Devil Hearts > Devil durability

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This thread here claimed that devil hearts durability are lesser than the devil's overall durability. It seems to have been accepted, but I want to go through each of those points and show why that claim is actually incorrect.

1. The devil's heart is considered a weak point. Why would the heart be more durable than the rest of the body if it was considered a weak point? Now, you could say it still makes sense to be a weak point given that destroying it kills the devil. However, that's where the next point comes in.
2. Noelle firmly believed that a Saint Stage attack, even if it was weak, would be enough to destroy Megicula's heart. This aligns with the devil's heart being a weak point, and it contradicts the idea of the devil's heart being more durable than the body.
3. Compounding all of this is Noelle referring to the heart as an "exposed weak point" after Gaja vaporizes it. This point is somewhat less solid, but basically when she says this, it directly flashes back to when Licht used Conquering Eon to destroy Zagred's body and it exposed his heart. It basically shows that the attack didn't destroy his heart for the sole reason that it simply destroyed his body and just left the heart exposed. Basically, Licht really should've gone for the kill.


The entire reason for Noelle considering it a weak point is because it is the only way to kill a devil. Now could it possibly mean that she meant it to be an overall weak point, as in, it's weaker in durability than the devil body? Yes. That is possible. But when you fully explore the evidence then that thread doesn't hold water.

If we look at each instance of three devil hearts we've seen destroyed, we can get a better look at what this really means. In each instance, it took new power-ups or renewed power to destroy said devil hearts.

1. Asta vs Zagred. The devil heart was exposed, yet Asta needed to surpass his limits with his biggest black divider and destroy the heart. Asta could easily damage Zagred with Black Divider prior to this, but felt the need to break his limits to actually destroy the heart.

2. Noelle vs Megicula. While the original thread has Noelle in a weaker state wanting to attack Megicula's exposed heart, when she actually deals the final killing blow, she has regained a lot of her power thanks to inspiration from Asta. Feats > statements, and it took Noelle's spirit dive to do the deed.

3. Yuno vs Zenon. Yuno after already getting amped with star magic, pairs it with his wind in a spirit dive zephyr. Though he gains a higher resonance with Bell and achieves saint spirit dive. He didn't JUST get a holy power, he also got a power boost. As the narrator says "The Stronger the mage the more stars are born." So Yuno got a holy power + an amp to his power to defeat Devil Zenon by destroying his heart.

To go in tandem with this point is the many pieces of evidence showing the devil hearts having more durability than the bodies. Like, for example, Nozel easily destroying Megicula's body and then not destroying the heart, albeit seemingly damaging it by chipping away at the heart in chapter 303 pg. 10-11.

Langris offensive spatial magic easily wiping away Zenon's body, but not his heart. Chapter 308 pg. 3/5

Now, you might say that this is because the devil heart can only be destroyed by arcane or saint stage mages. But this is actually NOT supported by the manga anymore. There has been mass confusion with the arcane system and is explained well in this video.

The Dryad statement in chapter 284 pg. 8-9 "With low-level devils, if you use a tone of mana you can mow them down even if you're NOT arcane stage. The problem is the devils who are mid-level and higher!!" There are different meanings for this. If you are just vastly strong, you can kill mid-levels and higher, as Luck just straight up kills 4 mid-rank devils directly after this statement. Though it could also mean that ultimate magic users can kill mid-rank and higher. Remember "Mid-level and higher" would include high-rankers and Supreme-rank devils. Zagred, Megicula, and would also apply to Zenon.

We see both Luck and Gaja's ultimate magic on Megicula. It obliterates her body but doesn't destroy her heart (Chapter 299). Mind you Gaja HIMSELF thinks that with the UM he can kill Megicula. "I'll convert my very life into magic, and I will destroy the devil who caused all of this." Since Dryad saidUltimate magic, is implied to have the ability to kill mid-level and higher devils, Gaja would also have this knowledge. This means that by the very nature of the attack, and the heart being the only thing left, means that the heart has higher durability than the body.

The same logic would apply for Licht's UM spell. Though this is a double-play, as Licht is also arcane. We have to remember that arcane users are defined by their ability to kill devils or affect the underworld, as stated by Zagred in chapter 211. "dark magic can interfere with the underworld." And remember that Secre became arcane by abusing forbidden magic from the other world. Given this statement by Zagred in chapter 206: "It blew apart magic from that world which swallows magic from this one. One who used a forbidden spell of the highest order. And another who absorbed his magic. In other words, they've been affected by that world." This meets the requirement for them being arcane. Remember they wouldn't be mentioned as arcane at the time, as that term wouldn't even be introduced into the series until 20 chapters later. But with how their magic effects Zagred and his spells, and the statement and similarities to the other arcane stages, Licht and Lumiere are arcane mages.

But Licht also used Ultimate magic on Zagred, an ability that is implied by the Dryad to be able to kill mid-level devils and higher. The spell destroy's Zagred's body, but doesn't kill him as it doesn't damage his heart. Based on the nature of the blast and how it completely eroded the rest of the body, the attack definitely connected with the heart, but was NOT strong enough to destroy it. Meaning the heart durability > the body.

The OP also has some erroneous points defending his thread in the comments:

To be honest, I'm actually reconsidering if Licht's Ultimate Sword Magic even is arcane stage. Yeah, he was affected by the underworld and can destroy Zagred's underworld spells, but Yuno did that with Spirit of Zephyr and he's still just Stage 0 at the time. Plus, after Zagred says "You can't kill me," he also thinks to himself "not with magic from this world." That implies that Licht's magic isn't actually arcane stage.

This point isn't a great one. We have to remember that Yuno created the Zephyr spell from the dregs of Licht and Lumiere's magic (ch. 208 pg. 12-13). Licht and Lumiere, are both arcane. This is why the sword works, it's formed from their arcane power. It's just not strong enough even with that.

I don't think it is. I think it's in a similar position to Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr, as it took in Licht's magic yet Zagred said it can't destroy his heart.

