DMC Ability Removals [Part 1]

[Deagonx]

Hello. The Demon Physiology page for Devil May Cry includes a lot of rather strange abilities. I'll be going through this page and others in the verse over a period of time to remove the ones that are not appropriately justified. This is for the "Lower Tier Demons" section.

Abilities​

Supernatural Willpower: Demons are capable of using the powers of the Beastheads, and it is confirmed that you need a strong will and mind to be able to do so and also to not get possessed by it[22]

Humans need a strong will to do that, but Beastheads are designed to absorb humans and replenish demons.

Immersion: Demons can enter inside mirrors[25].

This is just a portal that looks like a mirror. Immersion is defined as "crossing the boundary between reality and fiction." Mirror portals have nothing to do with that.

Corruption (Type 1): (Implanting demonic powers in someone to gain powers beyond what ordinary people are capable of, requires that the person in question has a strong mind and body to not become a mindless beast in the process[43])

This is a special ritual the Order of the Sword conducts to imbue themselves with Demonic Power. There's no evidence that the average demon can just do that to other people, which is what its presence on the "Low Tier Demon Physiology" section would imply.

Clairvoyance and Causality Manipulation: Demons can perceive events beyond their physical reach and also influence them if they must, either by manifesting themselves at that event or bringing said event to themselves.

Causality Manip doesn't seem to make any sense here. Ducas is a was a low level street thug who gets ahold of a demonic artifact called the Beastheads, then later Chen intercepts him running from Dante, and plops him on a yacht and abandons him. Then:

"We've lost contact with the yacht, sir. Something to do with the weather."
Chen nodded slowly at the report. "I was expecting something like this. Young Mister Ducas is in possession of an item said to have been crafted by the King of the Underworld himself. Supernatural happenings are to be expected in these circumstances. I suspect our friend is enduring a moment of utter despair. There's a little better for enabling the truth to flow freely."

Chen eased himself off a voluminous leather sofa and crossed to a large window. Ducas' yacht appeared to be floating just outside, swallowed up and spat back out by black clouds.
"The techniques of the demon realm are truly remarkable," Chen said, more to himself than anyone else. "Faraway oceans and distant events can be brought to us as if we could reach out and pluck Mister Ducas from my ship. And these are just the powers of the lesser demons. Imagine what we might achieve with the abilities of a higher devil, or the Beastheads itself."

All this really seems to indicate is that Chen has a window in his estate that allows him to view whats going on far away from him. This isn't Causality Manipulation in any sense of the word. What's going on in the "faraway oceans" is happening in real time, and there's no indication that Chen can influence it. Definitely remove.

Resistances​

Pain Manipulation: Demons are capable of withstanding every modern weapon being thrown at them and getting up like nothing happened to them[64].

This is an immensely stupid way to justify "resistance to pain manipulation."

Physics Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of physics are different from the Human World.[38]

Why would this be "resistance to physics manipulation?"

Gravity Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of gravity are different from the Human World.[25]

Why would this be "resistance to gravity manipulation?"

Death Manipulation: Demons are unaffected by the Beasthead's mere presence, which is capable of robbing the life from everything in its surroundings, including sounds, waves and wind, as well as living creatures[39]

Ducas had the Beastheads for days and neither he nor anyone around him simply died on the spot or something.

Tally​

Agree: (3) Deagonx, Armorchompy, Catzlaflame, Tllmbrg
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I agree with all of these

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[FentyBeauty]

agreed

 

[Bobsican]

Agree

 

[Armorchompy]

This is just a portal that looks like a mirror. Immersion is defined as "crossing the boundary between reality and fiction." Mirror portals have nothing to do with that.

I actually think it's fine to use Immersion for entering normal mirrors, while it's not "fiction" it is a place that doesn't really exist, and entering it is fairly notable in that regard.

... However this is clearly just a portal.

Ducas had the Beastheads for days and neither he nor anyone around him simply died on the spot or something.

This is a bit odd in that the statement that they do affect what is around them is fairly clear, but them not affecting people who do hang around them is too. I'm not sure, frankly, I'd consider the thing to at least have some minor form of hax, beyond that I dunno.

Everything else is fine.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Now arguing hax and abilities isn't my thing specifically but i wanna point out something here:

Humans need a strong will to do that, but Beastheads are designed to absorb humans and replenish demons.

Yes and...? That doesn't deny that Humans need exceptionally strong willpower to wield the Beastheads in his statue state rather then his Demonic form. Its stated right there so idk what are you trying to prove here with this.

This is a special ritual the Order of the Sword conducts to imbue themselves with Demonic Power. There's no evidence that the average demon can just do that to other people, which is what its presence on the "Low Tier Demon Physiology" section would imply.

Well if this doesn't satisfy you then we also have:

• Humans were corrupted by evil (which is Demonic Energy in this case) and turned into this creature called Msira.
• Evil (Demonic Energy) blatantly stated to corrupts soil and fills the air with an acidic taste.
• A horse from human World becomes corrupted and turned into a Demon by inhaling the miasma of Demon World.
• The surroundings around Dante was corrupted due to being in a timeline where Human World got absorbed by Demon World.

Causality Manip doesn't seem to make any sense here. Ducas is a was a low level street thug who gets ahold of a demonic artifact called the Beastheads, then later Chen intercepts him running from Dante, and plops him on a yacht and abandons him. Then:

All this really seems to indicate is that Chen has a window in his estate that allows him to view whats going on far away from him. This isn't Causality Manipulation in any sense of the word. What's going on in the "faraway oceans" is happening in real time, and there's no indication that Chen can influence it. Definitely remove.

