Dio Over Heaven Downgrade

[StrawManMan]

I believe that the "likely Infinite " speed for Dio Over Heaven should be removed for two reasons.

1. It is inconsistent as it's both shown and implied that regular Star Platinum is able to tag Dio Over Heaven

The first instance is when the Joestars first meet Dio; during this Jotaro is able to run directly towards Dio. He then proceeds to throw a punch at Dio and hit him. Dio clearly notices the punch before impact and leans back a little yet isn't able to block or dodge it in time.

The second instance of Dio being tagged by Star Platinum is suggested during the later parts of the game. After the Joestars beat up Dio in chapter 12 Josuke states to Dio "How do you like that?! Jotaro's Star Platinum is invincible!"

Now why would Josuke specifically refer to Star Platinum being invincible after beating up Dio if it didn't play a significant role during the fight? It must've ATLEAST hit him once.

2. The reason for why Dio Over Heaven even has likely infinite speed is because of GER's RTZ but the issue with this is that the Giorno/GER or atleast the function of RTZ in the game is different from the main continuity

In the main canon not only does GER work sort of independently from the user and can use RTZ without contact but it's also stated by GER itself that Giorno has no knowledge of RTZ.

Yet in the game Giorno has full control of GER, is well aware of RTZ and seems to need direct contact with his opponent, before saying the lines "You'll never reach the truth!" in order to use RTZ.

Based on these reasons, you'd have to prove that Eyes Of Heaven Giorno/GER has infinite speed due to RTZ which I believe wouldn't be the case due to reason 1; if we take it that GER's RTZ speed isn't infinite in EOH, then Dio Over Heaven's speed scaling becomes more consistent.

 

[joshpiece]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/heaven-ascension-dio-speed-crt.113317/
Read this thread all your arguments have been addressed previously

 

[StrawManMan]

I've already seen that thread before, all that's said is that TWOH should have infinite speed due to GER's RTZ being infinite speed. I said in this thread that this Giorno/GER is different from the one in main canon so you'd have to prove that his RTZ is still infinite in speed. None of that was brought up in the thread you just posted.

 

[MishimaBloodline]

I can see where your coming from
Is there any contradiction in the game that can be used to suggest that EoH GER is slower or has different abilities?

 

[StrawManMan]

I can see where your coming from
Is there any contradiction in the game that can be used to suggest that EoH GER is slower or has different abilities?

Like I said, the main contradiction is that regular Star Platinum is able to tag Dio Over Heaven twice in the game yet GER with supposedly infinite speed RTZ isn't able to revert him in time.

Also with the different abilities part, I'm saying that this Giorno/GER should be different since Giorno is aware of GER's abilities yet Giorno in the main canon he isn't. So you'd have to prove that EOH GER would have infinite speed via RTZ which, once again, is contradicted by regular Star Platinum tagging Dio twice.

 

[StrawManMan]

I can see where your coming from
Is there any contradiction in the game that can be used to suggest that EoH GER is slower or has different abilities?

The way GER reverted Dio (him needing to punch Dio to use RTZ) instead of how he reverted Diavolo may support the idea that it's a different GER. Other than that, I don't know.

 

[StekFence]

Like I said, the main contradiction is that regular Star Platinum is able to tag Dio Over Heaven twice in the game yet GER with supposedly infinite speed RTZ isn't able to revert him in time.

Also with the different abilities part, I'm saying that this Giorno/GER should be different since Giorno is aware of GER's abilities yet Giorno in the main canon he isn't. So you'd have to prove that EOH g would have infinite speed via RTZ which, once again, is contradicted by regular Star Platinum tagging Dio twice.

I mean, this Giorno has significantly more time with ger, and it’s kinda dumb if giorno was gonna fight someone, and then ger doesn’t tell giorno what it does

 

[StekFence]

The only reason canon giorno didn’t know is because Ger appeared and instantly crushed Kc.

 

[StekFence]

egular Star Platinum is able to tag Dio Over Heaven

This is an inconsistency already, because Ger and Tusk are Above and comparable in speed to Sp, and they got hard countered anyway. Given that, Sp should never have landed a hit vs a stand that can match Ger in speed.

