Doctor Who Discussion Thread

[Doxten_]

Nah, at the moment, we consider containing all of Set theory to be 1-A+, you'd need an infinite hierarchy to reach High 1-A and a Brane cosmology would reach High 1-B rather than High 1-A.

I've not been able to find any Infinite hierarchy as of yet, I used to think the Spiral Scratch Time Vortex was one, but not anymore.

So, you're considering the "Bulk"(infinite dimensional) as part of the Set Theory?

 

[Quasar002]

In essence, you have the Physical universe, N-Space, which is directly connected to these conceptual planes through their transcendental links.

The higher planes don't really interact with them or just <are> them, for example, the Menti Celesti are Eternals who are themselves just the Dreams of Old Gallifreyans. The Chronovores where described as the Doctor as physical incarnations of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

As such, once you reach the Six-Fold Realms, you are in the territory of the Conceptual. This is another reason why I interpret the 11 Dimensions from things like Quantum Archangel to not really be referring to the Mathematical version but more so planes.

Things like when the Time Vortex and N-Space interacting with each other causes Mathematics and Science to cease to work and so on make me think that and a whole host of other things (including stuff that has N-Space containing a load more than just 11 dimensions anyway, let alone the Six-Fold Realm)

I understand. I also have a question, do all conceptual beings in Doctor Who have type 5 Acausality or is it just the celestis? Also the method of becoming a conceptual is to erase their own timeline, so they don't seem to have any real presence in space-time anyway, since they don't have a timeline.

 

[Udlmaster]

I understand. I also have a question, do all conceptual beings in Doctor Who have type 5 Acausality or is it just the celestis? Also the method of becoming a conceptual is to erase their own timeline, so they don't seem to have any real presence in space-time anyway, since they don't have a timeline.

AFAIK, no.

Only Cacophony/Carnival Queen has Acausality Type 5 since she is like the Gynoids who "Just are".

This also tracks with her apparent complete disinterest in the higher beings and her seeing them as "Baby Godlings with little imagination"

It's amongst the reasons why I actually wouldn't be surprised if Cacophony is the strongest being in the DW universe

 

[Quasar002]

AFAIK, no.

Only Cacophony/Carnival Queen has Acausality Type 5 since she is like the Gynoids who "Just are".

This also tracks with her apparent complete disinterest in the higher beings and her seeing them as "Baby Godlings with little imagination"

It's amongst the reasons why I actually wouldn't be surprised if Cacophony is the strongest being in the DW universe

I say this because memeovore gained denial of Acausality type 5 here on the wiki because of the celestis.

Memeovore

A Memeovore was an eldritch creature first appearing in the Doctor Who novel The Taking of Planet 5 and was capable of devouring meaning and concepts. During the temporal conflict known as the "War in Heaven", the Time Lords of Gallifrey considered creating a Memeovore to use as a weapon against...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I say this because memeovore gained denial of Acausality type 5 here on the wiki because of the celestis.

Memeovore

A Memeovore was an eldritch creature first appearing in the Doctor Who novel The Taking of Planet 5 and was capable of devouring meaning and concepts. During the temporal conflict known as the "War in Heaven", the Time Lords of Gallifrey considered creating a Memeovore to use as a weapon against...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Celestis are a rather special and isolated case, others concepts however are type 4 and 2, since the conceptual weapons are indistinguishable from the conceptual creatures themselves, and most of them have their own feats of not be truely connect to regular space-time

 

[Quasar002]

Celestis are a rather special and isolated case, others concepts however are type 4 and 2, since the conceptual weapons are indistinguishable from the conceptual creatures themselves, and most of them have their own feats of not be truely connect to regular space-time

I understand. Do you think the final sanction is the same method the celestis did or is it something different? At least I think it's quite similar.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I understand. Do you think the final sanction is the same method the celestis did or is it something different? At least I think it's quite similar.

Same thoughts about it is very similar, that's why I'll put it as possibly Acasuality type 5

 

[ByAsura]

In the Celestis' case, they vivisected their own timeline and a huge chunk of Gallifrey (hence Mictlan exists) to the point where they only existed at a conceptual level, but on their own terms (unlike a Shift).