Not sure on this one soo i let others to argue over it.

Resistances​

This is an immensely stupid way to justify "resistance to pain manipulation."

Yeah this needs to be removed. Agree on this one personally.

Why would this be "resistance to physics manipulation?"

I suppose the dude who made this wanna say that Demons naturally exist in a world where laws of physics are abnormal without any issue.

Why would this be "resistance to gravity manipulation?"

Same reason as above i suppose. One more thing to note here is that Demons do not follows the laws of the world whatsoever which would include laws of both gravity and physics so take that however you want.

Ducas had the Beastheads for days and neither he nor anyone around him simply died on the spot or something.

I believe the difference here is that the BH was in his Demonic state where he was passively releasing Demonic Energy which caused all that madness whereas Ducas merely possessed the statue version of BH but whatever the case is, we can't deny that life was robbed out of everything around BH so bringing this point feels unnecessary.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything seems logical so far, I agree.

 

[chosen]

3 hax threads open, been a while since i seen that

Anyways not gonna really bothers but if Anyone wonders why thread argumenta aren't in profiles it's cuz profiles are quite outdated as even admited by supporters

 

[Random-Helper323]

Humans need a strong will to do that, but Beastheads are designed to absorb humans and replenish demons.

Wouldn't this line of reasoning also mean Superman shouldn't have heat resistance for flying into the sun because the sun strengthens him, and Hulk shouldn't resist radiation?

Ducas had the Beastheads for days and neither he nor anyone around him simply died on the spot or something.

That was the Beastheads' statue state, The imposition of death on inanimate objects was done by its demon form. That effect also didn't happen until after the transformation, thus meaning its statue form didn't have it. The fact that it affects sounds and waves also doesn't fit with the idea that it selectively targets only humans.

 

[Deagonx]

Wouldn't this line of reasoning also mean Superman shouldn't have heat resistance for flying into the sun because the sun strengthens him, and Hulk shouldn't resist radiation?

Yes and...? That doesn't deny that Humans need exceptionally strong willpower to wield the Beastheads in his statue state rather then his Demonic form. Its stated right there so idk what are you trying to prove here with this.

No. Once Chen and Dante realize the Beastheads eat humans and replenish demons, Chen remarks:

"I should patent this. A process for transforming humans into a basic magical energy."

If the Beastheads just aren't designed to devour demons or transform them into magical energy, they wouldn't need supernatural willpower to resist it. There'd be nothing to resist.

That was the Beastheads' statue state, The imposition of death on inanimate objects was done by its demon form. That effect also didn't happen until after the transformation, thus meaning its statue form didn't have it.

Two problems:
1) Beryl was present for this and didn't die
2) Again, this wouldn't be a resistance feat for all lower tier demons.

Well if this doesn't satisfy you then we also have:

• Humans were corrupted by evil (which is Demonic Energy in this case) and turned into this creature called Msira.
• Evil (Demonic Energy) blatantly stated to corrupts soil and fills the air with an acidic taste.
• A horse from human World becomes corrupted and turned into a Demon by inhaling the miasma of Demon World.
• The surroundings around Dante was corrupted due to being in a timeline where Human World got absorbed by Demon World.

That speaks to an environmental effect of the demon world itself. We would need feats specifically of demons doing it. More importantly, we'd need an indication that this is something pretty much all demons can do for it to be the in "demon physiology page."

One more thing to note here is that Demons do not follows the laws of the world whatsoever which would include laws of both gravity and physics so take that however you want.

I don't see a basis for assuming that statements about the Beastheads, which are considered to be exceptionally powerful, must also apply to all lower-tier demons regardless. This phrase is also pretty vague.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No. Once Chen and Dante realize the Beastheads eat humans and replenish demons, Chen remarks:

"I should patent this. A process for transforming humans into a basic magical energy."

If the Beastheads just aren't designed to devour demons or transform them into magical energy, they wouldn't need supernatural willpower to resist it. There'd be nothing to resist.

Demons in general are considered more superior so we could use them to cross-scale to humans regardless.

Demons and Humans are no different then one another in terms of physiology. Its just Beastheads are designed specifically for this purpose. Why should he generate Demonic Energy from his own kind? On the plus side, Humans are treated as a boost for Demon Kind soo i say it was more necessary to squeeze every bit from them through Beastheads.

Also I don't need to go in detail further as Gilver explained everything in detail here soo lets move on.

Two problems:
1) Beryl was present for this and didn't die

Beryl is specifically stated to be able to survive Demon's affects more than a regular human so she isn't a issue

2) Again, this wouldn't be a resistance feat for all lower tier demons.

How so? It was stated very clearly that Demons resist abilities of Beastheads in general so you clearly have no basis to assume this here.

That speaks to an environmental effect of the demon world itself. We would need feats specifically of demons doing it. More importantly, we'd need an indication that this is something pretty much all demons can do for it to be the in "demon physiology page."

Demon World uses the same energy as any Demon uses. A feat from Demon World is the same for every every Demon especially knowing they literally breath within it and immune to its effects in general.

I don't see a basis for assuming that statements about the Beastheads, which are considered to be exceptionally powerful, must also apply to all lower-tier demons regardless. This phrase is also pretty vague.

