Devil Hearts > Devil durability

[CloverDragon03]

All you did when replying to me was repeat the same stuff without adding anything new, and I've already addressed it regardless of what you think. I really shouldn't have to respond to these arguments when you've brought in nothing that hasn't already been addressed. Again, you're holding onto a statement from Dryad that I frankly have no idea how you got "you can kill mid-rank devils or higher with Ultimate Magic" from. I've already explained that she would've mentioned that they could do this given that she knew they were learning Ultimate Magic, as now was not a time for her to be cryptic and only imply things. They learned it, yet she still considers those devils a problem. It's that simple.

Also side note, Asta's feat against Lucifero's gravity is lifting strength, not AP, so it's completely irrelevant.

You just keep saying "you didn't even read my post" when you don't even substantiate it well to begin with. And once again, Luck never killed the mid-rankers regardless of what you claim. They were confused that he managed to hurt them like that to begin with, but they're not dead, otherwise they wouldn't have reacted to what he did.

I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous, especially stuff like the whole "Asta needing Union" thing, to the point that I'm starting to believe you're deliberately creating these interpretations to try and support a flimsy argument.

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree 100 percent with DragonGamerZ913.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

All you did when replying to me was repeat the same stuff without adding anything new, and I've already addressed it regardless of what you think. I really shouldn't have to respond to these arguments when you've brought in nothing that hasn't already been addressed. Again, you're holding onto a statement from Dryad that I frankly have no idea how you got "you can kill mid-rank devils or higher with Ultimate Magic" from. I've already explained that she would've mentioned that they could do this given that she knew they were learning Ultimate Magic, as now was not a time for her to be cryptic and only imply things. They learned it, yet she still considers those devils a problem. It's that simple.

Factually wrong, as I provided more evidence for my arguments as the thread continued. Unlike you. You're being very dense. There is no Dryad being cryptic. We get a flashback of her talking and then Tabata pans it back to Luck. You're also incorrect. The flashback is to BEFORE they learned the UM as shown in the beginning of 284. Which harkens to her instructions. "With low-level devils, you just need a ton of mana". "The issue is with mid-ranking and higher," the rest of her statement isn't shown by Tabata. Because Tabata SHOWS Luck using Ultimate magic to fill in her words.

Also side note, Asta's feat against Lucifero's gravity is lifting strength, not AP, so it's completely irrelevant.

Incorrect. It's a lifting strength feat AND a durability feat because his body would need the durability to withstand the gravitational force to go against it. So, actually, it's very relevant. Still steamrolls your counter of "Base Asta couldn't touch Dante," Which was a nice try for a strawman by you. As current Base Asta with the devil arm is a completely different animal. Also, I said black form 2 black divider asta. Which he should still be able to use, he just can't use union. Asta can't be useless in the fight according to your own argument of the heart being a weakpoint to arcane or saint stage users. Asta is arcane, could access black form 2 black divider, yet he and liebe both sit out because they believe to be useless in the battle without union. They can't be considered useless according to your "weakpoint" argument. But them and the manga directly contradict it.

You just keep saying "you didn't even read my post" when you don't even substantiate it well to begin with. And once again, Luck never killed the mid-rankers regardless of what you claim. They were confused that he managed to hurt them like that to begin with, but they're not dead, otherwise they wouldn't have reacted to what he did.

Neither Zagred, Megicula, nor Zenon died immediately after their hearts were destroyed. Both Megicula and Zenon had just a few moments after to think or talk. That brief moment before death is what those mid-rankers are experiencing. So we have the implication of Dryad's statement, backed up by Spirit Guardians killing mid-rankers, and a confirmation by Lucifero himself that Mereoleona can end his life. Lucifero's statement alone makes the "Only saint/arcane stage can kill devils" very stinky. But when we know that the whole point of her training was to overcome the barrier of her magic not being able to affect things, she trains with natures magic (similar to true magic which absorbs large swathes of natures mana), and then her new ability breaks that barrier confirmed by the Devil King himself. When we also add the fact that Hellfire Incarnate draws Mereoleona closer to mana, this draws a direct relation between them. Dryad instructed humans to use True magic (Natures mana) to use ultimate magic which draws them closer to mana. Whereas Mereoleona bathed in nature's mana, and used hellfire incarnate which brought her closer to mana.

