Doctor Who Discussion Thread

[ByAsura]

I'll explain why I disagree later.

There's also a different non-continuum, counterpart universe called Null-Space (N-Space), which complicates matters because both the Daleks and Time Lords refer to the Void as Null-Space in Gallifrey: Time War.

• BRIGADIER: Yes... Doctor, what is N Space?
  DOCTOR: Well now, the Earth - every world - has a counterpart. They're as close to each other as a pair of clasped hands. In the normal course of events, it's impossible to go there or even to communicate with it because...
• JEREMY: ...Because it's in the fourth dimension!
  DOCTOR: Young man, a lot of nonsense is talked by a lot of people about the fourth dimension - and the fifth and the sixth and the rest, for that matter.
  BRIGADIER: Well, where is it, then?
• DOCTOR: Nowhere. Literally. It's a question you can't ask. There's no "where" for it to be. You see, N Space isn't in this Space-Time Continuum at all. That's how it gets its name. It's short for Null-Space.
• SARAH: And that's why we're not aware of it.
• DOCTOR: Yeah, precisely - because of the discontinuity that you might expect between the two worlds, which forms a very effective barrier. It can normally only be crossed by the dying.

---

• DOCTOR: Yeah, I'll come to that. You see, every sentient being on Earth has an equivalent N Body, coterminous with the ordinary body.

It's actually very similar to the modern Void, with travel between the dimensions forming cracks in space.

• DOCTOR: Yeah, well, the trouble is, with some people the mind is so attached to the things of Earth that they can't give them up. Well, often they can't even take it in that their Earthly lives are over. So, instead of just passing through, they get stuck in N Space. Some of them even try to get back through the barrier; and if they can find the smallest flaw, they'll come back and try to relive their final moments and make them come right.

---

• JEREMY: Look at the light - it's like frozen lightning.
• DOCTOR: You're seeing the cracks through the N Space barrier.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think it was, given it was affecting the Timeline and was drawing in other Doctors to try and help, and the Doctor himself says that the white Holes she's opening up was affecting "All Creation" and that she was "becoming the Void itself"

To be specific, the rift activity was able to reach multiple universes, allowing the 4th Doctor and Romana to enter/exit a universe where the Daleks didn't exist.

The TARDIS itself was explicitly just tossing the universe into the Void. They don't say realities, they say reality, universe and cosmos. Though it wouldn't surprise me if it was more than one universe, given that this mf is on par with Omega, and I suppose some writers do use those terms interchangeably with multiverse.

As for becoming the Void itself, I think that's referring to the fact that they'd become non-space/non-time due to the energy tendrils that were consuming all matter.

Negative space

No idea what this is, aside from a term in Decalog 5, so I'm very interested in hearing about this.

all the side universes

You'll have to be more specific. If you're referring to the anti-matter universe from The Planet of Evil and such, a 4th Doctor story from the same era (which you'll find in the google drive) explains that these are entirely separate continuums.

smaller pocket realities

Again, you'll have to be more specific. For example, the bubble universe from The Doctor's Wife explicitly existed outside of N-Space to the point where they needed a space-time rift to access it.

• DOCTOR: Outside the universe, where we've never, ever been.

---

• RORY: How we can we be outside the universe? The universe is everything.

 

[Udlmaster]

The TARDIS itself was explicitly just tossing the universe into the Void.

Well, one of your scans says;

"When the fabric of the universe is threatened, when the laws of time, space and all of reality start to break down.... on those dire days, different incarnations of the Doctor can meet."

Already, affecting Time is more than what we would just label "The Universe"

Furthermore, the place where the Type 1 is drawing in All Creation is in the Void between realities, so when 11 says "All Creation" and not "The Universe" I'm inclined to believe he means more than just The Universe, especially given the fact it affected the TARDIS which isn't in the Universe and which is also, as you know, is Higher dimensional, with the Matrix being 11-D and its other dimensions randomly changing.

No idea what this is, aside from a term in Decalog 5, so I'm very interested in hearing about this.

I mean E-Space where the Doctor put in negative co-ordinates and it took him there. In Castrovalva it's called a universe and in the actual TV story for it, Full Circle, it's just flat out stated to exist "alongside" N-Space

If you're referring to the anti-matter universe from The Planet of Evil and such, a 4th Doctor story from the same era (which you'll find in the google drive) explains that these are entirely separate continuums.