Lets take a look:

As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted?

Beings in this scenerio should be talking about Demons in general as they are not the product of Human World and are no different then "aliens".

Beastheads alone is just a whole different beast which caused a world wide chaos due to his capabilities specifically so it all makes sense.

 

[Deagonx]

Demons in general are considered more superior so we could use them to cross-scale to humans regardless.

No, we would need an indication that (A) The Beastheads are actively trying to devour demons and (B) The reason that the Beastheads fail is that they have extraordinary will. We dont have enough information to reach that conclusion, it seems more likely that the Beastheads just arent targetting demons.

Beryl is specifically stated to be able to survive Demon's affects more than a regular human so she isn't a issue

Unless we have indications that all living things are supposed to just be dropping dead, we can't give all demons "resistance to death manip" because of the description in that link, given it's very oddly worded and no living thing actually dies in that sequence.

How so? It was stated very clearly that Demons resist abilities of Beastheads in general so you clearly have no basis to assume this here.

This proves my point.

"Why didn't the Beastheads try to assimilate Mundus? Were they capable of resisting its power?"
"Chen looked back at the document he had just read. 'The demon form is generally immune to the power of the beastheads.'"

Later, Chen figures out why.

It targets humans and not demons. He asked himself why the Beastheads didn't try to assimilate Mundus. They aren't designed to have that effect on demons. The fact that they are designed to absorb humans and that therefore humans need a strong will to resist it does not mean that all demons are resisting it due to their extraordinary willpower. We'd need better, more direct evidence of all of them having supernatural willpower to give them this ability.

Demon World uses the same energy as any Demon uses. A feat from Demon World is the same for every every Demon especially knowing they literally breath within it and immune to its effects in general.

You must provide actual proof that demons can do this. The demon world doing it is not sufficient.

Beings in this scenerio should be talking about Demons in general as they are not the product of Human World and are no different then "aliens".

Beastheads' alone is just a whole different beast which caused a world wide chaos due to his capabilities specifically so it all makes sense.

Without further clarification, this isn't sufficient evidence for "resistance to physics manipulation." It doesn't tell us what kind of laws aren't being followed (clearly demons actually do follow the laws of gravity most of the time) and as you point out, the Beastheads was causing a world-wide cataclysm which doesn't happen when your average demon goes to the Human World.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No, we would need an indication that (A) The Beastheads are actively trying to devour demons and (B) The reason that the Beastheads fail is that they have extraordinary will. We dont have enough information to reach that conclusion, it seems more likely that the Beastheads just arent targetting demons.

Unless we have indications that all living things are supposed to just be dropping dead, we can't give all demons "resistance to death manip" because of the description in that link, given it's very oddly worded and no living thing actually dies in that sequence.

This proves my point.

"Why didn't the Beastheads try to assimilate Mundus? Were they capable of resisting its power?"
"Chen looked back at the document he had just read. 'The demon form is generally immune to the power of the beastheads.'"

Later, Chen figures out why.

It targets humans and not demons. He asked himself why the Beastheads didn't try to assimilate Mundus. They aren't designed to have that effect on demons. The fact that they are designed to absorb humans and that therefore humans need a strong will to resist it does not mean that all demons are resisting it due to their extraordinary willpower. We'd need better, more direct evidence of all of them having supernatural willpower to give them this ability.

Ahh so this is where your problem comes in general.

Alright lets clear your "this proves my point" stuff first.

You looked into every part of the scan but missed one stuff here:

"The demon form is generally immune to the power of Beastheads."

And thus you have your answer... Demons are generally immune to Beastheads' sheningans which is exactly why he couldn't assimilate them.

As for this:

Its just another reason why he doesn't target Demons which is due to Beastheads specifically focusing on Humans and use them to power Demons instead on top of Demons having immunity to Beastheads' assimilation process.

Soo all you end up doing is supporting my evidence even further lol.

You must provide actual proof that demons can do this. The demon world doing it is not sufficient.

That's dumb. Demons literally exists in the Demon World, its their birth place and the environment of Demon World should amplify them instead given Demonic Energy is negativity which Demons in general feeds up on.

Without further clarification, this isn't sufficient evidence for "resistance to physics manipulation." It doesn't tell us what kind of laws aren't being followed (clearly demons actually do follow the laws of gravity most of the time) and as you point out, the Beastheads was causing a world-wide cataclysm which doesn't happen when your average demon goes to the Human World.

They follow the laws of Demon World which in general are more ****** up in comparison to the normal laws of Human World. The fact that they do not specifically follows laws of another world (not being succumbed to it) only means they have a form of immunity or resistance to it.

 

[Deagonx]

You looked into every part of the scan but missed one stuff here:

I didn't miss it, I quoted it in the comment you are responding to. My stance remains unchanged, we know that the Beastheads do not work on Demons. There is no evidence that this is due to supernatural willpower instead of it just not being compatible with them, since it was designed to transform humans into energy. This is not a sufficient basis for "Supernatural Willpower." Its far too speculative and contradicts what the source material is actually saying about why demons are unaffected.

That's dumb. Demons literally exists in the Demon World, its their birth place and the environment of Demon World should amplify them instead given Demonic Energy is negativity which Demons in general feeds up on.

I live in the universe, which has gravity. Do I have gravity manip? Do I have radiation manip because there's radiation in the world?

