Dio Over Heaven Downgrade

[Chariot190]

There is no "Dio very clearly didn't bother doing anything even if he could" [react], that's not a logical presumption to make.

Neither is the vast majority of what you're presuming yet here you are. Need I remind you that Dio can instantly heal all wounds? He doesn't need to dodge if he doesn't want to. And he even lets himself get ragdolled later on because he can heal so it has future evidence. But this doesn't matter much.

RTZ having technically happened in the game like it did in the manga doesn't matter as that having infinite speed comes by adding up the manga+some guide,

Partially true, the guide just adds further context to what happened or what already exists in the manga, it doesn't make up completely new information, it clarifies stuff that happened in both EOH and the manga, the details might be new but the details are of that which already existed, the reason it has infinite speed in the manga is the same as it acts in EOH, all the guide does is clarify information that exists in both canons, nothing more, nothing less. And it coming from a guide is a moot point anyway, Araki wrote one guide immediately after the events of Part 5 and the following came out not long before EOH did, probably a few months before start of development if I had to guess, either way, the intent is the same between both in that RTZ and GER is straight up just meant to be how he is in canon. If that same manga events happened precisely as it did in EOH as it did in the manga. It means it's the exact same. Don't pretend it isn't.

it's not the clearest thing as you don't just see it and know it has infinite speed, you need to see it+understand what the heck is going on+know MiH+know that guide having stated that,

Having to see how something works and knowing how it works to draw a conclusion on it, kinda goes for anything Efi. Knowing MIH is kinda a moot point, given MIH exists in EOH, and EOH came out after JoJoveller/JoJo-a-GoGo, so whatever info they brought to the table, applies all the same.

Needing to know how a complex ability works and details on it doesn't mean that a game that features it doesn't work off the same info or, ya know, how it's intended to work. That doesn't magically make EOH's RTZ ******* different, because guess what? All of that applies to it too. It not being the most obvious thing ever doesn't change how it works, it still works the same, because it IS the same, trying to come out some sort of argument as to why a bunch of shit somehow doesn't apply to EOH is simply false, EOH works and uses the manga (hell it even uses panels from the GER arc in a recap) and all other known canon information as the basis, they're the exact same characters, everything that happened in canon happened in EOH, everything works the same way, everything acts the same way. For example, The World has enhanced senses much like Star Platinum, but this is only stated in JoJo-a-GoGo that TW has the same extreme precision and senses as Plat, but this statement in the guide just clarifies and contextualizes things that also exist in the manga. Are we going to assume EOH TW doesn't have those same enhances senses? No, because he clearly does, he's the same as canon TW, everything he can do, EOH TW can do, all canonical information that came out before 2014-5 applies to him, if it's apart of the manga canon, it's apart of EOH's canon, even if not the other way around. That's the same with RTZ, or like a dozen other things, Plat's super inhale is stated to be due to his immense physical prowess heightening even that, but we're only given the explanation in a guide, but that information only exists to clarify canon events and powers and how they work, are we going to pretend we don't know how EOH Plat's super breath works (it's even a move he has so it's doubly notable), of course not, we know how it works because a canon guide that predates it told us.

so yes I do see discrepancies to random, simpler things from the manga itself having been wrong leading to RTZ not having infinite speed under the premise of that ability and TWOH in general having matched themselves in speed,

You see minor discrepancies, none of which actually involve abilities funnily enough. Every difference you can think and list off is a character one, like Gio knowing what RTZ does, but in the manga he doesn't know. Or the whole shit with D4C (kinda can't blame them on that one though, game is built on that as a premise), or Pucci and Dio being weird. That's a difference sure, but that means what exactly in relation to how his Stand and ability functions? What? Do you think base GE works differently too for the same reason? Of course not, why WOULD you assume GE work differently, we have no reason to assume his powers work odd compared to the manga. But that's the exact same line of reasoning you're following, the answer is no, because that'd be wrong for thinking that. Everything is how it is in canon unless proven otherwise, you don't to leap to conclusions based on extremely flimsy barely related, if at all, plot holes or **** ups to use as an argument, because it isn't an argument, it's simply spreading false information and painting a false narrative to support your conclusion, instead of trying to do shit like that, why not just go with the far more simple approach? I'll give you a simpler way to get rid of infinite speed Dio, just go with the far more likely answer of Dio didn't react to RTZ the exact infinitesimal moment of, RTZ can (and still does) work the way it does in canon, because of course, it does, the fault is just on Dio's end of not doing what he's proposed to have done. Hell, we already know he can power null on contact and have effects of RO take effect when needed instead of right away as he touches, and Gio does state that he for sure knew he tried to use RTZ but nothing happened, kinda implying he never got it off to begin with, implying that perhaps, Dio was just faster on the draw and did so before Gio opted to RTZ in the first place.

it would more easily make one conclude that they got that wrong. It's not 100% necessary for that last part to be there, but I do see it reasonably contributing.

I don't, in fact I hate it, no offense to you but it comes off as making up an excuse as to why Dio can't scale to it by putting the blame on RTZ or saying things work differently in EOH, the simple fact is, they don't, it's the same, RTZ in EOH by all accounts and purposes would have the same speed as canon. It's not needed. You can get rid of infinite speed, (Though for TWOH, adding his feat of blitzing Jotaro and Plat should probably be added as well just for completion), but I'm not gonna have the reason for it being removed to be false either, two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[StrawManMan]

Neither is the vast majority of what you're presuming yet here you are. Need I remind you that Dio can instantly heal all wounds? He doesn't need to dodge if he doesn't want to. And he even lets himself get ragdolled later on because he can heal so it has future evidence. But this doesn't matter much.