For example, if you took The Doctor and erased him from space-time, he wouldn't exist in history but would still exist on a conceptual level in some form.

The Time Lords planned to free themselves of space-time by becoming beings of pure consciousness. But the Celestis exist between matter, thought, etc.

• This is a reasonably subtle idea, and several cultures involved in the War have had difficulty grasping it. As conceptual entities only seem to affect the minds of their victims, it’s often said that the entities are ‘made out of pure thought’, but this is clearly inaccurate as thought itself isn’t a substance. Although many people are determined to think of the entities as telepathic presences, or neurological parasites, or in some cases even “spirits”, in fact it’s much more accurate to think of them as nothing more than hostile ideas. They exist by bypassing matter altogether, and instead giving themselves structure inside the meanings of things.

 

[Doxten_]

Since I've been rudely ignored, I will assume the main ideia here is that the omniverse doesn't count as superior to the universe anymore, that's why the new Tier is being considered as 1-A+, but this is very problematic:
1- The Six-Fold Realm is just eleven of an infinite dimensional set in the Brane cosmology.
2- Saraquazel's people had their own form of science, far beyond BTC of the Time Lords and every universe/multiverse is considered different with their own rules.
3-The Cybermen intended to use the eye of harmony to create a new after-universe which proves that the universes don't have the relationship that you're thinking of.

If everything is not being considered in the revision, then I'm disagreeing with it, because the argument is being considered above the logic and would be better to rank the omniverse as Unknown.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Since I've been rudely ignored, I will assume the main ideia here is that the omniverse doesn't count as superior to the universe anymore, that's why the new Tier is being considered as 1-A+, but this is very problematic:
1- The Six-Fold Realm is just eleven of an infinite dimensional set in the Brane cosmology.

The Six Fold Realm seems to be somewhat more distant to just eleven dimension, in fact when the Doctor travels to The Morass (Realm of Chronovores and Reapers, a plane of Six fold realm), it is described as the deepest place where the Tenth Doctor fell, even though he has traveled to a place like the center of the Omniverse/The Glory which is described as a place beyond than all other dimension that Eighth Doctor had travel

2- Saraquazel's people had their own form of science, far beyond BTC of the Time Lords and every universe/multiverse is considered different with their own rules.

Saraquazel's universe is just the common step that creation has to mutate, just like Marvel the cosmos changes and mutates, essentially this is why Pre-universe is very different from the current one, that's why I don't think it should affect the cosmology

3-The Cybermen intended to use the eye of harmony to create a new after-universe which proves that the universes don't have the relationship that you're thinking of.

I sure this not matter, they are reshaping the universe to their liking, whether they want a simple universe or a complex universe is up to them, that does not affect cosmology.

If everything is not being considered in the revision, then I'm disagreeing with it, because the argument is being considered above the logic and would be better to rank the omniverse as Unknown.

ª

 

[Doxten_]

The Six Fold Realm seems to be somewhat more distant to just eleven dimension, in fact when the Doctor travels to The Morass (Realm of Chronovores and Reapers, a plane of Six fold realm), it is described as the deepest place where the Tenth Doctor fell, even though he has traveled to a place like the center of the Omniverse/The Glory which is described as a place beyond than all other dimension that Eighth Doctor had travel

Not necessarily, the right idea would be to reconcile different author ideas, not consider one idea above the other.

Saraquazel's universe is just the common step that creation has to mutate, just like Marvel the cosmos changes and mutates, essentially this is why Pre-universe is very different from the current one, that's why I don't think it should affect the cosmology

I sure this not matter, they are reshaping the universe to their liking, whether they want a simple universe or a complex universe is up to them, that does not affect cosmology.

No, Saraquazel's science is far superior than Time Lords' mathematics.

The most powerful tool developed by the Time Lords was
block transfer computation, the ultimate expression of
mathematics. With it, one could manipulate matter and energy,
time and space, and fold dimensions like so much origami. It
was the fundamental basis of the TARDIS technology that
surrounded him, and had even been harnessed to bleed off
excess entropy from the universe, extending its lifespan by
incalculable aeons.
Quantum mnemonics, the dark science of an earlier race of
Time Lords, made block transfer computation seem like a
conjuring trick.

