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DOOM - Tier 1 Cosmology Proposal

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Donatien

Donatien

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Shouldn't the Doom Slayer/Doomguy be low 1-C via this statement about Hell? I saw another thread about this where this idea was rejected, but it seems like the people on that thread really just weren't making use of the actual information very well. They simply argued as if the quote said "Hell transcends space and time," which I agree doesn't warrant low 1-C for various reasons many of you already know. However, the actual quote is: "Hell is unlimited by boundaries of space, time, or dimension." Really quick before I get into how it proves anything about higher dimensions, I'd like to establish that being "unbound by boundaries of space" discounts the idea of compactified dimensions since compactified dimensions are blatant examples of "boundaries of space." Anyways, perhaps the most important part is Hell being "unlimited by boundaries of" "dimension" in particular. It cannot be talking about "dimension" in the sense of "universe" or "realm" or something akin to that since "dimension" is used as a mass/uncountable noun whereas "universe" and "realm" are countable (Ex: "I only have belongings in one dimension"). "An uncountable noun is a noun that usually cannot be expressed in a plural form. It is not something you can quantify." [at least not without adding another term, such as with "milk": "three gallons of milk" for example]. In fact, "dimensions" in this context cannot refer to "dimensions" such as height, width, and depth either since these are also countable (Ex: "Each of these boxes has three dimensions that we have to measure").

The only definition of "dimension" that actually works is "dimension" as in the concept of dimensions in general since concepts are actually uncountable (Ex: "the room was filled with hope") Now, this does not mean I am arguing that Hell and whoever scales to it must be 1-A. A more conservative interpretation of this is that Hell is simply unbound by the boundaries of dimension that have previously been established in the DOOM universe rather than being unbound by any and all things that can be considered "boundaries" of dimension. However, I vaguely remember SMT scaling to 1-A solely based off of this "specifically transcending the very concept of dimensions" sort of argument, so maybe Doom is 1-A. Definitely very shaky though.

Tl;dr The quote about Hell only makes sense grammatically with "dimension" being used specifically to refer to the concept of dimensions/dimensionality due to it being used as an uncountable noun. This means those who scale to Hell would actually be at least Low 1-C. rather than simply 2-A as their profiles say right now.
 
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Honestly, I agree with what you are saying, albeit I am nervous on how other people would see this thread and how things will go down. Not gonna stop me from commenting.

Going beyond just that statement, there is more evidence for Low 1-C Hell. Like it is said to be a superior realm to Urdak, which is a higher-dimension in comparison to the Earth Dimension (our universe), with shit like its technology being described as "transcendent". Even in DOOM 3 stuff (which should be used since DOOM 3 is confirmed to be part of the multiverse, in its own timeline separate from the timeline the Slayer we play as comes from). With Hell being described as a new dimensional plane, and with the strongest entities in Hell being described as "evils transcendent to time and space" in the DOOM 3 books. It has more space-time transcendence stuff than just that singular statement (Also like to point out, in the same scan, it says that it creates things that transcend time and space), and it is treated as a world superior to something that is 4-D (like a spacetime continuum) with Urdak. Alongside that it is beyond the multiverse, an infinite 4-D structure, as a whole too.

So I agree with Low 1-C, it is WAY safer than straight up 1-A.
 
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We have already confirmed the 2-A Timelines.

From the guidelines below, I can see Low 1-C Urdak and Hell being a thing, but I would like more input on the matter.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Q: When are higher dimensions valid, then?​

A: One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.

Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case.

Q: How do I determine if something is "transcendent"?​

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

Q: What tier is transcending space and time?​

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

Q: What is qualitative superiority?​

Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to. That means a character qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5. Someone qualitatively superior to that would have the same tier, but on the higher level of infinity represented by the R^6 and someone qualitatively superior to that level would be baseline Complex Multiverse level (Tier 1-C).
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.
 
Oh, didn't even see the 1-A stuff. Yea I hard disagree on that, but still neutral towards Low 1-C.
 
Shmooply said:
Bumping threads is allowed, and you can contact staff on their walls.
As for my thoughts on this, I'm neutral for now.
Click to expand...
I might as well try to get more support, so I'll ask you: Why do you only feel neutral about it?
 