Partially true, the guide just adds further context to what happened or what already exists in the manga, it doesn't make up completely new information, it clarifies stuff that happened in both EOH and the manga, the details might be new but the details are of that which already existed, the reason it has infinite speed in the manga is the same as it acts in EOH, all the guide does is clarify information that exists in both canons, nothing more, nothing less. And it coming from a guide is a moot point anyway, Araki wrote one guide immediately after the events of Part 5 and the following came out not long before EOH did, probably a few months before start of development if I had to guess, either way, the intent is the same between both in that RTZ and GER is straight up just meant to be how he is in canon. If that same manga events happened precisely as it did in EOH as it did in the manga. It means it's the exact same. Don't pretend it isn't.



Having to see how something works and knowing how it works to draw a conclusion on it, kinda goes for anything Efi. Knowing MIH is kinda a moot point, given MIH exists in EOH, and EOH came out after JoJoveller/JoJo-a-GoGo, so whatever info they brought to the table, applies all the same.

Needing to know how a complex ability works and details on it doesn't mean that a game that features it doesn't work off the same info or, ya know, how it's intended to work. That doesn't magically make EOH's RTZ ******* different, because guess what? All of that applies to it too. It not being the most obvious thing ever doesn't change how it works, it still works the same, because it IS the same, trying to come out some sort of argument as to why a bunch of shit somehow doesn't apply to EOH is simply false, EOH works and uses the manga (hell it even uses panels from the GER arc in a recap) and all other known canon information as the basis, they're the exact same characters, everything that happened in canon happened in EOH, everything works the same way, everything acts the same way. For example, The World has enhanced senses much like Star Platinum, but this is only stated in JoJo-a-GoGo that TW has the same extreme precision and senses as Plat, but this statement in the guide just clarifies and contextualizes things that also exist in the manga. Are we going to assume EOH TW doesn't have those same enhances senses? No, because he clearly does, he's the same as canon TW, everything he can do, EOH TW can do, all canonical information that came out before 2014-5 applies to him, if it's apart of the manga canon, it's apart of EOH's canon, even if not the other way around. That's the same with RTZ, or like a dozen other things, Plat's super inhale is stated to be due to his immense physical prowess heightening even that, but we're only given the explanation in a guide, but that information only exists to clarify canon events and powers and how they work, are we going to pretend we don't know how EOH Plat's super breath works (it's even a move he has so it's doubly notable), of course not, we know how it works because a canon guide that predates it told us.



You see minor discrepancies, none of which actually involve abilities funnily enough. Every difference you can think and list off is a character one, like Gio knowing what RTZ does, but in the manga he doesn't know. Or the whole shit with D4C (kinda can't blame them on that one though, game is built on that as a premise), or Pucci and Dio being weird. That's a difference sure, but that means what exactly in relation to how his Stand and ability functions? What? Do you think base GE works differently too for the same reason? Of course not, why WOULD you assume GE work differently, we have no reason to assume his powers work odd compared to the manga. But that's the exact same line of reasoning you're following, the answer is no, because that'd be wrong for thinking that. Everything is how it is in canon unless proven otherwise, you don't to leap to conclusions based on extremely flimsy barely related, if at all, plot holes or **** ups to use as an argument, because it isn't an argument, it's simply spreading false information and painting a false narrative to support your conclusion, instead of trying to do shit like that, why not just go with the far more simple approach? I'll give you a simpler way to get rid of infinite speed Dio, just go with the far more likely answer of Dio didn't react to RTZ the exact infinitesimal moment of, RTZ can (and still does) work the way it does in canon, because of course, it does, the fault is just on Dio's end of not doing what he's proposed to have done. Hell, we already know he can power null on contact and have effects of RO take effect when needed instead of right away as he touches, and Gio does state that he for sure knew he tried to use RTZ but nothing happened, kinda implying he never got it off to begin with, implying that perhaps, Dio was just faster on the draw and did so before Gio opted to RTZ in the first place.



I don't, in fact I hate it, no offense to you but it comes off as making up an excuse as to why Dio can't scale to it by putting the blame on RTZ or saying things work differently in EOH, the simple fact is, they don't, it's the same, RTZ in EOH by all accounts and purposes would have the same speed as canon. It's not needed. You can get rid of infinite speed, (Though for TWOH, adding his feat of blitzing Jotaro and Plat should probably be added as well just for completion), but I'm not gonna have the reason for it being removed to be false either, two wrongs don't make a right.2

" And it coming from a guide is a moot point anyway, Araki wrote one guide immediately after the events of Part 5 and the following came out not long before EOH did, probably a few months before start of development if I had to guess, either way, the intent is the same between both in that RTZ and GER is straight up just meant to be how he is in canon. If that same manga events happened precisely as it did in EOH as it did in the manga. It means it's the exact same. Don't pretend it isn't." But you even agreed that the game doesn't adhere to details from the main canon when it comes to GER. The JOJO A GOGO guide that the wiki refers to came out in 2000 and EOH came out in 2015. If the game developers couldn't even follow details from the main canon why would we assume that they would implement details such as RTZ being infinite speed from a 15 year old guidebook which also requires the connection of MIH's infinite speed stat to GER's "ability surpasses all existing stands" statement?

At the end of the day, when it comes to the argument against infinite speed DIO OH, all you have to assume is that GER's RTZ speed is different based on the fact that RTZ functions differently and then work from there, whereas for the DIO OH infinite speed argument, even on a neutral stance, you have to assume that any time DIO OH gets tagged by a finite speed character in the game its only because he didn't care enough to dodge simply because he can heal wounds even though that's never stated by the game summary nor Dio. You also have to assume that GER's RTZ functioning differently is the game being and I quote "ass" and that the speed is still infinite. You also have to assume that the one time DIO OH was shown being surprised from a supposedly infinitely slow SP isn't somewhat contradictory and that he can activate abilities such as teleportation, time stop etc instantly so he could've dodged it with those if he wanted to even though again never stated that he can activate them instantly.