Nawh, E-Space, I just remember K9 calling it "Negative space"

explains that these are entirely separate continuums.

I remember in Imperial Moon, the Doctor talks about the differences between parallel and alternative universes, with Parallel universes being, in essence, their own timelines, alternative universes where made because of weakness which caused the timeline to split.

Still in the same Timeline/Space-Time Vortex and a part of the Universe, just branched from it.

 

[ByAsura]

Well, one of your scans says;

"When the fabric of the universe is threatened, when the laws of time, space and all of reality start to break down.... on those dire days, different incarnations of the Doctor can meet."

In Night of The Doctor and other stories, they use 'all of reality' in the same context as universe.

Reality is often synonymous with universe, like the cracks in the universe being referred to as a split in 'the skin of reality'. The Quantum Archangel is by far the best example of reality being used interchangeably for the omniverse and universe.

All this proves is that space, time and reality itself on all scales are different.

Like I said, I don't outright disagree with your interpretation, though, I just don't think the evidence points to it.

Already, affecting Time is more than what we would just label "The Universe"

Depends. Time can refer to all timelines, or it can refer to individual space-time continuums. Hell, it can even refer to time tracks (like the pre-time war, time war, and post-time war tracks).

I mean E-Space where the Doctor put in negative co-ordinates and it took him there. In Castrovalva it's called a universe and in the actual TV story for it, Full Circle, it's just flat out stated to exist "alongside" N-Space

Yeah, it's a full on separate space-time continuum (Exo-Space Time Continuum) with galaxies, it's just smaller than N-Space. In the Castrovalva novel, it's implied that E-Space literally orbits N-Space, but it still is a parallel universe.

I remember in Imperial Moon, the Doctor talks about the differences between parallel and alternative universes, with Parallel universes being, in essence, their own timelines, alternative universes where made because of weakness which caused the timeline to split.

The context is that these are realities that didn't diverge properly, causing alternate timelines that outright destroy the original.

• ‘It’s true that alternative universes can exist in parallel with each other, separated only by a millisecond of time and a nanometre of space, without ever having any contact. But there is a danger, at the point of divergence, that one reality will wipe out another instead of splitting from it cleanly. If that happens you probably won’t have been at Brendon where we met, or on Earth at all. Your personal timeline would be rewritten. Possibly for the better... possibly not.’

The Girl Who Waited, Gallifrey 4: Renaissance, The Legacy of Time audios, Blood Heat, No Future, The Quantum Archangel, etc all agree with this account.

Also, parallel and alternate universe are often used interchangeably in Doctor Who.

Still in the same Timeline/Space-Time Vortex and a part of the Universe, just branched from it.

You're correct, but E-Space doesn't fit under that criteria. It didn't branch off N-Space specifically, it's a different continuum with different laws of physics, like inverted space-time coordinates.

The Doctor Who multiverse is a weird place, where parallel universes with different laws of physics are part of the multiverse.

 

[Abscoolguy]

I personally always believed it consumed more than just the universe and did creation (which I went by the TARDIS wiki's description of) and I think Udlmaster makes sense but I can see how that is debatable.

 

[Doxten_]

It's speculation from Spiral Scratch.

• Then he remembered his words to Melanie, his Melanie, about parallel realities. This human Melanie could be from one of those and might he seeing a number of other alternate Melanies or Doctors. Which offered up another, less pleasing possibility. Why was she seeing the multitude rather than him. Of course, the theory of parallel universes, multiverses and even an omniverse was nothing new. Theories had abounded ever since work into the origins of the Lampreys had begun thousands of years ago back home. Of course, it was a chicken-and-egg situation – did the Lampreys exist because of the multiverses or did the multiverses come into existence because the Time Lords accidentally created them whilst meddling with the Lampreys’ unique existence within the spirals of the vortex. This didn’t make it any easier though. Because if this new Melanie was seeing others and he wasn’t, it implied that she was Melanie-Prime if you like. The real Melanie and he and his Melanie were the alternates.

Indeed, it's a bit vague. I would need to search for other sources. But it is already a common ideia and everything seems to agree with that, because when one universe reaches heat death, others will come after, even Chibnall didn't dare to ignore it. So I think it's still reasonable to scale them.