Ger is above every canon stand, so if it can’t land a hit without being countered, sp doesn’t have a chance. Tusk landed hits on diegos Tw, so it has comparable speed to Sp. and tusk got block 3 times. The game just wanks Jotaro what can I say

 

[Eficiente]

On top of this Giorno ran and reacted to GER himself and the game already showed other imprecise characterizations of characters.

The thread linked above had the matter kinda overlooked, and given DIO's relevance and how we're going over this twice by now I will move this to a staff thread. Chariot can obviously comment.

 

[Eficiente]

@Chariot190 @Promestein @SomebodyData @JustSomeWeirdo @QuasiYuri @Starter_Pack @Sir_Ovens @Crabwhale

 

[StrawManMan]

I mean, this Giorno has significantly more time with ger, and it’s kinda dumb if giorno was gonna fight someone, and then ger doesn’t tell giorno what it does

The first part of your statement is just wrong. This Giorno is from the part right after beating Diavolo:

And for the second part. Occam's razor. That's a big assumption to say that GER spoke to Giorno in person something he has never done in canon and some how off screen before meeting Dio OH even though GER was only used once in the game against Dio OH.

 

[StekFence]

The first part of your statement is just wrong. This Giorno is from the part right after beating Diavolo:

Alr, I admit using the word significantly is wrong. What I meant to say is he has more time with Ger.

 

[StrawManMan]

The only reason canon giorno didn’t know is because Ger appeared and instantly crushed Kc.

So once again, canon Giorno doesn't know about GER's abilities yet EOH does.

 

[StekFence]

That's a big assumption to say that GER spoke to Giorno in person something he has never done in canon and some how off screen before meeting Dio OH even though GER was only used once in the game against Dio OH.

It’s a pretty simple assumption that a person would want to be informed on how their weapon works, before the go into a fight. Especially since at the end, Giorno is informed on how said weapon works. And the only one who knew what the weapon did before Giorno did was Ger. Which is his sentient talking stand that has every reason to tell him.
edit:did not realize this was a staff thread now

 

[StrawManMan]

This is an inconsistency already, because Ger and Tusk are Above and comparable in speed to Sp, and they got hard countered anyway. Given that, Sp should never have landed a hit vs a stand that can match Ger in speed.

Ger is above every canon stand, so if it can’t land a hit without being countered, sp doesn’t have a chance. Tusk landed hits on diegos Tw, so it has comparable speed to Sp. and tusk got block 3 times. The game just wanks Jotaro what can I say

How is it an inconsistency? I gave you two instances of Star Platinum doing it yet there's only one of Dio OH reacting to GER. Also where's the prove for Tusk being above SP? Even if I steelman your argument there, mine would still be consistent. Lets say that both GER and TA4 is above SP in speed. It wouldn't matter because I could just agree that since Dio OH was busy dealing with them, him being off guard allowed SP the opportunity to tag him. And this doesn't debunk my argument (Dio OH being off guard allowed SP to speed blitz so he'd still have infinite speed) since by battle wikis standards: "Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed" and like I said before Dio OH saw SP's punch so he should've been able to react in 0 seconds.

In summary what I'm trying to say is:
finite speed character can be blitzed by a finite speed character of lower speed while off guard because it takes them time to react
infinite speed character can't be blitzed by a finite speed character because it takes them no time to react and they view finite speed characters as completely frozen

 

[StekFence]

How is it an inconsistency? I gave you two instances of Star Platinum doing it yet there's only one of Dio OH reacting to GER. Also where's the prove for Tusk being above SP? Even if I steelman your argument there, mine would still be consistent. Lets say that both GER and TA4 is above SP in speed. It wouldn't matter because I could just agree that since Dio OH was busy dealing with them, him being off guard allowed SP the opportunity to tag him. And this doesn't debunk my argument (Dio OH being off guard allowed SP to speed blitz so he'd still have infinite speed) since by battle wikis standards: "Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed" and like I said before Dio OH saw SP's punch so he should've been able to react in 0 seconds.