 

[Eficiente]

I changed it, I don't really have the energy to reply to that last comment and removing that last part or not was minor anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Are Eficiente's changes acceptable to you, @Chariot190 ?

Also, I moved the footnote to a better position in the relevant page:

Heaven Ascension DIO

Heaven Ascension DIO is the main antagonist of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven. In an alternate timeline outside of the canon series, DIO is successful in killing the Joestars. He then proceeds with his plan of achieving Heaven and unlocks godly powers with his new Stand: The World Over...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Chariot190]

>At the end of the day, when it comes to the argument against infinite speed DIO OH, all you have to assume is that GER's RTZ speed is different based on the fact that RTZ functions differently and then work from there

That's the thing, you don't, both of you are overcomplicating this. Instead of assuming RTZ magically functions differently (it doesn't, stop pretending it does), all you have to assume is that HA DIO never reacted to it in the first place.

, whereas for the DIO OH infinite speed argument, even on a neutral stance, you have to assume that any time DIO OH gets tagged by a finite speed character in the game its only because he didn't care enough to dodge simply because he can heal wounds even though that's never stated by the game summary nor Dio.

No but it can be easily inferred, especially when he know he threw a fight later on. Though that doesn't help much either, because he only has reactions of that caliber, not combat speed.

You also have to assume that GER's RTZ functioning differently is the game being and I quote "ass" and that the speed is still infinite.

It doesn't even function differently, that's the issue lad, both you and Efi are assuming it works differently, it doesn't, it works the same. The only time it works slightly off is in gameplay, which you yourself said doesn't count basically, meaning, restricting it to just statements and cutscenes, for all intents and purposes, we see it work exactly the same, ergo, it does, it's really, really, not this hard.

You also have to assume that the one time DIO OH was shown being surprised from a supposedly infinitely slow SP isn't somewhat contradictory

The fact that he can react to him at all makes this whole point moot and the fact he can react to the far faster GER (as in just GER itself physically), kinda renders this point invalid, if he can react to GER and if he reacted to Plat, then him being "surprised" means **** all, especially when you don't even know WHY he was surprised, it could be for numerous reasons, you're just assuming it's because speed or something, when that isn't inherently the case.

and that he can activate abilities such as teleportation, time stop etc instantly so he could've dodged it with those if he wanted to even though again never stated that he can activate them instantly.

What? That's just something he can do normally lad, time stop is thought based and activates instantly, if he reacted to plat at all, which he did given your argument is built on the fact that he did indeed react but failed to dodge, it also means he could have stopped time with zero risk to avoid the punch if he wanted, as time stop, in all cases, happens instantly. In fact, HA DIO is scripted to use time stop in the fights if you juggle his ass to get himself out of comboes, he can and will use time stop to escape blows if he feels the need.

Also because you replied.

Based on what? Dio OH states that due to their "pride and courage" that they were allowed to triumph over destiny and not that he allowed them to. There's nothing stating that he allowed them to beat him up.

Based on his plan? It takes tremendous amount of soul energy to overwrite reality. He wanted them at their best, and he set it up so that they'd hit that max potential. His goal wasn't to win there, and that's made abundantly obvious, he had an overarching plan lad.

And most notably, in that very fight where Josuke states that, Dio right before the fight states for them to come at him and he's going to "play with them", and as soon as it ends and immediately after Josuke says that, Dio heals himself, gets up completely fine, and then asks nonchantaly if they're not gonna throw any more attacks or if he can just go ahead and finish it now. Making it pretty clear he wasn't taking it seriously.

This means Dio was straight up was ******* around, he went into the fight with the intent of ******* around, and as it ended he just brushed himself off and was like "oh, you're done already?". If Dio was actively ******* around, and then even makes mention of them and their attacks asking if they wanna throw more or whatever, it's kinda safe to say any scaling going on there is flimsy at best. He does that though with the eventual goal to get them into position to split them up to different points in time and universes, that way, they can defeat foes and overcome the trials laid before them, doing so will have the souls hit maximum potential, and once they do so, he will take the amped souls and corpse to power himself so he can overwrite reality.

This is his whole plan, it's set up earlier in the game, and he plays on it. Of course he doesn't say "lol i threw the fight", but we know he did, he makes it 100% clear he wasn't fighting seriously, and we know due to him having an ulterior motive that requires them all to be alive and fine that he never planned on winning in that specific instance to get that roided out soul power instead. And he actively waited till the perfect time, and once everything aligned, he simply took them all out with BFR soul hax stuff to amp himself. To make this as simple as possible to understand.

Let the Joestar group gather 36 allies (Funny included). (Dio states this is all that matters and Pucci states that Dio's plans going the way he said as well).

Gather them all in one place (Cairo).

Engage them (To set up the next step of the plan, fights without the intent to defeat them there and states he's going to toy with them).

In the midst of the fight, strike Coco Jumbo without anyone noticing, corrupting the allies all at once and giving the main group an ultimatum in order to save them. (The fact Dio did this before the fight even ended, in the midst of it, tells us he planned this from the get go and this plan didn't happen after he "lost", but was something he was trying to do ahead of time).

The main group then splits up, Jotaro asks what Dio's plan is and Dio laughs him off and says he shouldn't be worried about that. (Meaning he, of course, had a plan, he set this up before hand while they "fought").

The allies split up to different times and spaces to save the allies. Which they do.

Gio gets suspicious and picks up on the fact Dio had a other goal in mind here, "Gio: I just can't figure it out... Why would Dio make us do all this? At first I thought it was to split us up but... Now I wonder if his goal wasn't just to make us fight"

And then everyone gets sent to Dio's world and gets soul ******.