The fact that the Demon World corrupts does not mean every individual demon has the power to corrupt others, which is what would be required to give them all the "Corruption" ability universally.

They follow the laws of Demon World which in general are more ****** up in comparison to the normal laws of Human World. The fact that they do not specifically follows laws of another world (not being succumbed to it) only means they have a form of immunity or resistance to it.

That doesn't demonstrate resistance to Law Manip. The exact meaning of "not following laws" is ambiguous and it's unclear if its just the Beastheads. Further, given that demons clearly follow the laws of physics in the human world, the interpretation you're proposing just doesn't work. This is not sufficient evidence for resistance to Law Manip.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I didn't miss it, I quoted it in the comment you are responding to. My stance remains unchanged, we know that the Beastheads do not work on Demons. There is no evidence that this is due to supernatural willpower instead of it just not being compatible with them, since it was designed to transform humans into energy. This is not a sufficient basis for "Supernatural Willpower." Its far too speculative and contradicts what the source material is actually saying about why demons are unaffected.

It's not about willpower so much as resistances.

I live in the universe, which has gravity. Do I have gravity manip? Do I have radiation manip because there's radiation in the world?

No, but you live on Earth, and have natural resistances to many diseases that you aren't aware of. Most humans are immune to glandular fever, for example, after getting it once. I know, I got it as transmitted disease, and have been immune to it since. You also technically have many of those diseases dormant in you. You are resistant to them, so they have minimal or no effect. I wouldn't want to be an alien being breathing in your skin cells though...

That doesn't demonstrate resistance to Law Manip. The exact meaning of "not following laws" is ambiguous and it's unclear if its just the Beastheads. Further, given that demons clearly follow the laws of physics in the human world, the interpretation you're proposing just doesn't work. This is not sufficient evidence for resistance to Law Manip.

Don't know about gravity, but demons definitely are weird with time and cause.

 

[Deagonx]

It's not about willpower so much as resistances.

This is for removing the Supernatural Willpower entry.

No, but you live on Earth, and have natural resistances to many diseases that you aren't aware of. Most humans are immune to glandular fever, for example, after getting it once. I know, I got it as transmitted disease, and have been immune to it since. You also technically have many of those diseases dormant in you. You are resistant to them, so they have minimal or no effect.

This isn't the reasoning that he is using. This isn't about demons having "Resistance to Corruption." This is about demons having the Corruption power themselves on the basis that the DW corrupts things.

Don't know about gravity, but demons definitely are weird with time and cause.

This is for removing "Resistance to Gravity Manipulation" and "Resistance to Physics Manipulation." Not Acausality or Resistance to Time Manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

Slight correction, I got confused somewhere along the line I think due to the Beastheads scan. Resistance to Law Manip isn't being discussed here, it's Resistance to Physics Manip and Gravity Manip.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This is for removing the Supernatural Willpower entry.

Hmm... Well Dante definitely has it, even back in the novel. It's possible the demons that lack two brain cells to rub together might not have it.

This isn't the reasoning that he is using. This isn't about demons having "Resistance to Corruption." This is about demons having the Corruption power themselves on the basis that the DW corrupts things.

I figured it was both. Technically they still carry the same energy though. Demon energy for both. Same energy, same matter. Humans also consistently get messed up from demon power.

This is for removing "Resistance to Gravity Manipulation" and "Resistance to Law Manipulation." Not Acausality or Resistance to Time Manipulation.

Hmm... Not sure about gravity, but the demon world definitely has weird laws, and the novel does directly state that demons don't follow the laws of the human world even while in it.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Slight correction, I got confused somewhere along the line I think due to the Beastheads scan. Resistance to Law Manip isn't being discussed here, it's Resistance to Physics Manip and Gravity Manip.

Okay. I do think the law manip should stay, but I'd need to hear from some of the sleepy brigade on the other two. Maybe you can get me a Pokeflute to wake them up.

 

[Deagonx]

Hmm... Well Dante definitely has it, even back in the novel. It's possible the demons that lack two brain cells to rub together might not have it.

This is for "Low Tier Demon Physiology" so this is the stuff that all demons are being claimed to have.

I figured it was both. Technically they still carry the same energy though. Demon energy for both. Same energy, same matter. Humans also consistently get messed up from demon power.

We have to demonstrate that pretty much all demons can just straight up corrupt people. Scans that their world is corruptive don't suffice.

Hmm... Not sure about gravity, but the demon world definitely has weird laws, and the novel does directly state that demons don't follow the laws of the human world even while in it.

Okay. I do think the law manip should stay, but I'd need to hear from some of the sleepy brigade on the other two.

Law Manip will be handled separately, I'm just focusing on the Resistance to Physics Manip and Gravity Manip. Their world having quirky physics isn't sufficient for that, especially since they pretty clearly follow physics in the human world. The scan about the Beastheads "not following the laws of this world" is too vague to say "all demons can resist powers that affect gravity and physics."

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Something that I would like to add to the list of downgrades or questionable abilities is this.

.

Low tier demon resiatnces

• Biological Manipulation: Demons are unaffected by the Demon World, which can change humans biologically[62]

To simply the blood of his kind (demons) is poisness towards humans, and turned them into a tree? Either way, I fail to see how this is a a resistance of any kind.

 

[Deagonx]

Something that I would like to add to the list of downgrades or questionable abilities is this.

There's many more than are in this thread, but I am trying to limit how many I handle at once, since even relatively straightforward removals can become complicated if someone really wants to make an argument out of it.