Again, This would just mean that it still isn't strong enough. Licht had the power of the elves combined and couldn't destroy the heart, despite having UM and being arcane. Yuno's Zephyr just still wasn't strong enough. He could destroy Zagred's spells, but he struggled cutting even Zagred's body with it, until Yami's DS cut it up.

Furthermore, the source of power in a devil is it's heart. This is where Yami is getting all of his new mana from in the current chapters where he's like a devil. This is also what drives the power of Zenon once he gains it. This would act as an additional explanation for it to be stronger than the body.

TLDR:
We've never seen a weak arcane/saint kill a devil heart, despite noelle's claim. Noelle's weakpoint claim likely is attributed to the heart being the only way to kill a devil. Ultimate magic is implied by the tree deity who has vast knowledge and prophecies, to be a way to kill mid-level devils and higher. Which is then affirmed, when Luck kills Mid-rank devils. Yet, on multiple occasions, devil hearts have survived UM attacks when the bodies were destroyed. This gives more feats for devil hearts being stronger, versus a vague statement by Noelle.

 

[KingTempest]

This needs a discussion rule

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

This needs a discussion rule

??

 

[Deceived3596]

Can't really comment on this since i'm not that familiar with Black Clover but a general rule of thumb with creating CRT's, an by extension arguments for your positions, should always be supported through actual scans/evidence. But the OP lacks these essential pieces of evidence, so if i were you i would get all the scans that support my assertions and link them within the OP.

Just a helpful rule of thumb from a CRT creator to another. Will save you from a massive future headache.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Got it. Will add edit and add scans tomorrow.

 

[KingTempest]

??

this has been discussed too many times already

 

[Worthless]

I agree with you that DH > Devil durability and the other reasoning but except with this:

There are different meanings for this. If you are just vastly strong, you can kill mid-levels and higher, as Luck just straight up kills 4 mid-rank devils directly after this statement.

And langris is the example of that that being strong doesn't mean shit to devil heart

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

I'm just saying that is one of the possibilities. It doesn't seem very likely, as I said. The statement from Dryad should mean UM can kill devils mid-rank and up.

 

[Worthless]

Nevermind

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I looked over the points and I believe that there is strong evidence that devils hearts have higher durability due to luck being able to kill mid level devils without being arcane.
So I've come to the conclusion that saint stage and specifically only saint stage has the power to basically durability negate a devils heart by purifying it which clears all the contradictions with both view points.
Basically you just need to treat saint stage as separate from arcane and ultimate magic where arcane and ultimates require AP while saint doesn't.
Overall I agree.

 

[Worthless]

So I've come to the conclusion that saint stage and specifically only saint stage has the power to basically durability negate a devils heart by purifying it which clears all the contradictions with both view points.

I've already said that but no one listen

Basically you just need to treat saint stage as separate from arcane and ultimate magic where arcane and ultimates require AP while saint doesn't.

I think this depends on what type of arcane we are talking if langris magic is fuse with devils mana and thus become an arcane he would easily be able to destroy a devil heart maybe even 100% heart of luci.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I've already said that but no one listen

I think this depends on what type of arcane we are talking if langris magic is fuse with devils mana and thus become an arcane he would easily be able to destroy a devil heart maybe even 100% heart of luci.

Nah I'm pretty sure that's head canon unless you have proof that a durability negating arcane can one shot devil hearts with higher durability.

 

[Epsilon_R]

this has been discussed too many times already

Actually it has been discussed only once. The other topics regarding Devil Hearts were about Black Divider scaling to the heart and not really about the heart being more durable than the body

 

[Lynieryz]

Agree fra

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

@KingTempest
Tag dragon gamer man. He us the one who needs to be here.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest
Tag dragon gamer man. He us the one who needs to be here.

hmph

@CloverDragon03

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh god here we go again. Okay, so right off the bat I'm seeing a lot of straight-up dismissal of the Arcane/Saint Stage requirement. I mean, the whole Langris bit onwards is basically trying to argue "well this thing that's been emphasized by the manga over and over again actually isn't valid." Guess I'll go through these one by one.

1. Asta vs Zagred. The devil heart was exposed, yet Asta needed to surpass his limits with his biggest black divider and destroy the heart. Asta could easily damage Zagred with Black Divider prior to this, but felt the need to break his limits to actually destroy the heart.

Asta "breaking his limits" here was, as Secre put it right before, him being able to draw out his Anti-Magic power. Just before, he'd been forced out of his Black Asta form due to the strain it and Black Divider put on his body. His limit break was him being able to re-enter that form and use Black Divider again. This is a simple misinterpretation of what Asta's limit break was.

2. Noelle vs Megicula. While the original thread has Noelle in a weaker state wanting to attack Megicula's exposed heart, when she actually deals the final killing blow, she has regained a lot of her power thanks to inspiration from Asta. Feats > statements, and it took Noelle's spirit dive to do the deed.

Noelle only needed a bit of Saint Stage power at first because Gaja had already destroyed Megicula's body and thus, the heart was exposed. You could say this was also the case with when she killed Megicula, thanks to Nozel, but here's the thing: In the former case, Noelle's Spirit Dive had run out so she was struggling to muster much Saint Stage power. In the latter case, she was already locked in battle with Megicula after managing to use Spirit Dive once more. These cases are not comparable, and it has nothing to do with Noelle "needing Spirit Dive to do the deed." That was simply the state she was in due to already being in battle with Megicula in her Spirit Dive at the time.

3. Yuno vs Zenon. Yuno after already getting amped with star magic, pairs it with his wind in a spirit dive zephyr. Though he gains a higher resonance with Bell and achieves saint spirit dive. He didn't JUST get a holy power, he also got a power boost. As the narrator says "The Stronger the mage the more stars are born." So Yuno got a holy power + an amp to his power to defeat Devil Zenon by destroying his heart.

"The stronger the mage, the more stars are born" has to do with Yuno's strength itself, not Yuno supposedly getting stronger via Saint Stage. Saint Stage is not a direct power boost, it's more of an ability than anything else. Also, none of this actually implies that a high level of power is needed to destroy a devil's heart. As for regular Spirit of Zephyr, I'll explain that in a moment.

