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Well there is only one FTL feat for FF8 and 7 and people accepted those.
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Devil May Cry: Question about Dante's speed
- Thread starter GrimmReaper94
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Also it's 18:00 for the DMC2 feat
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Yeah, calling the feats outliers because later characters don't also perform them doesn't really seem fair. Zack is accepted as FTL even though he ends up being killed with guns, and Goku and Beerus messing with the universe is accepted even though later characters have no feat even close to that. And Superman's high feats are accepted even though he's struggled to lift buildings at times. And unlike Superman and characters like him with low showings like that, we've never seen a top level demon struggle with a smaller feat or anything like that. They just aren't all shown doing those top feats, which actually doesn't strongly contradict the feats by Mundus at all.
And in the case of Dante he always holds back on his true power, making it hard to dismiss feats he displayed the one time he fought seriously as outliers.
And in the case of Dante he always holds back on his true power, making it hard to dismiss feats he displayed the one time he fought seriously as outliers.
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I'll make things simple; say that this thread poses the question of "How fast can Dante fly in this scene?" The answer to that question is already present here. Now we have another question, "How fast is Dante in general now?" The answer would also be present in the thread since they're both flying at full speed whilst dodging their projectiles the speed they fly at should scale to their reactions. But we have a problem, we have various instances of Dante flying (where it would be illogical for him to hold his speed back x a thousand.) But they're way, way lower than what's presented here and during a time where Dante is at the peak of his abilities. Making the feat presented here, anomalous.
Now that's out the way, we know Dante flies at a much slower speed; as a result, the whole projectile war they (Mundus and Dante) have is much less impressive than it was prior (in terms of reactions.)
Now that's out the way, we know Dante flies at a much slower speed; as a result, the whole projectile war they (Mundus and Dante) have is much less impressive than it was prior (in terms of reactions.)
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"Zack is accepted as FTL even though he ends up being killed with guns"
Not comparable, the other is extreme PIS and there are numerous Tier 5 and 4 in Final Fantasy 7.
"Goku and Beerus messing with the universe is accepted even though later characters have no feat even close to that"
There are dozens of Universal statements that came since Episode 12, this is also complete false.
"Superman's high feats are accepted even though he's struggled to lift buildings at times"
Holy shit, have you read any comic? Superman in his prime doesn't struggle to lift buildings, unless you grabbed a Year 1 origin story which in that case Superman is always far weaker.
All your examples are false-equivalencies / lies.
Not comparable, the other is extreme PIS and there are numerous Tier 5 and 4 in Final Fantasy 7.
"Goku and Beerus messing with the universe is accepted even though later characters have no feat even close to that"
There are dozens of Universal statements that came since Episode 12, this is also complete false.
"Superman's high feats are accepted even though he's struggled to lift buildings at times"
Holy shit, have you read any comic? Superman in his prime doesn't struggle to lift buildings, unless you grabbed a Year 1 origin story which in that case Superman is always far weaker.
All your examples are false-equivalencies / lies.
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@Austrian-Man-Meat
Should we take into consideration how impressive a scene was? In DMC2 when he saves Lucia from the light attack the scene is ridiculous, but it was due to the resources that the game had for the time, even the movements of the characters became very "slow" because of this.
@Austrian-Man-Meat
Should we take into consideration how impressive a scene was? In DMC2 when he saves Lucia from the light attack the scene is ridiculous, but it was due to the resources that the game had for the time, even the movements of the characters became very "slow" because of this.
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@Hamiku
Evidence that the light attack is real light that moves at Lightspeed? It's a basic debating standard to not treat supernatural energy attacks and sci-fi generic "laser" guns as Lightspeed unless there is evidence that they are.
Evidence that the light attack is real light that moves at Lightspeed? It's a basic debating standard to not treat supernatural energy attacks and sci-fi generic "laser" guns as Lightspeed unless there is evidence that they are.
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@Matthew Schroeder
I agree, but that was not the point of my question, I was saying if we should take into consideration how impressive the scene was. After all the game is relatively old, a struggle of this scale in today's generation would be many times more impressive.
I agree, but that was not the point of my question, I was saying if we should take into consideration how impressive the scene was. After all the game is relatively old, a struggle of this scale in today's generation would be many times more impressive.