According to our QnA page, statements like "beyond dimensions" should not be taken at face value without solid evidence. In the case of SMT, they established a clear relationship between higher and lower dimensions and an explicit concept of dimension. DOOM does not have anything remotely close to that, which means we cannot apply the logic of SMT.

I could see some possibility for Low 1-C, but 1-A is definitely a big no.
 
Is this the only statement avaliable on Hell's nature? Generally speaking, being unbound by certain things is not taken to necessarily mean superiority over said things. We wouldn't rate "Unbound by spacetime" statements as Low 1-C without further elaboration, for instance. As far as I see, the same would apply here, especially given how the exact phrasing is just "unlimited by boundaries of space, time and dimension," which at face value can perfectly just be taken to mean Hell is infinite in size, both spatially and temporally.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Is this the only statement avaliable on Hell's nature? Generally speaking, being unbound by certain things is not taken to necessarily mean superiority over said things. We wouldn't rate "Unbound by spacetime" statements as Low 1-C without further elaboration, for instance. As far as I see, the same would apply here, especially given how the exact phrasing is just "unlimited by boundaries of space, time and dimension," which at face value can perfectly just be taken to mean Hell is infinite in size, both spatially and temporally.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna go over this and more evidence on it being Low 1-C. I'm not the best at this (nor do I really care for Tier 1, all about that Tier 2) so don't crucify me.

There is stuff for Hell that shows that what you said isn't the case. Like later on in that exact same scan, it says that it creates pathways of darkness, which connect universes, that transcend time and space, along with beings from Hell being described as "Evils transcendent to time and space". So it is emphasized that it transcends time and space, not just "infinite in size, both spatially and temporally". Furthermore, there is more evidence on it being Low 1-C beyond this. With it being said to be a superior realm to Urdak. It has to be a superior realm in a transcendent way since it exists beyond the multiverse (The Maykrs, beings that can see every single timeline in the multiverse with omniscient, inextricable clarity, and hold dominion over all dimensions, were completely unaware of Hell's existence until the Slayer showed up to Argent D'Nur. Plus it is accepted for Hell to be 2-A with its fight with Doomguy imploding the multiverse, so it is definitely beyond the multiverse). This does include Urdak, since it exists within the timelines of the multiverse (Urdak is the home world of the Maykrs. Each timeline has its own Maykrs and Doom Slayer. Logically, each timeline should have an Urdak since, well, that's their home world). This is impressive since Urdak is a higher-dimension to the universe/Earth Dimension, existing beyond it and its boundaries, along it being described as a "hub of transcendent technology".

For supporting evidence, it is described as a "new dimensional plane" in DOOM 3, and resources from Hell are described as "Extra-dimensional".

Also Hell it timeless, so I don't think it is "temporally infinite". But there is a lot of evidence on it being infinitely large tho.

TL;DR; It has a couple of spacetime transcendent statements and it is shown to have superiority over other realms.
 
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Is that all it takes to be 1A on the wiki?
To show that there are higher dimensions and to have a statement of being beyond the concept of dimensions?

Anyway 1A is a stretch. Low 1C, i can see happening.
 