In summary what I'm trying to say is:
finite speed character can be blitzed by a finite speed character of lower speed while off guard because it takes them time to react
infinite speed character can't be blitzed by a finite speed character because it takes them no time to react and they view finite speed characters as completely frozen

The reason sp can hit Dio, while faster stands have failed, is because of Pis. Thats all. It’s an outlier. Also, I’m not trying to say tusk is faster, Im trying to say he is comparable. 2 stands that are at least as fast can’t do it. Sp, basically the main char can do it, so it’s just an outlier feat made for the sake of plot. Also, Twoh Was able to rush Tusk,Ger, and Sp all at the same time without them being able to do anything. So it’s obviously at least somewhat faster Then ger. Your summary is correct, assuming the chars are operating consistently. But in this case, it would make no sense to argue its consistent.

 

[StrawManMan]

It’s a pretty simple assumption that a person would want to be informed on how their weapon works, before the go into a fight. Especially since at the end, Giorno is informed on how said weapon works. And the only one who knew what the weapon did before Giorno did was Ger. Which is his sentient talking stand that has every reason to tell him.
edit:did not realize this was a staff thread now

How is it simple when you're assuming that: "GER spoke to Giorno in person something he has never done in canon and some how off screen before meeting Dio OH even though GER was only used once in the game against Dio OH." ?

When was Giorno informed at the end of part 5 how GER works? All he says is that he FEELS as though he knows what it does. He doesn't have a general grasp:

And like I showed you earlier, EOH had just beaten Diavolo so why would he know more than that feeling?

 

[StekFence]

How is it simple when you're assuming that: "GER spoke to Giorno in person something he has never done in canon and some how off screen before meeting Dio OH even though GER was only used once in the game against Dio OH." ?

When was Giorno informed at the end of part 5 how GER works? All he says is that he FEELS as though he knows what it does. He doesn't have a general grasp:

And like I showed you earlier, EOH had just beaten Diavolo so why would he know more than that feeling?

Because a decent amount of time elapses from beating diavalo to fight diooh for one. Also, He knows what the stand does, the only one who knows beside him is his stand, so obviously his stand told him. Who else would. There’s actually no other way for him to know. Especially considering that the game makes it obvious that each of the chars are coming from right after their manga part ends

 

[StrawManMan]

The reason sp can hit Dio, while faster stands have failed, is because of Pis. Thats all. It’s an outlier. Also, I’m not trying to say tusk is faster, Im trying to say he is comparable. 2 stands that are at least as fast can’t do it. Sp, basically the main char can do it, so it’s just an outlier feat made for the sake of plot. Also, Twoh Was able to rush Tusk,Ger, and Sp all at the same time without them being able to do anything. So it’s obviously at least somewhat faster Then ger. Your summary is correct, assuming the chars are operating consistently. But in this case, it would make no sense to argue its consistent.

How is it an outlier? I gave you two instances of SP tagging Dio OH. You only have one instance of Dio OH reacting to GER's RTZ. So by this logic Your case is the outlier since the preponderance of evidence is on my side. And once again, Dio blitzing Johnny, Giorno and Jotaro doesn't contradict my argument. All I have to argue is that since Dio OH was busy fighting TA4 and GER, he was off guard so it gave SP the opportunity to tag him. You're arguing that he has infinite speed: the speed that allows him to react to characters like Jotaro in literally no time.

 

[StrawManMan]

Because a decent amount of time elapses from beating diavalo to fight diooh for one. Also, He knows what the stand does, the only one who knows beside him is his stand, so obviously his stand told him. Who else would. There’s actually no other way for him to know. Especially considering that the game makes it obvious that each of the chars are coming from right after their manga part ends

Stop saying a decent time had passed, I literally gave you prove that he had JUST beaten Diavolo. Not only does he not know what GER does (he said HE FEELS as if he knows) but once again: Occam's Razor. You assuming that GER somehow talked to Giorno which he's never done in canon, while off screen, just before he needed to fight Dio OH; since that's the only time he used GER.

 

[StrawManMan]

On top of this Giorno ran and reacted to GER himself and the game already showed other imprecise characterizations of characters.

The thread linked above had the matter kinda overlooked, and given DIO's relevance and how we're going over this twice by now I will move this to a staff thread. Chariot can obviously comment.