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That's...not an excuse. Kirby's villain Dark Matter has a feat in the trillions of c with a game that came out on the N64
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True feats don't require flashyness to be powerful, arguing that the scene isn't as impressive as it would have been due to technology is a moot point, we work with what we get.
For comparison relating to flashyness, compare Saitama's Meteor-Busting feat, beautifully animated by Madhouse, with great cinematic direction and an accompanying epic soundtrack...
To Soul Zamasu englobing the space-time continuum with his will. This time the scene is barely animated at all, with Toei animation cutting corners to save money, there is no memorable music and the scene is quite dry.
Which of the two is the stronger feat? The one that looks awesome and impressive, and the one that doesn't look impressive but wields a much higher result?
For comparison relating to flashyness, compare Saitama's Meteor-Busting feat, beautifully animated by Madhouse, with great cinematic direction and an accompanying epic soundtrack...
To Soul Zamasu englobing the space-time continuum with his will. This time the scene is barely animated at all, with Toei animation cutting corners to save money, there is no memorable music and the scene is quite dry.
Which of the two is the stronger feat? The one that looks awesome and impressive, and the one that doesn't look impressive but wields a much higher result?
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I was not saying, I was ASKING if it was an important factor, from what I understood from the Austrian comment was that the feat was less consistent because of the quality of the scene, so I ASKED and I did not say, Just to clarify.
Anyway, thanks Matthew Schroeder for explaining.
Anyway, thanks Matthew Schroeder for explaining.
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AMM, well as I said Dante really holds back on his full power, and there aren't any scenes where he flew slowly and suffered for it. That clip you provided shows him flying at what looks like a slow speed, but he got himself and Lucia out of there regardless, so it more doesn't support the feat rather than actally contradicting it.
Schroeder,
PIS or not it still happened, and my point was that low end feats don't negate high ones.
And yet despite all the statements and that one feat that clearly established level of power never appears in fights between characters that strong. If you watched the tournament with Universe 6 having not watched the Battle of Gods scene and missed the statements you'd never know. That was my point.
Not in his prime in Superman's case, deliberately holding back in Dante's case. Exactly why it isn't fair to ignore the top feats on the basis of them being outliers.
And can we please be a little nicer? I don't think I said or did anything to deserve that.
Schroeder,
PIS or not it still happened, and my point was that low end feats don't negate high ones.
And yet despite all the statements and that one feat that clearly established level of power never appears in fights between characters that strong. If you watched the tournament with Universe 6 having not watched the Battle of Gods scene and missed the statements you'd never know. That was my point.
Not in his prime in Superman's case, deliberately holding back in Dante's case. Exactly why it isn't fair to ignore the top feats on the basis of them being outliers.
And can we please be a little nicer? I don't think I said or did anything to deserve that.
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@Random. If that were true, I'd have gotten Kirby to 3-A with the three or four times I've tried. Sonic would be tier 2 by now. Heck. Supes would be 1-A.
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If what were true? Which words are you responding to?
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Random-Helper323 said:
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When I say low end feats don't negate high end ones I mean they don't automatically negate them. And in Dante's case you aren't so much dealing with solid low end showings because we've never seen anything to really indicate those demons are weak, just a lack of any quantifiable feats to back up the ones performed by Mundus.
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Schroeder,
PIS or not it still happened, and my point was that low end feats don't negate high ones.
In this case, they do. Saying that "Low end feats don't negate higher ones" only gets you so far. Mundus-level characters struggle to do things far less impressive than the MFTL+ calculation here, a calc that is debunked in the same scene.
PIS or not it still happened, and my point was that low end feats don't negate high ones.
In this case, they do. Saying that "Low end feats don't negate higher ones" only gets you so far. Mundus-level characters struggle to do things far less impressive than the MFTL+ calculation here, a calc that is debunked in the same scene.
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To give an example, Arceus getting injured by the meteor in a way directly contradicts his universal feats, and yet the feat is still factored, while in DMC all we have is others comparable to Mundus moving at speeds that can't be quantified and not displaying universal power.
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Which Mundus level character struggles to do something far below that?
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You have a Demon Lord which is stated to be Mundus level being toyed by base-Dante in the DMC anime, and being shot in the face.
You have Dante himself not depicting a single even FTL feat in the entire rest of the series.