Jamesthetaker said:
According to our QnA page, statements like "beyond dimensions" should not be taken at face value without solid evidence. In the case of SMT, they established a clear relationship between higher and lower dimensions and an explicit concept of dimension. DOOM does not have anything remotely close to that, which means we cannot apply the logic of SMT.
Click to expand...
Interesting. So 1A can be easy like that. Can I see the scans of that?
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
There is stuff for Hell that shows that what you said isn't the case. Like later on in that exact same scan, it says that it creates pathways of darkness, which connect universes, that transcend time and space, along with beings from Hell being described as "Evils transcendent to time and space". So it is emphasized that it transcends time and space, not just "infinite in size, both spatially and temporally". Furthermore, there is more evidence on it being Low 1-C beyond this. With it being said to be a superior realm to Urdak. It has to be a superior realm in a transcendent way since it exists beyond the multiverse (The Maykrs, beings that can see every single timeline in the multiverse with omniscient, inextricable clarity, and hold dominion over all dimensions, were completely unaware of Hell's existence until the Slayer showed up to Argent D'Nur. Plus it is accepted for Hell to be 2-A with its fight with Doomguy imploding the multiverse, so it is definitely beyond the multiverse). This does include Urdak, since it exists within the timelines of the multiverse (Urdak is the home world of the Maykrs. Each timeline has its own Maykrs and Doom Slayer. Logically, each timeline should have an Urdak since, well, that's their home world). This is impressive since Urdak is a higher-dimension to the universe/Earth Dimension, existing beyond it and its boundaries, along it being described as a "hub of transcendent technology".
Click to expand...
Urdak being a "higher dimension" doesn't seem to be talking about it being a higher-dimensional space, given that both it and Hell are also respectively referred to as "higher" and "lower" realities because of their position relative to the universe, and not because of any sense of inferiority or superiority being held between them. The "transcended space and time" quotes are not really enough, either, since statements of that sort don't and have never defaulted to Low 1-C, and the bit about Hell being hidden from people with multiverse-spanning awareness would serve as supporting evidence, but not as the main body of any argument.
 
Yemma670 said:
Is that all it takes to be 1A on the wiki?
To show that there are higher dimensions and to have a statement of being beyond the concept of dimensions?
Click to expand...
Being above dimensional space on its own is generally not really enough, just like being "beyond space-time" (Even in the superiority sense) isn't, since statements of that sort can just as well refer to the dimensions existing in the cosmology. Getting 1-A from that sort of statement would be feasible if being "beyond dimensions" was treated as something fundamentally above higher-dimensionality in general, though, and thus above the difference between n dimensions and n+1 dimensions.
 
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I mean considering Hell is infinite and 4D structures are just small parts of it, it should view them as infinitesimal and hence Low 1-C.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Urdak being a "higher dimension" doesn't seem to be talking about it being a higher-dimensional space, given that both it and Hell are also respectively referred to as "higher" and "lower" realities because of their position relative to the universe, and not because of any sense of inferiority or superiority being held between them
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But Urdak is also described as "transcendent" and treated as a world higher than the universe. What exactly stops it from being both higher-dimensional and literally existing above the Earth Dimension?

Ultima_Reality said:
he "transcended space and time" quotes are not really enough, either, since statements of that sort don't and have never defaulted to Low 1-C, and the bit about Hell being hidden from people with multiverse-spanning awareness would serve as supporting evidence, but not as the main body of any argument.
Click to expand...
You missed my point completely. I'm trying to show how it applies to our standards. Of course a space and time transcendent statement isn't enough, but there is evidence on it exists on a higher level (with it being beyond the knowledge of the Maykrs). Which is the requirement to warrant Low 1-C going off what Firestorm posted above.
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
But Urdak is also described as "transcendent" and treated as a world higher than the universe. What exactly stops it from being both higher-dimensional and literally existing above the Earth Dimension?
Click to expand...
Context. As I said, Urdak being "higher" than the known universe explicitly refers to its literal position relative to it, with it being "above" it just as Hell is "below" it on that basis. Given the precedent set by this, and the fact a higher dimension is not a place, but a direction, I think it's pretty clear what this statement is supposed to mean. The FAQ has a section specifically pointing this out, even:

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.
Click to expand...

With that out of commission, the "hub of transcendent technology" statement is pretty useless as proof of Tier 1, too, as are the other bits of supporting evidence.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Is this the only statement avaliable on Hell's nature? Generally speaking, being unbound by certain things is not taken to necessarily mean superiority over said things. We wouldn't rate "Unbound by spacetime" statements as Low 1-C without further elaboration, for instance. As far as I see, the same would apply here, especially given how the exact phrasing is just "unlimited by boundaries of space, time and dimension," which at face value can perfectly just be taken to mean Hell is infinite in size, both spatially and temporally.
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How can "unlimited by boundaries of... dimension" be interpreted as Hell being infinite in size? As I mentioned in literally the first post on this thread, the only meaning of "dimension" that makes grammatical sense in this quote is "dimension" as in the concept of dimensions. I'm not arguing for 1-A though since it would be better to simply interpret this as meaning Hell is unbound by the boundaries of dimensionality that have been previously shown in DOOM, that being 4-D. Therefore it is 5-D/Low 1-C.
 