What's a staff thread? Sorry, I'm kinda new to battle wiki.

 

[StekFence]

How is it an outlier? I gave you two instances of SP tagging Dio OH. You only have one instance of Dio OH reacting to GER's RTZ. So by this logic Your case is the outlier since the preponderance of evidence is on my side. And once again, Dio blitzing Johnny, Giorno and Jotaro doesn't contradict my argument. All I have to argue is that since Dio OH was busy fighting TA4 and GER, he was off guard so it gave SP the opportunity to tag him. You're arguing that he has infinite speed: the speed that allows him to react to characters like Jotaro in literally no time.

Dio Matched Ger. Dio Blocked Tusk 3 times. Dio Blitzed Johnny,Jotaro, and Giorno at the same time. And as you showed, dio indeed reacted to Jotaros hit. And stands are about as fast as the users reaction time, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to wield them. So Dio knew the hit was coming, and couldn’t shift his stand that’s already next to him like, 2 feet? A stand that has 3 feats of being at least as fast as star platinum? That is the evolution of the stand who is closest to star plat in speed? he was not busy fighting anyone. He punched Gers fist, and then Jotaro attacked him. He could have easily reacted to Jotaro. Its a plain inconsistency that he didn’t. Remember, he straight up blitzed Jotaro,someone comparable to him,and someone faster all at the same time.

 

[Eficiente]

What's a staff thread? Sorry, I'm kinda new to battle wiki.

You made the thread so you can comment.

It’s a pretty simple assumption that a person would want to be informed on how their weapon works, before the go into a fight. Especially since at the end, Giorno is informed on how said weapon works. And the only one who knew what the weapon did before Giorno did was Ger. Which is his sentient talking stand that has every reason to tell him.
edit:did not realize this was a staff thread now

As I see it, it is a "simple" assumption that GER told Giorno, but an assumption no less as we didn't see it happen. If this alone was all there is to it there wouldn't be an issue, but it already adds to other impressions and so it might very simply not be that GER told Giorno, but that they did whatever while taking creative freedoms/concluded other things of what was shown with GER, and that leads to it not having Infinite speed in this version.

The reason sp can hit Dio, while faster stands have failed, is because of Pis. Thats all. It’s an outlier. Also, I’m not trying to say tusk is faster, Im trying to say he is comparable. 2 stands that are at least as fast can’t do it. Sp, basically the main char can do it, so it’s just an outlier feat made for the sake of plot. Also, Twoh Was able to rush Tusk,Ger, and Sp all at the same time without them being able to do anything. So it’s obviously at least somewhat faster Then ger.

It isn't an outlier, it was part of the plot that SP matched TWOH, Valentine saw this and used it in part of his small plot to defeat DIO, and the characters talking point out that at least Speedwagon, Giorno and Johnny reacted to TWOH moving, all while no one talked about its speed but rather what its ability was almost as if everyone reacted to it. If Heaven DIO were to have Infinite speed (he doesn't) so would others and many more in reactions, it's clear as water that it's imprecise.

 

[StrawManMan]

Dio Matched Ger. Dio Blocked Tusk 3 times. Dio Blitzed Johnny,Jotaro, and Giorno at the same time. And as you showed, dio indeed reacted to Jotaros hit. And stands are about as fast as the users reaction time, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to wield them. So Dio knew the hit was coming, and couldn’t shift his stand that’s already next to him like, 2 feet? A stand that has 3 feats of being at least as fast as star platinum? That is the evolution of the stand who is closest to star plat in speed? he was not busy fighting anyone. He punched Gers fist, and then Jotaro attacked him. He could have easily reacted to Jotaro. Its a plain inconsistency that he didn’t. Remember, he straight up blitzed Jotaro,someone comparable to him,and someone faster all at the same time.

You keep going to these red herrings. Him blitzing all three of them at once with his combat speed ISNT AN INFINITE SPEED FEAT. You are arguing he has infinite speed, how is him blitzing them with combat speed infinite speed? The only feat that is, is him reacting to GER's RTZ, stay on point. If you aren't bringing up infinite speed feats for Dio then it's irrelevant.