 

[Udlmaster]

Depends. Time can refer to all timelines, or it can refer to individual space-time continuums. Hell, it can even refer to time tracks (like the pre-time war, time war, and post-time war tracks).

What I more so mean is that it's more than say 3-A or High 3-A and more along the lines of Tier 2 was more what I was getting that.

Reality is often synonymous with universe, like the cracks in the universe being referred to as a split in 'the skin of reality'. The Quantum Archangel is by far the best example of reality being used interchangeably for the omniverse and universe.

Well, that's Reality, rather than All Creation.

Reality is often synonymous with universe, like the cracks in the universe being referred to as a split in 'the skin of reality'. The Quantum Archangel is by far the best example of reality being used interchangeably for the omniverse and universe.

I think it depends on the framing given, QA was a much larger framing device (QA is actually why I just checked on the thread again, see below), likewise here, we're already in between realities and the TARDIS is drawing in all creation from the outside, which is why I believe that it's referring to Universes rather than just The Universe.

Also, parallel and alternate universe are often used interchangeably in Doctor Who.

I imagine so, but in the books I'm referencing, the Doctor flat out says they're different

You're correct, but E-Space doesn't fit under that criteria. It didn't branch off N-Space specifically, it's a different continuum with different laws of physics, like inverted space-time coordinates.

Well, it seems to be directly connected to N-Space in some way, given the Doctor travelled to E-Space by putting in negative coordinates (which is actually a really cool idea)

----

Anyway, the reason I'm here.

So I was rewatching New Who and had an idea (I'm not so much referring to it being real, just an idea I wanted to share) in that the Skasis Paradigm could be the Lux Aeterna since they seem to be very similar, even with the similar bits about using computation (For Aeterna, the Mad Mind and for the Paradigm child minds) and both of them giving the user the power of a god.

 

[ByAsura]

Well, that's Reality, rather than All Creation.

Maybe, but maybe not.

DOCTOR: You are my enemy! And I am yours! You are everything I despise! The worst thing in all creation. I've defeated you time and time again, I've defeated you. I sent you back into the void! I saved the whole of reality from you! I am the Doctor! And you are the Daleks!

DOCTOR: A Time War. The last great Time War. My people fought a race called the Daleks, for the sake of all creation, and they lost. They lost. Everyone lost. They're all gone now.

Well, it seems to be directly connected to N-Space in some way, given the Doctor travelled to E-Space by putting in negative coordinates (which is actually a really cool idea)

*travelled in E-Space by inputting negative coordinates. They travelled to E-Space through a CVE. But, the fact that CVEs don't naturally go to anywhere except between E-Space and N-Space in the show, despite being insanely rare phenomena, probably is proof enough.

This reminds me as well. In a partially true version of real events generated by a Celestis meme mine, The War King unironically offered Compassion a CVS.

• ‘You must be hungry, Ms. Carlton,’ said the War King. ‘What can we get for you?’ An attendant sidled over expectantly. ‘What do you have?’ Yvette asked. The attendant looked over at the War King, and Laura interrupted, telling the attendant: ‘I’m downloading some files into your storage. I’ll flag the ones she’ll enjoy most.’ ‘And what about yourself, Compassion?’ the War King asked. I know we don’t often cater to your tastes, but I’m sure our artificers could whip something up. Schwartzchildren a la Stattenheim, perhaps, or a Charged Vaccuum Souflee?’ Laura just shrugged, like she couldn’t be bothered playing this game. The attendant scuttled off, and Laura turned to the War King.

So I was rewatching New Who and had an idea (I'm not so much referring to it being real, just an idea I wanted to share) in that the Skasis Paradigm could be the Lux Aeterna since they seem to be very similar, even with the similar bits about using computation (For Aeterna, the Mad Mind and for the Paradigm child minds) and both of them giving the user the power of a god.

I've always wondered if it was Quantum Mnemonics, myself, as Steven Moffat and Russell T. Davies are known to take from even the most obscure sources.

It'd explain why the Great Old Ones are so powerful, and it fits with the Ancient Lights from the Pre-Universe possessing immense power through astrology.

The only problems I have with my interpretation is that it's a huge coincidence that the GOO's language just so happened to be the universal base code, since it's just far more powerful Pre-Universe equivalent to Block Transfer Computation.