Dio right after that: In order to overwrite reality - I need an enormous amount of soul energy - (He thinks this to himself, he isn't gloating, he isn't being hyperbolic, he's actually thinking about it, this is face value, he isn't acting like he often does).

He then states what you posted to Jotaro and Jolyne, he laughs and then claims that their pride and courage allowed them to triumph over destiny, however the moment they did so their soul reached it's maximum potential.

He then states the time is ripe, before absorbing the corpse and the souls.

Dio wanted this to happen. This was his plan, his end goal was for them to have the souls hit peak power, he set them up, yes, of course, their own pride and courage allowed them to pull it off, I mean, if they didn't they'd just get killed off by the turned allies or fail, but Dio set them up all the same, he didn't stop them, he wanted that to happen, Jotaro knew he was up to some shit and made it clear he knew and Dio laughed him off. Dio made sure to set it up ahead of time so they could do that shit in the middle of the supposed fight and Gio even picks up on it Dio's shit but he picked up on it to late to do anything about it. Dio most certainly let them win lad, unless you think Dio was going all out and wanted them to die despite saying he was gonna play with them, set up the plan before the fight even ended confirming he had ulterior motives, both Jotaro before they split up and Gio at the end both picking up on the fact Dio had some hidden goal in mind with Dio all but confirming when Jotaro asked he had an ulterior motive, and that goal being confirmed to be having them triumph only so the souls hit maximum power so his own power could be heighted even further as Dio monologues how he needs a **** ton of soul energy a literal second before explaining that the souls hit max power, in which he states that NOW is the time to take the souls (not before, not after, he deliberately waited till now).

So yes. I'm saying Dio threw that fight, because he did, I'm surprised I even had to spell it out actually, I thought this would be something obvious given it's a critical part of the plot and his goals he had there.

He might not say "I threw that fight" directly, but he 100% did, the narrative essentially confirms he did, and if he wasn't throwing then he'd be actively going against his own goals and plan he had in mind, which would make zero sense, what if he accidentally killed someone? He'd be ****** (And we know damn well he can easily kill the majority, Jolyne for example is actual fodder to him and he can defeat with just one strike. And when you couple that with the fact he flat out states he's merely gonna play with them for awhile, and once all is said and done he's not worried, concerned or troubled, he's nonchalant, I'm inclined to believe that yes, he was just toying with them.

 

[Chariot190]

Are Eficiente's changes acceptable to you, @Chariot190 ?

Also, I move the footnote to a better position in the relevant page:

Heaven Ascension DIO

Heaven Ascension DIO is the main antagonist of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven. In an alternate timeline outside of the canon series, DIO is successful in killing the Joestars. He then proceeds with his plan of achieving Heaven and unlocks godly powers with his new Stand: The World Over...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Star Platinum failing to avoid the blow is still a bit odd, given that doesn't actually help the case, his Stand wasn't out to defend him in the first place and Dio himself never had infinite combat speed (Plus as we see later, Dio can actually blitz Star Platinum if he wants to, and does exactly that).
Honestly just saying the first bit, and just noting how him having infinite speed is extremely contradictory to all his other showings within the game is a lot simpler without needing to rely on subjective interpretation of various interactions "well he could've done that or he couldn't have done that".

If we need an actual explicit example I could probably find one that's 100% objective him failing to react or do something in a situation we know he 100% wanted to or would've.

 

[Nierre]

Chariot back at it again with the massive block of texts lol

Would it be too much work to ask for a tl;dr?

 

[Chariot190]

Don't extrapolate unrelated information to say something is different when it really isn't and for all intents and purposes works the exact same way.

The narrative and Dio's ulterior motives confirm he held back in a specific instance within the story,

Dio dodging or not dodging a specific punch is vague, especially as he did indeed react to it, why he didn't dodge is subject to interpretation thus isn't a solid argument, especially when he wouldn't even need to dodge to avoid it if he really wanted to.

All of the arguments in this thread are kinda moot to begin with, when really, instead of trying to take vague, sometimes even wrong or out of context things to explain why Dio can't be infinite, it's a lot more logical and straightforward to just assume the feat that gave him infinite in the first place didn't actually transpire in the super specific way that it would need to in order to give him such a speed, as any other way but that specific way would just grant him his usual speed.

 

[StrawManMan]

That's the thing, you don't, both of you are overcomplicating this. Instead of assuming RTZ magically functions differently (it doesn't, stop pretending it does), all you have to assume is that HA DIO never reacted to it in the first place.



No but it can be easily inferred, especially when he know he threw a fight later on. Though that doesn't help much either, because he only has reactions of that caliber, not combat speed.



It doesn't even function differently, that's the issue lad, both you and Efi are assuming it works differently, it doesn't, it works the same. The only time it works slightly off is in gameplay, which you yourself said doesn't count basically, meaning, restricting it to just statements and cutscenes, for all intents and purposes, we see it work exactly the same, ergo, it does, it's really, really, not this hard.



The fact that he can react to him at all makes this whole point moot and the fact he can react to the far faster GER (as in just GER itself physically), kinda renders this point invalid, if he can react to GER and if he reacted to Plat, then him being "surprised" means **** all, especially when you don't even know WHY he was surprised, it could be for numerous reasons, you're just assuming it's because speed or something, when that isn't inherently the case.



What? That's just something he can do normally lad, time stop is thought based and activates instantly, if he reacted to plat at all, which he did given your argument is built on the fact that he did indeed react but failed to dodge, it also means he could have stopped time with zero risk to avoid the punch if he wanted, as time stop, in all cases, happens instantly. In fact, HA DIO is scripted to use time stop in the fights if you juggle his ass to get himself out of comboes, he can and will use time stop to escape blows if he feels the need.

Also because you replied.



