Dong Dong Never Die

[Agnaa]

I don't know what similarities you've found between the two.

South Park doesn't have this issue, as I've explained above, so please stop using it. Henry is a legitimate example but could just be removed too.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Have we reached an conclusion or answer yet?

 

[Promestein]

Clearly not.

 

[Agnaa]

I dunno how much logic there is to this, but I think that the line should be drawn at a character having their own moveset, so I'd be fine with removing Epic Battle Fantasy and Dong Dong (assuming that this is how Uncle Mario's treated in Dong Dong). I think Versus Umbra having a few cosmetic skin changes drawn in their own style is fine. I'm pretty torn on the Henry Sitckmin example, mostly because I don't know how significant Freddy's inclusion is.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Epic Battle Fantasy

I have no clue what this is and why that's being mentioned

assuming that this is how Uncle Mario's treated in Dong Dong

From I have seen Mario's move set is based on Akuma's

 

[Promestein]

EBF ends up ditching Goku (as a result of establishing itself as a more official series rather than just a random flash), for the record. Also seems to avoid tiering the games from before that.

If you don't know what Epic Battle Fantasy is you clearly haven't been reading my posts.

 

[Agnaa]

@Ican't EBF was described by Prome above

If you want a meaningful example for comparison, Goku is a major character in the rpg Epic Battle Fantasy, and we have pages for that. (We don't have a page for him, though.)

@Prome Do you know if the earlier flash games are treated as non-canon or anything like that?

 

[Promestein]

No, I don't know.

 

[00potato]

But where do we draw the line?

Legality, we have no reason to do that we aren’t a law firm, we aren’t at risk of copyrighted claims.

Is it too Fanfiction-y? We still, again have Henry and EBF. Umbra having skins is no better then a playable character in this case, both are illegally using the character. Same with EBF (you haven’t disproven the canonicity of Goku and that game has summons from other series.) and Henry, I doubt they have permission to use half the “stolen” material in the game. Is it because they aren’t important to the plot? Neither is Mario or a one off summon. If you draw the line at one character then remove these other verses, your call.
In the end I am fine with any of these choices.

 

[Mariogoods]

It is interesting to see the official introduction of the plot (with poorly translated official English text):

2009年广州市将举办“街头霸王”格斗大赛。决赛前夕大批参赛选手神秘失踪，所有的线索都指向了“生化男”。四川省公安厅人民刑警“东东”踏上了南下之路，他伪装成格斗家，誓要寻找案件的真相。
生化男到底是谁？为什么会有大批参赛选手失踪？
2009风云变天，一场浩劫即将来临。东东的这场战斗，将会改变许多人的命运……

There would be a "street fighter" fighting competition in Guangzhou city of China in 2009. Before the finals, many fighters disappeared mysteriously. All the clue leads to the "Biochemistry Man". A policeman named "Dongdong" from Sichuan province began the trip to the South. He disguised himself as a fighter, aiming to find out the turth of the case.

Who's Biochemistry Man? Why there were so many fighters disappeared?
There will be an unheard-of calamity in 2009. Dongdong's fight would change many people's destiny...

Update 1: Also, I think the profile can be still made even without copyrighted characters. They have said the reason why they put Mario in is for fun and reference. (Super Mario Bros. is also some Chinese's childhood in the 1990s)

Update 2: In another blog, DDND is introduced as such:

游戏中不乏肯、八神这种完全COS型角色，也有明仔、大懒这样的完全原创角色。中途出现的打汽车关卡向《街头霸王2》致敬，而《怒之铁拳》、《三国志2》等怀旧关卡一定会把你带回童年。

Translation: There are completely cosplay characters like Ken and Yagami while there are completely original characters like Ming Boy and Da Lan. The car-breaking stage in mid-game is paying tribute to Street Fighter 2. And nostalgic stages from Street of Rage and Tenchi wo Kurau II - Sekiheki no Tatakai will bring you to the childhood.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Thank you Mariogoods for your great work on this thread

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Agnaa.

00potato, please drop this subject. You have had it repeatedly explained why this won't be accepted by our standards. In addition, you have been an ongoing consistent time-consuming interfering nuisance ever since you joined the wiki, so I am starting to suspect that you do it on purpose at this point.

 

[Mariogoods]

Since I'm somewhat completely confused, a conclusion for everyone's viewpoint is not bad.

Also, I have some questions for this ongoing debate:

1. Could we keep this verse in VS Battles Wiki without Mario's profile?

In #87, Agnaa stated:

If you want a meaningful example for comparison, Goku is a major character in the rpg Epic Battle Fantasy, and we have pages for that. (We don't have a page for him, though.)

Because Mario in DDND is a hidden playable character (and a boss after player being sent to hallucination) who does not interfere the whole plot and power scale. (In fact, Mario is never considered as "competitors") I'm against Mario profile's inclusion from the start of the verse's inclusion and Mario's exclusion does not damage our ability to make a full profile for a DDND characters. If the meaningful example Agnaa stated is valid, then I think DDND could be kept under such compromise. (I have listed some of original characters in DDND)

2. If it cannot be hosted in VS Battles Wiki, could we keep this verse in FC/OC Wiki?

Personally, I support for keeping this verse in VS Battles Wiki and I don't consider DDND as fan fiction. I have noted the original contents in it above and the developer does not consider DDND fan fiction while credit the references. (And I think The Terminator elements are for players to lol)

 

[Agnaa]

1. To clarify, Promestein originally provided that example, I merely quoted her. And I would prefer that Epic Battle Fantasy be deleted, given that information, unless we discover that Goku was retconned out of it.