Your examples show the contrary, you show a character that a consistent level and a low-end anomaly.
In this case it is the exact opposite, you are going against your own logic simply because you want a MFTL+ Dante that doesn't exist.
You have Dante himself not depicting a single even FTL feat in the entire rest of the series.
Your examples show the contrary, you show a character that a consistent level and a low-end anomaly.
In this case it is the exact opposite, you are going against your own logic simply because you want a MFTL+ Dante that doesn't exist.
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No character here is considered MFTL due to a single feat of that level?
Toyed by base Dante? The distortion in the scene and in Dante's voice clearly indicates that he used the Devil Trigger with Abigail.
Bayonetta FTL with calculations exists but Dante MFTL with calculations does not exist. Okay.
Toyed by base Dante? The distortion in the scene and in Dante's voice clearly indicates that he used the Devil Trigger with Abigail.
Bayonetta FTL with calculations exists but Dante MFTL with calculations does not exist. Okay.
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He didn't use Devil Trigger against Abigail, and I'm talking about two other villains from the anime who are also stated to be on Mundus' level, and Dante fodderizes them in base.
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Uh....Did you not see the Lucia feat?Matthew Schroeder said:
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ok so what conclusion about this?
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Little early for that
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw8UswJlo68&t=88s
Did the explosion come from nowhere? He used at least some of DT's power, that's obvious.
Did the explosion come from nowhere? He used at least some of DT's power, that's obvious.
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"You have a Demon Lord which is stated to be Mundus level being toyed by base-Dante in the DMC anime, and being shot in the face."
Well actually Dante laughed at the power Sid had, so wherever we decide to place Sid Dante was far stronger, and the shot in the face is irrelevant for two reasons:
A) Dante's shots are supernaturally empowered like Gambit's cards (Gambit isn't magic but it's the same principle)
B) Sid had already been beaten and had no real power when that shot hit him.
"You have Dante himself not depicting a single even FTL feat in the entire rest of the series."
As I said, Dante always holds back. And technically he could be FTL in some fights and just not be quantifiably so. A lack of obvious quantifiable feats doesn't automatically mean the scenes are slow.
"Your examples show the contrary, you show a character that a consistent level and a low-end anomaly. In this case it is the exact opposite, you are going against your own logic simply because you want a MFTL+ Dante that doesn't exist."
A consistent level while playing around, feats which could be faster than they seem, and a much higher feat performed the one time he fought seriously.
And as the Outlier and Inconsistency pages on this wiki say,
"all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable"
And,
"Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power)."
So it seems unfair to say that because there aren't other quantifiable FTL feats that automatically makes it unusable.
Well actually Dante laughed at the power Sid had, so wherever we decide to place Sid Dante was far stronger, and the shot in the face is irrelevant for two reasons:
A) Dante's shots are supernaturally empowered like Gambit's cards (Gambit isn't magic but it's the same principle)
B) Sid had already been beaten and had no real power when that shot hit him.
"You have Dante himself not depicting a single even FTL feat in the entire rest of the series."
As I said, Dante always holds back. And technically he could be FTL in some fights and just not be quantifiably so. A lack of obvious quantifiable feats doesn't automatically mean the scenes are slow.
"Your examples show the contrary, you show a character that a consistent level and a low-end anomaly. In this case it is the exact opposite, you are going against your own logic simply because you want a MFTL+ Dante that doesn't exist."
A consistent level while playing around, feats which could be faster than they seem, and a much higher feat performed the one time he fought seriously.
And as the Outlier and Inconsistency pages on this wiki say,
"all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable"
And,
"Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power)."
So it seems unfair to say that because there aren't other quantifiable FTL feats that automatically makes it unusable.
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Lucia feat is not the only feat of speed in DMC2, Dante "disappears" even though it is in a limited area in the fight against Argosax.
Obviously this is not FTL / MFTL, just a feat I've never seen anyone remember.
Https://youtu.be/TresMCXdeO4?t=12m43s
Notice that we can see 360┬║ from the battlefield, and Argosax looks up and to the sides before Dante subtly appears behind him.
Obviously this is not FTL / MFTL, just a feat I've never seen anyone remember.
Https://youtu.be/TresMCXdeO4?t=12m43s
Notice that we can see 360┬║ from the battlefield, and Argosax looks up and to the sides before Dante subtly appears behind him.