 

[Udlmaster]

DOCTOR: You are my enemy! And I am yours! You are everything I despise! The worst thing in all creation. I've defeated you time and time again, I've defeated you. I sent you back into the void! I saved the whole of reality from you! I am the Doctor! And you are the Daleks!

DOCTOR: A Time War. The last great Time War. My people fought a race called the Daleks, for the sake of all creation, and they lost. They lost. Everyone lost. They're all gone now.

Yeah, but in both cases, the Daleks are considered the worst things in all the multiverse and we know for a fact that the Daleks are a threat to things beyond the Multiverse, "I save the whole of reality from you!". The Doctor is saying this to the first Daleks he meets since Journey's End, where the Reality Bomb was going to literally destroy all other universes.

"Reality" is also often used for everything including beyond the Universe, such as:

DOCTOR: Rose, you've been in a parallel world. That world's running ahead of this universe. You've seen the future. What was it?
ROSE: It's the darkness.
DONNA: The stars were going out.
ROSE: One by one. We looked up at the sky and they were just dying. Basically, we've been building this, er, this travel machine, this, this er, dimension cannon, so I could. Well, so I could
DOCTOR: What?
ROSE: So I could come back. Shut up. Anyway, suddenly, it started to work and the dimensions started to collapse. Not just in our world, not just in yours, but the whole of reality. Even the Void was dead. Something is destroying everything.

DAVROS: Electrical energy, Miss Tyler. Every atom in existence is bound by an electrical field. The Reality bomb cancels it out. Structure falls apart. That test was focused on the prisoners alone. Full transmission will dissolve every form of matter.
ROSE: The stars are going out.
DOCTOR: The twenty seven planets. They become one vast transmitter, blasting that wavelength.
DAVROS: Across the entire universe. Never stopping, never faltering, never fading. People and planets and stars will become dust, and the dust will become atoms, and the atoms will become nothing. And the wavelength will continue, breaking through the Rift at the heart of the Medusa Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of creation. This is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of reality itself!

So I'm not really convinced.

*travelled in E-Space by inputting negative coordinates. They travelled to E-Space through a CVE. But, the fact that CVEs don't naturally go to anywhere except between E-Space and N-Space in the show, despite being insanely rare phenomena, probably is proof enough.

Mind me. It's been ages since I'd watched Full Circle.

And as far as I'm aware, CVEs are something the TARDIS uses by using BTC, I remember something about it in Logopolis.

But more so, what I mean is that, if N-Space is positive coordinates, then Exo Space must be intrinsically connected despite existing in different Space and Times.

I've always wondered if it was Quantum Mnemonics, myself, as Steven Moffat and Russell T. Davies are known to take from even the most obscure sources.

It'd explain why the Great Old Ones are so powerful, and it fits with the Ancient Lights from the Pre-Universe possessing immense power through astrology.

The only problems I have with my interpretation is that it's a huge coincidence that the GOO's language just so happened to be the universal base code, since it's just far more powerful Pre-Universe equivalent to Block Transfer Computation.

I don't think it is, because I think we seen the Language of the Great Old Ones with the Satan Pit, at least that what it seems to be, given that no one could translate it except for the Beast himself.

It is funny how there's so much overlap between the deeper functions of the DW universe that it becomes possible to just meld all of them together and say "Different species just gave different names to the same thing"

 

[ByAsura]

The Reality Bomb would've extended to the Void, as well. So, I think this supports my claim that when someone says 'all reality', it's a relative thing, but I could go either way at this point and don't see much point in continuing.

TARDISes can make them under very special circumstances (otherwise exiting and entering E-Space wouldn't be much trouble for a TARDIS), but CVEs are usually natural or created by larger-scale BTC, like what the Logopolitans use to transfer entropy into E-Space. The Time Lords can also make huge CVEs.

 

[ByAsura]

Does anyone have anything on TARDISes being physically indestructible?

 

[Udlmaster]

Does anyone have anything on TARDISes being physically indestructible?

ROSE: It's going to follow us!
DOCTOR: The assembled hordes of Genghis Khan couldn't get through that door, and believe me, they've tried. Now, shut up a minute.

JACK: We've got incoming!
(The Dalek missiles strike the Tardis, and there is a big fireball in the vacuum of space. Neat trick.)
JACK: The extrapolator's working. We've got a fully functional forcefield. Try saying that when you're drunk.