 

[Catzlaflame]

I agree with the removals ; the only thing I’ll say is that the corruption and willpower tend to stem from in-verse related issues. The logic is fine, but given that I know nothing about the series, if verse supporters provide sufficient counters, I’ll change my stance.

Haven’t gotten a chance to read the debate above though; will take a look again later, and see if that changes anything.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Supernatural Willpower: Demons are capable of using the powers of the Beastheads, and it is confirmed that you need a strong will and mind to be able to do so and also to not get possessed by it[22]

> Humans need a strong will to do that, but Beastheads are designed to absorb humans and replenish demons.

Chen, a demon-human like Dante, literally get's taken in by the beastheads at the end of the fight. That's why the novel says demons are "generally" immune to the beastheads, because most of the time they can't be taken in.

Immersion: Demons can enter inside mirrors[25].

This is just a portal that looks like a mirror. Immersion is defined as "crossing the boundary between reality and fiction." Mirror portals have nothing to do with that.

This is fair. The description will eventually be changed as we know demons can jump inside dreams and stuff like that as seen with the events of the CD2.

Corruption (Type 1): (Implanting demonic powers in someone to gain powers beyond what ordinary people are capable of, requires that the person in question has a strong mind and body to not become a mindless beast in the process[43])

This is a special ritual the Order of the Sword conducts to imbue themselves with Demonic Power. There's no evidence that the average demon can just do that to other people, which is what its presence on the "Low Tier Demon Physiology" section would imply.

Literal fodder doing this in the first novel:
He felt something tearing into his flesh. Denvers tried to shout for help, but his voice didn't work anymore. Nothing worked anymore – nothing but his nerve endings, transmitting endless pain as he was hacked to bits.

Denvers screamed silently.
...
A single man stood in front of him, legs apart. He wore a familiar red coat, which was ragged with holes. The man's body was coated with blood. His head sat uneasily atop a severed neck, held in place by a narrow strip of skin and muscle. It was a strange shadow of a man... a man Tony knew well.

“Does even the devil hate me so much that he sent you to rag on me, Denvers?”

“TOOONNNYYY!” The thing that had once been Denvers groaned hoarsely.

The atmosphere snapped back to normality as surely as if someone had flicked a switch. A gust of wind blew the last of the clouds away from the moon, driving the shadows further down the alley. Denvers' transformed corpse was all that remained of the uncanny episode.

Physics Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of physics are different from the Human World.[38]

Gravity Manipulation: Demons live in the Demon World, where the laws of gravity are different from the Human World.[25]

Why would this be "resistance?"

Because demons simply don't care about that, duh. They, as the scan with the beastheads say, don't follow the laws of the world, only nameless demons don't have this natural immunity so they need to adapt to the environment of hell.

Death Manipulation: Demons are unaffected by the Beasthead's mere presence, which is capable of robbing the life from everything in its surroundings, including sounds, waves and wind, as well as living creatures[39]

Ducas had the Beastheads for days and neither he nor anyone around him simply died on the spot or something.

That's the real form of the Beastheads, not it's statue form. Now you may say "well nothing died" but the scan literally says :"Rather than quiet, I would say that every sound - not just sound, but every living thing, large and small - has been robbed of its life in the "world" that surrounds it." Literally everything around them died, apparently including lifeless shit.

Now, you may also say "b-but Beryl didn't die". In the novel, moments later we are specifically told the Beastheads control her fate so she ends up devoured by them, it's literally the whole reason why she is even alive despite everything she goes through.

 

[Abstractions]

And thus you have your answer... Demons are generally immune to Beastheads' sheningans which is exactly why he couldn't assimilate them.

Its just another reason why he doesn't target Demons which is due to Beastheads specifically focusing on Humans and use them to power Demons

I'm a little puzzled as to why you can't consider the idea that the demons being immune to the beastheads has more to do with the fact that they aren't the target for it, it's meant to benefit them:

Chen, a demon-human like Dante, literally get's taken in by the beastheads at the end of the fight. That's why the novel says demons are "generally" immune to the beastheads, because most of the time they can't be taken in.

Like, if Tony is stating the truth here this would then be supporting Deagon's argument and not yours, Sonic. Because Chen being the anomaly that is taken in by the beastheads would be more than likely due to the fact he isn't full demon but instead demon-human.

I'm not a verse expert my experience is purely DMC3, but you must imagine how the average person could clue this together.

Literally everything around them died, apparently including lifeless shit.

All of this can be true and its mechanism still not be designed for targeting demons. All those things are in fact not demons after all.

 

[Palito266]

This is fair. The description will eventually be changed as we know demons can jump inside dreams and stuff like that as seen with the events of the CD2.

Even Vergil manages to do some immersion stuff in DMC 1.

 

[Deagonx]

Nothing worked anymore – nothing but his nerve endings, transmitting endless pain as he was hacked to bits.

Denvers screamed silently.
...
A single man stood in front of him, legs apart. He wore a familiar red coat, which was ragged with holes. The man's body was coated with blood. His head sat uneasily atop a severed neck, held in place by a narrow strip of skin and muscle. It was a strange shadow of a man... a man Tony knew well.

“Does even the devil hate me so much that he sent you to rag on me, Denvers?”

“TOOONNNYYY!” The thing that had once been Denvers groaned hoarsely.