I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous, especially stuff like the whole "Asta needing Union" thing, to the point that I'm starting to believe you're deliberately creating these interpretations to try and support a flimsy argument.

You're ridiculous. Your argument of the heart being the weak point because weakened Noelle thought she was going to destroy it is contradicted by Asta being useless without Union and Gaja thinking to himself that HE would kill megicula, not Noelle. Lucifero thinking Mereoleona can end him completely ruins your argument that you must be Arcane or saint to kill devils mid and higher. With the fact that Gaja believed UM would kill Megicula, the implication from Dryad, and the spirit guardians literally taking out mid-rankers (that's a mid-ranker that's down in chapter 311. He has the same body structure as the other mid-rankers.) There is far more evidence in support for my argument. The heart is not the weak point of a devil in your sense of the word. Ultimate Magic can kill devils mid-rank and above.

It's funny that you've completely walked back on the Mereoleona point because you have no viable counterargument against it.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

I agree 100 percent with DragonGamerZ913.

He's incorrect on nearly every point of his original argument.

 

[CloverDragon03]

He's incorrect on nearly every point of his original argument.

You literally are using headcanons and factually incorrect info and somehow I'm the one that's incorrect. Like the whole "Dryad said this before they started learning Ultimate Magic" even though Dryad was there when Patry was explaining Ultimate Magic to the squad so she would in fact know about it. Or the fact that you're using Asta needing Union as a heart durability feat when he stands no chance against Megicula in his base form, otherwise even if "he couldn't destroy her heart" he'd still be able to fight Megicula. In fact, Asta's Anti-Magic being able to kill a devil despite its weak power in his base form is supported by Nacht's statement that even without Devil Union, Anti-Magic is bound to be useful. Keep in mind that Asta couldn't even go Black Asta either.

Also, I didn't further address the Mereoleona point because it hinges on what you said about Ultimate Magic, so dealing with that point deals with the Mereoleona point too. As said before, the whole "drawing physically closer to mana" bit is not literal. It has to do with the Heart Kingdom squad being able to use natural mana via Mana Method and True Magic, which is how they'll be able to artificially use Ultimate Magic. As such, it's completely incomparable to Mereoleona's situation of completely becoming mana itself.

Not gonna elaborate too much on chapter 311, just know that the downed devil looks exactly like a low-rank devil. The mid-rankers have more elaborate designs, and that perfectly correlates with the devils that are walking out and not down.

Also, for the final time, Luck did not kill the mid-rankers. Even taking into account everything you said, he did not attack where the heart would be for any of these devils. He ripped off their heads except for one, which he bisected through the stomach, which is not where the heart would be. And before you say "the hearts could be located elsewhere," every devil we've seen has had their heart located in their chest area. Only Zagred has been able to move his heart, and that was due to his magic itself, especially proven by the fact that no other devil moved their hearts to avoid a lethal blow. So yeah, Luck did not kill them.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

You literally are using headcanons and factually incorrect info and somehow I'm the one that's incorrect. Like the whole "Dryad said this before they started learning Ultimate Magic" even though Dryad was there when Patry was explaining Ultimate Magic to the squad so she would in fact know about it. Or the fact that you're using Asta needing Union as a heart durability feat when he stands no chance against Megicula in his base form, otherwise even if "he couldn't destroy her heart" he'd still be able to fight Megicula. In fact, Asta's Anti-Magic being able to kill a devil despite its weak power in his base form is supported by Nacht's statement that even without Devil Union, Anti-Magic is bound to be useful. Keep in mind that Asta couldn't even go Black Asta either.

Lol. Dryad's statement is HER statement before HEART SQUAD learned ultimate magic. I'm not saying that the Dryad HERSELF Learned of Ultimate Magic. I can't even fathom how you got this when I said over and over again that she is the one talking about how they can learn ultimate magic. Asta being useless certainly provides evidence to my argument. As he wouldn't be useless in the battle IF he could destroy the heart.