Yet. It is implied that Saraquazel is superior to Yog-Sothoth.

`From Professor Travers? He tried to warn you, but you
destroyed him. You should have listened, Chapel, you really
should. When you summon the Great Intelligence, it will
consume you, before turning its attention to the rest of the
planet.'
Chapel turned from examining the rune cone with a
puzzled expression on his face. 'The Great Intelligence? My
dear Doctor, whatever gave you that idea?' He tutted. 'I knew
that Anne Travers and that crackpot father of hers were
obsessed by the Intelligence, but I would never have expected
you to join in. Do you really think I want hordes of Yeti
roaming around London? Terribly bad for business,'
laughed. 'I can assure you, Doctor, Saraquazel hasn't anything
to do with the Great Intelligence.'
`It hasn't?' It was the Doctor's turn to look puzzled. `Then
what is it?'
`I've told you, Doctor; Saraquazel. He who will usher in a
new age of harmony and prosperity.'

She caught her breath and continued. 'No. I could have
done. The power that I controlled – it would have been easy.
But that would have made me as bad as the Intelligence. No, I
banished it. It's stranded on the edges of the universe, riding
the blue shift outwards into infinity. Poetic justice, don't you
think?'
`Rest now, Anne –'
She smiled weakly. 'Thank you, Doctor. It wouldn't have
worked without your help. That extra strength . . . and the fact
that Saraquazel lent his own abilities . . .'

The universes are incompatible.

He was able to understand the problem in an instant: the
physical laws of his native universe were totally incompatible
with those of the dimension in which he was now stranded.

Three totally incompatible universes clashed. With
Saraquazel in the middle of the collision.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Not necessarily, the main idea would be to reconcile different author ideas, not consider one idea above the other.

I know, I'm just saying that the Six fold realm is something different from the brane dimensions

No, Saraquazel's science is far superior than Time Lords' mathematics.

Yet. It is implied that Saraquazel is superior to Yog-Sothoth.


The universes are incompatible.

That's what I mean, the later universe is superior because it becomes much more complex and changes, that's why the analogy with marvel multiverse

The theoretical argument goes like this. The end state of an open[1] universe will, given absolutely infinite past time, extend to infinity.[2] Our universe is open.[3] Therefore at some future point it will expand to infinity. An infinitely expanded universe will exhibit the following characteristics: zero local Einsteinian space-time curvature[4], and little, if any, matter over vast ranges of space-times.[5]

Such an area of space-time can be regarded mathematically as a domain of De Sitter space.[6] An empty De Sitter space can be shown to lead without additional causal interaction to the creation of a further universe similar to our own.[7] Thus as our universe approaches heat death, it will naturally ‘give birth’ to one, or more, successor universes.

As the characteristics required for the formation of a quasi-flat De Sitter domain will be reached within a merely large (but non-infinite) time, it is possible that this process has in fact already occurred, and that our universe is itself a ‘successor’ universe to an older open structure.[8] Further, if it has occurred once, it may well have occurred many times and a number (either large or infinite) of universes have come to be and ended, are currently in existence, and will come into existence after our own. Those universes will themselves expand, either to end as open universes, eventually budding themselves, or as failed closed universes opening out from only to ‘fall back’ to the surface of the original space-time. It should be noted that these universes are not the quantum universes predicted by the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.[9] It is therefore theoretically possible that their existence could be detected or that they could be contacted. It is in this theoretical ‘metaspace’ of universes that the Swimmers, in essence, predator universes, exist.

The approach of a Swimmer to a ‘normal’ universe could exert a force analogous to gravity between the universes accelerating its expansion in the way detected by Perlmutter & Schmidt (see footnote 3). We may, therefore, conclude that our space-time may shortly[10] impact another.

 

[Doxten_]

I know, I'm just saying that the Six fold realm is something different from the brane dimensions

That's what I mean, the later universe is superior because it becomes much more complex and changes, that's why the analogy with marvel multiverse

Ok, so we're are not disagreeing too much. My whole point is exactly this, there's more complex things before and after, so it could scale above 1-A+. Also, there's things about Tegmark's Mathematical Universe, which could be used as a complement.

