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I've already explained why fire/heat is not a passive. Especially not in the same way as Tomoe's aura.
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Dio brando vs tomoe
- Thread starter speedster352
- Start date
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i dont really care about dio, just what works in time stop. thats it. and yeah, he is outdated.
? what does the death aura do though. from what I read from chariot here, it probs wouldnt even do anything, what with the perks of being an ultimate lifeform does for dio. What does death aura do here, is what im wondering about. Though, I dont care anyways ig.
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Cool, the said thing you explained for Tomoe, needs to be proven that it CAN work as intended, or even continue affecting things around it, in stopped time. Until then, a dude with a time stop gets to remain unharmed from this aura, given that it cannot affect anything when it is literally stopped.
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Things can still affect Dio in stopped time. Which is why he can grab and move objects, it's why he can see and sense things, it's literally the reason why he can do anything in ts.
This whole "Dio is unaffected by anything while time is stopped" thing is headcanon that doesn't actually exist.
We've never considered time stop and invulnerability to be synonymous.
And even with stopped time, DIO would have to physically move through her aura. Suffice to say, that's not happening.
Edit:
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You didn't actually answer his question, how does the death hax work? Could it effect an ultimate lifeform who's already dead? Can it kill those who are undead? Etc.
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What the aura touches drops dead. idk if we assume vampirism protects from death manip (Unless stated or a feat is shown). At the worst DIO could come back from it but would still be in the aura so he'd just keep dying over and over again.
Arkenis
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pretty sure the vamps are considered dead but if they aren't then its w.e also he said he said ultimate life forms are already dead
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First off, this Dio isn't a "vampire", he's ******* weird in the novel.
Second off, it's the other way around in terms of who has to show what, if, for example, a skeleton knight for Dark Souls was hit by the aura, what would happen? Would we assume the skeleton would drop dead? Not really, it's already undead what would making the dead thing dead do, it wouldn't change anything, it's on the aura to demonstrate it's capable of death maniping things that are already dead. In the same way you need to show you can mind hax machines like Jedi do or if you can soul hax inanimate objects like, well idk, but I'm sure there's someone who can. And to go further, does the death hax work on ghosts and souls? Can she make a disembodied soul drop dead for example?
It might be death hax but various characters might have innate resistances to it due to physiology.
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So... DIO isn't even an undead in the novel or what?
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He's an ultimate thing, he used to be a vampire, but well, not anymore.
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Uh, he’s basically called a “thing” through out. He’s a vampire, who has the blood and therefore part of the power of the ultimate life form. So now he’s just the ultimate thing
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"Things can still affect DIO" like what? Touching... objects? How does that affect him? How does simply moving things away MEAN that anything else outside of DIO can affect him? Its the same as saying poison, fire, etc would work. Even though, thats not even true and its shown in P4. Timestop's interaction is completely delayed until time begins again. Like this one for instance.
Like bruh.
Seeing/sensing things ≠ being affected by a literal magical death aura in stopped gime
. There is no feats anyways, of anything really working despite holding things. (Like say, Jotaro or DIO holding a Torch Lighter. Sure, they could do something like opening it, but would the flame work as intended? Would the process of it lighting up happen? No, its delayed. Literally. They could even drop their hands in a pool full of acid. Would it burn them? No, because IT never happened, and neither do we see anything similar to it. And with how everything in time stop is simply just, delayed, pretty sure they can dip their hands in that pool of acid in stopped time, take it back out, and be just fine.)Though, tbh, him moving objects might be a case of him transferring his stand energy in stopped time, in order to, y'know, move the objects there
but meh.Not headcanon when the flow of time is halted, meaning, everything takes in 0 time or so. (I prefer to say everything simply stops, like no time passess. Which is the same anyways) And what I said is true. Everything simply stops working in time stop. That aint invulnerability, simply a basic deducting here. Though I dont remember saying he's unaffected by everything? Lowkey feels like you're misinterpreting what I said.
yeah sure. I'll wait on you to prove that her aura can magically work as intended when time doesnt flow for that process to happen.
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And how does that exactly work? Simply just "i got touched, i died."? Yeah ok, but HOW is the cause of death happening? How does it kill exactly here? This is important to know. Example: Aura of death touches random dude, the dude dies because of organ failure and shit, or heart explodes, or whatever, ya get me.
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There's no deep explanation for the power in particular, but it should presumably work like other death hax in the verse; which just means all bodily functions stop at once, though that death hax is superior to this one.
