Dowan Ha vs Kiichi Miyazawa (0-2-0)

[DekuGlazer]

Rules:

• Speed is equalised.
• Starting Distance: 5 meters
• Location: Open Field
• Post-Training Key
• Tough key
• Random encounter.
• No Weapons
• Fight to death.
• Dowan's AP: 12.7 Megajoules
• Gamin's AP: 8 Megajoules

Dowan’s advantages:

• 1.58x AP advantage
• 2.5x LS Advantage
• Charge Shot
• Critical Hit
• Speed/Perception amps with Boosters.

Kiichi's advantages:

• Martial Arts
• Precognition and Analytical Prediction
• Information Analysis
• Damage Reduction
• Adaption
• Sky Eye

Dowan:

Kiichi: 2 @Serlock_Holmes, @DekuGlazer

Inconclusive:

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh, shit, a Tough match.

So, what's the other guy's best skill stuff?

 

[DekuGlazer]

Oh, shit, a Tough match.

Yeah trying to get this verse some more looks I didn't realize how strong he actually was

So, what's the other guy's best skill stuff?

I would say his Crital Hit which bypasses durability and his Charge Shot which is basically an unblockable attack, but I still think kiichi wins having the better defense for stuff like that and he has likely faced someone with these type of techniques

 

[DekuGlazer]

I vote Kiichi. Has Fear hax, his damage reduction and damage transferral would reduce the damage of critical hit and Charge Shot is also not enough to keep Kiibo down. Kiibo has a wide variety of techniques including the self made fighting style he created when he combined the 2 family techniques into a new one. There is other reasons but this should be enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fear hax is kinda weird because it only works on lesser fighters than Kiichi, so it only ensures wins if he's the favorite already. Damage transferal is also kinda just specific to that one fight. It does seem like Kiichi does hold the advantage otherwise but I'd like to hear supporters of the other verse.

 

[DekuGlazer]

Fear hax is kinda weird because it only works on lesser fighters than Kiichi, so it only ensures wins if he's the favorite already. Damage transferal is also kinda just specific to that one fight. It does seem like Kiichi does hold the advantage otherwise but I'd like to hear supporters of the other verse.

Okay I will remove my vote until better reasoning is listed.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Oh, shit, a Tough match.

So, what's the other guy's best skill stuff?

You know the fact his stats don't even change is ridiculous through all the years. Though props to the mangaka for sticking to the level he wanted and still showing how beastly they are. Though he does have a ridiculous amount of hax....

As for the match I currently vote Kiichi. My vote may change but Kiichi has too much hax and is a beast in martial arts.

 

[Armorchompy]

You know the fact his stats don't even change is ridiculous through all the years. Though props to the mangaka for sticking to the level he wanted and still showing how beastly they are. Though he does have a ridiculous amount of hax....

There's actually some higher feats in untranslated Tough Gaiden, probably not over 9-A, but definitely higher than the current ones. Speed too. But yeah it's a surprisingly consistent manga in terms of stats.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

There's actually some higher feats in untranslated Tough Gaiden, probably not over 9-A, but definitely higher than the current ones. Speed too. But yeah it's a surprisingly consistent manga in terms of stats.

But the author was like nah frick it give him hax. But sir this is a fighting manga how much hax can we....Give him hax.

Also what tough gaiden? You mean the evil Kiichi one?

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay I will remove my vote until better reasoning is listed.

Ok so, most noteworthy Kiichi stuff (there's a lot more):