Based on his plan? It takes tremendous amount of soul energy to overwrite reality. He wanted them at their best, and he set it up so that they'd hit that max potential. His goal wasn't to win there, and that's made abundantly obvious, he had an overarching plan lad.

And most notably, in that very fight where Josuke states that, Dio right before the fight states for them to come at him and he's going to "play with them", and as soon as it ends and immediately after Josuke says that, Dio heals himself, gets up completely fine, and then asks nonchantaly if they're not gonna throw any more attacks or if he can just go ahead and finish it now. Making it pretty clear he wasn't taking it seriously.

This means Dio was straight up was ******* around, he went into the fight with the intent of ******* around, and as it ended he just brushed himself off and was like "oh, you're done already?". If Dio was actively ******* around, and then even makes mention of them and their attacks asking if they wanna throw more or whatever, it's kinda safe to say any scaling going on there is flimsy at best. He does that though with the eventual goal to get them into position to split them up to different points in time and universes, that way, they can defeat foes and overcome the trials laid before them, doing so will have the souls hit maximum potential, and once they do so, he will take the amped souls and corpse to power himself so he can overwrite reality.

This is his whole plan, it's set up earlier in the game, and he plays on it. Of course he doesn't say "lol i threw the fight", but we know he did, he makes it 100% clear he wasn't fighting seriously, and we know due to him having an ulterior motive that requires them all to be alive and fine that he never planned on winning in that specific instance to get that roided out soul power instead. And he actively waited till the perfect time, and once everything aligned, he simply took them all out with BFR soul hax stuff to amp himself. To make this as simple as possible to understand.

Let the Joestar group gather 36 allies (Funny included). (Dio states this is all that matters and Pucci states that Dio's plans going the way he said as well).

Gather them all in one place (Cairo).

Engage them (To set up the next step of the plan, fights without the intent to defeat them there and states he's going to toy with them).

In the midst of the fight, strike Coco Jumbo without anyone noticing, corrupting the allies all at once and giving the main group an ultimatum in order to save them. (The fact Dio did this before the fight even ended, in the midst of it, tells us he planned this from the get go and this plan didn't happen after he "lost", but was something he was trying to do ahead of time).

The main group then splits up, Jotaro asks what Dio's plan is and Dio laughs him off and says he shouldn't be worried about that. (Meaning he, of course, had a plan, he set this up before hand while they "fought").

The allies split up to different times and spaces to save the allies. Which they do.

Gio gets suspicious and picks up on the fact Dio had a other goal in mind here, "Gio: I just can't figure it out... Why would Dio make us do all this? At first I thought it was to split us up but... Now I wonder if his goal wasn't just to make us fight"

And then everyone gets sent to Dio's world and gets soul ******.
Dio right after that: In order to overwrite reality - I need an enormous amount of soul energy - (He thinks this to himself, he isn't gloating, he isn't being hyperbolic, he's actually thinking about it, this is face value, he isn't acting like he often does).

He then states what you posted to Jotaro and Jolyne, he laughs and then claims that their pride and courage allowed them to triumph over destiny, however the moment they did so their soul reached it's maximum potential.

He then states the time is ripe, before absorbing the corpse and the souls.

Dio wanted this to happen. This was his plan, his end goal was for them to have the souls hit peak power, he set them up, yes, of course, their own pride and courage allowed them to pull it off, I mean, if they didn't they'd just get killed off by the turned allies or fail, but Dio set them up all the same, he didn't stop them, he wanted that to happen, Jotaro knew he was up to some shit and made it clear he knew and Dio laughed him off. Dio made sure to set it up ahead of time so they could do that shit in the middle of the supposed fight and Gio even picks up on it Dio's shit but he picked up on it to late to do anything about it. Dio most certainly let them win lad, unless you think Dio was going all out and wanted them to die despite saying he was gonna play with them, set up the plan before the fight even ended confirming he had ulterior motives, both Jotaro before they split up and Gio at the end both picking up on the fact Dio had some hidden goal in mind with Dio all but confirming when Jotaro asked he had an ulterior motive, and that goal being confirmed to be having them triumph only so the souls hit maximum power so his own power could be heighted even further as Dio monologues how he needs a **** ton of soul energy a literal second before explaining that the souls hit max power, in which he states that NOW is the time to take the souls (not before, not after, he deliberately waited till now).

So yes. I'm saying Dio threw that fight, because he did, I'm surprised I even had to spell it out actually, I thought this would be something obvious given it's a critical part of the plot and his goals he had there.

He might not say "I threw that fight" directly, but he 100% did, the narrative essentially confirms he did, and if he wasn't throwing then he'd be actively going against his own goals and plan he had in mind, which would make zero sense, what if he accidentally killed someone? He'd be ****** (And we know damn well he can easily kill the majority, Jolyne for example is actual fodder to him and he can defeat with just one strike. And when you couple that with the fact he flat out states he's merely gonna play with them for awhile, and once all is said and done he's not worried, concerned or troubled, he's nonchalant, I'm inclined to believe that yes, he was just toying with them.

"That's the thing, you don't, both of you are overcomplicating this. Instead of assuming RTZ magically functions differently (it doesn't, stop pretending it does), all you have to assume is that HA DIO never reacted to it in the first place." But I thought you agreed that it worked a bit differently from the main canon, if not then I might have misread your reply. Also wdym by never reacting to it, are you referring to RTZ? If so, does that mean you find Dio OH not having infinite speed valid or are you just giving ways on how to better attack the infinite speed Dio argument?

"No but it can be easily inferred, especially when he know he threw a fight later on. Though that doesn't help much either, because he only has reactions of that caliber, not combat speed." The opposite can be inferred too, that he went all out but the Joestars working together overpowered him. ? But the wiki had BOTH infinite reaction speed and speed in general listed previously that's the reason why I made this thread so yes it does help my case.