To go in tandem with this point is the many pieces of evidence showing the devil hearts having more durability than the bodies. Like, for example, Nozel easily destroying Megicula's body and then not destroying the heart, albeit seemingly damaging it by chipping away at the heart in chapter 303 pg. 10-11.

Langris offensive spatial magic easily wiping away Zenon's body, but not his heart. Chapter 308 pg. 3/5

Now, you might say that this is because the devil heart can only be destroyed by arcane or saint stage mages. But this is actually NOT supported by the manga anymore. There has been mass confusion with the arcane system and is explained well in this video.

Okay, a ton of things to unpack here. First of all, Nozel was not chipping away at the heart at all. I checked those pages, and I'm really not sure where you got that idea from. This is just another case of "Nozel isn't Arcane or Saint Stage, so he can't do anything to it."

Same goes for Langris, and his magic negates durability, so not even dura neg works if it's not Arcane or Saint Stage, proving this even further. Zenon even says: "Even Spatial Magic that erases everything cannot destroy the devil's heart."

Also, you can't just go claiming that something repeatedly emphasized by the manga suddenly isn't supported anymore via fallacious claims. That video is equally fallacious.

The Dryad statement in chapter 284 pg. 8-9 "With low-level devils, if you use a tone of mana you can mow them down even if you're NOT arcane stage. The problem is the devils who are mid-level and higher!!" There are different meanings for this. If you are just vastly strong, you can kill mid-levels and higher, as Luck just straight up kills 4 mid-rank devils directly after this statement. Though it could also mean that ultimate magic users can kill mid-rank and higher. Remember "Mid-level and higher" would include high-rankers and Supreme-rank devils. Zagred, Megicula, and would also apply to Zenon.

I can see why you think this way, but the only problem is: Luck did not kill those devils with Ultimate Magic. Even when they're dismembered, they've got question marks floating above their heads. They're shocked/confused that Luck blitzed them and did this. Compounding this is the fact that a devil's body has always disintegrated whenever their heart is destroyed. This has applied to Zagred, Megicula, and Zenon, yet it didn't happen to these devils, further proving that they're not dead.

This further confirms that "the problem" Dryad refers to is that you can't just pour in a ton of power to kill mid-rank devils or higher, you actually have to be Arcane or Saint Stage. If you could just pour in a ton of power, there would be no point in requiring Arcane and Saint Stage mages to kill devils, nor would there be a point in Loropechika saying "not even Stage 0 mages can defeat a devil."

We see both Luck and Gaja's ultimate magic on Megicula. It obliterates her body but doesn't destroy her heart (Chapter 299). Mind you Gaja HIMSELF thinks that with the UM he can kill Megicula. "I'll convert my very life into magic, and I will destroy the devil who caused all of this." Since Dryad saidUltimate magic, is implied to have the ability to kill mid-level and higher devils, Gaja would also have this knowledge. This means that by the very nature of the attack, and the heart being the only thing left, means that the heart has higher durability than the body.

Gaja sent out a signal to Noelle before using his Ultimate Magic. Given that Noelle immediately goes for that Saint Stage kill after Gaja uses his Ultimate Magic, it's very reasonable to believe that the signal was for Noelle to finish off Megicula once he destroyed her body. Also, as I just established, Ultimate Magic in itself is not capable of destroying a devil's heart. Again, it's a case of Gaja not being Arcane or Saint Stage.

The same logic would apply for Licht's UM spell. Though this is a double-play, as Licht is also arcane. We have to remember that arcane users are defined by their ability to kill devils or affect the underworld, as stated by Zagred in chapter 211. "dark magic can interfere with the underworld." And remember that Secre became arcane by abusing forbidden magic from the other world. Given this statement by Zagred in chapter 206: "It blew apart magic from that world which swallows magic from this one. One who used a forbidden spell of the highest order. And another who absorbed his magic. In other words, they've been affected by that world." This meets the requirement for them being arcane. Remember they wouldn't be mentioned as arcane at the time, as that term wouldn't even be introduced into the series until 20 chapters later. But with how their magic effects Zagred and his spells, and the statement and similarities to the other arcane stages, Licht and Lumiere are arcane mages.

But Licht also used Ultimate magic on Zagred, an ability that is implied by the Dryad to be able to kill mid-level devils and higher. The spell destroy's Zagred's body, but doesn't kill him as it doesn't damage his heart. Based on the nature of the blast and how it completely eroded the rest of the body, the attack definitely connected with the heart, but was NOT strong enough to destroy it. Meaning the heart durability > the body.

The OP also has some erroneous points defending his thread in the comments:

To be honest, I'm actually reconsidering if Licht's Ultimate Sword Magic even is arcane stage. Yeah, he was affected by the underworld and can destroy Zagred's underworld spells, but Yuno did that with Spirit of Zephyr and he's still just Stage 0 at the time. Plus, after Zagred says "You can't kill me," he also thinks to himself "not with magic from this world." That implies that Licht's magic isn't actually arcane stage.

This point isn't a great one. We have to remember that Yuno created the Zephyr spell from the dregs of Licht and Lumiere's magic (ch. 208 pg. 12-13). Licht and Lumiere, are both arcane. This is why the sword works, it's formed from their arcane power. It's just not strong enough even with that.

I don't think it is. I think it's in a similar position to Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr, as it took in Licht's magic yet Zagred said it can't destroy his heart.

Again, This would just mean that it still isn't strong enough. Licht had the power of the elves combined and couldn't destroy the heart, despite having UM and being arcane. Yuno's Zephyr just still wasn't strong enough. He could destroy Zagred's spells, but he struggled cutting even Zagred's body with it, until Yami's DS cut it up.

All this is what I'm gonna bring up Spirit of Zephyr for. So, I've already established several times that this is a case of needing to be Arcane or Saint Stage. Now, for Licht, it's pretty complicated. Zagred regards Licht's magic as being "magic from this world," already implying it's not Arcane. In addition, Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr, which takes in Licht's magic, was stated by Zagred to be unable to destroy his heart. This is brought up again much later, where (despite having Spirit of Zephyr), Zenon claims that Yuno has no way to destroy his heart. Since I've shown time and time again that the only way to destroy a devil's heart is through Arcane or Saint Stage magic, this indicates that Spirit of Zephyr is not Arcane, and thus Licht's magic isn't Arcane since Spirit of Zephyr uses it, which explains why Licht can't destroy Zagred's heart.