The atmosphere snapped back to normality as surely as if someone had flicked a switch. A gust of wind blew the last of the clouds away from the moon, driving the shadows further down the alley. Denvers' transformed corpse was all that remained of the uncanny episode

This doesn't really read like corruption. More like necromancy because it seems Denvers got killed and then came back. In any case without more context it's not clear all demons can do this.

Because demons simply don't care about that, duh. They, as the scan with the beastheads say, don't follow the laws of the world, only nameless demons don't have this natural immunity so they need to adapt to the environment of hell.

That scan doesn't suggest all demons ignore gravity and physics. It doesn't specify what laws are being referred to and the Beastheads are not an analogue for low tier demons.

That's the real form of the Beastheads, not it's statue form. Now you may say "well nothing died" but the scan literally says :"Rather than quiet, I would say that every sound - not just sound, but every living thing, large and small - has been robbed of its life in the "world" that surrounds it." Literally everything around them died, apparently including lifeless shit.

Now, you may also say "b-but Beryl didn't die". In the novel, moments later we are specifically told the Beastheads control her fate so she ends up devoured by them, it's literally the whole reason why she is even alive despite everything she goes through.

If living things aren't actually dying, Beryl survives, and there's no direct proof that a Demon wouldn't die for some reason other than the beastheads just not targeting demons I don't feel that this suffices for saying "literally all demons have resistance to death manip." This scene is far too brief and vague to draw these sorts of conclusions.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm a little puzzled as to why you can't consider the idea that the demons being immune to the beastheads has more to do with the fact that they aren't the target for it, it's meant to benefit them:

Its both actually. Beastheads aren't meant to target Demons anyway that's true but they don't need to be because Demons are generally immune to Beastheads' assimilation process as you can see above, it's literally written right there.

Like, if Tony is stating the truth here this would then be supporting Deagon's argument and not yours, Sonic. Because Chen being the anomaly that is taken in by the beastheads would be more than likely due to the fact he isn't full demon but instead demon-human.

That isn't assimilation but rather his other abilities.

I don't meant to say that every ability of Beastheads would be ignored by Demons now lol. That specific statement was regarding assimilation anyway.

I'm not a verse expert my experience is purely DMC3, but you must imagine how the average person could clue this together.

Yeah and I'm trying to make the sense out of it as much as possible. I'm also really busy in RL and handling two separate threads at once soo i need some time to rest and think as well yk.

All of this can be true and its mechanism still not be designed for targeting demons. All those things are in fact not demons after all.

Here is the thing abstract. We know one fact that Beastheads' death hax works on even inanimate objects aside from the living beings as you can see in Tony's reply and the scan.

but every living thing, large and small - has been robbed of its life in the "world" that surrounds it

This can only mean one thing which is that this isn't any normal death hax on the go as it targets something that lacks the ability of dying at all soo obviously it work on living things like humans and so.

Now Beryl not dying could have her own reasons. Maybe Beastheads couldn't be targeting her at all? Coz her fate is literally tied to being devoured by Beastheads tbw.

As for Demons (which is the main topic here anyway), using semantics to twist words to mean something else which is not even said, is not not even worthy of being considered evidence.

Meanwhile people out here ignoring entire laundry list of scans as evidence of Beastheads' resistance. I'd rather use Occam's razor to give a conclusion.

It was stated very bluntly that Demonic form generally resists Beastheads' abilities. So we can obviously assume other Demons not dying around him would just mean that Beastheads' death hax not work on them.

Its not the same case as Beryl as she was literally surrounded by a plot armor there created by Beastheads itself.

She won't die till Beastheads devour her. So her case is nothing like Demons.

Demons have no reason for Beastheads not targeting them and the OP has no proof but assumptions to give a justification for Demons not being targeted.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

TL;DR:

Beastheads not targetting Demons is due to them specifically designed to not target them when it comes to assimilation process on top of being generally immune.

The same can't be said when it comes to Death hax as there is no statement for him not targetting Demons on that occasion and since it was stated that they are generally immune to BH. Thus, they should have resistance to Death hax on the basis of this alone.

 

[Abstractions]

Its both actually. Beastheads' aren't meant to target Demons anyway that's true but they don't need to be because Demons are generally immune to Beastheads' assimilation process as you can see above, it's literally written right there.

That's isn't assimilation but rather his other abilities.
I don't meant to say that every ability of Beastheads would be ignored by Demons now lol. That specific statement was regarding assimilation anyway.

Generally immune? As in you admit there's certain selective circumstances they aren't... curious.

As for Demons (which is the main topic here anyway), using semantics to twist words to mean something else which is not even said, is not not even worthy of being considered evidence.

"Semantics to twist words" is a funny way of phrasing "someone has a different interpretation of what the source material is telling me".

The same can't be said when it comes to Death hax as there is no statement for him not targetting Demons on that occasion and since it was stated that they are generally immune to BH. Thus, they should have resistance to Death hax on the basis of this alone.

Because an explicit open statement of them not targeting demons is necessary at every instance, as opposed to taking their intended purpose at face value. I need to be told "every living thing" does in fact not include the things it is already by design not targeting.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Generally immune? As in you admit there's certain selective circumstances they aren't... curious.

Yes but that would be only for low tier abilities of Beastheads from a logical standpoint.

"Semantics to twist words" is a funny way of phrasing "someone has a different interpretation of what the source material is telling me".