• Crazy good at grappling. Like I'm not talking "puts someone in an arm bar once and then goes back to punching" or "author googled what a german suplex is", Tough is basically the only piece of fiction that portrays martial arts grappling in a really effective and advanced way, if he gets his hands on you you're done. He can do it to people stronger than him, he can do it to people with crazy control, you mess up once and he's wrapping up around you and tearing your joints and ligaments to pieces. (He is, conversely, really good at countering grappling too)
• Can sense even minor weaknesses and exploit them by striking at pressure points,
• Can affect one's internal organs with various shockwave or chi attacks. Jirai-Satsu slows down one's thoughts, Bakutanken/Hashinsho both hax inner organs (note that they need to land properly and minor interruptions lessen the effect a lot) and Hakkei is a straight-up close range energy blast that goes through the inner body (keep in mind that Kiichi typically refuses to kill- it's not on the profile yet but it's being hinted pretty strongly the "no longer against murder" stuff is a lie. He will cripple if he has to though
• Insane stamina and really good at never taking a straight hit, really really difficult to take down quickly, and even if you do he can fight while unconscious, and that's disregarding more "haxy" abilities that allow him to redirect energy around his body rather than through it, and possibly even back at foes, or lessen damage with energy shields
• The above is particularly powerful because Kiichi has insane Adaptation (Currently listed as Awakened Power), he can copy techniques that would require a body structure different from his, and he just has insane instinct for adaptation, to the point that whenever he's backed into a corner he will come up with a new technique to help him win.
• Precog good enough to beat someone in pitch black darkness just by predicting him
• Sky Eye, possibly his most broken technique, allows Kiichi to view at drastically slowed down speeds, also gaining a third-person awareness of it, this technique is powerful enough for Kiichi to go from losing a fight to never taking a single hit when he pops it, or fight with all his normal senses disabled
• Genuinely just insane versatility, just look at his NA&T

Also what tough gaiden? Where can I find it?

The ongoing Tough manga is Tough: Ryuu wo Tsugu Otoko, also known as Tough Gaiden. There's also other Tough Gaiden but they're relatively unimportant miniseries.

Oops, saw your edit. Yeah, that one (turns out him being evil is a fakeout btw)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Ok so, most noteworthy Kiichi stuff (there's a lot more):

• Crazy good at grappling. Like I'm not talking "puts someone in an arm bar once and then goes back to punching" or "author googled what a german suplex is", Tough is basically the only piece of fiction that portrays martial arts grappling in a really effective and advanced way, if he gets his hands on you you're done. He can do it to people stronger than him, he can do it to people with crazy control, you mess up once and he's wrapping up around you and tearing your joints and ligaments to pieces. (He is, conversely, really good at countering grappling too)
• Can sense even minor weaknesses and exploit them by striking at pressure points, and that's disregarding more "haxy" abilities that allow him to redirect energy around his body rather than through it, and possibly even back at foes, or lessen damage with energy shields
• Can affect one's internal organs with various shockwave or chi attacks. Jirai-Satsu slows down one's thoughts, Bakutanken/Hashinsho both hax inner organs (note that they need to land properly and minor interruptions lessen the effect a lot) and Hakkei is a straight-up close range energy blast that goes through the inner body (keep in mind that Kiichi typically refuses to kill- it's not on the profile yet but it's being hinted pretty strongly the "no longer against murder" stuff is a lie. He will cripple if he has to though
• Insane stamina and really good at never taking a straight hit, really really difficult to take down quickly, and even if you do he can fight while unconscious
• The above is particularly powerful because Kiichi has insane Adaptation (Currently listed as Awakened Power), he can copy techniques that would require a body structure different from his, and he just has insane instinct for adaptation, to the point that whenever he's backed into a corner he will come up with a new technique to help him win.
• Precog good enough to beat someone in pitch black darkness just by predicting him
• Sky Eye, possibly his most broken technique, allows Kiichi to view at drastically slowed down speeds, also gaining a third-person awareness of it, this technique is powerful enough for Kiichi to go from losing a fight to never taking a single hit when he pops it, or fight with all his normal senses disabled
• Genuinely just insane versatility, just look at his NA&T

The ongoing Tough manga is Tough: Ryuu wo Tsugu Otoko, also known as Tough Gaiden. There's also other Tough Gaiden but they're relatively unimportant miniseries.

Oops, saw your edit. Yeah, that one (turns out him being evil might be a fakeout btw)

Also his kick which can blitz and one shot people comparable to him, the forcefield for negating damage and his various moves for doing this, his ranged ki strikes, the combination of precog and sky eye make him untouchable to similar opponents and even faster ones, the stuff he can do to damage internal organs or hit the head by hitting another spot of the body, basically the fact he can come up with different moves on the spot, his perception and extrasensory sensing.

Yeah I don't see Dowan winning. I have read the manga but don't remember that much crazy stuff from him.

Spoiler

Also Armor I need those speed and ap feats, also kinda pissed that the new series shafted Kiichi. Does it get better?