 

[Udlmaster]

Since I've been rudely ignored, I will assume the main ideia here is that the omniverse doesn't count as superior to the universe anymore, that's why the new Tier is being considered as 1-A+, but this is very problematic:

It is above the Universe and the Multiverse, but it's just a higher degree of 1-A+

1- The Six-Fold Realm is just eleven of an infinite dimensional set in the Brane cosmology.

It's not. You can't both have the Six-Fold Realm being dimensional and there being an infinite dimensional Brane space.

If you say that the Six-Fold Realm aren't planes and are instead dimensional axes, then DW goes back down to High 1-C, and only in other universes could it have more than 11-Ds, there is no higher realm than the Six-Fold Realm within the Universe, we know from Quantum Archangel that, that's it.

If you suppose that the Six-Fold Realm are planes and are above the dimensional nature of N-Space, then that makes the Brane structure, infinite or not, ends where the Time Vortex begins.

Saraquazel's people had their own form of science, far beyond BTC of the Time Lords and every universe/multiverse is considered different with their own rules.

The part about BTC being made a joke is specifically talking about an Earlier race of Time Lords, not the future ones who'd become Saraquaezel and his people:

Quantum mnemonics, the dark science of an earlier race of Time Lords, made block transfer computation seem like a conjuring trick. With just a few words, a practitioner of their great art could grasp the basic nature of reality around the throat and shake it into a new configuration. A bon mot of quantum mnemonics could bring about a premature death, or a run of good luck. A sentence could transform a planet's history and destiny, changing a world of barbaric war into an elysium. And a carefully constructed paragraph could rewrite the entire universe. Or destroy it utterly. So what was Ashley Chapel doing using the deadliest weapon in creation as part of his operating system? With that frightening thought bright in his mind, the Doctor suddenly became aware of a word in his mind, a name crying out to be listened to. Saraquazel.

Yet. It is implied that Saraquazel is superior to Yog-Sothoth.

Ehhh, I wouldn't say that makes the Great Intelligence any weaker, just that Saraquazel has the power to banish him.

Given they share the same nature (beings from a prior universe gaining new powers due to following old laws) it's more likely they're comparable.

 

[Doxten_]

It's not. You can't both have the Six-Fold Realm being dimensional and there being an infinite dimensional Brane space.

If you say that the Six-Fold Realm aren't planes and are instead dimensional axes, then DW goes back down to High 1-C, and only in other universes could it have more than 11-Ds, there is no higher realm than the Six-Fold Realm within the Universe, we know from Quantum Archangel that, that's it.

What I'm saying, is that the brane structures of the other universes could be interpreted as planes too.

The part about BTC being made a joke is specifically talking about an Earlier race of Time Lords, not the future ones who'd become Saraquaezel and his people:

No, the after-universe has a similar magic of the pre-universe.

Panic overwhelmed him for meaningless aeons, his mind
thrashing across his new timeline in desperation. But when he
had calmed down, he realized that escape, although difficult,
was possible.
While casting his consciousness over the ball of cold, solid
matter that he was trapped above, he had sensed fragments of
the HIGHER SCIENCE which his own people used to manipulate
reality. The fragments were incomplete, corrupted almost to
the point of uselessness; but with Saraquazel's great intellect, it
would be possible to derive an equation which would recreate
a limited region of his own physical laws. And then he could
look for the way home.
To do this, however, would necessitate physical interaction
with the cold sphere beneath him, and Saraquazel's telekinetic
abilities were stunted in this reality. He needed another agency
to assist him, one of the limited yet resourceful intelligences
that swarmed over the planet. And his earlier panic had
brought him into contact with the perfect vessel for his
purposes: a being whose mind was, in some basic, instinctive
way, sympathetic to Saraquazel's vast mentality.

Time meant nothing to Saraquazel, trapped as he was in a
standing wave that bounced back and forth over a period of
fifty years, as the Chapel-entity measured time. But the task of
gathering the pieces of the equation would be a lengthy one for
Chapel, so Saraquazel focused his awareness on the earliest
point in Chapel's life that he could reach.
For twenty years he had urged and cajoled, directed and
instructed, watching as Chapel collected the brief snatches of
that HIGHER SCIENCE from every region of the planet. To assist
Chapel, Saraquazel provided him with the means of creating
obedient servants in the cybrids, although this was not without
risk. The cybrids embodied the essence of this alien universe,
and might pose a danger when the time came to use the
equation. The last thing Saraquazel wanted was to damage the
universe that was currently playing host to him.

