Divines, Daedra and Lorkhan

[Aroht]

hello everyone,

can someone explain me why the divines never interact with mortal like the daedra do ? are the divines dead or something like that ?


akatosh and lorkhan seem extremely equal in power/importance, why lorkhan is only 2 litle moon and akatosh a big planet ? is nirn the third part of lokhan "plane" ?


and what about mannimarco apotheosis ? he become a god like other divine but he his not an et'ada originaly, he is "dead" like other divines ? that's a bit paradoxal for the god of necromancy/undead no ?


last question, a connexion with the necromancer moon (mannimarco god form) and the soul cairn ?


thx

 

[Ogbunabali]

What do you mean the Aedra never interact with mortals? You get blessings all the time, Oblivion plot, you literally interact with Mara and Zenithar in Morrowind, etc.

All the celestial bodies you see in the sky aren't actual celestial bodies, they are just how mortals perceive them because of mental stress. In actuality they are infinite plane(t)s of existence, no "moon" is smaller or larger than another plane(t).

He isn't dead there are two Mannimarco's.One is the King of Worms Mannimarco the mortal, and the other is The God of Worms Mannimarco the god. He did actually achieve divinity in Daggerfal but because of the Warp in the West, aka the Dragon Break, he split into two entities.

Pretty sure there isn't any connection between those two things. I mean the Soul Cairn is just a realm of Oblivion that very powerful mortals that claimed as their own when they became extremely powerful immortals.

 

[Aroht]

Thx for the reply , i mean yes the aedra interact but i see that more like a game mechanic, in comparison the daedra can actively interact with mortal. During oblivion crisis the aedra did nothing, its matin septim who use the amulet for defeat Dagon no ?


And when molag bal turn lamae bal into vampire arkay did nothing too and never help her...

 

[Ogbunabali]

Avatar of Akatosh is what I was talking about.

Well the Aedra are very passive and subtle gods, they don't always react to everything.

 

[Aroht]

thanks for the answer, the aedra are more complicated to understand than the daedra for me because of their innaction and their fragmented soul (dova, shezzarine)

 

[Ogbunabali]

No problem. I can understand why the Aedra would be confusing because of the way they are portrayed in the games. Not to mention how Skyrim made AKA more confusing than it was with calling Alduin "the firs born of Akatosh" which isn't even technically true.

 

[Aroht]

And what is the connexion between the aedra and aetherius ? They are normaly bound to mundus but shor(shard of lorkhan) create sovngard in aetherius ƒñö

if the planet are the plane of the divine and not their dead body, what about the ehlnofey ? Many et'ada been involved to create mundus but juste some get a "plane" or "planet" why ?

That's why i think the divines are dead in a sense of they lose their body/plane and live as a fragmented soul able to go to mundus and aetherius, but unable to physicaly manifest on nirn and just appear like a spirit

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well Sovengarde, and by extension Shor, is a mythopoetic manifestation of the collective unconsciousness of the Nords it isn't directly Lorkhan.

There are two primary fractions of Ehlnofey. Some of the Ehlnofey decided to give up their bodies and became the very land, laws the very make of Nirn. And the ones that didn't want to give up their bodies and eventually became the Aldmer and later the different Mer races. So that's why they don't have their own plane(t)s.

 

[Aroht]

Thx, TES is hard to understand lol

 

[Aroht]

Last question,

Is Magnus the incarnation of anu(the godhead) in is own dream ? He embody the concept of magic like aka is timr and lorkhan is space or magic come from aetherius ?

Why we don't see them while the magna-ge(mnemoli) create the elder scrolls ? They are passive by nature?

And what make the numidium so powerful ? Is paradoxal existence (god/tower who deni the existence of reality/god) or something else ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Magnus is a reflection or an echo of ANU the Amaranth, or at least some of his personality. Yeah his sphere is the one of Magic, similar to how the Daedric Princes embody some concept of their own.

I don't think the Magne-Ge created the Elder Scrolls. Michael Kirkbride suggested they were their keepers not the writers. I don't think we know enough to come up with something conclusive as to who "wrote" the Elder Scrolls.