Also, him countering RTZ happened ONCE, SP tagged Dio OH twice as I've shown at the beginning of this thread. So by your own logic the infinite speed is an outlier.

"A stand that has 3 feats of being at least as fast as star platinum?" Haven't you not been reading what I've said:

"All I have to argue is that since Dio OH was busy fighting TA4 and GER, he was off guard so it gave SP the opportunity to tag him. You're arguing that he has infinite speed: the speed that allows him to react to characters like Jotaro in literally no time."

 

[StekFence]

You keep going to these red herrings. Him blitzing all three of them at once with his combat speed ISNT AN INFINITE SPEED FEAT. You are arguing he has infinite speed, how is him blitzing them with combat speed infinite speed? The only feat that is, is him reacting to GER's RTZ, stay on point. If you aren't bringing up infinite speed feats for Dio then it's irrelevant.

Also, him countering RTZ happened ONCE, SP tagged Dio OH twice as I've shown at the beginning of this thread. So by your own logic the infinite speed is an outlier.

"A stand that has 3 feats of being at least as fast as star platinum?" Haven't you not been reading what I've said:

"All I have to argue is that since Dio OH was busy fighting TA4 and GER, he was off guard so it gave SP the opportunity to tag him. You're arguing that he has infinite speed: the speed that allows him to react to characters like Jotaro in literally no time."

I’m not arguing for inf speed twoh, I’m neutral about that(sorry if I didnt make it clear). I’m just saying that sp tagging twoh under the circumstances is not consistent. Being off guard doesn’t even make sense, since he already knows he surrounded by enemies, the guy is charging right at him, yelling,slower, and it’s a very simple matter to move his stand over to block it.

 

[StrawManMan]

Dio Matched Ger. Dio Blocked Tusk 3 times. Dio Blitzed Johnny,Jotaro, and Giorno at the same time. And as you showed, dio indeed reacted to Jotaros hit. And stands are about as fast as the users reaction time, otherwise they wouldn’t be able to wield them. So Dio knew the hit was coming, and couldn’t shift his stand that’s already next to him like, 2 feet? A stand that has 3 feats of being at least as fast as star platinum? That is the evolution of the stand who is closest to star plat in speed? he was not busy fighting anyone. He punched Gers fist, and then Jotaro attacked him. He could have easily reacted to Jotaro. Its a plain inconsistency that he didn’t. Remember, he straight up blitzed Jotaro,someone comparable to him,and someone faster all at the same time.

Dio knew he was coming?

That's the face of a person that knew a hit was coming? In my opinion he looks surprised. Like, the preponderance of evidence is supporting my side once again. You say that he knew it was coming and that he wasn't busy yet there's no proof, in fact there's proof of the opposite.

 

[StekFence]

Dio knew he was coming?

That's the face of a person that knew a hit was coming? In my opinion he looks surprised. Like, the preponderance of evidence is supporting my side once again. You say that he knew it was coming and that he wasn't busy yet there's no proof, in fact there's proof of the opposite.

He already punched Giorno several seconds ago. Of course he should be expecting a hit. It’s an enemy running at him with a close range stand.
editn that note, I’m not gonna respond in this thread anymore, cos I realize I’ve been talking in a staff only thread Wayyyy too much.

 

[StrawManMan]

He already punched Giorno several seconds ago. Of course he should be expecting a hit. It’s an enemy running at him with a close range stand.
editn that note, I’m not gonna respond in this thread anymore, cos I realize I’ve been talking in a staff only thread Wayyyy too much.

Aight, cya man, but to address what you said, Feats > Your statements. I have the evidence of Dio being surprised that SP was coming to hit him. Your only counter is that he knew it was coming because... you said so tbh.

 

[Chariot190]

Dont know, not reading most of this atm, maybe later, only the OP, but put me down on indifferent, we've went through this before, and there's a bit on both ends. But I'm kinda in a different state atm, so I've been a bit inactive lately.