Donatien said:
How can "unlimited by boundaries of... dimension" be interpreted as Hell being infinite in size?
Click to expand...
If a space is infinitely large, the default assumption would be that it is unbounded. As such, "unlimited by boundaries of space and dimension" would be an accurate thing to say of it. That's pretty much it.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
If a space is infinitely large, the default assumption would be that it has no boundaries. As such, "unlimited by boundaries of space and dimension" would be an accurate thing to say of it. That's pretty much it.
Click to expand...
Oh, you must be mixing up "dimension" as referring to the concept of dimensionality (Ex: 2 dimensional, 3 dimensional, 4 dimensional) with "dimensions" (Ex: length, width, height, time) or "dimensions" as referring to UNIVERSES or realms (Ex: a "pocket dimension"). As I pointed out in the first post, only the first definition makes sense. If Hell was simply infinite 4D and not Low 1-C, it would still be bound by the boundary of only having the same number of dimensions as every other realm in the already-established DOOM universe (or at least other than Urdak, but that's another discussion). This contradicts any reasonable interpretation of the lore and is therefore incorrect. The "concept of dimension" doesnt just cover length, width, height, and time, but also higher dimension(s).

In addition, the quote makes use of the word "or." The word "or" signifies DIFFERENT things. Even when used to refer to the same object, it still refers to different names for the object (Ex: "This recipe requires a bit of cheese, or 'queso' in Spanish"). Obviously the passage isnt talking about names, so the things themselves (those being the boundaries of time, the boundaries of space, and the boundaries of dimension) must be different. The only thing the "boundaries of dimension" could be, therefore, are the boundaries of being limited to 4 dimensions.

Also, having no boundaries by one arbitrary standard does not mean that something doesnt have boundaries by ALL standards. That is an example of the fallacy of composition. For example, an infinite 2D plane would have no boundaries of width or length, but it would have boundaries of depth/thickness.
 
I disagree with this for the reasons explained above.
Donatien said:
Oh, you must be mixing up "dimension" as referring to the concept of dimensionality (Ex: 2 dimensional, 3 dimensional, 4 dimensional) with "dimensions" (Ex: length, width, height, time) or "dimensions" as referring to UNIVERSES or realms (Ex: a "pocket dimension"). As I pointed out in the first post, only the first definition makes sense. If Hell was simply infinite 4D and not Low 1-C, it would still be bound by the boundary of only having the same number of dimensions as every other realm in the already-established DOOM universe (or at least other than Urdak, but that's another discussion). This contradicts any reasonable interpretation of the lore and is therefore incorrect. The "concept of dimension" doesnt just cover length, width, height, and time, but also higher dimension(s).
Click to expand...
I don't know where to start, but, yes dimension as in reality still makes sense, not being bound by it can mean lots of things like having countless realities, how their realities are different, etc. To say that only dimensionality makes logical sense is a bit pretentious when you consider any take uses fictional science.
Donatien said:
In addition, the quote makes use of the word "or." The word "or" signifies DIFFERENT things. Even when used to refer to the same object, it still refers to different names for the object (Ex: "This recipe requires a bit of cheese, or 'queso' in Spanish"). Obviously the passage isnt talking about names, so the things themselves (those being the boundaries of time, the boundaries of space, and the boundaries of dimension) must be different. The only thing the "boundaries of dimension" could be, therefore, are the boundaries of being limited to 4 dimensions.
Click to expand...
If an argument is pointless then just don't use it, it creates a bias. "Or" accomplishes the same in any take.
Donatien said:
Also, having no boundaries by one arbitrary standard does not mean that something doesnt have boundaries by ALL standards. That is an example of the fallacy of composition. For example, an infinite 2D plane would have no boundaries of width or length, but it would have boundaries of depth/thickness.
Click to expand...
If something's not proven then it's not proven, the standards aren't arbitrary, that premise is nonsensical.
 
Here's the current collection of sorted statements. Let me know if I'm missing anything.

Looking at the list, at the very least, "Possibly Low 1-C" should be a thing.
 
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