Bad examples; poison needs to spread and fire needs time for energy to transfer, DIO is literally bathing himself in death by trying to approach (pun intended) Tomoe."Things can still affect DIO" like what? Touching... objects? How does that affect him? How does simply moving things away MEAN that anything else outside of DIO can affect him? Its the same as saying poison, fire, etc would work. Even though, thats not even true and its shown in P4. Timestop's interaction is completely delayed until
Also, death isn't even the only problem for DIO here, her passive aura includes:
1) Fear which can render people unconscious (Mind you, this fear even has several layers behind it with the new CRT).
2) Petrification to turn others to stone.
3) Mind Control/Madness Manipulation.
4) Paralysis.
5) Soul Manip.
6) Statistics Reduction.
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"literally bathing himself"
just like the acid pool example I brought up. Like, this, just, doesnt even attack my arguments at all. Once again, you'd need to prove said effects COULD even work in the first place, when it cant, because of the "ayo bro look at me, the flow of the time is halted, cry about it + cope + you cant anyways because no time lol" reason. "copy" oh yeah, does she even have layered npi or something. might have missed. And what type of NPI? From. what it looks like in the NPI page, it seems like NPI could have different types somewhat? Like, one is mental/psychic, the other is soul-type. Stands for example, are soul-type. And they have NPI layer, so basically, they are above the baseline level, just like Bleach? I heard its also got that type of shit too.
also, dunno if i had made my intent clear or not, but i dont care that much about the match, other than the "this thing would work in time stop even if it does not have the feats for it" stuff. Aside from that, I dont care that much about the match. DIO is L. Novel Kars is Giga Chad.
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Wait, what?
Is that it? That's not gonna do anything? Dio doesn't need to breathe, eat, drink, have his heart beat, anything of the sort. Hell even canon Dio doesn't need that stuff.
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I don't have to prove anything. DIO still interacts with things while time is stopped, so it stands to reason that he will interact with the aura."literally bathing himself"
Well speaking truthfully regardless of this match: There is no layered NPI in Tsukimichi strictly speaking. However, their NPI is varied in that they can affect souls, illusions, elemental intag, and possibly phasing through scaling.
Speaking of copy; Tomoe's copy ability comes from her ability to turn illusions into reality, she uses her power to reality warp powers and skills into existence. the problem with this ability is that she hasn't really had an opportunity to use it, reasons being:
1) She's hardly had fights on-screen.
2) In the fights she's had, she either stomps to the point of not needing to copy or is up against such a powerful and irregular existence that she just can't recreate it (Doesn't have the MP nor Physiology).
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Well you kinda need layered NPI to effect Stands, and layered ESP as well to see and sense them. That's been accepted for quite a long while.
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"I dont have to prove anything" You need to prove that this death aura's effects could work in stopped time though, thats my point, lol. DIO interacting with things in stopped time, doesnt necessarily indicate that he's holding this aura, which, whenever he does throw objects, WE see him holding it, till he throws them out.
Anyways. You still need to prove that it could even take effect. Yes, DIO could touch it, sure sure, but, IS THERE any indication of it transmitting the death aura's effects to him? In stopped time? No. Neither has anything like this happened in all instances of time stops as far as I remember. Nonetheless, like I said, your not getting a pass with this without feats. It aint some stuff like, where if you perceive it, you die, regardless of time stop, because well, your perceiving them with your mind.(Madness Manip type 3) This is something else.
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they'd also have to prove said death manip would work on him, as something like SCP-049's death manip wouldn't work on DIO since he's getting his organs shut down.
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I know the scaling for a good handful of them, why?Off topic, but do you scale SCP?
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I was just wondering. Given that you brought up that SCP as an example, so I was curious if you do scale SCP.
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Honestly this should be its own thread at this point.
“Can auras and already activated aoe abilities work in time stop”.
I just don’t agree, and don’t really see how you can have that perspective for reasons already explained.
Arkenis
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is the aura physical?
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No clue. Supernatural Energy and it’s effects are usually assumed to be physical tho.