Though I will say that Plat tagging Dio is a kinda a nonargument, there's a high chance that Dio straight up didn't give a shit, surprised or not, as you said yourself he reacted (which mind you, he has likely infinite reactions. Not anything else, merely perception, doesn't mean he can move or anything at that speed, so him seeing it coming but failing to dodge wouldn't be a counter point eevn if he 100% absolutely couldn't dodge it no matter what he did), he just didn't dodge, but we know full well he could've done a dozen different things to avoid that punch if he wanted, even if he didn't dodge, he could've time stop, teleportation, and so on, yet choose not to despite several of his options being instantaneous and something he likely could have gotten done before Plat finished his blow. And to add on top of that, we see a second later he laughs and heals it confirming it wasn't ever even a issue, unlike GER and ACT 4 which were explicitly noted to be probably the only things that could contend with HA DIO and threaten him. Thus from it not mattering either way, idk man, I wouldn't pick that hill to die on.

Same with Josuke hyping up Plat, that isn't even a EOH thing, he does that a lot in the manga, for example against Yoshiro, he calls Plat invincible and tells Jotaro to beat him with the invincible Platinum, Josuke thinking Plat is invincible and saying as much is something that'd happen even if Plat WASNT the strongest Stand there, which it isn't, GER exceeds Plat's capabilities, even in EOH, at least till the very end of the game, but that Josuke statement takes place before Plat gets roided, so Josuke calling Plat invincible and unbeatable is demonstrably wrong, he's the second or third strongest Stand there at best and Josuke's bias skews his statement.
Plus DIO actually allowed himself to get beaten there and actively threw that fight, that way his enemies' could feel triumphant and win which would power them up and so once he used his power to take the souls from them, the souls would have more energy and power, he actually explains this, he was playing a long haul there. So even if Josuke went "Plat is unbeatable!", it doesn't mean much when we know Dio kinda let himself lose in that specific fight.

The Gio stuff is just the game being ass and not following and adhering to details in the manga despite it supposed to be following it (happens a few times), though, RTZ does act a tad funky compared to the manga canon, but that could just be video game stuff in the same vain how King Crimson visually functions completely different in every game, ASB, Gio, and EOH.

Though as I said, in the end whatever happens I'm indifferent on, if he keeps it, if he loses it, shrug. And with that I'm ghosting this for awhile.

 

[StrawManMan]

Dont know, not reading most of this atm, maybe later, only the OP, but put me down on indifferent, we've went through this before, and there's a bit on both ends. But I'm kinda in a different state atm, so I've been a bit inactive lately.

Though I will say that Plat tagging Dio is a kinda a nonargument, there's a high chance that Dio straight up didn't give a shit, surprised or not, as you said yourself he reacted (which mind you, he has likely infinite reactions. Not anything else, merely perception, doesn't mean he can move or anything at that speed, so him seeing it coming but failing to dodge wouldn't be a counter point eevn if he 100% absolutely couldn't dodge it no matter what he did), he just didn't dodge, but we know full well he could've done a dozen different things to avoid that punch if he wanted, even if he didn't dodge, he could've time stop, teleportation, and so on, yet choose not to despite several of his options being instantaneous and something he likely could have gotten done before Plat finished his blow. And to add on top of that, we see a second later he laughs and heals it confirming it wasn't ever even a issue, unlike GER and ACT 4 which were explicitly noted to be probably the only things that could contend with HA DIO and threaten him. Thus from it not mattering either way, idk man, I wouldn't pick that hill to die on.

Same with Josuke hyping up Plat, that isn't even a EOH thing, he does that a lot in the manga, for example against Yoshiro, he calls Plat invincible and tells Jotaro to beat him with the invincible Platinum, Josuke thinking Plat is invincible and saying as much is something that'd happen even if Plat WASNT the strongest Stand there, which it isn't, GER exceeds Plat's capabilities, even in EOH, at least till the very end of the game, but that Josuke statement takes place before Plat gets roided, so Josuke calling Plat invincible and unbeatable is demonstrably wrong, he's the second or third strongest Stand there at best and Josuke's bias skews his statement.
Plus DIO actually allowed himself to get beaten there and actively threw that fight, that way his enemies' could feel triumphant and win which would power them up and so once he used his power to take the souls from them, the souls would have more energy and power, he actually explains this, he was playing a long haul there. So even if Josuke went "Plat is unbeatable!", it doesn't mean much when we know Dio kinda let himself lose in that specific fight.