DALEKS: Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!
(The Dalek rays are stopped by a forcefield extending a good three metres out from the Tardis.)
DOCTOR: Is that it? Useless! Nul points. It's all right, come on out. That forcefield can hold back anything.
JACK: Almost anything.
DOCTOR: Yes, but I wasn't going to tell them that. Thanks.

DOCTOR: Oops, sorry. Tardis force field is still here. We get in, you don't.
DALEK SUPREME: The Tardis has been destroyed.
DOCTOR: Ah, don't be silly, of course it hasn't. It just redistributed itself for a moment. Hostile Action Dispersal System. I'll give it a quick blast from my sonic, and the real time envelope will reassemble right here.
CLARA: Doctor, you don't have your screwdriver.
DOCTOR: Oh, yeah, I'm over screwdrivers. They spoil the line of your jacket. These days, I'm all about wearable technology.
(He puts on his sunglasses.)
CLARA: No! No? Seriously?
(The Doctor twitches the glasses and -)
DALEK SUPREME: What is happening?
DOCTOR: Oh, same old, same old. Just the Doctor and Clara Oswald in the Tardis.
(The Tardis reforms around the Doctor and Clara, then dematerialises.)

DOCTOR 2: Well, as you know, it accidentally fell into the force field of the Tardis, so that when we were all transformed into antimatter, that was the only thing that wasn't processed.
DOCTOR: And when Omega knocked it out of our hands and it fell out of the force field, all the atoms and the anti-atoms annihilated one another.
TYLER: So, big bang, and the black hole becomes a supernova!

This one was them using a Portable TARDIS force field.

I'm 100% sure there's a ton more instances where the Doctor says that the TARDIS is indestructable, thought he might be referring to its ability to always regenerate in some way including stuff like paradoxes.

Like when the TARDIS was erased conceptually by the Conceptual Bomb and it came back when the Doctor caused a paradox to prevent the bomb from going off (in essence, restoring itself regardless of the fact that it causes a paradox)

The Ship rebuilt itself in Crystal Bucephalus. It came back after being scattered cross time in Paper Cuts, when the Time Scaphe crashed into it, it regenerated into the SARDIT (Space and Relative Dimension in Time), it was able to cause a time loop of its down detonation to keep surviving during the Pandorica Opens.

After the Reapers turned it into a real Policebox (or ejected the TARDIS, either or) the TARDIS was able to come back with a little energy.

In Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS, the TARDIS was apparently just able to selectively choose not to blow up and kept itself from doing so, allowing the Doctor to fix the issue. This also caused a paradox.

 

[ByAsura]

I more mean stuff like this.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I more mean stuff like this.

The closest thing I know of are durability feats rather than statements such as being indestructible due this.

 

[Abscoolguy]

I more mean stuff like this.

Maybe the quote of the quantum archangel being said to be omnipotent and omniscient and the TARDIS holding it back.

 

[Quasar002]

I've been reading some faction paradox books and came across something interesting.

"There are beings we can very well consider gods, and their conflicts are not fought with cannons and warships, but with ideas. And a strong enough idea can reshape reality. The beings we are talking about are not people in any way we would use the term. They are much more than that. They can be called living ideas, and wherever and whenever they go, they reshape the reality around them. The very currents of history are shaped by their whims, and a mere thought of them can make a civilization rise or fall. One can think of them as imprints on the reality of the eternal forms about which your Earth philosopher, Plato, wrote so eloquently. They are eternal and exist at all times and places at their own will."


"But how can Platonic forms be at war, Holmes? They are eternal and immutable - that's what it means to be one. A triangle cannot go to war with the concept of justice! Ah, but it can. And, in fact, that's precisely what is happening."

"A book so persuasive that it could affect a man's mind so profoundly that reality itself would shift to conform to it."

"Books are the bridge between the imaginary and the real, between the conceptual realm where Platonic Forms exist and our own imperfect reality. If these gods the Martian ambassador speaks of can take mortal form, how much easier for one of them to become paper and ink? My assertion is that this book of which I speak is, in fact, a conscious being of great power and cunning, with an intelligence far superior to mine. It is a being of pure idea, reshaping the world in its own image. Every trace of romanticism is slowly being eradicated from the world, replaced by a world that adheres to mathematical rules, much like those Professor Moriarty discovered. It is a world devoid of the strange and unusual, the romantic or the grotesque, a world stripped of mysteries and wonders."

