Dong Dong Never Die

[00potato]

Bruh. I never called it original, but it isn’t a fan-work. The wiki doesn’t care about originality anyway or else characters like bulk or half of all comic characters would be banned.
Two cameos aren’t enough to make it a fan-work. Neither is a somewhat unoriginal plot. Most of the characters are original, and still has plot elements away from Terminator, like the whole competition bit.

 

[Antvasima]

@Damage3245 @Antoniofer @AKM sama @Agnaa @Eficiente

What do you think?

 

[Promestein]

I mean... the tournament bit is just taken a bit from Street Fighter. I wasn't saying it's a fanwork (I mentioned that already), but it violates intellectual property.

 

[00potato]

Why is intellectual property a concern here? We ain’t the copyright police.

Anyway if you break things up like that, most things are extremely unoriginal. The combination is still a bit distinct, and Dong has enough of an identity (mostly do to its infamy as a wacky game. Along with the photo graphics and kinda decent gameplay) to warrant a profile.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

It's a free game and since when was it our goal to say that intellectual property violations are no good?

 

[Agnaa]

From prior cases, this sorta thing won't be fine.

Intellectual property is a concern because fanfiction goes to the fc/oc wiki, not here.

We don't allow fanfiction just because it has some original characters/plot elements. Yes, we still don't allow them even if profiles for those fanfiction elements aren't made.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

And yes I just made a AOSTH reference

 

[00potato]

From prior cases, this sorta thing won't be fine.

Intellectual property is a concern because fanfiction goes to the fc/oc wiki, not here.

We don't allow fanfiction just because it has some original characters/plot elements. Yes, we still don't allow them even if profiles for those fanfiction elements aren't made.

It isn’t fan fiction though.
I explained that point multiple time already, it is mostly original with a few cameos. Fan fiction is a work mostly about the already existing setting am characters, DDND has mostly original characters in a unique universe, with an unoriginal but still distinctive plot.
I am not repeating myself again.

 

[Daddybrawl]

The problem is these ‘cameos’. A cameo would be like Jimmy Neutron showing up on Fairly Oddparents, or a guest star on a sitcom, that’s a Cameo. A Cameo is perfectly legal and agreed upon by both properties. Dropping someone’s character onto your game? That’s not a Cameo, it’s not even a Reference, it’s plagiarism.

 

[Agnaa]

Those few "cameos" of copyrighted characters make it fanfiction. We do not define fanfiction as having almost entirely the same setting and the same characters. Otherwise we'd allow shit like ******* Sonichu here.

To be fair, there are some verses that I'd like to include that I can't because of their occasional ripping of copyright characters. Rowdy ******* Cop Killers is mostly an original verse - an entirely original setting with a shitton of original characters and an original story - but it has a few MLP OCs and Sonichu in it, which makes it more suited to fc/oc wiki.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

To quote a Roblox trailer "It's free!" and the creator isn't claiming to have created every character in the game or anything like that

 

[Agnaa]

It does not matter if it doesn't cost money.

It does not matter if they claim to have created the characters or not.

It does not matter if it has a bunch of original characters too.

They are using characters that they do not have the rights to, making it fanfiction.

We are not the copyright police, but we have a separate wiki for works like that. Take it there.

 

[00potato]

In sonichu’s case he is the protagonist, the whole setting is built around a sonic OC. That is fan-fiction because the entire story is built around a non-original character and premise.
DDND isn’t built around a fan character, the setting is original, the major characters are original and it stands on its own.
By that logic we can’t have any Netherrealm profiles because they have a few cameos. That is still a fan-fic/crossover game by your logic.

Officiality matters not for this thread. We are not the law, we do not need to care about that. If it’s mostly original and notable (not that notable ness even matters with all the obscure web-novels popping up.)
Hell I would be fine with whatever the hell RFCK is.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

It would be stealing to not give credit or if they didn't claim there were more than one person who created the characters in game. The creator even refers to Mario as Uncle Mario.

 

[Agnaa]

What are these "cameos" in Netherrealm? We allow cameos that are allowed because the rightsholders. If they're allowed by the rightsholders then it's fine, if not then delete it I guess.

Officiality matters because something done officially is not fanfiction. I don't want to classify every Marvel/DC comic written in the past 40 years as fanfiction because they were written by fans of earlier comics.

I'd rather not push the line this far on "mostly original", to where we just have literally the exact same character popping up as playable characters within a verse. I would be okay if it was simply a strong reference, Versus Umbra has some hidden costumes that let you play as a few characters (such as Vault Boy, Gordon Freeman) drawn in the verse's style.

If it's something more akin to that (which it might be with Ican't saying Mario's called Uncle Mario) I'd be okay with it, but I'd defer to Promestein's judgement on how similar it is.