 

[Udlmaster]

What I'm saying, is that the brane structures of the other universes could be interpreted as planes too.

Like I said. I don't consider the higher realms of the Six-Fold Realm to be a part of the Brane structure. I think they're entirely beyond that, given they're independent of Time and Space, so I don't really consider the other Universe's having more or less to mean anything more than having more room between the Guardians of Time and the lowest parts of the Six-Fold Realm.

No, the after-universe has a similar magic of the pre-universe.

I mean that's fine, but the BTC being a joke was done by Time Lords, not Saraquazel.

 

[Doxten_]

Like I said. I don't consider the higher realms of the Six-Fold Realm to be a part of the Brane structure. I think they're entirely beyond that, given they're independent of Time and Space, so I don't really consider the other Universe's having more or less to mean anything more than having more room between the Guardians of Time and the lowest parts of the Six-Fold Realm.

Like you said, 'ehhh'

I mean that's fine, but the BTC being a joke was done by Time Lords, not Saraquazel.

Yes, but I said initially

2- Saraquazel's people had their own form of science, far beyond BTC of the Time Lords.

Despite the book saying initially that was made by an anterior race equivalent to the Time Lords, it is confirmed that Saraquazel's people science is practically the same, they only use in different universes.

While casting his consciousness over the ball of cold, solid
matter that he was trapped above, he had sensed fragments of
the higher science which his own people used to manipulate
reality

The Doctor only assumed that everything was about the Great Intelligence because of Anne, and he was only summoned because of her incantation.

So, it's acceptable to consider Saraquazel's people science superior to the Time Lords' one as well.

 

[ByAsura]

Like I said. I don't consider the higher realms of the Six-Fold Realm to be a part of the Brane structure

I personally agree with this take, as well.

Saraquazel's people had their own form of science, far beyond BTC of the Time Lords and every universe/multiverse is considered different with their own rules.

That last part is most definitely true (I plan to touch on it with my most recent thread), and, if anything, you might just be understating it. However, neither the pre-universe nor the post-universe are part of the space-time vortex or apply to wider multiverse to our knowledge.

The Pre-Universe didn't have any proper time, and, as stated in Neverland, the Eye of Harmony anchored the Vortex. And the Post-Universe is beyond the influence of the Time Vortex, and an unanchored universe.

• Hedin was worried. ‘The source of the Effect is out of ourreach. No TARDIS can make such a journey.’ He was right,of course. The Time Vortex petered out a little before theuniverse stopped expanding, marking the point beyond whichno TARDIS could travel.

 

[Udlmaster]

The Pre-Universe didn't have any proper time, and, as stated in Neverland, the Eye of Harmony anchored the Vortex. And the Post-Universe is beyond the influence of the Time Vortex, and an unanchored universe.

We know this too due to the fact that the furthest the Doctor could go with a supposedly most up-to-date TARDIS (let alone his Mark 42 TARDIS) was the Reality bubble at the end of time with ME and that was stated to be the "last few hours of the universe".

And we know that the Doctor in this instance was willing to literally do anything to save Clara

 

[ByAsura]

I'm planning on showing a portion of my CRT in the convo at some point today or tomorrow. It's related to type IV multiverses and brane cosmology.

Would you be interested in joining it to see, @Doxten_?

 

[Doxten_]

I'm planning on showing a portion of my CRT in the convo at some point today or tomorrow. It's related to type IV multiverses and brane cosmology.

Would you be interested in joining it to see, @Doxten_?

Sure, it would be nice.

 

[Abu2411]

Are the Doctor Who books good?

 

[ByAsura]

That's kind of like asking if food is good. There's thousands of books.

Did you have a series in mind, want some recommendations, etc?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Are the Doctor Who books good?

Case by case, some are not related to others and others are already the continuation of a past plot of a TV episode.

 

[Abu2411]

That's kind of like asking if food is good. There's thousands of books.

Did you have a series in mind, want some recommendations, etc?