This quote of Micheal Kirkbride should help you understand both of your question I think.

"Tamriel. Starry Heart. That whole ******* thing is a song. It was made either out of 12 planets, or from two brothers that split in the womb. Either way, it's the primal wail and those that grew up on it - they can't help but hear it, and add to it, or try to control it, or run from it. The reason there IS music on Tamriel at ALL is because it exists. It was and is and it will not stop. There are repeats in it; plays on a tune. Variations. And most likely Magnus? (He's the one that made the ******, and now that's why he looks back on it, every single day, that's his promise. "When you wake up, I will still listen. I'm sorry I left, but hey, I'm still right up here. And my mnemoli? They show up every now and then, and collect all the songs you've made since the last time around. The last real moment." The Mnemoli? They're the keepers of the Elder Scrolls. They cannot be fixed until seen. And they cannot be seen until a moment. And you, your hero, makes that moment."

 

[Aroht]

Thx

And what about pelinal ? He is basicaly a robot with a soul (shezzarine) with the amulet of kings as heart ? He was built by the divines ?

What is madness ? how he can be outside of the godhead ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

You should probably read The Song of Pelinal a lot of the those stuff about him are adressed there.

 

[Aroht]

Thx a lot ƒæìƒæì

 

[Aroht]

Another one last thing

What's the divines have to sacrifice for the creation of mundus ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, for the most part, they basically sacrificed their freedom and bound themselves to Mundus.

 

[Aroht]

But the divines can go to aetherius right? If is just that, why Magnus and the magna-ge fled to aetherius?

And talos does have accomplished all the six walking way ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

They can't because they had to bind themselves in Mundus in order to keep it from collapsing. The Magne-Ge and Magnus fled to Aetherius before it was too late.

He has achieved CHIM, yes.

 

[Aroht]

Thx very much ƒæì

 

[Aroht]

Well well another question

What is the state of amaranth ? And what is the benefit ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well that's a very complicated subject, so I'll try and simplify it for convenience sake, and for you to better understand it since it's hard to explain it in a post I would suggest you go and just read everything you can find about metaphysics and philosophy in The Elder Scrolls.

With that out of the way, starting from the beginning, when Lorhkan saw the Tower sideways and saw the "I", he realized that there was something more, now I don't think he specifically knew it was CHIM, at least not at the time, but he realized that it was something greater. So he created the Mundus, mortal plane, or the "Arena", with the goal in mind so that a mortal will eventually ascend to something greater, something that isn't exactly a God, because there is a clear distinction between achieving CHIM and Godhood.

Since a God lives in a perpetual stasis, they experience no hardship meaning they can never progress and improve, only a mortal who has experienced pain, and struggle, and has worked can move forward and advance, both physically and metaphysically. That's why only mortals can achieve CHIM and not Gods. And this, whether by design or coincidence, is the "metaphorical" reason for the sole existence of plane of existence Mundus, which is mirrored from the Dream itself, which is to achieve the state of Amarnath.

So when you achieve CHIM, for lack of a better word, you become "omnipotent" in the Dream itself. Because when you become a Ruling King, it's like imagine when you literally dream at night and all of those people that you imagine and see suddenly one of them turns to you and looks at you and realizes that they are dreamed up by you but at the same time retain their ego, so the next logical step to this, considering CHIM is just a stepping stone to Amarnath, is the "marriage" (the joining of Jubal and Vivec in C0DA as well as Micheal Kirkbride saying that when Vivec tried to go to the next step of becoming an Amarnath alone he "couldn't commit to that marriage") of two CHIM users joining and creating, metaphysically or literally who knows, an "offspring" which is the Amarnath itself, becoming the lowest subgradient and starting to dream a Dream of it's own with absolute Love, hopefully.

 

[Aroht]

Thx again for the time you take for me.

it's more clear but becoming the amaranth make you like anu, a being with no personality and unawar of it's own dream?

Stay as chim user seem beter because you are basicaly a god without any limitation no ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

According to this diagram drawn by Michael Kirkbride yeah the Godhead cannot perceive itself.