Its all just that but I'm taking the statements head on and since the statement was only regarding to assimilation so we should just take it to that only. There is no other reason we should expend this situation to other abilities of Beastheads as we have a key statement of Demons being generally immune to Beastheads to take into consideration here.

Because an explicit open statement of them not targeting demons is necessary at every instance, as opposed to taking their intended purpose at face value. I need to be told "every living thing" does in fact not include the things it is already by design not targeting.

Again, the statement was only regarding assimilation and it must be limited to that. It doesn't need to be taken in context for other abilities of Beastheads as it's unnecessary.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Alright lemme summarize here as to what is we are even arguing for among all this shitshow:

Supernatural willpower:

Humans with exceptionally strong willpower can resist Beastheads but the same can't be said for Demons given Beastheads generally don't target them.

However, we could just simply scale Humans to Demons as they both have similar physiology (treated as dualities even) as well as Demons generally treated to be superior to Humans so i don't see any problem doing cross scaling here.

Corruption:

We accepted soo far Demon World Energy causes curroption however Deagon arguing that this is only limited to Demon World and not to the inhabitants of this realm despite them born within it, breathing within it and being their literal power source.

Anyway Tony already taken care of this here so I don't need to expend on it anymore atleast for now.

Laws of physics and gravity:

This is kinda controversial since it wasn't specifically stated to be like that but the main argument for this one is that Demons ignores the laws of the Human World in general so it must've included laws of both gravity and physics.

Deagon is arguing that this is only specific to Beastheads to which our answer is that the text is referring to "beings" and "aliens" which could be referring to Demons as well in general soo its in a middle road atm.

Death manipulation resistance:

The argument for this one is that given Beastheads generally don't target Demons due to a statement referring to BH assimilates Humans to empower Demons meaning it generally don't attack Demons and thus resistance for Demons doesn't make any sense given there is nothing to resist here tbw.

Our argument is that that specific statement was only limited to assimilation process as that is what Beastheads is designed for on top of having a very blatant statement of Demons being generally immune to Beastheads' abilities. Therefore, the resistance to death hax should be at the very least be still there.

Causality, precognition and immersion is still needed to be argued since the focus is mostly on above abilities but resistance to pain manipulation needs to go so far.

Anyway @GilverTheProtoAngelo told me that he would personally handle this thread after a certain period of time soo i request this thread should be postponed till he is free to discuss this here.

 

[Deagonx]

Its both actually. Beastheads aren't meant to target Demons anyway that's true but they don't need to be because Demons are generally immune to Beastheads' assimilation process as you can see above, it's literally written right there.

This is begging the question. The argument is that them being immune is merely a reference to the function of the Beastheads. However, several of these statements are prior to Chen and Dante's revelation that the Beastheads replenish demons rather than absorbing them.

We know one fact that Beastheads' death hax works on even inanimate objects aside from the living beings

Again, three problems. 1) no living thing died during that sequence. 2) Beastheads aren't comparable to lower tier demons. 3) the beastheads don't target demons regardless.

However, we could just simply scale Humans to Demons as they both have similar physiology (treated as dualities even) as well as Demons generally treated to be superior to Humans so i don't see any problem doing cross scaling here.

None of that would be a justification for Supernatural Willpower.

We accepted soo far Demon World Energy causes curroption however Deagon arguing that this is only limited to Demon World and not to the inhabitants of this realm despite them born within it, breathing within it and being their literal power source.

Anyway Tony already taken care of this here so I don't need to expend on it anymore atleast for now.

The demons inhabiting the Demon world doesn't mean they have the ability to do everything the demon world does by default. Also, Tony's response doesn't appear to be describing corruption regardless.

This is kinda controversial since it wasn't specifically stated to be like that but the main argument for this one is that Demons ignores the laws of the Human World in general so it must've included laws of both gravity and physics.

Deagon is arguing that this is only specific to Beastheads to which our answer is that the text is referring to "beings" and "aliens" which could be referring to Demons as well in general soo its in a middle road atm.

It's far too speculative, and is directly contradicted by the fact that demons are clearly subject to gravity and physics in the human world.

Anyway @GilverTheProtoAngelo told me that he would personally handle this thread after a certain period of time soo i request this thread should be postponed till he is free to discuss this here.

No, I won't be postponing this for a specific user.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

This is begging the question. The argument is that them being immune is merely a reference to the function of the Beastheads. However, several of these statements are prior to Chen and Dante's revelation that the Beastheads replenish demons rather than absorbing them.
Again, three problems. 1) no living thing died during that sequence. 2) Beastheads aren't comparable to lower tier demons. 3) the beastheads don't target demons regardless.

Your questions are only limited to how you interpret it but my interpretation also makes as much sense, perhaps even more then yours.

They know from the basic knowledge that Demons do, in fact, resist Beastheads' abilities, what abilities is we don't know but we can logically conclude that it is talking regarding the low tier abilities which would include Death hax coz, as you said, no living thing died coz most of them resisted it.

Bringing Beryl is useless coz as you have realized by now that Beastheads is basically giving her the plot armour till he personally devours her one day.

And finally, the text you gave only talks about assimilation process. Nothing about other Beastheads' abilities so we should better not expend it on other things that are not referred specifically. Even if we do, it won't make much difference.

None of that would be a justification for Supernatural Willpower.

For what reason exactly?