 

[Armorchompy]

Also his kick which can blitz and one shot people comparable to him, the forcefield for negating damage and his various moves for doing this, his ranged ki strikes, the combination of precog and sky eye make him untouchable to similar opponents and even faster ones, the stuff he can do to damage internal organs or hit the head by hitting another spot of the body, basically the fact he can come up with different moves on the spot, his perception and extrasensory sensing.

yep. Forgot to mention the kicks yeah, Kiichi has a leg mutation that allows him to throw insanely fast and strong kicks

Spoiler

Also Armor I need those speed and ap feats, also kinda pissed that the new series shafted Kiichi. Does it get better?

It does I think. I haven't looked too deep into the raws but I know he becomes a protag again. Also Kiryu fistfights a gorilla. Also Putin. Also

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

yep. Forgot to mention the kicks yeah, Kiichi has a leg mutation that allows him to throw insanely fast and strong kicks

It does I think. I haven't looked too deep into the raws but I know he becomes a protag again. Also Kiryu fistfights a gorilla. Also Putin. Also

Isn't the kick so fast and also weirdly done people similar in speed to him think time has stopped and then resumed after they get hit? Also he does have the unseen fist plus I am for sure forgetting some other stuff, like the gentotsu which can hit from a distance. Though currently is he weaker than prime Kiryuu?

Also...is that a dog absolutely murdering a wall?

 

[Armorchompy]

Isn't the kick so fast and also weirdly done people similar in speed to him think time has stopped and then resumed after they get hit? Plus I am for sure forgetting some other stuff. Though currently is he weaker than prime Kiryuu?

Also...is that a dog absolutely murdering a wall?

That's a side effect of the speed (so if you were fast enough to perceive it you'd be fine) but yeah.

As for speed/ap feats, there's a high hypersonic one, as things stand it's an outlier but apparently there's a lot of bullet dodging feats in Tough Ryuu so depends. As for AP the dog one you saw is actually the highest one, he busts through like 4+ walls in that leap. Also the dog knows martial arts btw

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

That's a side effect of the speed (so if you were fast enough to perceive it you'd be fine) but yeah.

As for speed/ap feats, there's a high hypersonic one, as things stand it's an outlier but apparently there's a lot of bullet dodging feats in Tough Ryuu so depends. As for AP the dog one you saw is actually the highest one, he busts through like 4+ walls in that leap. Also the dog knows martial arts btw

But speed is equalised here.

No...it can't be an outlier! Give it to them. How many chs out? Is it possible a better ap feat the dog comes? Also how does the dog stack to current top tiers?

 

[Armorchompy]

How many chs out?

idk

Is it possible a better ap feat the dog comes?

idk

Also how does the dog stack to current top tiers?

idk

(i don't really know what happens in the raws i've just seen the feats posted around)

 

[DekuGlazer]

You know the fact his stats don't even change is ridiculous through all the years. Though props to the mangaka for sticking to the level he wanted and still showing how beastly they are. Though he does have a ridiculous amount of hax....

As for the match I currently vote Kiichi. My vote may change but Kiichi has too much hax and is a beast in martial arts.

Vote counted.

 

[DekuGlazer]

Ok so, most noteworthy Kiichi stuff (there's a lot more):

• Crazy good at grappling. Like I'm not talking "puts someone in an arm bar once and then goes back to punching" or "author googled what a german suplex is", Tough is basically the only piece of fiction that portrays martial arts grappling in a really effective and advanced way, if he gets his hands on you you're done. He can do it to people stronger than him, he can do it to people with crazy control, you mess up once and he's wrapping up around you and tearing your joints and ligaments to pieces. (He is, conversely, really good at countering grappling too)

Nice so the LS advantage is basically negated with this information

• Can sense even minor weaknesses and exploit them by striking at pressure points,

Another win con. Dont think Dowan can stop this

• Can affect one's internal organs with various shockwave or chi attacks. Jirai-Satsu slows down one's thoughts, Bakutanken/Hashinsho both hax inner organs (note that they need to land properly and minor interruptions lessen the effect a lot) and Hakkei is a straight-up close range energy blast that goes through the inner body (keep in mind that Kiichi typically refuses to kill- it's not on the profile yet but it's being hinted pretty strongly the "no longer against murder" stuff is a lie. He will cripple if he has to though

Dowan definitely doesnt have an answer for shockwave or chi attacks.