I'll admit I misread about Asta being able to go black form. But, Nacht's statement does nothing to support your argument. In the same scan, you provide it shows that there are no other devils of notable power. There is Morris and the Dark Triad in the area. But there is no Megicula or Devil Zenon. This is in 291 long before either of those instances. So you cannot extend this statement to Asta defeating Megicula because she wasn't even around at the time of this statement.

Also, I didn't further address the Mereoleona point because it hinges on what you said about Ultimate Magic, so dealing with that point deals with the Mereoleona point too. As said before, the whole "drawing physically closer to mana" bit is not literal. It has to do with the Heart Kingdom squad being able to use natural mana via Mana Method and True Magic, which is how they'll be able to artificially use Ultimate Magic. As such, it's completely incomparable to Mereoleona's situation of completely becoming mana itself.

"It's completely incomparable? This is really just proving that you are not reading my comments OR just being very disingenuous. They are very obviously comparable. "Physically draw closer to mana." What is there to not take literal about this? This sounds like YOUR headcanon.

"By making free use of the Mana Method in the Heart Kingdom, You acquired True Magic That use enormous amount of natural mana." She then explains the importance of true magic (In other words). "In other words, You can use more magic than you actually have. That means there's a chance you'll be able to artificially use Ultimate Magic."
This confirms that it isn't True Magic itself that allows them to use ultimate magic. But it is what True Magic does. Allows them to use large amounts of Nature's Mana. More than they can possess themselves. This is what allows them to use ultimate magic, which is stated by the Dryad to be getting closer to mana. Mereo doesn't have True Magic. But she has Mana Zone. Mana Zone which absorbs nature's mana. Now what does Mereo do? She bathes in the hot lava of Nature's mana in the grand magic region seen here in 275. This allows her to, "...use more magic than you (she) actually have...". She then physically draws closer to mana (No matter how much you keep ignoring this statement by Adramalech). The Spade rebel thinks "It's as if she has become one with mana." Which is similar enough to Adramalech's statement. Because he's saying it's as if, not that she literally has. Via this technique that step-by-step, matches Ultimate magic, and it makes her able to kill Lucifero according to himself, paired with all of the other evidence about UM, it can kill devils.

Not gonna elaborate too much on chapter 311, just know that the downed devil looks exactly like a low-rank devil. The mid-rankers have more elaborate designs, and that perfectly correlates with the devils that are walking out and not down.

The devil down on the left has the same head shape and elongated arms as the other mid-rankers. We don't see the added detail because they've been taken out. They're laying on the ground.

Also, for the final time, Luck did not kill the mid-rankers. Even taking into account everything you said, he did not attack where the heart would be for any of these devils. He ripped off their heads except for one, which he bisected through the stomach, which is not where the heart would be. And before you say "the hearts could be located elsewhere," every devil we've seen has had their heart located in their chest area. Only Zagred has been able to move his heart, and that was due to his magic itself, especially proven by the fact that no other devil moved their hearts to avoid a lethal blow. So yeah, Luck did not kill them.

Actually, the tentacle devil was struck where the heart could be. I'm not saying that Luck killed the mid-rankers literally on that panel. But Luck wouldn't just leave them behind if they didn't die. They aren't there when the manga returns to the same scene where Luck bodied them. With Luck literally mirroring the same ability typeset as Mereo (More mana than naturally can hold, becoming physically closer to mana) And this makes Mereo able to kill Lucifero, then it means Luck can kill the mid-rankers. Especially when paired with: Gaja thinks to himself that UM can kill Megicula, Dryad implication of UM able to kill mid-rankers and higher.


Let us not remember that the crux of your theory revolves around a single statement from Noelle (despite an anti-statement from arcane Asta being useless) and a vague gesture by Gaja (Which is contradicted by his own thoughts) which was extrapolated into being an entire devised plan. The source material debunks your multitude of claims that only saint or arcane users can kill devils mid-rank or higher. As Mereo does this despite being neither, via using an ability that step-by-step matches the description of ultimate magic, which is also implied by a god that it can kill devils mid and above.