I mean it's a matter of philosophy really. Some say the difference between CHIM and the Amaranth is selfish Love and selfless Love. But at the end of the day it's the logical conclusion to the path of "I ARE ALL WE", you become the all encompassing Love and make way for a new Dream and a new Amaranth.

 

[Aroht]

Well whan you become the amaranth you stay as the ruling king in the same time but you are outside of the godhead ?

My point of view is chim is the ultimate state of being because when you start a new dream you loose the control you have over it no ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't understand this question.

No you don't lose control in the Dream, you become the Dream.

 

[Aroht]

Without understanding my question you have anwered it thx

 

[Aroht]

the deeper I go in the cosmology and more questions I have,

I read somewhere that dagoth ur "reach" the state of anti-chim, what's that mean ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Yeah well you see, when Dagoth Ur died he went into the Dreamsleeve, which is a place kinda like in Buddhist philosophy, where your souls get stripped out of their ego and memories and get "recycled" to get ready to be reborn.

But, because of Dagoth's connection to the Heart of Lorhkan, he didn't forget. He instead dreams inside the Dreamsleeve, not really alive and not really dead either, and the Dagoth Ur you see in Morrowind that's just his dreaming self projecting a sort of hologram into the reality.

So you know how when you perceive the Tower, or the Wheel of Aurubis, form the side you see "I"? Well Dagoth Ur experienced the complete opposite of that, instead of seeing it from the side, he saw it sideways, and instead of seeing an "I" he saw a line. He sees infinity. So instead of seeing that he and everything else is a part of the Godhead, he perceives the complete opposite, that everything is a part of him.

And so he achieves the complete opposite state of CHIM, so called "Anti-CHIM".

 

[Aroht]

Well "anti-chim" don't give him any "power/control" but just prevent him for being zero-summed ?


Another question about the amaranth, if i understand, the godhead dream is "dream-1" and when you become the amaranth you are cut/free and begin to dream your own dream "dream-2" ? But if you become the amaranth you have no power over the "dream-1", you are totally cut from it ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

The name "Anti-CHIM" is just a name, it's not actually a "power up" he received. It's more like just shows his philosophy when completely misunderstanding the point of "I ARE ALL WE".

Because there can't two Dreams "occupying the same space" so to speak so when you achieve the state of Amaranth, you "cut yourself off" the original Dream and make a new one unconnected to it.

 

[Aroht]

Well thx again

 

[Aroht]

Well well well ƒÖâ pelinal seem to share a connexion with shor and akatosh, so i have another question, it's possible to be a shezzarine and a dovahkiin at the same time ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well The Dovahkii is exactly that, as well as Talos.

 

[Aroht]

when I see the profile of the divines, aka and lorkhan seem to be the only divines that are not "bound" to mundus and thus limited in power because they are time and space across all the aurbis right?

and talos have CHIM but he is a bit different, he achieved five of the six walking ways:
he is a tower, he uses the numidium, he is an Oversoul(Talos), he mantled lorkhan and he attained the state of CHIM, is possible for him to be zero-summed when Azura, totally erased by Vivec finally reform?

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's totally possible for him to get Zero-Summed. Everytime he taps into CHIM he risks getting Zero-Summed as well as, like everyone else in the Elder Scrolls universe.

 

[Aroht]

And what happened to vivec ? He have chim but without the power of the heart he still die ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

The Heart of Lorhkan is needed for him to retain his "divinity", but his state of CHIM is independent of that. And he didn't die as we see in "The Trial of Vivec" and later after that in C0DA when he marries Jubal.

 

[Aroht]

And because of the heart of lorkhan, dagoth ur return in mundos when awake in the dreamsleeve, it's the same process for a lich or "undying lich" like mannarco for return to mundus through a phylactery ?

It's the last question i promise ƒÿ£

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well not exactly. Because Dagoth Ur is dead like 100% dead, gone. But his soul is awake in the Dreamsleeve, where he dreams and creates a projection of himself on Nirn. The one you see in Morrowind wasn't really a "real" Dagoth Ur, he was something akin to a hologram.

 

[Aroht]

thx for every answer, you help me a lot