• Insane stamina and really good at never taking a straight hit, really really difficult to take down quickly, and even if you do he can fight while unconscious, and that's disregarding more "haxy" abilities that allow him to redirect energy around his body rather than through it, and possibly even back at foes, or lessen damage with energy shields

This is one of the reasons i voted Kiibo honestly.

• The above is particularly powerful because Kiichi has insane Adaptation (Currently listed as Awakened Power), he can copy techniques that would require a body structure different from his, and he just has insane instinct for adaptation, to the point that whenever he's backed into a corner he will come up with a new technique to help him win.

I will add this in the OP it is definitely an advantage

• Precog good enough to beat someone in pitch black darkness just by predicting him
• Sky Eye, possibly his most broken technique, allows Kiichi to view at drastically slowed down speeds, also gaining a third-person awareness of it, this technique is powerful enough for Kiichi to go from losing a fight to never taking a single hit when he pops it, or fight with all his normal senses disabled

Another wincon. I wonder if he can use this to avoid Charge Shot? Adding this to the OP

• Genuinely just insane versatility, just look at his NA&T

The ongoing Tough manga is Tough: Ryuu wo Tsugu Otoko, also known as Tough Gaiden. There's also other Tough Gaiden but they're relatively unimportant miniseries.

Oops, saw your edit. Yeah, that one (turns out him being evil is a fakeout btw)

Yeah based on everything stated here I dont think Dowan can overcome this. This reasoning far better than mine

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way you should switch to 2nd key Kiichi, 3rd might get upgraded eventually while 2nd probably won't be, and it already has literally all I listed.

Charge Shot does sound like something he might be able to redirect with Haito-Gaeshi or Bullet Slide at least.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

By the way you should switch to 2nd key Kiichi, 3rd might get upgraded eventually while 2nd probably won't be, and it already has literally all I listed.

So as not to make the match invalid? Also please do upgrade it I'm all for it.

3rd Key kiichi doesn't really get many more new abilities huh? Precognition he already has.

 

[Armorchompy]

So as not to make the match invalid? Also please do upgrade it I'm all for it.

3rd Key kiichi doesn't really get many more new abilities huh? Precognition he already has.

He probably gets more in the RAWs, I'm just waiting for them to be translated (likely a slow process) because I want to have full context. Same reason I'm not upgrading them yet.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

He probably gets more in the RAWs, I'm just waiting for them to be translated (likely a slow process) because I want to have full context. Same reason I'm not upgrading them yet.

Irrelevant but how much content is yet untranslated? Also why was Kiryuu bumped up in relative strenght? New manga makes him as above Sono and Seiko, while the previous ones made them roughly comparable. Also was there any hint to Kiryuu having a heart condition or was it just shoehorned?

 

[Armorchompy]

Irrelevant but how much content is yet untranslated?

Uh like a lot, the original Koukou Tekkenden Tough series has 473 chapters, of which only the first 355 are translated (I've only indexed up to 343 so maybe I should go and do that rq). Tough, the second series, is fully translated but some of it is very poorly done and basically incomprehensible. Tough Ryuu, the ongoing manga, has 131 translated chapters out of, I dunno, some 300?

There's a couple untranslated spinoffs too, one, Devils X Devil, is a non-canon one where Kiryu fights a zombie apocalypse with guns, and the second "Oton" mini(?)-series, with Seiko as the protagonist, also not translated.

Also why was Kiryuu bumped up in relative strenght? New manga makes him as above Sono and Seiko, while the previous ones made them roughly comparable. Also was there any hint to Kiryuu having a heart condition or was it just shoehorned?

I dunno if he is superior, he's always been a jobber and from what i understand he still is in the RAWs

As for the heart condition sorta, vague and in untranslated KTT stuff but Garcia does die of a heart attack and he's revealed quickly enough to be descended from Kiryu's DNA so yea

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Uh like a lot, the original Koukou Tekkenden Tough series has 473 chapters, of which only the first 355 are translated (I've only indexed up to 343 so maybe I should go and do that rq). Tough, the second series, is fully translated but some of it is very poorly done and basically incomprehensible. Tough Ryuu, the ongoing manga, has 131 translated chapters out of, I dunno, some 300?