Furthermore, the source of power in a devil is it's heart. This is where Yami is getting all of his new mana from in the current chapters where he's like a devil. This is also what drives the power of Zenon once he gains it. This would act as an additional explanation for it to be stronger than the body.

This doesn't actually prove the devil's heart is more durable. Being a source of one's power doesn't do that at all.

TLDR:
We've never seen a weak arcane/saint kill a devil heart, despite noelle's claim. Noelle's weakpoint claim likely is attributed to the heart being the only way to kill a devil. Ultimate magic is implied by the tree deity who has vast knowledge and prophecies, to be a way to kill mid-level devils and higher. Which is then affirmed, when Luck kills Mid-rank devils. Yet, on multiple occasions, devil hearts have survived UM attacks when the bodies were destroyed. This gives more feats for devil hearts being stronger, versus a vague statement by Noelle.

Overall, this argument relies on several misinterpretations of both statements and moments in the manga. For instance, Ultimate Magic cannot destroy a devil heart without being Arcane or Saint Stage. That's one such misinterpretation, as Luck never actually killed those devils. Every feat mentioned is such a misinterpretation, and once those are all out, we're left with the numerous statements that Arcane or Saint Stage is needed to destroy a devil's heart, plus Noelle's statement about it the devil's heart being a weak point.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I just need to say some this

«Zagred regards Licht's magic as being "magic from this world," already implying it's not Arcane»

Now, you know that you can be arcane without having magic from the world, Yami is one of many examples. His magic is arcane because it interferes with the underworld, but it doesn't come from the underworld. Nero's affected by the underworld (forbidden magic) just like Licht, and Zagred treated it as Magic from this world, worthless one at that. Despite that, she is still considered to be Arcane.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I just need to say some this

«Zagred regards Licht's magic as being "magic from this world," already implying it's not Arcane»

Now, you know that you can be arcane without having magic from the world, Yami is one of many examples. His magic is arcane because it interferes with the underworld, but it doesn't come from the underworld. Nero's affected by the underworld (forbidden magic) just like Licht, while her magic is from the normal world. Despite that, she is still considered to be Arcane.

That is more support than anything else, but you're right. The other stuff still applies though

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Oh, luck didn't kill the mid grades, this instantly kills this argument. Disagree for the above reasons.

 

[Worthless]

I just need to say some this

«Zagred regards Licht's magic as being "magic from this world," already implying it's not Arcane»

Now, you know that you can be arcane without having magic from the world, Yami is one of many examples. His magic is arcane because it interferes with the underworld, but it doesn't come from the underworld. Nero's affected by the underworld (forbidden magic) just like Licht, and Zagred treated it as Magic from this world, worthless one at that. Despite that, she is still considered to be Arcane.

You gotta stop right there nero is an arcane that was already confirmed by lolopechka and the reason why Dark magic can affect Devils is because the power of the underworld dwells in his magic similar to nero and litch who the reason why they are an arcane was because of this underworld power

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Oh god here we go again. Okay, so right off the bat I'm seeing a lot of straight-up dismissal of the Arcane/Saint Stage requirement. I mean, the whole Langris bit onwards is basically trying to argue "well this thing that's been emphasized by the manga over and over again actually isn't valid." Guess I'll go through these one by one.

Lol, what? You're grossly misinterpreting what I am actually saying. Dryad statement (and FEATS) throws a wrench in the PURE arcane/Saint stage requirement via ultimate magic.

Asta "breaking his limits" here was, as Secre put it right before, him being able to draw out his Anti-Magic power. Just before, he'd been forced out of his Black Asta form due to the strain it and Black Divider put on his body. His limit break was him being able to re-enter that form and use Black Divider again. This is a simple misinterpretation of what Asta's limit break was.

Nope. The limit break was NOT simply reentering that form? Literally, go to chapter 211 and look at the size of his black divider. That is by far the biggest Black Divider he has created at that time. Your interpretation makes little sense, if any. Secre sealed away his physical damage, thus makes no sense for Asta just reusing black divider is a limit break. It's obviously referring to the size and power of Black Divider.

Noelle only needed a bit of Saint Stage power at first because Gaja had already destroyed Megicula's body and thus, the heart was exposed. You could say this was also the case with when she killed Megicula, thanks to Nozel, but here's the thing: In the former case, Noelle's Spirit Dive had run out so she was struggling to muster much Saint Stage power. In the latter case, she was already locked in battle with Megicula after managing to use Spirit Dive once more. These cases are not comparable, and it has nothing to do with Noelle "needing Spirit Dive to do the deed." That was simply the state she was in due to already being in battle with Megicula in her Spirit Dive at the time.

My point is that we have yet to see a weak arcane/saint destroy a devil heart. Which lessens the credibility of your argument, since it was never proven to be a "weak point" in your sense of the word.

"The stronger the mage, the more stars are born" has to do with Yuno's strength itself, not Yuno supposedly getting stronger via Saint Stage. Saint Stage is not a direct power boost, it's more of an ability than anything else. Also, none of this actually implies that a high level of power is needed to destroy a devil's heart. As for regular Spirit of Zephyr, I'll explain that in a moment.

This goes against the lore of series + the scaling. So you would really say that Saint Valkyrie is then, not a power boost? Even though in Chapter 296 Vanica sees her as far stronger than before. We see Yuno's growth throughout the entire series based on his cooperation and growth with Bell. Saint stage is a further resonance between the host and spirit, thus would also mean a power boost. The narrator line literally confirms this despite your protests. Yuno's run out of stars, the narrator says "The stronger the mage, the more stars are born," right when he gains saint stage. So your point gets rebuked by the lore and narrator itself. Why would Yuno get more STARS when his saint stage is tied to his WIND? because his power increased from saint stage.