That's all right in the enemy's book. However, I think this leaves room for more than one interpretation. Would the enemy and the time lords/great houses be platonic beings that take on physical form? Or is this part of the conceptual entities that they are able to create or have some control over? Perhaps there are other interpretations. Could anyone who has read the book share their interpretation of it?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

That's all right in the enemy's book. However, I think this leaves room for more than one interpretation. Would the enemy and the time lords/great houses be platonic beings that take on physical form? Or is this part of the conceptual entities that they are able to create or have some control over? Perhaps there are other interpretations. Could anyone who has read the book share their interpretation of it?

I have not read yet, but i think is more the Conceptual entites that both Sides have, or in the Best, the Enemy is one of these Conceptual Thing

 

[Quasar002]

I have not read yet, but i think is more the Conceptual entites that both Sides have, or in the Best, the Enemy is one of these Conceptual Thing

This is the interpretation that I think makes the most sense. In the case of being the conceptual entities that the great houses/enemy have control over.

 

[ByAsura]

I've been reading some faction paradox books and came across something interesting.

Which book is this from specifically?

 

[Quasar002]

Which book is this from specifically?

Book of the Enemy.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll look into it, then, since I have that book.

 

[ByAsura]

Book of the Enemy.

I've looked into it.

I think if you take the book by itself, it wouldn't be an inaccurate interpretation. However, I've seen almost every piece of Faction Paradox media out there, and, in my opinion, I think it refers to the interaction with the lesser species.

Gallifrey and The Enemy manipulate the universe on a metaphysical level, ensuring at some point that every culture would (in some form of another) be on the side of The Enemy or Gallifrey. In effect, all wars across the universe are a 'reflection' of the larger War in Heaven.

This makes sense to me because they're referring to an Enemy weapon.

• The modern mathematics does, indeed, sound like nonsense, and many menwhen confronted with the facts simply refuse to acknowledge them. But theyremain the facts. And once one has read Moriarty’s On the Dynamics of theAsteroid, one knows the truth – we are living in the world described inMoriarty’s book, not Euclid’s.’
• ‘On the contrary, it makes a great deal of sense. Books are the link between the imaginary and the real, between the conceptual realm in which the Platonic forms exist and our own imperfect reality. If these gods of which the Martian ambassador speak can take on mortal flesh, how much easier for one to become bound paper and ink? It is my contention that this book of which I speak is, in fact, a sentient being of great power and deviousness, with an intelligence far out stripping my own. It is a being of pure idea, which is remaking the world in its own image. Every trace of romance is slowly being leached from the world, as it creates in its stead a world which runs on mathematical rules, like those Professor Moriarty discovered. It is a world without the strange and uncanny, without the romantic or the grotesque, a world devoid of mysteries and wonders. That is, ultimately, what this Enemy wishes to create – a world in which we live and die, reproduce, eat, and excrete, but in which the Pyramids are no longer the creation of ancient alien civilisations but merely the tombs of long-dead inbred dictators, in which there are no canals on Mars and no wizards, a world in which none of our actions matter.’

 

[Udlmaster]

That's all right in the enemy's book. However, I think this leaves room for more than one interpretation. Would the enemy and the time lords/great houses be platonic beings that take on physical form? Or is this part of the conceptual entities that they are able to create or have some control over? Perhaps there are other interpretations. Could anyone who has read the book share their interpretation of it?

I have to imagine it refers to Time, Pain, Death and other Menti Celesti who are themselves dreams and ideas:

"Death glared at him. 'I'm the sister of Time and Pain and several more. We're the dreams of Time Lords. We leak out across the universe, and occasionally somebody like the Timewyrm gives us form. Certain Time Lords, in their nightmares, or in states like you're in, make sordid little deals with us. We might even take them on as our Champions. We make them pay a price.'"

 

[Abscoolguy]

on a metaphysical level

I've never seen an agreed scaling for metaphysics. Where is it tiered on here? (I've deadass seen people say it's beyond tiering LOL, I assume it's not)

 

[Udlmaster]

To my understanding, given that DW has Set theory and Platonism, then it seems that interacting with them would be 1-A+

Talking to Ultima too, Platonism is 1-A as long as there is some indicated that "the Platonic Form of "Dimension" encompasses all generalizations of dimension."

