into Gifted if the rest are going to be downgraded to Gifted considering the enourmous gap in ability between him and basically everyone else in the series, even white room students like Yagami.

 

[Phoenks]

I think I agree with the downgrade otherwise, but he should probably be atleast Genius rather than high into Gifted if the rest are going to be downgraded to Gifted considering the enourmous gap in ability between him and basically everyone else in the series, even white room students like Yagami.

In the same way a scaling chain doesn't automatically make you jump Tiers in AP and such, I don't think that scaling above Gifted is a good reason to make Koji Genius tier.

 

[wwereymy235]

Perfect memory is indeed an extremely useful skill, yes. But to categorize his adaptability as just perfect memory is crazy. Perfect memory in no way, shape, or form has ANYTHING to do with thinking and reasoning. You can memorize a subject and get a perfect score but you need actual thinking and reasoning to apply that knowledge into real life situations. A good example would be ANHS. All the strategies, planning, foresight, EQ, SQ, is extremely good appliance.

 

[AyeZ2]

In the same way a scaling chain doesn't automatically make you jump Tiers in AP and such, I don't think that scaling above Gifted is a good reason to make Koji Genius tier.

Fair enough, I’m basically just saying it feels wrong to me that he would be on the same tier as someone like Horikita or Ichika when the gap between them (narratively speaking anyway) is like a drop of water compared to the ocean.

 

[HelloThere1089]

Makes sense so far. Agree.

 

[Rayfire]

LIGHT YAGAMI ON TOP

Agree so far

 

[wwereymy235]

LIGHT YAGAMI ON TOP

Agree so far

Ayanokoji slams light Yagami, no diff

 

[Spicy78]

this the guy who could solve the kira case???

i agree with the thread, tho i'd put him as a genius straight up

 

[Rayfire]

Ayanokoji slams light Yagami, no diff

Not if this goes through

 

[HelloThere1089]

Guys relax. Y'all shouldn't behave like this. It doesn't matter who slams who cuz at the end of the day Sora slams all.

 

[wwereymy235]

Not if this goes through

It won’t

 

[Remus1998]

What about his EQ Combat intelligence?

 

[Tomfer]

What about his EQ Combat intelligence?

That's even worse.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Seems self-evident, I agree

 

[wwereymy235]

That's even worse.

That’s far from the truth. Ayanokoji has spectacular EQ.

 

[Tomfer]

That’s far from the truth. Ayanokoji has spectacular EQ.

Lmao

 

[Dinozxd]

Agree with him not being EG, though he should at least be Genius in both Intelligence and Combat Intelligence imo.

 

[AyeZ2]

That's even worse.

His EQ and BIQ are extremely good though.

 

[wwereymy235]

I’ll admit the profile is poorly worded and it’s justified to make this CRT. However a lot of the points were discussed in this CRT that made him EG in the first place.

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka Intelligence Upgrade (Classroom of the Elite/Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e)

Alright, so let me state something which doesn't need to be argued, Ayanokouji Kiyotaka is not only a genius, but more than genius. And even his profile has it mentioned that he's at least a Genius. So, let's get into it. Ayanokouji Kiyotaka: Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius Proving that...

vsbattles.com

 

[Phoenks]

I’ll admit the profile is poorly worded and it’s justified to make this CRT. However a lot of the points were discussed in this CRT that made him EG in the first place.

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka Intelligence Upgrade (Classroom of the Elite/Youkoso Jitsuryoku Shijou Shugi no Kyoushitsu e)

Alright, so let me state something which doesn't need to be argued, Ayanokouji Kiyotaka is not only a genius, but more than genius. And even his profile has it mentioned that he's at least a Genius. So, let's get into it. Ayanokouji Kiyotaka: Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius Proving that...

vsbattles.com

Nothing in that thread is sufficient enough for Extraordinary Genius either.

Not to mention, what matters is what is on the profile, not what is in another thread.

 

[Dinozxd]

Not to mention, what matters is what is on the profile, not what is in another thread.