@Ican't We don't care about stealing, we care about putting profiles on the correct site.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Slightly off topic, but I feel like we should care about stealing. If we start categorizing verses that are known for Plagiarism, what does that say about the wiki?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't want to go down the road of deleting verses for moral crimes. Especially ones on the level of plagiarism, considering we include verses written by racists, rapists, and pedophiles.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Alright, that’s fine. I’m sure the topic could be held for a different day, anyways- it’s not entirely the main focus of the thread, after all

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Slightly off topic, but I feel like we should care about stealing. If we start categorizing verses that are known for Plagiarism, what does that say about the wiki?

Good point

Officiality matters because something done officially is not fanfiction. I don't want to classify every Marvel/DC comic written in the past 40 years as fanfiction because they were written by fans of earlier comics.

We need to delete Henry Stickmin then

 

[00potato]

Why do we care about what the right holders allow (that ain’t our problem.)? You claim to not want moral deletion but the only good reason for this deletion is a dislike of plagiarism. It isn’t a fan-work just like how MK isn’t a crossover game and how Versus Umbra and others are allowed.

I don’t care what you would rather do. Banning it for a single character and one attack when everything else is original, is stupid.

What makes Mario in this case worse then Versus Umbra, both are playable characters from other settings with little importance added for fun? Hell could we remove cameo-ridden verses lHenry Stickman for this? Or even stuff like South Park considering how many real people were added in, likely without permission.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Agree FRA and Goodname points

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We separate the work from the author; however, if the work itself is a serious crime. That is a different story.

 

[00potato]

We separate the work from the author; however, if the work itself is a serious crime. That is a different story.

That is fine, maybe a bit questionable with more severe crimes but understandable.

This isn’t super relevant though. DDND isn’t exactly a moral problem.

 

[Agnaa]

We need to delete Henry Stickmin then

I'm not familiar with it at all so I can't comment. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. You can't just keep chucking out verse names and expecting me to understand what the **** you mean. All of the examples I've given I've taken care to actually explain.

Why do we care about what the right holders allow (that ain’t our problem.)?

Because we have a separate wiki for fanfiction.

You claim to not want moral deletion but the only good reason for this deletion is a dislike of plagiarism.

I have repeatedly, over and over, ad nauseum, said that it has nothing to do with that. It's because we have fc-oc wiki for these works.

It isn’t a fan-work just like how MK isn’t a crossover game

I am completely unfamiliar with MK's situation.

What makes Mario in this case worse then Versus Umbra, both are playable characters from other settings with little importance added for fun?

I already said that if the Mario case is actually like that I'd be okay with it. Jesus Christ, why are you incapable of reading my posts?

Or even stuff like South Park considering how many real people were added in, likely without permission.

I don't consider real people to be characters written by an author with a rightsholder.

 

[00potato]

Considering that you keep trying to suggest that it counts as fan-fiction for a few cameos, I did read it correctly.

If you are unfamiliar with those situations then your argument kinda falls apart.
Henry Stickman has a ton of references and cameos in every game.
MK has a shit brick house of guest characters, if a single character and attack makes DDND a fan-game. Then MK is a crossover ala smash and BBCBT.

Wouldn’t real people being used without permission be a bigger problem then fictional characters? One is an actual person with a reputation, the other is a fancy drawing. You can’t be fine with one and not the other.
It isn’t like South Park never uses fictional characters either.

 

[Agnaa]

If you are unfamiliar with those situations then your argument kinda falls apart.

My argument never relied on them.

Henry Stickman has a ton of references and cameos in every game.

I have no details on these references or cameos to tell whether they're justified.

MK has a shit brick house of guest characters, if a single character and attack makes DDND a fan-game. Then MK is a crossover ala smash and BBCBT.

What the absolute **** do crossovers have to do with this thread? And I would be blown away if MK used those characters without rights.

Wouldn’t real people being used without permission be a bigger problem then fictional characters? One is an actual person with a reputation, the other is a fancy drawing. You can’t be fine with one and not the other.

No, because...

THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY

IT IS NOT ABOUT PEOPLE HAVING REPUTATIONS

IT IS NOT ABOUT MY MORAL GRIEVANCE

It is about the fact that we have a wiki for fanfiction. And so, fanfiction should go there. This is not a moral indictment, it is our categorization system.

It isn’t like South Park never uses fictional characters either.

Every time I've seen them use fictional characters they've done parodies. Close enough names and designs to be recognizable but not enough to infringe on copyright or really be considered fanfiction.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I have no details on these references or cameos to tell whether they're justified.

Here you go

 

[Mariogoods]

Ah, yes. Mario, Optimus Prime, and the plot of a Chinese Terminator movie. How original.

The problem is that we can still make profiles even after we remove the contents you said above.

For the originally of the plot, I have my argument in #6.