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I find it really weird that GunsWrath (his name is too long lolol) is essentially arguing that:
1. DIO could activate a THOUGHT BASED time stop before the effects of a Passive Aura, which he is already encompassed by at the start of the match, can affect him
2. That while in Time Stop, DIO could essentially walk and sit into a Disintegrator beam and wouldn't be harm
"Can passives (or/and the effects of passive) work while in Time Stop"
1. DIO could activate a THOUGHT BASED time stop before the effects of a Passive Aura, which he is already encompassed by at the start of the match, can affect him
2. That while in Time Stop, DIO could essentially walk and sit into a Disintegrator beam and wouldn't be harm
I think you should put this in a Q&A or smth
"Can passives (or/and the effects of passive) work while in Time Stop"
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I mean, he could, Beyond is still a thing at the end of the day, Beyond straight up makes it so things that would kill or be lethal, just aren't for no real reason beyond just "it just isnt", a decent example would be when Vampire Dio went out into the sun, something that instantly vaporizes him on contact by merely being in its presence, failed to actually disintegrate him because he wasn't allowed to die so he could act in broad daylight despite it being normally impossible for his kind.
And for 2, honestly?
It depends on how the beam does it, every single one of you aren't asking the right questions when it comes to shit working in stopped time, you're thinking in black and white terms when it's not actually that simple, the deciding factor is whether or not the things in question effect Dio under their own actions or if they effect Dio under things innately true for himself. If that disintegrator beam is stopped it can't really disintegrate anything depending how it does, does the beam work by rending the atoms apart itself? If so then yeah no, it wouldn't work, it's frozen so it can't actually perform the act of doing that, it's like, imagine picking up a HF blade from Metal Gear by the edge in stopped time, yeah sure it has quantum durahax on contact, but it's done under its own merit and by actions that are halted within stopped time, under the effects of stopped time, it's just a normal blade.
Another way to visualize this using basic concepts that in JoJo itself, imagine if Dio walked through flames within stopped time, he'd be fine as the transfer of heat is done under the flame's actions, not Dio's, the flames themselves are halted, they can't apply heat, transfer it or apply the effects beyond what how it was upon freezing, but if he walked through Hamon in stopped time, it'd effect him, not because Hamon works in stopped time but as it's his own body that reacts violently to the energy form itself regardless of what the Hamon is doing, for example.
If you all want to bicker back and forth about what can and can't work in time stop (not that it matters, match is rigged as **** anyhow), you should figure out how said abilities apply their effects onto a target in the first place, is it done under its own power? Well then no, it probably wouldn't effect anything in stopped time as the thing that applies the effect is halted, even if it is instantaneous, but is the effect something that's applied on the target's end? That Type 3 Madness example is actually a really good one imo, as that's a hax that works not on the end of the user, but on the end of the target, whether time is stopped or not, if the hax is done by you yourself perceiving it, then it's gonna work regardless of if the user can take action, as the action itself is done by you, not them.
So to answer the question, it's a case by case thing, literally just depends how it works.
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I dont have much to say, as chariot already spoke and pretty much covered most of the questions itself for what I had in mind. It's a case by case thing too, like he said.
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I wish I knew the relevancy of what my name even has ANYTHING to do with this convo here. Ngl, that kinda came off as bit obnoxious to me. Anyways.
1. Not what I even was arguing for. Lowkey a strawman. I was arguing AND mainly talking about what could happen or not happen in time stop
2. Chariot already answered, so I dont really have anything else to say. Also, it would be a false equivalency to think holding a object like a normal knife = An aura, that, aint really physical, nor holds mass. (I dont know much about it anyways, but from what I learned here, its just an aura so far, similar to air ig, in a way, so to speak.)
anyways, match is rigged. no Beyond, so that sucks.
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So do you think Jotaro just isn't breathing every time he stops time? He appears to still affected by the air, atmosphere, gravity, strong and weak forces ect. Just based on the fact that he has to physically commit actions to achieve results in ts.
And I used Jotaro here because they have the same power but he's not a vampire/ultimate being so nobody can say "he can survive without those things!"
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Actually, he might not be, there's been some interviews with Araki (most recent one was 2018) that suggests when time is stopped, they can't or don't breathe, off the top of my head, that's the reason why The World has 02 Tanks actually, it's to enable breathing when time is stopped w̵h̵i̵c̵h̵ ̵d̵o̵e̵s̵n̵t̵ ̵f̵u̵c̵k̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵m̵a̵t̵t̵e̵r̵ ̵b̵e̵c̵a̵u̵s̵e̵ ̵D̵i̵o̵ ̵i̵s̵ ̵a̵ ̵v̵a̵m̵p̵i̵r̵e̵,̵ ̵b̵u̵t̵ ̵I̵'̵m̵ ̵s̵u̵r̵e̵ ̵D̵i̵e̵g̵o̵ ̵a̵p̵p̵r̵e̵c̵i̵a̵t̵e̵s̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵
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what the **** does this even have to do with what I said?