Okay, a ton of things to unpack here. First of all, Nozel was not chipping away at the heart at all. I checked those pages, and I'm really not sure where you got that idea from. This is just another case of "Nozel isn't Arcane or Saint Stage, so he can't do anything to it."

Same goes for Langris, and his magic negates durability, so not even dura neg works if it's not Arcane or Saint Stage, proving this even further. Zenon even says: "Even Spatial Magic that erases everything cannot destroy the devil's heart."

Also, you can't just go claiming that something repeatedly emphasized by the manga suddenly isn't supported anymore via fallacious claims. That video is equally fallacious.

Many people interpret it as Nozel chipping away at Megicula's heart. These are just minor supplementary points, so that's fine.

I can see why you think this way, but the only problem is: Luck did not kill those devils with Ultimate Magic. Even when they're dismembered, they've got question marks floating above their heads. They're shocked/confused that Luck blitzed them and did this. Compounding this is the fact that a devil's body has always disintegrated whenever their heart is destroyed. This has applied to Zagred, Megicula, and Zenon, yet it didn't happen to these devils, further proving that they're not dead.

This further confirms that "the problem" Dryad refers to is that you can't just pour in a ton of power to kill mid-rank devils or higher, you actually have to be Arcane or Saint Stage. If you could just pour in a ton of power, there would be no point in requiring Arcane and Saint Stage mages to kill devils, nor would there be a point in Loropechika saying "not even Stage 0 mages can defeat a devil."

Luck did kill those devils, or did he just leave them behind to resurrect so that they can kill more innocents? No. Actually the manga further supports this in chapter 311. When It shows Spirit Guardians, who learned UM, fighting a horde of Mid-Rank devils. They state, "It doesn't matter how many of them we take out, they just keep coming." As the panel shows more devils coming from the gates in the castle. There are a bunch of dead mid-ranked devils on the ground. The devils had thought bubbles, but that's because beings don't immediately die when the attack happens. Time takes it's toll quickly. But Luck blitzed them. Furthermore, the structure of the chapter shadows the Dryad's dialogue. "With just low-level devils, you can mow them down with a ton of mana," They literally did that the page before, killing a bunch of low-ranks, using a ton of mana, TRUE magic. "But the issue comes with mid-level devils and higher," Luck then uses Ultimate magic to deal with them. You're statement of Loropechka saying that Stage 0 mages can't defeat a devil is not relevant to the topic. Loropechka doesn't know much of the elves, they all had to learn Ultimate Magic AFTER the fact. Loropechka didn't even know about saint stage.

"Ton of mana" is referring to true magic. Whom Dryad refers to as "Enormous amounts of mana". Ultimate magic is a different technique. You, "become acquainted with the origin of souls, and physically draw closer to mana." This isn't just "Ton of mana". So when Dryad says "Ton of mana" Can kill low-level, but "the issue is mid-level and higher" can be dealt with by UM. This is shown with Luck killing the mid-rankers. And the spirit guardians as well, who learned UM.

Gaja sent out a signal to Noelle before using his Ultimate Magic. Given that Noelle immediately goes for that Saint Stage kill after Gaja uses his Ultimate Magic, it's very reasonable to believe that the signal was for Noelle to finish off Megicula once he destroyed her body. Also, as I just established, Ultimate Magic in itself is not capable of destroying a devil's heart. Again, it's a case of Gaja not being Arcane or Saint Stage.

"signal" is very vague. Also contradicted by Gaja HIMSELF thinking he could kill Megicula by empowering his Ultimate Magic by using Life enhanced Ultimate magic. This is because gaja trained with elves and Dryad, the Dryad implying that you can kill mid-rank devils AND ABOVE with UM. Gaja thinking to himself, "I will kill megicula" and uses Ultimate magic >> interpreting his signal as a means for Noelle to strike when the heart is there as a weakpoint.

All this is what I'm gonna bring up Spirit of Zephyr for. So, I've already established several times that this is a case of needing to be Arcane or Saint Stage. Now, for Licht, it's pretty complicated. Zagred regards Licht's magic as being "magic from this world," already implying it's not Arcane. In addition, Yuno's Spirit of Zephyr, which takes in Licht's magic, was stated by Zagred to be unable to destroy his heart. This is brought up again much later, where (despite having Spirit of Zephyr), Zenon claims that Yuno has no way to destroy his heart. Since I've shown time and time again that the only way to destroy a devil's heart is through Arcane or Saint Stage magic, this indicates that Spirit of Zephyr is not Arcane, and thus Licht's magic isn't Arcane since Spirit of Zephyr uses it, which explains why Licht can't destroy Zagred's heart.

Yeah it couldn't cut Zagred's heart because it wasn't strong enough. The thing couldn't even cut his body. Same can apply for Zephyr against Zenon, as Yuno got a power boost from Saint stage no matter the argument you put up. Also, Yuno used the dreg's of licht and lumiere magic to create it initially. But, that doesn't mean it keeps their power in further uses. So that isn't concrete.

This doesn't actually prove the devil's heart is more durable. Being a source of one's power doesn't do that at all.

It doesn't prove it. Though it acts as a piece of supporting evidence.

Overall, this argument relies on several misinterpretations of both statements and moments in the manga. For instance, Ultimate Magic cannot destroy a devil heart without being Arcane or Saint Stage. That's one such misinterpretation, as Luck never actually killed those devils. Every feat mentioned is such a misinterpretation, and once those are all out, we're left with the numerous statements that Arcane or Saint Stage is needed to destroy a devil's heart, plus Noelle's statement about it the devil's heart being a weak point.

You falsely said that Asta Didn't get a powerup with his final black divider on Zagred. You are disregarding statements of Dryad, a literal god of prophecy, who implied that UM can kill mid-level devils and higher, then is shown multiple times to happen by UM users. (Luck and Spirit Guardians)

We never see a weak saint/arcane kills a devil heart. We see two limit breaks kill a devil heart (Yuno, Asta). We also see a reforged power Noelle kill Megicula heart with the help of Nozel and Megicula being nerfed by an amped anti-curse charlotte. Gaja's signal is vague at the meaning, especially when he believe he can kill Megicula as he stated. Especially since he has the knowledge of the Dryad which implied they can kill mid-level and higher devils with UM, and then is affirmed by Luck and Spirit guardians killing mid-rankers in chapter 311.