"It doesn't even function differently, that's the issue lad, both you and Efi are assuming it works differently, it doesn't, it works the same. The only time it works slightly off is in gameplay, which you yourself said doesn't count basically, meaning, restricting it to just statements and cutscenes, for all intents and purposes, we see it work exactly the same" Not it doesn't. The only instance we see RTZ being used in the story is when Giorno fights Dio OH and in that fight Giorno needs to have direct contact before saying "you'll never reach the truth" to activate it which was never the case in the main canon.

"The fact that he can react to him at all makes this whole point moot and the fact he can react to the far faster GER (as in just GER itself physically), kinda renders this point invalid, if he can react to GER and if he reacted to Plat, then him being "surprised" means **** all, especially when you don't even know WHY he was surprised, it could be for numerous reasons, you're just assuming it's because speed or something, when that isn't inherently the case." How is GER faster physically than SP? Also, sure Dio reacted, but he reacted in a way of surprise, just because you can see an object coming towards you doesn't always mean that you dodge it; it all depends at which the timeframe you see it/how fast it is travelling. And don't see how him being surprised doesn't mean anything, for the infinite speed argument to work you'd have to say that Dio is surprised by attacks that are moving infinitely slow. Plus why would it not be SP's punch that he shocked about? We see Jotaro run straight up to Dio being the only thing in his field of vision with the next frame showing his incoming punch towards Dio OH's head. To say that the thing that made Dio surprised wasn't SP's punch when we it's the only thing in his field of vision seems like a MASSIVE leap in logic.

"that's just something he can do normally lad, time stop is thought based and activates instantly, if he reacted to plat at all, which he did given your argument is built on the fact that he did indeed react but failed to dodge, it also means he could have stopped time with zero risk to avoid the punch if he wanted, as time stop, in all cases, happens instantly. In fact, HA DIO is scripted to use time stop in the fights if you juggle his ass to get himself out of comboes, he can and will use time stop to escape blows if he feels the need." If it's thought based then it requires time to be used. When I said instant I meant as in 0 time at all. If that's the case it can be easily argued that SP punched him before he thought of using TS which would be supported by the surprise on his face. In fact this scene is similar to the scene in part 3 when Dio sees SP's punch coming towards him after Jotaro pretended to be dead and failing to TS or dodge in time.

"And most notably, in that very fight where Josuke states that, Dio right before the fight states for them to come at him and he's going to "play with them", and as soon as it ends and immediately after Josuke says that, Dio heals himself, gets up completely fine, and then asks nonchantaly if they're not gonna throw any more attacks or if he can just go ahead and finish it now. Making it pretty clear he wasn't taking it seriously." It can easily be interpreted as Dio being cocky since it's in his character to be.

"Dio most certainly let them win lad, unless you think Dio was going all out and wanted them to die despite saying he was gonna play with them" Again, you could just argue that the combined forces of the Joestars requires him to go all out. He can still go all out and have his plans accomplished plus he literally says right after all of this that he figured he'd HAVE TO use his final form to beat Jotaro.

Why would he HAVE TO use his final form on Jotaro if he could have easily used his infinite reaction and speed (again, the wiki had both infinite reaction speed and speed on Dio OH's page) to beat him? It makes things even less consistent.

"he'd be actively going against his own goals and plan he had in mind, which would make zero sense, what if he accidentally killed someone? He'd be ****** (And we know damn well he can easily kill the majority, Jolyne for example is actual fodder to him and he can defeat with just one strike. And when you couple that with the fact he flat out states he's merely gonna play with them for awhile, and once all is said and done he's not worried, concerned or troubled, he's nonchalant, I'm inclined to believe that yes, he was just toying with them." For one, that was amped Dio punching Jolyne which wouldn't contradict anything and two, like I said you can argue that the combined forces of the Joestars requires him to go all out. Even if I steelman your argument, at the bare minimum he should've went all out against Jotaro since he was going to erase his existence anyway. But he didn't which infers that he did in fact need to go all out.

 

[Antvasima]

Chariot190:

So what do you more specifically think should be changed in Dio's page and its footnote currently?

 

[Chariot190]

But I thought you agreed that it worked a bit differently from the main canon, if not then I might have misread your reply. Also wdym by never reacting to it, are you referring to RTZ? If so, does that mean you find Dio OH not having infinite speed valid or are you just giving ways on how to better attack the infinite speed Dio argument?

Not quite what Iwas getting at (I even clarified what I meant a handful of posts back), I said he activated it a bit oddly from how he usually does in the main canon, that's it, nothing more, nothing less, and it's something he CAN do in the main canon as well, hence why it's a semi-automatic ability, not purely automatic. RTZ isn't the problem, and it sure as hell isn't any different in the way it functions, pretending it is is complete conjecture, drop it, it's not gonna fly here.
I don't find Infinite valid, no, I don't think he has Infinite speed, but that isn't RTZ's fault, RTZ in EOH for all intents and purposes has that same Infinite speed, the issue doesn't lie in RTZ, it lies in the "feat" that granted DIO Infinite speed in the first place not actually being a feat where he matches RTZ in speed.

The opposite can be inferred too, that he went all out but the Joestars working together overpowered him. ? But the wiki had BOTH infinite reaction speed and speed in general listed previously that's the reason why I made this thread so yes it does help my case.