 

[Quasar002]

To my understanding, given that DW has Set theory and Platonism, then it seems that interacting with them would be 1-A+

Talking to Ultima too, Platonism is 1-A as long as there is some indicated that "the Platonic Form of "Dimension" encompasses all generalizations of dimension."

How do dimensions that are separate from spatial and temporal dimensions fit into the system? There is a comic in which the doctor says that the universe does not exist in just spatial and temporal dimensions, there is also a psychosphere for each planet with life. In the book Brakespeare Voyage it is also mentioned that everything has a dimension of meaning (biodata I think).

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

How do dimensions that are separate from spatial and temporal dimensions fit into the system? There is a comic in which the doctor says that the universe does not exist in just spatial and temporal dimensions, there is also a psychosphere for each planet with life. In the book Brakespeare Voyage it is also mentioned that everything has a dimension of meaning (biodata I think).

I like to divide Doctor who universe into the following way
Planes of Existence: the Six fold Realm, Time Vortex, etc
Layers of existence: The material world (Aka Regular universe), psychosphere, The astral realm, conceptual plane and the meta-structure/Web of time
Dimensions of Existance: Normal alternative dimensions, pocket dimensions and higher dimensions

 

[Quasar002]

I like to divide Doctor who universe into the following way
Planes of Existence: the Six fold Realm, Time Vortex, etc
Layers of existence: The material world (Aka Regular universe), psychosphere, The astral realm, conceptual plane and the meta-structure/Web of time
Dimensions of Existance: Normal alternative dimensions, pocket dimensions and higher dimensions

I think there are some stories that mention the time vortex being non-spatial. Although I don't know if this grants anything within the wiki. And I found your classification interesting, I also share the same view. These more metaphysical planes (conceptual realms of the celestis, psychosphere, etc.) seem to exist outside of mundane dimensions (the spatial and temporal dimensions) Although I don't know what that would be here on the wiki. Could it be some kind of beyond-dimensional existence? Or am I mistaken?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I think there are some stories that mention the time vortex being non-spatial. Although I don't know if this grants anything within the wiki. And I found your classification interesting, I also share the same view. These more metaphysical planes (conceptual realms of the celestis, psychosphere, etc.) seem to exist outside of mundane dimensions (the spatial and temporal dimensions) Although I don't know what that would be here on the wiki. Could it be some kind of beyond-dimensional existence? Or am I mistaken?

i only think that the Void/Ur-Space is the only plane with beyond-dimensional existence

 

[Quasar002]

i only think that the Void/Ur-Space is the only plane with beyond-dimensional existence

Did the conceptual realms fit into something? As for the void, I imagine that it would have non-existent physiology of some types. Although I don't know if there are weapons capable of affecting the void. I just remember a type 1 tardis that was becoming the void itself. There is also the Brakespeare ship that can travel in the void. And the reality bomb I think was affecting the void too, although I have a rather vague memory about that.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Did the conceptual realms fit into something?

mnnnn, i dont think

As for the void, I imagine that it would have non-existent physiology of some types. Although I don't know if there are weapons capable of affecting the void. I just remember a type 1 tardis that was becoming the void itself. There is also the Brakespeare ship that can travel in the void. And the reality bomb I think was affecting the void too, although I have a rather vague memory about that.

Time Lords can control the void but is very limted, since they can open/close cracks to the void as we see in The Time of the Doctor

 

[ByAsura]

To my understanding, given that DW has Set theory and Platonism, then it seems that interacting with them would be 1-A+

Talking to Ultima too, Platonism is 1-A as long as there is some indicated that "the Platonic Form of "Dimension" encompasses all generalizations of dimension."

There's some differences between the story and how platonism is framed now, but I think that might benefit us.

Also, if we had that, I'm sure we could go even higher than 1-A and even 1-A+ given the things I've heard about Type IV multiverses.

 

[Udlmaster]

How do dimensions that are separate from spatial and temporal dimensions fit into the system? There is a comic in which the doctor says that the universe does not exist in just spatial and temporal dimensions, there is also a psychosphere for each planet with life. In the book Brakespeare Voyage it is also mentioned that everything has a dimension of meaning (biodata I think).

In essence, you have the Physical universe, N-Space, which is directly connected to these conceptual planes through their transcendental links.