 

[Nierre]

Neutral leaning towards agreeing with the OP

 

[Worthless]

This can be ended if you all just gonna treated that purification is like durability negation for the devils heart like those undead in other anime their weaknesses is purification that being said i do agree with the OP you'd still need an AP even if you are an arcane or can use UM since Dragon Tamer suggestions is even a fodder from the underworld can destroy a supreme devil heart which sounds so...

 

[Epsilon_R]

You gotta stop right there nero is an arcane that was already confirmed by lolopechka and the reason why Dark magic can affect Devils is because the power of the underworld dwells in his magic similar to nero and litch who the reason why they are an arcane was because of this underworld power

Not only you are wrong in some parts, but you also missed my point which was: you don't need to have magic from the underworld to be arcane. I can name you at least 3 people that are arcane without having magic coming from the underworld

 

[speedster352]

So is the devil's heart weaker or stronger than the body?

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

So is the devil's heart weaker or stronger than the body?

Devil heart is more durable than the body.

 

[speedster352]

Devil heart is more durable than the body.

I agree with this since licht was not able to destroy zagred's heart and other examples with devil bargain Zenon and Megicula

 

[Worthless]

Not only you are wrong in some parts, but you also missed my point which was: you don't need to have magic from the underworld to be arcane. I can name you at least 3 people that are arcane without having magic coming from the underworld

And how is that mean something? You said litch was not an arcane because of zagred statement then use yami as an example of that not knowing the reason why his magic is an arcane is the same reason why litch and secre is an arcane. But can you explain what do you mean by "you don't need underworld power to become an arcane" what are you trying to say? how is that relevant to what we are talking right now?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Nope. The limit break was NOT simply reentering that form? Literally, go to chapter 211 and look at the size of his black divider. That is by far the biggest Black Divider he has created at that time. Your interpretation makes little sense, if any. Secre sealed away his physical damage, thus makes no sense for Asta just reusing black divider is a limit break. It's obviously referring to the size and power of Black Divider.

Incorrect. After healing him, Secre questions if he can draw out his Anti-Magic power still. His limit break was him drawing it out in a scenario where it was questionable if he could even do so.

This goes against the lore of series + the scaling. So you would really say that Saint Valkyrie is then, not a power boost? Even though in Chapter 296 Vanica sees her as far stronger than before. We see Yuno's growth throughout the entire series based on his cooperation and growth with Bell. Saint stage is a further resonance between the host and spirit, thus would also mean a power boost. The narrator line literally confirms this despite your protests. Yuno's run out of stars, the narrator says "The stronger the mage, the more stars are born," right when he gains saint stage. So your point gets rebuked by the lore and narrator itself. Why would Yuno get more STARS when his saint stage is tied to his WIND? because his power increased from saint stage.

Saint Valkyrie Dress is a power-up because it's Spirit Dive, which is stronger than Noelle's ordinary Valkyrie Dress. It being Saint Stage does not make it explicitly a power-up. And even then, in both cases, you're acting as though that power-up was NEEDED to destroy the devil's heart. Yuno didn't have anything that could destroy Zenon's heart because he had nothing Arcane or Saint Stage before Saint Spirit of Zephyr. You keep using that "stars are born" line which really just means that Yuno's overall strength is such that he's able to spawn new stars.

Luck did kill those devils, or did he just leave them behind to resurrect so that they can kill more innocents? No. Actually the manga further supports this in chapter 311. When It shows Spirit Guardians, who learned UM, fighting a horde of Mid-Rank devils. They state, "It doesn't matter how many of them we take out, they just keep coming." As the panel shows more devils coming from the gates in the castle. There are a bunch of dead mid-ranked devils on the ground. The devils had thought bubbles, but that's because beings don't immediately die when the attack happens. Time takes it's toll quickly. But Luck blitzed them. Furthermore, the structure of the chapter shadows the Dryad's dialogue. "With just low-level devils, you can mow them down with a ton of mana," They literally did that the page before, killing a bunch of low-ranks, using a ton of mana, TRUE magic. "But the issue comes with mid-level devils and higher," Luck then uses Ultimate magic to deal with them. You're statement of Loropechka saying that Stage 0 mages can't defeat a devil is not relevant to the topic. Loropechka doesn't know much of the elves, they all had to learn Ultimate Magic AFTER the fact. Loropechka didn't even know about saint stage.

Mid-rank devils weren't the only devils coming out, there are also low-rank devils which can very much be killed without Arcane or Saint Stage. The devils that are actually walking out more so resemble the mid-rank devils we've seen, comparing them to the mid-rank devils from 284. As such, it's very clear that they can kill the low-ranks but not the mid-ranks. This argument completely relies on the idea that the dead devils are mid-ranks, which is unlikely going by their designs. And before you say "why are you using designs of all things," better that than making an assumption that is pretty much baseless.

And speaking of going against the manga itself, you're using Dryad's statement yet you're also going against it by insinuating they can kill mid-rank and up devils. Mind you, this is after Dryad knew they were learning Ultimate Magic. She would've said if Ultimate Magic could kill the upper devils if it could've.

Also, Luck damaged them to the best of his abilities. It's also possible that these devils can't regenerate, rendering them unable to fight because they were dismembered (of course we don't know, but it's a possibility).

"signal" is very vague. Also contradicted by Gaja HIMSELF thinking he could kill Megicula by empowering his Ultimate Magic by using Life enhanced Ultimate magic. This is because gaja trained with elves and Dryad, the Dryad implying that you can kill mid-rank devils AND ABOVE with UM. Gaja thinking to himself, "I will kill megicula" and uses Ultimate magic >> interpreting his signal as a means for Noelle to strike when the heart is there as a weakpoint.