2. If it's not on vsbw, it should definitely be allowed on fc/oc wiki.

 

[AKM sama]

I wouldn't say it is fanfiction because I don't think characters like Mario and Optimus Prime have anything to do with plot. Call it easter egg or reference. But I am uneasy about allowing verses that set precedent for more such verses that use copyrighted material without permission. (I don't however think we have a rule against that currently? But I may be wrong.)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is the kind of practice strictly used in out-of-continuity fanworks otherwise, so it would likely set a bad precedent as you say.

 

[00potato]

I am fed up with this “drop it because I say so.”
I will not because I still disagree, you don’t have the right to control whatever conversation you want to.

 

[Daddybrawl]

The problem is that you’re bringing up the same points over and over again, despite being told why those points don’t work. You’ve mentioned Henry Stickmen or Crossovers 3 times now, and everyone’s getting sick of repeating themselves on why your connections don’t work.

 

[00potato]

Because nobody seems to be really addressing the points well at all.
I have seen your reasoning, it doesn’t work too well for the reasons I already shown.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, it is the kind of practice strictly used in out-of-continuity fanworks

If you think the use of copyrighted characters without permission like the way it is done here falls into the fanwork territory, then I guess it is something that should be made clear in our rules if it isn't already to avoid future problems. But I think we can get a few more opinions from other knowledgeable staff.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we need to set some sort of regulation text for this in any case, but I am not sure if we should base it on being similar to fanworks, copyright violations, or both in combination. The last option seems pretty good though.

Feel free to call some other staff members here if you wish.

 

[Mariogoods]

Well, we need to set some sort of regulation text for this in any case, but I am not sure if we should base it on being similar to fanworks, copyright violations, or both in combination. The last option seems pretty good though.

Feel free to call some other staff members here if you wish.

And the regulation is for complete exclusion or part exclusion (the copyrighted part). Also, if FC/OC can have such profiles is also a question (because fanworks and CV are somewhat... vague)

 

[AKM sama]

Irrespective of what we decide here, I don't think it should be a problem on FCOC.

 

[Mariogoods]

After consideration, now I changed my mind and think that DDND should be better in FC/OC Wiki rather than VS Battles Wiki and I'll merge the profiles in FC/OC Wiki. (As far as I know, profiles in FC/OC Wiki can have a match to VS Battles Wiki and the result can be added. That's a relief.)

However, I have some last suggestions for the upcoming rules. Instead of simply saying that "we ban it", it is better to give a link to FC/OC Wiki if they want to host such profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to write a draft for an Editing Rules instruction text?

 

[Agnaa]

Considering that it already links to JBW perhaps it would just need to be changed to:

If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki or FC/OC wiki instead.

(With appropriate hyperlinks to those sites)

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa:

Please elaborate regarding the exact rule text that you wish to use.

 

[Agnaa]

Hmm, double-checking I'm not exactly sure. There's currently two relevant rules:

• Do not add any original or fan-made characters to the wiki. If you wish to create any original/fan-made character profiles, feel free to do so in the FC/OC wiki. "Original" here refers to relatively obscure characters from self-contained stories created by members and their friends, whereas "fan-made" refers to ones appearing within fanfiction.
• Do not create any joke profiles, as they do not fit into our tiering system. Also avoid creating profiles for fan characters, advertisement characters, memes, YouTube personalities, reality television, talk shows, music videos, stage personas, and the like. If you wish to create such profiles, feel free to do so in the Joke Battles wiki instead. Take note that there is obviously a difference between a profile written as a joke, and the character itself being automatically funny.

I was originally suggesting adding a link to FC/OC wiki in the second rule but I don't think that's quite fitting. But maybe instead we could clarify what fanfiction is in the first rule? Perhaps adding something to the end of that rule like:

refers to ones appearing within fanfiction; works containing a sufficient amount of another piece of fiction's copyrighted material without official permission.

My explanation here may still need to be reworded to avoid misinterpretations or loopholes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do you have any suggestions @AKM sama ?

 

[Mariogoods]

Sorry, but I have to say that "refers to ones appearing within fanfiction; works containing a sufficient amount of another piece of fiction's copyrighted material without official permission." is not accurate. The example are Touhou Cannonball and Touhou Lost Word, which have ZUN's approval but we can clearly feel that they belongs to FC/OC.

Also, I have prepared a backup in FC/OC and will post them as soon as VS Battles Wiki one are deleted.

 

[AKM sama]

I am fine with adding this:

"fan-made" refers to ones appearing within fanfiction or works containing a sufficient amount of another piece of fiction's copyrighted material without official permission.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM sama's suggestion seems fine to me. It can probably be added if other members here find it acceptable.

 

[Agnaa]

Looks good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Should we wait for a bit more staff input before we add it?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me what we decided to do here please?

 

[Agnaa]

We decided that the profiles belonged on FC/OC wiki and wrote a rule-change to clarify that verses such as these (that use a sufficient amount of copyrighted material without permission) belong there.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good. Can you cite the rule text that we decided on, so I can add it please?

 

[Agnaa]

This rule:

Do not add any original or fan-made characters to the wiki. If you wish to create any original/fan-made character profiles, feel free to do so in the FC/OC wiki. "Original" here refers to relatively obscure characters from self-contained stories created by members and their friends, whereas "fan-made" refers to ones appearing within fanfiction.

Should have the last part changed to:

"fan-made" refers to ones appearing within fanfiction or works containing a sufficient amount of another piece of fiction's copyrighted material without official permission.

 

[Antvasima]

I added it: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index....bmit&type=revision&diff=6989425&oldid=6979886

 

[AKM sama]

Cool. Guess there is nothing to do here so I'll lock this.