A possible mistake in the profile's wording shouldn't really require a downgrade though, as it can just be fixed.

With that said, I think the thread doesn't really seem enough for EG as it's mostly just characters  glazing the character more than the character actually performing that feat. The only notable feat that should be looked into is the chess computer stuff imo.

 

[wwereymy235]

Nothing in that thread is sufficient enough for Extraordinary Genius either.

Not to mention, what matters is what is on the profile, not what is in another thread.

It is shown that he’s capabale of outperforming a futuristic supercomputer (mind you that COTE is set in the future) He’s the peak of every major field of education. (Left world class specialist in their respective fields leaving the whiteroom in just a few days of being there because of how rapid Ayanokoji learns things.) He’s able to make very complex strategies as shown in the X strategy and some other ones he made. He immediately realized the situation he was in as soon as he was BORN. Umbilical cord had just been cut off and bro was already thinking like an adult It seems beyond anything of our current world imo by far

 

[Phoenks]

A possible mistake in the profile's wording shouldn't really require a downgrade though, as it can just be fixed.

This isn't a mistake in the profile's wording, though. He's just indexed as a tier he shouldn't be index as, so this revision is to change that.

With that said, I think the thread doesn't really seem enough for EG as it's mostly just characters  glazing the character more than the character actually performing that feat. The only notable feat that should be looked into is the chess computer stuff imo.

The chess computer just mentions a chess machine. It never even mentions it being a supercomputer/super chess machine or even one of the top chess computers. Not to mention, he only played a move that was better than it... once?

Look, it is ridiculously hard to come up with a better move than machine, absolutely, but it isn't impossible at all. Machines are better than humans because they are vastly more consistent in playing the "best" moves. But humans can definitely, occasionally, play moves that a computer doesn't even realize are the best move. In fact, machines are also limited by their depth (how long they take to analyze a position). A machine may think one move is best, but after analyzing in more depth, will actually realize a different move was best.

Anyway, even assuming the best case scenario of the best case scenario, just being able to beat a chess computer isn't Extraordinary Genius intelligence on its own. Chess is a single game. And as I've said, it doesn't just automatically translate to other parts of your intelligence.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I don't know why his perfect memory wouldn't be an aspect of his intelligence? The ability to recall and keep knowledge perfectly is an inherent part of someone's intelligence; given how fast he's learning things, I'd definitely not dismiss it like that. Calling it a "supernatural power so it doesn't count" also doesn't really matter, to reach Extraordinary Genius intelligence you'd kind of need powers like that, since we define Extraordinary Genius as super intelligence.

That said, I don't know about him himself being an Extraordinary Genius, I'd argue he would be a low end one at best, but he's definitely a genius, you can't gloss over him learning 5 written languages at 5 because "his memory is a superpower" it's a superpower that directly aids his intelligence.

 

[Tomfer]

No matter what happens to his intelligence overall, he's still not EG in combat.

 

[AyeZ2]

No matter what happens to his intelligence overall, he's still not EG in combat.

Yeah. I agree with a downgrade to Genius for him overall, but Gifted seems a bit much imo.

 

[wwereymy235]

I don't know why his perfect memory wouldn't be an aspect of his intelligence? The ability to recall and keep knowledge perfectly is an inherent part of someone's intelligence; given how fast he's learning things, I'd definitely not dismiss it like that. Calling it a "supernatural power so it doesn't count" also doesn't really matter, to reach Extraordinary Genius intelligence you'd kind of need powers like that, since we define Extraordinary Genius as super intelligence.

That said, I don't know about him himself being an Extraordinary Genius, I'd argue he would be a low end one at best, but he's definitely a genius, you can't gloss over him learning 5 written languages at 5 because "his memory is a superpower" it's a superpower that directly aids his intelligence.

Exactly. Even then memory wouldn’t = learning. Ayanokoji has proved to be able to apply what he’s learned. If he only memorized he wouldn’t be able to apply it.