And again, Dryad did not imply this at all. In fact, she implied the opposite by saying that the mid-rankers and up would be a problem. And once again, she's saying this after already knowing they would be learning Ultimate Magic. Given her vast knowledge and the current state of the world, she'd have told them if Ultimate Magic could kill these devils. Also, why else would Gaja send out a signal? Did he just want to tell Noelle he's sacrificing himself for the heck of it? Given Noelle's immediate response, it's very reasonable to state that this was what the signal was for.

He said he'd "destroy the devil that caused all this" and well... He did. His Ultimate Magic did completely destroy her, Noelle just needed to finish the job.

Yeah it couldn't cut Zagred's heart because it wasn't strong enough. The thing couldn't even cut his body. Same can apply for Zephyr against Zenon, as Yuno got a power boost from Saint stage no matter the argument you put up. Also, Yuno used the dreg's of licht and lumiere magic to create it initially. But, that doesn't mean it keeps their power in further uses. So that isn't concrete.

Even when Zagred was severely injured due to Yami's Dimension Slash, Yuno's wind still had no effect on Zagred's heart. And with Zenon, once again Saint Stage is not an explicit power-up. Did Asta get a boost in power when he got his Anti-Magic due to it being Arcane? No, he didn't. The same applies for Saint Stage. And once again to reiterate, Noelle's Spirit Dive is a power-up because it's Spirit Dive which she hadn't achieved before, not because it's Saint Stage. Also, the fact that when Noelle mentions the thing about destroying Megicula's exposed weak point, the fact that Tabata chooses to flash back to Licht erasing Zagred's body and the heart remaining only further draws the comparison of a non-Arcane Stage destroying the devil's body and Arcane/Saint Stage being needed to destroy the heart.

Overall, this argument completely depends on a misinterpreted statement from Dryad. The idea of Ultimate Magic being able to kill mid-rank devils or higher is in itself provably false, and without that, there's not much else to really prove your point.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

How is this even a debate, Devil Hearts are very clearly meant to be a weak point, that's directly stated, they are by no means a tank above the body...

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

How is this even a debate, Devil Hearts are very clearly meant to be a weak point, that's directly stated, they are by no means a tank above the body...

ahh. Someone who didn't pay attention to the thread.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

ahh. Someone who didn't pay attention to the thread.

 

[KingTempest]

chuckled

 

[CloverDragon03]

ahh. Someone who didn't pay attention to the thread.

You say that when your argument completely relies on a misinterpreted statement from Dryad.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Incorrect. After healing him, Secre questions if he can draw out his Anti-Magic power still. His limit break was him drawing it out in a scenario where it was questionable if he could even do so.

Lmao. "Right here, right now, I'll surpass my limits..." -> summons the biggest and strongest black divider so far. NOT, a limit break. Gotcha. Secre only thought to herself about him drawing out the power. Asta didn't hear it. He just transformed and activated his strongest black divider, a limit break.

Saint Valkyrie Dress is a power-up because it's Spirit Dive, which is stronger than Noelle's ordinary Valkyrie Dress. It being Saint Stage does not make it explicitly a power-up. And even then, in both cases, you're acting as though that power-up was NEEDED to destroy the devil's heart. Yuno didn't have anything that could destroy Zenon's heart because he had nothing Arcane or Saint Stage before Saint Spirit of Zephyr. You keep using that "stars are born" line which really just means that Yuno's overall strength is such that he's able to spawn new stars.

Again, I never said the full brunt of the power was needed. But it makes the validity of your claim far less when nobody in a 'weak state' has destroyed a devil heart. More evidence is needed than a thought from Noelle that can be interpreted in other ways.

Mid-rank devils weren't the only devils coming out, there are also low-rank devils which can very much be killed without Arcane or Saint Stage. The devils that are actually walking out more so resemble the mid-rank devils we've seen, comparing them to the mid-rank devils from 284. As such, it's very clear that they can kill the low-ranks but not the mid-ranks. This argument completely relies on the idea that the dead devils are mid-ranks, which is unlikely going by their designs. And before you say "why are you using designs of all things," better that than making an assumption that is pretty much baseless.

Mid-rankng devils are the only devils coming out in that panel on 311. They clearly all match the design of mid-rankers, as they have that same unconventional gross body type. This matches with the one's laying on the ground in front of them. This ALSO, is known to be mid-rankers because the heart squad already dealt with the low-rankers who, scrambled to get out of the gate first. What this means is the low-rankers got out of the gate first, and the ones after are mid-rankers. Which is affirmed by the mid-rankers in panel, which you have already agreed to their design being the same. Also, the mid-rankers that have been defeated on the ground. As well as the fact that the spirit guardians even say that they've been taking them out.

And speaking of going against the manga itself, you're using Dryad's statement yet you're also going against it by insinuating they can kill mid-rank and up devils. Mind you, this is after Dryad knew they were learning Ultimate Magic. She would've said if Ultimate Magic could kill the upper devils if it could've.

I'm not going against it. Just paying more attention to the source material. This isn't the case that she needed to say that ultimate magic blatantly kills devils. It's an implication, often used in fiction. She alluded to the thought and then showed Luck killing them. The entire flow of the chapter is.... Heart squad kills low-rankers with magic, which blew our minds because we thought you needed to be arcane. But then she says "With low-level devils, if you use a ton of mana, you can mow them down even if you're not arcane." Ton of mana = True magic. As she even references true magic as an enormous amount of magic in the same page. "The problem is the devils who are mid-level and higher!" Then Tabata introduces these mid-rankers. Has Luck use Ultimate magic, which goes above and beyond just "lots of mana" and defeats the mid-rankers. "Let's see how much my ultimate magic can do." Seeing as Luck before UM training would already scale above mid-rankers, as they would scale well below Zagred, why use UM then to test against mid-rankers? Because he's testing the devil killing ability. If Luck could neg an exploding life from a 50% Disciple, then he doesn't need UM to fight mid-rankers. Unless, it grants him the ability to kill them, which it does.

Also, Luck damaged them to the best of his abilities. It's also possible that these devils can't regenerate, rendering them unable to fight because they were dismembered (of course we don't know, but it's a possibility).

possible, but baseless.