I would like some recommendations then.

 

[ByAsura]

Twelve Angels Weeping, Dalek Generation and (surprisingly) The Missy Chronicles were pretty good, imo. I'd recommend Alien Bodies, The Dalek Factor and some of the Virgin New Adventures as well.

In terms of series, maybe Short Trips and the Bernice Summerfield Adventures are worth a read.

 

[ByAsura]

at some point today or tomorrow

Btw, I'll have to delay this until tomorrow.

I found some new information.

 

[ByAsura]

Would Wave Functions existing in Doctor Who mean anything for dimensional tiering?

 

[Doxten_]

Are the Doctor Who books good?

It depends, there's some masterpieces, and just like the TV Show, normal stories without too much to add. But the concepts and characterization are way better in EU. My only advice would be to never read Timewyrm: Genesis, it's the worst story of all.

 

[Doxten_]

Would Wave Functions existing in Doctor Who mean anything for dimensional tiering?

Quantum Mechanics has several interpretations, but in the best case would be the Many Worlds one.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Would Wave Functions existing in Doctor Who mean anything for dimensional tiering?

In this case is just Quantum hax, there are some contexts where it can mean something abstract and others where it merges at dimensional Tiering but generally it is more supporting evidence.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's kind of like asking if food is good. There's thousands of books.

Did you have a series in mind, want some recommendations, etc?

I've been meaning to ask, but how many Torchwood books do ya have? Ya know, for when I get back to it in November when I'm not exhausted 4/7 days a week and recovering 3/7 of the days lol

 

[Quasar002]

So, I was reading the book dead romance and I found an interesting quote from lolita.

The Ships hadn’t needed a point of creation; they were supposed to be above that sort of thing. Minor issues like “linear time” and “causality” weren’t even worth discussing, not in the normal run of things, so why bother retro-creating an entire species simply to justify your own existence?
Ships simply were, and always had been, even before they’d started to think about inventing themselves. As far as Lolita was concerned, the concept of “creation” was just a way of pandering to the pilots.

This puts timeships above things like linear time and causality. And based on lolita opinion, Even the creation concept is just a way to please the pilots.

I think this should grant type 4 Acausality to time ships. Perhaps something more, since they are beyond even the concept of creation.

 

[Udlmaster]

The Ships hadn’t needed a point of creation; they were supposed to be above that sort of thing. Minor issues like “linear time” and “causality” weren’t even worth discussing, not in the normal run of things, so why bother retro-creating an entire species simply to justify your own existence?

If causality is inapplicable, then it's Acausality type 5

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

If causality is inapplicable, then it's Acausality type 5

We need more than just that for type 5 with the new standards

 

[Quasar002]

We need more than just that for type 5 with the new standards

Type 5 has become really complicated, but imagine that at least type 4 fits. Maybe a higher grade of type 4?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Type 5 has become really complicated, but imagine that at least type 4 fits. Maybe a higher grade of type 4?

yeah

 

[Udlmaster]

We need more than just that for type 5 with the new standards

Oh do we? I've honestly not kept up with the new standards, they change so often, I just get them second hand from Ultima

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Oh do we? I've honestly not kept up with the new standards, they change so often, I just get them second hand from Ultima

yeah, is something confused

 

[ByAsura]

Would it be reasonable to scale Bowships and the like above 22nd century Dalek Saucers?

In Alien Bodies, Homunculette derides the Daleks' 22nd century Black Fleet as 'little toy saucers'.

• Everyone stays away from this part of London, apparently. It smells of politics and bad radiation. This city was a major population centre, once. One of the twelve key political sites on the planet, according to the Matrix records. The invaders came here, in their little toy saucers, letting Earth know it was hopelessly outgunned, casually wiping out the odd city by way of demonstration.

Conversely, ancient Gallifreyan vessels like Bowships were genuinely considered an option against the Dalek fleet in Desperate Measures, had been deployed against them in large numbers, and do possess some time travel capability.

I'd say this is somewhat of a stretch, but we're literally talking about a species that transcended 21st century Earth billions of years ago, and were only ever rivalled by the Daleks themselves in terms of technological advancement (the Osirans don't count because they focus more on biological technology).