Humans with exceptionally strong will power can resist Beastheads' influence that much is confirmed (it's stated right there) soo we could say the same for Demons as well given they are literally the opposite aspect of Humans and their nature are like dualities whatsoever on top of being considered generally more superior so scaling both of them seems fine to me.

The demons inhabiting the Demon world doesn't mean they have the ability to do everything the demon world does by default. Also, Tony's response doesn't appear to be describing corruption regardless.

Demon World and Demons, as an extension, uses Demonic Energy which are described as "evil".

This same Demon World Energy was used to replenish Gilver, Dante and the Demons he got on his side when they were venturing into the heart of Underworld itself.

With all these evidences above, its pretty safe and logical to assume Demonic Energy and Demon World Energy are no different then one another and thus this case should be closed right here.

It's far too speculative, and is directly contradicted by the fact that demons are clearly subject to gravity and physics in the human world.

Where? Its on them if they wanna subject themselves to it or not. If they don't, they just don't. Also we can't forget that it could be only seen the way it is through gameplay perspective which is reasonable.

Heck if you wanna argue it like that then Demon Gods like Urizen seems to follow the laws of Human World despite being much superior to Beastheads in general who ignores all of it.

No, I won't be postponing this for a specific user.

Alright then. Not like it would take him ages to reply afaik.

 

[Deagonx]

They know from the basic knowledge that Demons do, in fact, resist Beastheads' abilities

It doesn't target them. It's a power transformer for human souls.

which would include Death hax coz, as you said, no living thing died coz most of them resisted it.

There were only two living things mentioned in that sequence, Dante and Beryl. Dante is a demon, Beryl is a human. Neither died. It's not clear it was supposed to kill them either, or if random wildlife or other humans would've simply died, and further that low tier demons would've resisted it.

For what reason exactly?

Humans with exceptionally strong will power can resist Beastheads' influence that much is confirmed (it's stated right there) soo we could say the same for Demons as well given they are literally the opposite aspect of Humans and their nature are like dualities whatsoever on top of being considered generally more superior so scaling both of them seems fine to me.

I'm sure there might be demons that exist who have supernatural Willpower. The fact remains that there being humans with strong wills does not mean "all low tier demons have supernatural Willpower." Those two pieces of information are not mutually inclusive.

Demon World and Demons, as an extension, uses Demonic Energy which are described as "evil".

This same Demon World Energy was used to replenish Gilver, Dante and the Demons he got on his side when they were venturing into the heart of Underworld itself.

With all these evidences above, its pretty safe and logical to assume Demonic Energy and Demon World Energy are no different then one another and thus this case should be closed right here.

I'm not contesting that the energies are different, I am noting that the environmental effects of the Demon World on humans cannot automatically be extrapolated to be a part of the routine arsenal of every single Demon in the world. This is quite a reach.

Its on them if they wanna subject themselves to it or not.

There's no evidence that every Demon can simply decide whether or not they want to be affected by gravity or physics. You are clearly grasping at straws here, and I'm not interested in dragging out the discussion much further if you're going to make wild unsubstantiated claims like this. I'm content to agree to disagree rather than go in circles.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Sigh...

It doesn't target them. It's a power transformer for human souls.

Why repeating the same thing I'm also saying? He doesn't target them coz his assimilation process was designed specifically for Humans on top of Demons having natural immunity to Beastheads' abilities.

There were only two living things mentioned in that sequence, Dante and Beryl. Dante is a demon, Beryl is a human. Neither died. It's not clear it was supposed to kill them either, or if random wildlife or other humans would've simply died, and further that low tier demons would've resisted it.

My guy... Comparing Dante to Beryl is like comparing a nuke to a coughing baby. Dante obviously won't be budged from this.

Beryl case is explained in detailed as BH have her fate sealed to specifically eat her. If she dies right there then how you think his fate hax going to let him devour her?

I'm sure there might be demons that exist who have supernatural Willpower. The fact remains that there being humans with strong wills does not mean "all low tier demons have supernatural Willpower." Those two pieces of information are not mutually inclusive.

Lesser Demons are considered superior to Humans in general so take that however you want. If some Humans have capability of resisting BH then Demons definitely do even if they are lesser ones

I'm not contesting that the energies are different, I am noting that the environmental effects of the Demon World on humans cannot automatically be extrapolated to be a part of the routine arsenal of every single Demon in the world. This is quite a reach.

And on what basis do you claim this exactly? Its literally the same energy they utilize in literally every. single. thing. Go and look over the Demonic Energy page of the wiki to get an idea how vital Demonic Energy is for them and how it is used in nearly every single abilities they have.

There's no evidence that every Demon can simply decide whether or not they want to be affected by gravity or physics. You are clearly grasping at straws here, and I'm not interested in dragging out the discussion much further if you're going to make wild unsubstantiated claims like this. I'm content to agree to disagree rather than go in circles.

Same here. I'm not the type of dude to go into circles whatsoever.

However your logic demands that Demon Gods are bounded by the laws of the Human World but inferior beings like Beastheads do not. Its just the illusion of gameplay. If we go lore wise, they do not care about the laws of Human World (which would include laws of gravity and physics) as the statement for it within BH's death hax scan makes the case very clear.

Anyway if you indeed wanna go with agree to disagree then count me in.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Did bad Internet make you post this twice…?

Anyways, I’ll give my thoughts in a sec

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Did bad Internet make you post this twice…?

Anyways, I’ll give my thoughts in a sec

For some reason... Yeah