More evidence is that the Spirit Guardians are tired after their fight. It really wouldn't make sense for them to be that tired against ONLY low-rank devils for what wouldn't be that long of a battle. We know that Zagred is a high-rank. We know that mid-rank is massively above low-rank, and a logical assumption is that there would be a massive gap between mid-rank and high-rank as well. This is further supported since we know that Supreme-rank are way above high-rank, as even the weakest supreme devils (Lilith and Naamah) Dwarfed the power of Zagred. Also, even the gaps between a single level of the supreme-devils are seemingly high as well. Low-rankings are far weaker than mid-rankers, and those mid-rankers should be far weaker than Zagred. So if these were low-rank devils, the Spirit Guardians should have no issue, even with waves of them approaching. Strong people can struggle with groups, but only when the groups have members with relative power power or a hax. But Loro even brings up that high stages can defeat entire armies of lesser mages, and then it shows Zenon no diffing 2 generals (Who were stated to be captain level) and diamond army. Also with Vetto bodying 50 magic knights at once, while not even at full-power, even with some high-level knights included in the slaughter. The Spirit Guardians were Stage 0 before the timeskip, would have gotten stronger over 6 months, and then got even more powerful training with Dryad and then Ultimate magic on top of it. The Spirit Guardians (pre-TS) Scale even above some clover captains, if not most . Valkyrie Armor Noelle being stage 1 and bodying Elf Fana who had more magic power than captains. This is confirmed when in the anime canon, they say they need to be above Vice-captain power to be Stage 1 (Senior 1st class is same rank as Vice-captain). This means pre-TS captain level is stage 1. This means that Spirit Guardians are at least relative to Zagred. The waves of low-rankers shouldn't give any of the Post-TS Guardians trouble, let alone four of them. It makes far more sense that there were plenty of mid-rankers and even some high-rankers. The Spirit Guardians have nigh-infinite stamina against lesser opponents.

 

[Deceived3596]

Lol. Dryad's statement is HER statement before HEART SQUAD learned ultimate magic. I'm not saying that the Dryad HERSELF Learned of Ultimate Magic. I can't even fathom how you got this when I said over and over again that she is the one talking about how they can learn ultimate magic. Asta being useless certainly provides evidence to my argument. As he wouldn't be useless in the battle IF he could destroy the heart.

I'll admit I misread about Asta being able to go black form. But, Nacht's statement does nothing to support your argument. In the same scan, you provide it shows that there are no other devils of notable power. There is Morris and the Dark Triad in the area. But there is no Megicula or Devil Zenon. This is in 291 long before either of those instances. So you cannot extend this statement to Asta defeating Megicula because she wasn't even around at the time of this statement.

"It's completely incomparable? This is really just proving that you are not reading my comments OR just being very disingenuous. They are very obviously comparable. "Physically draw closer to mana." What is there to not take literal about this? This sounds like YOUR headcanon.

"By making free use of the Mana Method in the Heart Kingdom, You acquired True Magic That use enormous amount of natural mana." She then explains the importance of true magic (In other words). "In other words, You can use more magic than you actually have. That means there's a chance you'll be able to artificially use Ultimate Magic."
This confirms that it isn't True Magic itself that allows them to use ultimate magic. But it is what True Magic does. Allows them to use large amounts of Nature's Mana. More than they can possess themselves. This is what allows them to use ultimate magic, which is stated by the Dryad to be getting closer to mana. Mereo doesn't have True Magic. But she has Mana Zone. Mana Zone which absorbs nature's mana. Now what does Mereo do? She bathes in the hot lava of Nature's mana in the grand magic region seen here in 275. This allows her to, "...use more magic than you (she) actually have...". She then physically draws closer to mana (No matter how much you keep ignoring this statement by Adramalech). The Spade rebel thinks "It's as if she has become one with mana." Which is similar enough to Adramalech's statement. Because he's saying it's as if, not that she literally has. Via this technique that step-by-step, matches Ultimate magic, and it makes her able to kill Lucifero according to himself, paired with all of the other evidence about UM, it can kill devils.