The higher planes don't really interact with them or just <are> them, for example, the Menti Celesti are Eternals who are themselves just the Dreams of Old Gallifreyans. The Chronovores where described as the Doctor as physical incarnations of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

As such, once you reach the Six-Fold Realms, you are in the territory of the Conceptual. This is another reason why I interpret the 11 Dimensions from things like Quantum Archangel to not really be referring to the Mathematical version but more so planes.

Things like when the Time Vortex and N-Space interacting with each other causes Mathematics and Science to cease to work and so on make me think that and a whole host of other things (including stuff that has N-Space containing a load more than just 11 dimensions anyway, let alone the Six-Fold Realm)

 

[ByAsura]

Time Vortex and N-Space interacting with each other causes Mathematics and Science to cease to work

I've been looking through quite a lot of sources for this kind of stuff, particularly when it comes to the Vortex butterflies.

Do you mind linking all of your findings in the private convo we have?

 

[Doxten_]

In essence, you have the Physical universe, N-Space, which is directly connected to these conceptual planes through their transcendental links.

The higher planes don't really interact with them or just <are> them, for example, the Menti Celesti are Eternals who are themselves just the Dreams of Old Gallifreyans. The Chronovores where described as the Doctor as physical incarnations of the Laws of Thermodynamics.

As such, once you reach the Six-Fold Realms, you are in the territory of the Conceptual. This is another reason why I interpret the 11 Dimensions from things like Quantum Archangel to not really be referring to the Mathematical version but more so planes.

Things like when the Time Vortex and N-Space interacting with each other causes Mathematics and Science to cease to work and so on make me think that and a whole host of other things (including stuff that has N-Space containing a load more than just 11 dimensions anyway, let alone the Six-Fold Realm)

This would make Doctor Who be insanely above baseline into Tier 0.

 

[Udlmaster]

I've been looking through quite a lot of sources for this kind of stuff, particularly when it comes to the Vortex butterflies.

Do you mind linking all of your findings in the private convo we have?

Ye sure

 

[Udlmaster]

This would make Doctor Who be insanely above baseline into Tier 0.

It wouldn't.

Not as things stand. As far as I see Doctor Who right now, it's 1-A+ at its peak.

 

[Doxten_]

It wouldn't.

Not as things stand. As far as I see Doctor Who right now, it's 1-A+ at its peak.

Why not? If the Calabi-Yau Space is a plane of existence that trancends the Time-Vortex which contains Set and Quantum Theories, then the Greater Time-Vortex would be greater than that, since its brane cosmology would contain infinite of these levels of existence due to the various laws of physics. Even if you're not considering the Six-Fold Realm as transcendent to Set Theory anymore, it would still be High 1-A. Unless you're not considering the brane cosmology as argument, then you should need to change all of your revision and not use the argument of planes anymore.

 

[Udlmaster]

Why not? If the Calabi-Yau Space is a plane of existence that trancends the Time-Vortex which contains Set and Quantum Theories, then the Greater Time-Vortex would be greater than that, since its brane cosmology would contain infinite of these levels of existence due to the various laws of physics. Even if you're not considering the Six-Fold Realm as transcendent to Set Theory anymore, it would still be High 1-A. Unless you're not considering the brane cosmology as argument, then you should need to change all of your revision and not use the argument of planes anymore.

Nah, at the moment, we consider containing all of Set theory to be 1-A+, you'd need an infinite hierarchy to reach High 1-A and a Brane cosmology would reach High 1-B rather than High 1-A.

I've not been able to find any Infinite hierarchy as of yet, I used to think the Spiral Scratch Time Vortex was one, but not anymore.

 

[Doxten_]

Nah, at the moment, we consider containing all of Set theory to be 1-A+, you'd need an infinite hierarchy to reach High 1-A and a Brane cosmology would reach High 1-B rather than High 1-A.

I've not been able to find any Infinite hierarchy as of yet, I used to think the Spiral Scratch Time Vortex was one, but not anymore.

‘And would those parallel worlds have eleven dimensions, too?’
‘If they’re in a universe where the same physical laws apply, then yes, and
they’d have their own parallel Sidhe as well.’ - Autunm Mist

Then why are you considering just the Six-Fold Realm as planes, but not the rest? It's constituent of those Branes. It's necessary to use various sources as a complement of one another.