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Holding back only goes so far, you are abusing an excuse
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"A consistent level while playing around"
So? The whole "Casual / Holding Back" argument is meaningless. Being casual NEVER grants you a higher tier than your best casual feats if you have no superior serious feats.
"feats which could be faster than they seem"
What you think they can be is irrelevant, we go by what is seen, not what you hope to see.
"and a much higher feat performed the one time he fought seriously"
A feat that is debunked in the same scene it is performed, and that is completely unreliable.
So? The whole "Casual / Holding Back" argument is meaningless. Being casual NEVER grants you a higher tier than your best casual feats if you have no superior serious feats.
"feats which could be faster than they seem"
What you think they can be is irrelevant, we go by what is seen, not what you hope to see.
"and a much higher feat performed the one time he fought seriously"
A feat that is debunked in the same scene it is performed, and that is completely unreliable.
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Not just holding back. As I say we have instances where he is moving at unknown speed. And nothing seriously contradicts the feats in question. If he was being constantly shown struggling to dodge bullets or something like that, but he never struggles except in certain scenes.
And which demon lords are supposed to be equal to Mundus?
And which demon lords are supposed to be equal to Mundus?
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Argosax true form is faster than lightning?
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"The whole "Casual / Holding Back" argument is meaningless. Being casual NEVER grants you a higher tier than your best casual feats if you have no superior serious feats."
And he does have.
"What you think they can be is irrelevant, we go by what is seen, not what you hope to see."
My point was the speeds he appears to be moving at doesn't counter his high speed feat because a character can move fast without looking as fast.
"A feat that is debunked in the same scene it is performed"
If the feat is debunked you'll have to discuss that with Lina Shields and ThePerpetual. All I'm doing is disagreeing with the outlier claim. They were the ones who calculated the feats. Still I don't see how the feat is debunked.
And he does have.
"What you think they can be is irrelevant, we go by what is seen, not what you hope to see."
My point was the speeds he appears to be moving at doesn't counter his high speed feat because a character can move fast without looking as fast.
"A feat that is debunked in the same scene it is performed"
If the feat is debunked you'll have to discuss that with Lina Shields and ThePerpetual. All I'm doing is disagreeing with the outlier claim. They were the ones who calculated the feats. Still I don't see how the feat is debunked.
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Sorry,Abigail only had power who Rival Mundus.
He is not on Mundus Level.
He is not on Mundus Level.
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This.
I noticed the video now.
This proves nothing, not about Dante's flight speed, nor about actual speed.
Why would he fly at a high speed to dodge an explosion that he knew would not hit him and Lucia? Without those cutscenes where he had NO REASON to fly at high speeds we only see him fly in the cutscene of DMC1 which is what we are discussing.
I noticed the video now.
This proves nothing, not about Dante's flight speed, nor about actual speed.
Why would he fly at a high speed to dodge an explosion that he knew would not hit him and Lucia? Without those cutscenes where he had NO REASON to fly at high speeds we only see him fly in the cutscene of DMC1 which is what we are discussing.
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Creed,
Also Sid's use of the power is unreliable since he didn't know how to use it. The fact Dante laughed at him indicates he's fought far stronger. Logically that means Mundus.
Also Sid's use of the power is unreliable since he didn't know how to use it. The fact Dante laughed at him indicates he's fought far stronger. Logically that means Mundus.
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well he still strong enough to Rule the Earth
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Hmm, I do suppose you have a point. Dante shouldn't really have a reason to urgently get away from an explosion which wouldn't even scathe him; he's already got Lucia in a position which blocks her from the blast.Hamiku said:
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After casting Dante several times Dante says:
"In the end, this is the most you can do"
It had thrown a "curse" over the earth , was impregnating the world with demons and evaporating neighborhoods with bursts of energy . What else did Dante expect he could do? Could it be that Sid had no control over all of Abigail's power?
For me this more than proves that he has powers to rival Mundus, having full control or not.
"In the end, this is the most you can do"
It had thrown a "curse" over the earth , was impregnating the world with demons and evaporating neighborhoods with bursts of energy . What else did Dante expect he could do? Could it be that Sid had no control over all of Abigail's power?
For me this more than proves that he has powers to rival Mundus, having full control or not.
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