The Gio stuff is just the game being ass and not following and adhering to details in the manga despite it supposed to be following it (happens a few times), though, RTZ does act a tad funky compared to the manga canon, but that could just be video game stuff in the same vain how King Crimson visually functions completely different in every game, ASB, Gio, and EOH.

Though as I said, in the end whatever happens I'm indifferent on, if he keeps it, if he loses it, shrug. And with that I'm ghosting this for awhile.

I respect your opinion but as you said yourself, he was surprised that Jotaro was about to hit him. If he has supposedly infinite reaction speed and didn't care, why would he be surprised at a character he views as completely frozen? Even right after this, you can visibly see the pain in his face so it must've hurt him. Also, on the page, it says both infinite reaction speed, and speed in general:

"if he wanted, even if he didn't dodge, he could've time stop, teleportation, and so on, yet choose not to despite several of his options being instantaneous and something he likely could have gotten done before Plat finished his blow" That just indicates that he got speed blitzed by regular SP since he hit him before Dio used these abilites, you're pretty much saying he didn't care therefore he didn't avoid the attack and the evidence for this is that he would've avoided the attack if he cared. That's a bit of a circular argument, also, we even have visual evidence of him being shocked/surprised by SP punch. There's no indication that he allowed that punch to hit him. You say that he laughed it off, but thats only because he can instantly heal, he was still shocked and hurt by the punch, this doesn't change that fact.

For the Josuke point, I'm not saying that Jotaro is indeed invincible due to it (which I don't think you think I said) I'm saying it suggests that SP must've played a significant role within the fight or BARE MINIMUM prove that SP hit him once in the fight. It wouldn't even make sense, biased or not, for Josuke to talk that way about SP, would Jotaro just swing hits around, not touching his opponent a single time while GER and TA4 pretty much does all the work and Josuke view this as SP being invincible and not GER? Josuke isn't biased to the point that he'd blindlessly fanboy over Jotaro even when he's in a bad light.

"GER exceeds Plat's capabilities, even in EOH, at least till the very end of the game" GER only appears once in the game when Dio OH first appeared iirc so how would his capabilities exceed Plat's when the only feat he has is getting outreacted by Dio OH and then getting blitzed, while SP could hit him? Plus, I'm pretty sure it's stated by Valentine that SP is the only thing that stands a chance against Dio OH and not anyone else.

"Plus DIO actually allowed himself to get beaten there and actively threw that fight, that way his enemies' could feel triumphant and win which would power them up and so once he used his power to take the souls from them, the souls would have more energy and power, he actually explains this, he was playing a long haul there. So even if Josuke went "Plat is unbeatable!", it doesn't mean much when we know Dio kinda let himself lose in that specific fight." Based on what? Dio OH only states that due to their "pride and courage" that they were allowed to triumph over destiny and not that he allowed them to. There's nothing stating that he allowed them to beat him up.

"The Gio stuff is just the game being ass and not following and adhering to details in the manga despite it supposed to be following it (happens a few times), though, RTZ does act a tad funky compared to the manga canon" But if like you said, RTZ doesn't follow some details in the manga, why would we assume that the detail it still follows would be it's speed?

"that could just be video game stuff in the same vain how King Crimson visually functions completely different in every game, ASB, Gio, and EOH. " That's in regards to game mechanics though, I'm talking about the power scaling of the story and the way abilities work within the story, so that's kind of disanalogous.

 

[GroundX1]

Why are you having a problem with jotaro hitting Dio when it's in this game that jotaro is classified here as infinite speed?

 

[StrawManMan]

Why are you having a problem with jotaro hitting Dio when it's in this game that jotaro is classified here as infinite speed?

It's only noted that SPOH has infinite speed not SP.

 

[GiornoGiovannaF]

why is this thread in staff discussions ?

 

[Antvasima]

I moved this back to the content revisions forum. The subject is not important enough for the staff forum.

Anyway, @Eficiente , what are your conclusions here so far?

 

[Eficiente]

This is too clear and simple as I see it.