The devil down on the left has the same head shape and elongated arms as the other mid-rankers. We don't see the added detail because they've been taken out. They're laying on the ground.


Actually, the tentacle devil was struck where the heart could be. I'm not saying that Luck killed the mid-rankers literally on that panel. But Luck wouldn't just leave them behind if they didn't die. They aren't there when the manga returns to the same scene where Luck bodied them. With Luck literally mirroring the same ability typeset as Mereo (More mana than naturally can hold, becoming physically closer to mana) And this makes Mereo able to kill Lucifero, then it means Luck can kill the mid-rankers. Especially when paired with: Gaja thinks to himself that UM can kill Megicula, Dryad implication of UM able to kill mid-rankers and higher.


Let us not remember that the crux of your theory revolves around a single statement from Noelle (despite an anti-statement from arcane Asta being useless) and a vague gesture by Gaja (Which is contradicted by his own thoughts) which was extrapolated into being an entire devised plan. The source material debunks your multitude of claims that only saint or arcane users can kill devils mid-rank or higher. As Mereo does this despite being neither, via using an ability that step-by-step matches the description of ultimate magic, which is also implied by a god that it can kill devils mid and above.

More evidence is that the Spirit Guardians are tired after their fight. It really wouldn't make sense for them to be that tired against ONLY low-rank devils for what wouldn't be that long of a battle. We know that Zagred is a high-rank. We know that mid-rank is massively above low-rank, and a logical assumption is that there would be a massive gap between mid-rank and high-rank as well. This is further supported since we know that Supreme-rank are way above high-rank, as even the weakest supreme devils (Lilith and Naamah) Dwarfed the power of Zagred. Also, even the gaps between a single level of the supreme-devils are seemingly high as well. Low-rankings are far weaker than mid-rankers, and those mid-rankers should be far weaker than Zagred. So if these were low-rank devils, the Spirit Guardians should have no issue, even with waves of them approaching. Strong people can struggle with groups, but only when the groups have members with relative power power or a hax. But Loro even brings up that high stages can defeat entire armies of lesser mages, and then it shows Zenon no diffing 2 generals (Who were stated to be captain level) and diamond army. Also with Vetto bodying 50 magic knights at once, while not even at full-power, even with some high-level knights included in the slaughter. The Spirit Guardians were Stage 0 before the timeskip, would have gotten stronger over 6 months, and then got even more powerful training with Dryad and then Ultimate magic on top of it. The Spirit Guardians (pre-TS) Scale even above some clover captains, if not most . Valkyrie Armor Noelle being stage 1 and bodying Elf Fana who had more magic power than captains. This is confirmed when in the anime canon, they say they need to be above Vice-captain power to be Stage 1 (Senior 1st class is same rank as Vice-captain). This means pre-TS captain level is stage 1. This means that Spirit Guardians are at least relative to Zagred. The waves of low-rankers shouldn't give any of the Post-TS Guardians trouble, let alone four of them. It makes far more sense that there were plenty of mid-rankers and even some high-rankers. The Spirit Guardians have nigh-infinite stamina against lesser opponents.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well I agree with CloverDragon

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Clover Dragon

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Lol. I'm looking forward to when the series has to blatantly spoonfeed to you all that Ultimate Magic can kill devils mid-rank and higher. The bias is real here. Peace.

 

[Worthless]

Lol. I'm looking forward to when the series has to blatantly spoonfeed to you all that Ultimate Magic can kill devils mid-rank and higher. The bias is real here. Peace.

Same with conceptual manipulation for lucifero I'm gonna f insult all of em if the future chapter confirmed that he also can

 

[Deceived3596]

Lol. I'm looking forward to when the series has to blatantly spoonfeed to you all that Ultimate Magic can kill devils mid-rank and higher. The bias is real here. Peace.

Same with conceptual manipulation for lucifero I'm gonna f insult all of em if the future chapter confirmed that he also can

L

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well if the OP is done and there’s a ton of disagreements including 4 staff disagreements, I think this can be closed.