In The Terminator series, main antagonist kidnapped challengers attending a competition, main protagonist's evil enegry being purposely triggered by the main antagonist, main protagonist in his evil side forced to fight against his will, every playable challengers being sent to hallucination where they must manage to break out if they don't want to be main antagonist's puppet, Shenzhou 7 successfully launched after main antagonist's defeat are high likely not appear. T-800 or other The Terminator never throw you into the 2-D game world. Talking about every challenger, their purposes of attending the competition are different.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ican't From the first few on the list those sound like the same standard references that are in tons of media:

007 - In the remastered version of Infiltrating the Airship during Pure Blooded Thief route, a golden gun can be seen in the vault. This is a reference to the movie The Man with the Golden Gun.

No clue why you're bringing this sort of stuff up to defend literally including Mario as a playable character.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

@Ican't From the first few on the list those sound like the same standard references that are in tons of media:

No clue why you're bringing this sort of stuff up to defend literally including Mario as a playable character.

There are more non-standard references than standard ones though and in Fleeing the Complex Freddy Fazbear shows up without Scott's permission. That page is pretty large. The Henry Stickmin Collection still has Freddy and other copy-righted material in it.

Mario is simply a bonus Easter Egg character while the same can't be said for all of Henry's references.

 

[00potato]

You are right about one thing.
This isn’t about moral grievance. This is about whether this counts as fan-fic.

It doesn’t for the same reason we don’t count MK as a crossover game (why I brought it up, have you never heard of a comparison? it isn’t that hard Jeffery.) One or two cameos doesn’t change what we consider a game. If it did all of MK would be held to the same standards as Smash Brothers or BBCBT.
Adress that argument rather then dismissing it via stupidity.
If the main plot is original, the main characters original, and the setting is notable, how is it fan-fiction?
You keep asserting it as fan-fic, for what reason? The cameos aren’t important to the plot.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ican't Well, I don't think Dong Dong is pushing the boundaries on that then. I'd probably err on the side of keeping both then, assuming Prome can back up what you say as true. I'd rather not move both, but I could understand us doing so.

@00potato We have different standards for considering things crossovers than we do for considering them fanfiction.

I'd say it's a fanfic if there are sufficiently prominent characters from other works that they don't have the rights to use. Even if the main plot is original and the main characters are original.

I'm not sure where exactly to draw the line, but from Ican't description it doesn't sound like Dong Dong actually crosses it.

 

[Mariogoods]

@Ican't Well, I don't think Dong Dong is pushing the boundaries on that then. I'd probably err on the side of keeping both then, assuming Prome can back up what you say as true. I'd rather not move both, but I could understand us doing so.

@00potato We have different standards for considering things crossovers than we do for considering them fanfiction.

I'd say it's a fanfic if there are sufficiently prominent characters from other works that they don't have the rights to use. Even if the main plot is original and the main characters are original.

I'm not sure where exactly to draw the line, but from Ican't description it doesn't sound like Dong Dong actually crosses it.

It is not fanfic. Thedeveloper clear states that Mario is an eastern egg character. You can see the statement in #6. Still, there are characters such as Ming Boy, Football Thug (Zu Qiu Liu Mang), Jiang Bao, Wu Liao Jun, Sun Wukong, Zhuge Liang who attend the fighting game until Shen Hua Nan kidnapped them.

 

[Promestein]

Even if people decide we should keep the page, it should at least be discussed. That's what I want.

I wouldn't say it's fanfiction but Mario is a playable character and Optimus is in another moveset. I think that's a bit more than your typical cameo.

Stop comparing shit like like MK or Smash Bros to this. This is completely different, you know it's different, you keep on being told it's different, but you keep on repeating the same point over and over again when it's a false equivalence.

It's also easter egg, not eastern egg.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean to be fair, Ungalo from JJBA has Spider-Man, Kenshiro, Mickey Mouse, etc. in his moveset.

I'd like a strong reason to be established for this verse not being on the wiki.

 

[Promestein]

They don't actually even show up in the manga though, even. They're briefly mentioned, but Araki couldn't actually show them due to copyright issues.

If people are fine with it I don't really care, I just figured it was a discussion important to have and was clearly inclined against it at first. We should find a place to draw a line anyways.

 

[Agnaa]

Oh I didn't realize that, fair enough. I was also inclined against it when I first saw it in recent activity but couldn't think of any actual reason to delete it.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

The name of the game says he doesn't die so his profile isn't being deleted.

 

[00potato]

I agree with just discussing it.

You point out that we have different standards for what makes a cross-over, but with how much similarity we came across between the two, shouldn’t they be consistent?

A single attack and a single unimportant character should not be enough to make something a Fanwork. If most of the media is original and well known, what is the issue? We allow South Park and Henry.

 

[Promestein]

Irrelevant brief cameo or parody? People somehow extrapolating to ******* references and inspiration? Whatever.

A character in a fighting game, included without permission, and thus violating IP? That's the issue. There is no similarity here with any other example you've listed. If you want a meaningful example for comparison, Goku is a major character in the rpg Epic Battle Fantasy, and we have pages for that. (We don't have a page for him, though.)