There's a couple untranslated spinoffs too, one, Devils X Devil, is a non-canon one where Kiryu fights a zombie apocalypse with guns, and the second "Oton" mini(?)-series, with Seiko as the protagonist, also not translated.

I dunno if he is superior, he's always been a jobber and from what i understand he still is in the RAWs

As for the heart condition sorta, vague and in untranslated KTT stuff but Garcia does die of a heart attack and he's revealed quickly enough to be descended from Kiryu's DNA so yea

Feel better if it was teased. Going without knowing that into the third installment made me shit on it and basically drop it due to sidelining kiichi, making him evil despite a decade of manga building his morals and making Kiryuu have a condition out of the blue. But seems like I misunderstood it.

Also who knows how many stuff we are missing...Due to KTT and Gaiden.

 

[DekuGlazer]

By the way you should switch to 2nd key Kiichi, 3rd might get upgraded eventually while 2nd probably won't be, and it already has literally all I listed.

Okay good point.

Charge Shot does sound like something he might be able to redirect with Haito-Gaeshi or Bullet Slide at least.

I agree

 

[DekuGlazer]

Official vote count:

Dowan: 0

Kiichi: 2, likely 3 (if armorchompy votes)

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So thread op was banned. Can the match still go on?

 

[Armorchompy]

probably, i can edit the OP myself if people vote

 

[Pedonar]

probably, i can edit the OP myself if people vote

Dowan page is under revision. @Armorchompy, can you please check the CRT? We need one more vote

 

[DivineAura44]

What does Kiichi start with in character?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Grappling or some esoteric stuff...Actually no idea better wait for Armor. I only remember the ending of the battles.

 

[Armorchompy]

What does Kiichi start with in character?

He's extremely versatile, I've detailed his Standard Tactics but essentially he's very balanced, tends to sometimes try to beat people at their own game rather than exploit weaknesses immediately but it depends on context, by SBA he's pretty serious about it so he'll not be afraid of dealing out more crippling blows. He tries to finish fights up quickly with grappling or inner-organ attacks but it depends a lot, this is a 1200+ chapter manga after all.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

He's extremely versatile, I've detailed his Standard Tactics but essentially he's very balanced, tends to sometimes try to beat people at their own game rather than exploit weaknesses immediately but it depends on context, by SBA he's pretty serious about it so he'll not be afraid of dealing out more crippling blows. He tries to finish fights up quickly with grappling or inner-organ attacks but it depends a lot, this is a 1200+ chapter manga after all.

So I remember correctly. How soon will he go for kicks? I don't think it will take that long. And if Dowan goes for some charging move he is either gonna do gentotsu or some inner organ injuring move.

 

[Armorchompy]

Dowan page is under revision. @Armorchompy, can you please check the CRT? We need one more vote

Dang, you got me.

So I remember correctly. How soon will he go for kicks? I don't think it will take that long. And if Dowan goes for some charging move he is either gonna do gentotsu or some inner organ injuring move.

The author's literally completely forgotten about the special kickies in Tough Gaiden, but he does use them a bit in Tough 2. So, I dunno, sometimes. He'll definitely try to reflect the energy stuff tho.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

The author's literally completely forgotten about the special kickies in Tough Gaiden, but he does use them a bit in Tough 2.

Yeah that's mostly because Kiichi has so much stuff to do. But I think we can make a pretty good guess that he would actually use them.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Dowan's profile is under revision with his stats getting downgraded.
Post-Training Dowan is 2MJ with 12+ MJ with critical hit now. Giving Kiichi a 4x AP advantage.
He's gonna get a new key when(if) the CRT gets accepted where he'd be 4MJ with 12++ MJ with critical hit.
I'd recomend waiting till then before making matchups with Dowan.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Is this potentially unfair?

 

[DivineAura44]

Is this potentially unfair?

He has no viable wincon from my knowledge. He could potentially even one shot with red key but sky eye likely just says no. I don't even see homie getting touched from how he's being explained.

 

[Armorchompy]

He's really tough (ha) yeah. I'm fine with treating this a stomp, Kiichi's a monster.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

He's really tough (ha) yeah. I'm fine with treating this a stomp, Kiichi's a monster.

Best martial Artist alive according to his dad.