Johnny and Speedwagor reacted to this would-be infinite speed, Giorno ran at, reacted and talked at would-be infinite speed, SP blitzed DIO before he could use his would-be infinite reactions to control his stand do something, none of the cast reacts to that stand having that much speed, Valentine saw this fights with would-be infinite speed movements in it and plotted to have Jotaro defeat DIO with his stand due to them being alike. Later even Valentine fought DIO off-screen and their fight got moved into another dimension, implying it took some time, but granted one could say "DIO was going super easy on him", which isn't objective. Giorno knew how his stand works, which needs the assumption of it having told him that, and many other things are decharacterized or imprecise to what's shown in canon, like Valentine not knowing how many alt. worlds there are when in canon he knows there are infinite of them or Pucci's relationship with DIO being some parody.

With better team work from staff this would have been removed in a snap.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems uncontroversial to change then. You can probably do so if you wish.

 

[Eficiente]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Heaven_Ascension_DIO?diff=7417990&oldid=7409589

There it is, should be uncontroversial but I'll leave the thread open for a bit more.

 

[Chariot190]

Note: While DIO countered Gold Experience Requiem's Return to Zero, it's not clear if he nullified it before its activation, in the moment it was activated, or after it, and other characters and Stands could react to and match The World Over Heaven's speed, with Star Platinum even blitzing DIO once. Besides this, there were some slight impressions to the characters' canon information that may lead to this continuity's version of Gold Experience Requiem's Return to Zero not having Infinite speed.

You wanna explain this? Because this isn't gonna fly Efi.

Star Platinum never once blitzed Dio, unless you think Dio visibly reacting to Star Platinum going in for a punch is a blitz, which is one of the arguments being used in this very thread to discredit the speed, either he reacted or he got blitzed, it can't be both. Foregoing the fact if he was blitzed he otherwise he wouldn't have reacted in the first place, but that's without mentioning the fact Dio very clearly didn't bother doing anything even if he could, it's not inherently a speed a thing, we know he reacted to him, he just didn't do anything even though he had several options to avoid it, but why bother? he can just heal, not to mention we see Dio do the exact opposite to him later on and blitz Jotaro instead, meaning we're in a situation of blitz>blitz>blitz according to you, needless to say there's an issue there, Star Platinum never ***** with TWOH itself before end game so that doesn't even help with TWOH's rating only DIO's, so you have an issue there as well.

And the last bit is complete bullshit, remove it.
You can't take slight discrepancies between the game and manga for completely unrelated topics and extrapolate that to mean RTZ works any differently than it does in the manga, ESPECIALLY when everything RTZ did in the manga also happened within EOH's canon. Gio knowing some shit he shouldn't doesn't magically make the abilities function differently. That isn't how it works Efi. It's basically as relevant as going Jolyne somehow knew some shit she shouldn't, so that means Stone Free's string ability works differently. Obviously it works the same and is intended to be the exact same, literally NOTHING in the character's actions that would "lead" to implications of it functioning differently, not a single one.

I don't give a damn if you remove infinite speed, personally I found it super flimsy to begin with and Strym doesn't wanna bother with this so you're not gonna have much opposition, but the reasoning and the note isn't helping, it's just painting a false picture and spreading misinfo. Removing something is one thing, but removing it for reasoning that's more faulty then the thing being removed is even worse.

 

[Eficiente]

If you take blitz strictly as not seeing the attack coming rather than maybe seeing it coming but be unable to react in time to do anything about it, then yes it's not a blitz, I'll change the wording. There is no "Dio very clearly didn't bother doing anything even if he could" [react], that's not a logical presumption to make.

RTZ having technically happened in the game like it did in the manga doesn't matter as that having infinite speed comes by adding up the manga+some guide, it's not the clearest thing as you don't just see it and know it has infinite speed, you need to see it+understand what the heck is going on+know MiH+know that guide having stated that, so yes I do see discrepancies to random, simpler things from the manga itself having been wrong leading to RTZ not having infinite speed under the premise of that ability and TWOH in general having matched themselves in speed, it would more easily make one conclude that they got that wrong. It's not 100% necessary for that last part to be there, but I do see it reasonably contributing.