"similar to air, in a way, so to speak" the same thing you highlighted, isnt me saying its literally air. Anyways, we havent seen DIO or Jotaro breath in time stop, not like they have to, when its just 5 seconds for Jotaro, and, SP's lung capacity being strong af. TW has oxygen tanks too, not like dio needs it anyways when he doesnt have to breath.
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Also gravity is weird, I'm going to say that conventionally, it doesn't really work in stopped time?
See him against Dio, there's multiple instances where they're in the sky but time is halted, and even when using his ability to move in stopped time for a second or two, he doesn't actually fall any further.
Couple that with Dio, who's basically flying and moving mid air without touching anything while time is halted, and for the whole duration he doesn't fall, I actually don't think the law of gravity pulls on them when time is stopped based on the fact they can float in mid air and effectively fly when time is stopped (That isn't to say Gravity can't effect time stop in JoJo in extreme examples like MIH and Act 4, but that's due to gravity's space-time warping effects, not things like gravitational pull).
Don't wanna whip out the VPN to grab manga scans so anime is gonna need to suffice
See him against Dio, there's multiple instances where they're in the sky but time is halted, and even when using his ability to move in stopped time for a second or two, he doesn't actually fall any further.
Couple that with Dio, who's basically flying and moving mid air without touching anything while time is halted, and for the whole duration he doesn't fall, I actually don't think the law of gravity pulls on them when time is stopped based on the fact they can float in mid air and effectively fly when time is stopped (That isn't to say Gravity can't effect time stop in JoJo in extreme examples like MIH and Act 4, but that's due to gravity's space-time warping effects, not things like gravitational pull).
Don't wanna whip out the VPN to grab manga scans so anime is gonna need to suffice
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Also that, Plat has a lung capacity of like, 25 billion liters.
T̵h̵i̵n̵k̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵i̵t̵,̵ ̵i̵f̵ ̵J̵o̵t̵a̵r̵o̵ ̵k̵n̵e̵w̵ ̵a̵b̵o̵u̵t̵ ̵t̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵e̵a̵r̵l̵y̵ ̵o̵n̵,̵ ̵h̵e̵ ̵c̵o̵u̵l̵d̵ ̵o̵f̵ ̵m̵e̵m̵e̵d̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵C̵a̵p̵t̵a̵i̵n̵ ̵T̵e̵n̵i̵l̵l̵e̵
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Okay ummm
Can we get back to arguing character vs character instead of weird world physics?
What's DIO defense against Passive Death Hax, Paralysis Hax, Soul Hax, BFR Hax, Subjective Reality + EE Hax
And assuming DIO can somehow get pass that, how is he gonna go after Tomoe?
Actually, should we even debate this at all anymore?
DIO is heavily outdated and absolutely no offense to you at all Chariot but you keep using stuff not on DIO's profile which makes the debate itself unviable
Can we get back to arguing character vs character instead of weird world physics?
What's DIO defense against Passive Death Hax, Paralysis Hax, Soul Hax, BFR Hax, Subjective Reality + EE Hax
And assuming DIO can somehow get pass that, how is he gonna go after Tomoe?
Actually, should we even debate this at all anymore?
DIO is heavily outdated and absolutely no offense to you at all Chariot but you keep using stuff not on DIO's profile which makes the debate itself unviable
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I’m just here wondering how speedster let this in
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Beyond is literally on his profile, and it does say he has "Plot Manipulation, Miracles and Fate Manip" with it, everything I've said he could do is a byproduct of the Plot and Miracle manip, the issue is the profile just doesn't elaborate at all what the **** a "miracle" even is or how extensive the plot manip is, but it's still listed all the same.
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In which case, Beyond negs via manipulating the plot or creating a miracle as to where Dio isn't effected by it or something.
Para hax and soul hax he can just shrug off himself, he has extensive body and biomanip and he doesn't even need a soul, soul damage is a nuisance at best.
Death Hax also as mentioned, depends on how or what it does, if it's just causing organ failure or what not that's not helpful at all against a vampire let alone an ultimate thing, and can that detah hax even work on things that have already died?
A lot of questions were asked but none have actually been answered.
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