It can't really, he never intended to defeat them, went into it saying he was ******* around, and when the match was over he nonchalantly got up, wasn't the least bit worried and even said he could've ended it then and there, if he was truly getting his ass kicked, he wouldn't of acted that way, ego or not, Dio panics when he's actually backed into a corner or thinks aren't going how he wants. It's made hilariously obvious in that fight he was ******* around, everything suggests as much. I'm honestly baffled you're debating this given it's a critical part of the plot.
And no, you misunderstand how this works, Dio ONLY was listed with Infinite reaction speed, REACTION, as in, he can perceive stuff, but it doesn't mean he can move or dodge or whatever at that speed. The thing that is listed as possibly being flat out Infinite is THE WORLD, not Dio himself, there's a tremendous difference there. It doesn't help your case as there's a clear misunderstanding on what's being rated what, TWOH and DIO have two different speed ratings lad. You're conflating them as one and the same.

Not it doesn't. The only instance we see RTZ being used in the story is when Giorno fights Dio OH and in that fight Giorno needs to have direct contact before saying "you'll never reach the truth" to activate it which was never the case in the main canon.

Again, false, him having direct contact and him NEEDING direct contact are two different things, he's never stated to NEED direct contact, nor is it implied, he merely attempts to use RTZ while having contact, huge difference. And we know he doesn't need direct contact either, ignoring the fact the whole Diavolo sequence happened in EOH, and we're even SHOWN it happening with manga panels ripped straight from the source, no offense, but this argument is ******* bad, drop it. It works the same exact way, if you include gameplay as well, which you should, given it's a, well, a game, in which the characters' moves and actions portray how they're meant to work, RTZ can be used without contact as well. See the issue? You're basically saying it MUST work that way, when really, it's never actually stated to be like that and is shown in game to not be the case (And like it or not, gameplay matters here and holds more value over what you're insinuating, your extrapolation doesn't stack up or overshadow what it does in the game itself, it does it that way for a good reason), you're extrapolating drastically that GER having contact with TWOH means he MUST need contact, but in reality the fact they simply made contact and he opted to use RTZ after that is all that happened. This is a Basic cause and association fallacy, unless directly stated that he needs contact to use it all, or stating he needed contact there, he doesn't, and given his RTZ in gameplay doesn't need contact either, it's pretty damn obvious the intent wasn't that he NEEDED contact otherwise he'd need contact in gameplay too.

It can easily be interpreted as Dio being cocky since it's in his character to be.

Yeah, but WHY is he cocky? Because he knows damn well he can smite them whenever he pleases, and ends up doing exactly that when his plan falls into place. Dio might be cocky, but he isn't dumb (or well, he's pretty ******* dumb when it comes to Jotaro in particular but that's a Jotaro specific thing. This DIO in particular should probably even be more savvy then even the main Dio, given he actually managed to turn the tables and kill them in his world), but it's also in his character to panic, get mad, and so on when he's pushed or beat up, the fact that didn't happen tells us he wasn't actually being pushed or was fighting seriously and still got put on his knee.

If it's thought based then it requires time to be used. When I said instant I meant as in 0 time at all.

It's thought based, but the activation is instant, if Dio reacted to Plat and even acted surprise, which you're arguing, it also means he had enough time to think and be surprised, meaning he also could've time stopped, and avoided it. See the issue there? If you're arguing he noticed Plat coming and was surprised, he also could've done one of his instant thought based abilities to circumvent it.

If that's the case it can be easily argued that SP punched him before he thought of using TS which would be supported by the surprise on his face.

It really can't, if he could think be surprised, he could've stopped time, he merely wants to need to do it, he doesn't need to have huge thoughts in his head or think "time stop the world", he just needs to want to do it. We know this to be the case, we see in Part 3 that he could stop time subconsciously even in the presence of danger. And we also see that he, oddly enough, was surprised by Star Platinum out of nowhere coming to punch his skull in and while the punch was flying toward him, he stopped time to try and avoid it, which funnily enough, is what that scene in EOH where Plat punches Dio in the head is actually referencing, especially the line where Jotaro mentions he felt Plat cave his skull in, it's a direct callback to that scene where Dio gets blindsided by Plat and his head gets smashed in, but even then he stopped time to try and dodge, here in EOH he doesn't, despite the situation being the same, if not even less of a surprise, he just stands there and takes it.

In fact this scene is similar to the scene in part 3 when Dio sees SP's punch coming towards him after Jotaro pretended to be dead and failing to TS or dodge in time.

As I just explained, it's a direct callback, the thing is, he DOESN'T fail to stop time, he actually succeeds (shown more clearly in the anime, given Araki supervises shit and started to around the third season (Though his involvement definitely peaks in Part 5, even added new canon info and the like to that), if they made such a glaring **** up, it would've been pointed out much like the other **** ups he's corrected here and there), it just fails to matter because Plat can move in stopped time albeit only for a moment and it gets interrupted so his punch connects anyway. This isn't a issue HA DIO has. His time stop is based. But even ignoring time stop, other options do exist.

Again, you could just argue that the combined forces of the Joestars requires him to go all out. He can still go all out and have his plans accomplished plus he literally says right after all of this that he figured he'd HAVE TO use his final form to beat Jotaro.

You kinda can't tho, ignoring the fact Dio straight up says he's ******* around so you saying "well he actually was going all out" is blatant ignorance to what's being said, and ignoring the fact he never planned to win there, and ignoring the fact he's completely sure of himself that he could win all the same against them all and isn't the slight bit worried even after the fact, and ignoring the fact he went out of his way to let them all live without injury so they could go around getting soul power for later and ignoring the fact he had this planned from the get go, and ignoring the fact we see that if he wanted he could kill most of them in one hit (Even without hax, TWOH is strong as ****, he would mangle and rip holes through all but 3 of them with just his strikes, his speed is also to the point, even without Infinite, he eclipses all but 3) and ignoring the fact he can do so easily and so on, yeah no, not gonna fly, he was ******* around, said as much, never intended to harm them, kill them, or anything of the sort there, you can't say "well maybe he actually DID go all out against them all", when literally e v e r y t h i n g says he held back and didn't want to kill a single one, and given multiple characters pick up on this, yeah no.

That's also completely false, he doesn't say that right after, that line is quite a bit after everything is said and done, which also kinda proves my point, he was holding back, ******* around, the fact he's like "yeah dude NOW I'm gonna go all out against ya Jotaro", kinda implies, no, it outright confirms that in the previous fight, he wasn't going all out. But he's saying that more in response to Jotaro being resilient to some of his powers but whatever it may be, even if we take your interpretation of that line, it flatout confirms he held back. Also he's talking about Reality Overwrite.

Why would he HAVE TO use his final form on Jotaro if he could have easily used his infinite reaction and speed (again, the wiki had both infinite reaction speed and speed on Dio OH's page) to beat him? It makes things even less consistent.

Well one, it isn't a form, he's talking about his Reality Overwrite ability. Two, Plat Over Heaven is also scaling to Infinite speed, so under that pretext, it wouldn't matter. And three, funnily enough he proceeds to blitz Jotaro, which is saying a lot as Star Platinum is right next to him and fully manifested, meaning not even Plat could avoid that (Especially notable as Plat is sentient and protects againsts threats like that automatically, he would've blocked it he could).
Thus, I'm not so sure that's a good counter argument of Dio and TWOH being blitzed by Plat or the tagged by the others if serious if Dio finally going all out proceeds to blitz Plat.

Again, you misunderstand how that works, reaction speed is DIO, flat out is TWOH, they aren't the same, very, very different things.
"At least Massively FTL (Superior to his canon self) with likely Infinite reactions."

That's for Dio himself, he was only rated with reactions, nothing more.


"At least Massively FTL, likely Infinite with The World Over Heaven ( Countered Gold Experience Requiem's Return to Zero, although it's not clear if he nullified it before its activation or in the moment it was activated)"

That's for TWOH, not DIO, only TWOH had potential Infinite speed flat out.

You're confusing or conflating the two, they aren't the same, even in regards to the base speed of MFTL, TWOH still exceeds Dio's own tier of it by some degree, they both have different speeds.

For one, that was amped Dio punching Jolyne which wouldn't contradict anything and two, like I said you can argue that the combined forces of the Joestars requires him to go all out.

You do know that amped Dio isn't amped physically? The only thing amped is his RO ability, him casually dodging a bloodlusted punch from her with zero effort and countering with a punch that knocks her on her ass but also deletes her is something he always could've done, especially given we know he stomps Funny by deleting him across every reality, so EE was something he had even pre-amp, and stat wise, well, he was capable of that from the start so...

Even if I steelman your argument, at the bare minimum he should've went all out against Jotaro since he was going to erase his existence anyway. But he didn't which infers that he did in fact need to go all out.

He should've went all out against Jotaro, and he does so, but only after he gets what he wants, as soon as his plan succeeds, he gets 36 souls (Jotaro's soul fyi was needed originally but he got a proxy soul). He can't go all out against Jotaro while fighting a handful of other dudes, doing so would tip his hand, not only that, that corpse part was still needed, and to be fair, he still wanted Jotaro's soul, he just ultimately ended up not needing it (Thank Pucci for that one) plus, you're arguing against yourself here, you're saying Dio goes all out against Jotaro at the end, but this also directly confirms that if he's going all out now, he wasn't going all out prior, and lastly, this isn't an argument, this is honestly just the basic plot and motive he had in that sequence, you wouldn't be steelmaning me, you'd be steelmaning the game itself. Like it or not, it's made clear he held back on the rooftops, this is kind of an objective fact.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot190:

So what do you more specifically think should be changed in Dio's page and its footnote currently?

MFTL stuff ok, toss Infinite,

'''Note:''' Although DIO countered [[Giorno Giovanna|Gold Experience Requiem]]'s Return to Zero, it's not clear if he nullified it before its activation, in the moment it was activated, or after it, furthermore, DIO's speed is consistently portrayed everywhere else within the game as not being Infinite but rather significantly less, coinciding with his usual speed showings.

Something like that, basically first bit is ok, second bit focuses to much on a scene very much open to interpretation to some extent, but it's still true that his speed is very much shown not Infinite everywhere else, him being comparable to GER in speed alone (seemingly the same speed), would make him not Infinite as well, GER isn't either physically, or Plat in the final battle, or in the actual gameplay, and so on. He's definitely one of the fastest but he's not infinitely so.

 

[GroundX1]

I reviewed the scene and after Giorno tells Dio that he will never reach the truth, Dio smiles and rewrites the blow, every time Dio rewrites something a distortion effect appears, when he was wounded by Jotaro, he laughs and rewrites the wound and this effect appears, what I'm trying to say here is that it implies that he wrote the GER after he used his power, at least in my Vision since every time he rewrites something it instantly happens, if he rewrites himself before the GER uses his power the effect would have already appeared before Giorno said anything.

 

[Antvasima]

MFTL stuff ok, toss Infinite,

'''Note:''' Although DIO countered [[Giorno Giovanna|Gold Experience Requiem]]'s Return to Zero, it's not clear if he nullified it before its activation, in the moment it was activated, or after it, furthermore, DIO's speed is consistently portrayed everywhere else within the game as not being Infinite but rather significantly less, coinciding with his usual speed showings.

Something like that, basically first bit is ok, second bit focuses to much on a scene very much open to interpretation to some extent, but it's still true that his speed is very much shown not Infinite everywhere else, him being comparable to GER in speed alone (seemingly the same speed), would make him not Infinite as well, GER isn't either physically, or Plat in the final battle, or in the actual gameplay, and so on. He's definitely one of the fastest but he's not infinitely so.

Okay. Would that be fine with you Eficiente?

 

[Eficiente]

Sure

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reply.

Is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here?