And again, Dryad did not imply this at all. In fact, she implied the opposite by saying that the mid-rankers and up would be a problem. And once again, she's saying this after already knowing they would be learning Ultimate Magic. Given her vast knowledge and the current state of the world, she'd have told them if Ultimate Magic could kill these devils. Also, why else would Gaja send out a signal? Did he just want to tell Noelle he's sacrificing himself for the heck of it? Given Noelle's immediate response, it's very reasonable to state that this was what the signal was for.

It's an implication that doesn't need to be stated. It's a type of writing, Tabata is showing, not telling. Showing that UM goes along with Arcane and saint. As for Gaja sending out a signal, is it actually a signal? Or was it a distraction? Either way, the fact that of the matter is that he himself planned in his own inner monologue he was going to kill Megicula. He never thought to himself. "I will expose her so Noelle can finish her off."

He said he'd "destroy the devil that caused all this" and well... He did. His Ultimate Magic did completely destroy her, Noelle just needed to finish the job.

Cap. You're just making theories right now. Gaja thought to himself that he was going to kill her, not Noelle.

Even when Zagred was severely injured due to Yami's Dimension Slash, Yuno's wind still had no effect on Zagred's heart. And with Zenon, once again Saint Stage is not an explicit power-up. Did Asta get a boost in power when he got his Anti-Magic due to it being Arcane? No, he didn't. The same applies for Saint Stage. And once again to reiterate, Noelle's Spirit Dive is a power-up because it's Spirit Dive which she hadn't achieved before, not because it's Saint Stage. Also, the fact that when Noelle mentions the thing about destroying Megicula's exposed weak point, the fact that Tabata chooses to flash back to Licht erasing Zagred's body and the heart remaining only further draws the comparison of a non-Arcane Stage destroying the devil's body and Arcane/Saint Stage being needed to destroy the heart.

You're just disregarding basic power scaling at this point. I already said that it was because Yuno wasn't strong enough with Zephyr to damage him. Saint Stage is a stage. But Yuno going from non-saint stage TO saint stage via resonance with Bell is a power up. Yuno got stronger because saint stage = higher resonance with Bell. That is how the two get stronger together. Narrator confirms it. You're just choosing to disregard it at this point. Yuno goes from NOT being able to create more stars, as stated himself. Then all of the sudden can make new starts right when he attains saint stage, with the narrator stating, the STRONGER the mage, the more stars are born. Literally spoonfeeding evidence for a power boost.

Overall, this argument completely depends on a misinterpreted statement from Dryad. The idea of Ultimate Magic being able to kill mid-rank devils or higher is in itself provably false, and without that, there's not much else to really prove your point.

Overall your argument stems entirely from a single thought by Noelle. Which is contradicted by Gaja's own inner monologue, the implication by the tree dryad, which is backed up by multiple deaths of mid-rankers via ultimate magic.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You keep repeating the same asinine points over and over again and letting yourself fill in the flawed logic with flat-out incorrect points. I don't know how you got "you can kill them with Ultimate Magic" out of calling them a problem. If Dryad believed the mid-rank devils could be killed with Ultimate Magic, she would've said that. This is no time for Dryad to go being cryptic. You chose to ignore that since it went against your narrative.

Also, take a look at the scan you sent from chapter 311 and compare the devils on the ground defeated to the low-ranks and the devils walking out to the mid-ranks. They look literally the same. It's pretty obvious that the devils that were defeated were low-ranks based on this, which makes sense, as Dryad says you can take them out by putting in a bunch of mana.

As for Gaja, why would he be sending out a distraction? There is quite literally zero reason for him to be doing so.

Now for Asta's limit break, yeah Secre internally questions if Asta can draw out his Anti-Magic power. Clearly, that's a possible limit, and yet he breaks it. Bam, limit break.

You're basically repeating the same things over and over again, even though they're clearly fallacious. And answer me this: If only a bit of Saint Stage power wasn't enough to destroy Megicula's heart, why did she even try to finish her off to begin with? Yeah, Noelle's not the type to give up, but given that they didn't know Megicula could regenerate, she could've easily focused on storing up power to go Spirit Dive again and then finish the job. Yet, she didn't.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

You keep repeating the same asinine points over and over again and letting yourself fill in the flawed logic with flat-out incorrect points. I don't know how you got "you can kill them with Ultimate Magic" out of calling them a problem. If Dryad believed the mid-rank devils could be killed with Ultimate Magic, she would've said that. This is no time for Dryad to go being cryptic. You chose to ignore that since it went against your narrative.

Just like Gaja would've Said his plan was to have Noelle attack the heart, right? There is nothing about the Dryad being cryptic. It is how Tabata displayed the conversation. The flashback to the conversation is shown. Showing. Not Telling.

Also, take a look at the scan you sent from chapter 311 and compare the devils on the ground defeated to the low-ranks and the devils walking out to the mid-ranks. They look literally the same. It's pretty obvious that the devils that were defeated were low-ranks based on this, which makes sense, as Dryad says you can take them out by putting in a bunch of mana.

The ones on the ground actually look like the mid-ranks. Seeing as the one laying over the rock has the same weird body type as the mid-ranks with elongated arms as well as head shape. No matter, the low-ranks stopped coming out after the mid-rankers. Which means they fought off and killed mid-rankers.

As for Gaja, why would he be sending out a distraction? There is quite literally zero reason for him to be doing so.

It's a possible alternative. Though, it still doesn't prove your claim. Why would Gaja set up a signal for Noelle to kill Megicula IF he then only thought to himself that he would be the one to destroy her?

Now for Asta's limit break, yeah Secre internally questions if Asta can draw out his Anti-Magic power. Clearly, that's a possible limit, and yet he breaks it. Bam, limit break.

The fact that you're denying Asta creating his biggest black divider ever while saying he surpassed his limits is his limit-breaking power, just lessens the overall credulity of your claims. It's right there in your face.

You're basically repeating the same things over and over again, even though they're clearly fallacious. And answer me this: If only a bit of Saint Stage power wasn't enough to destroy Megicula's heart, why did she even try to finish her off to begin with? Yeah, Noelle's not the type to give up, but given that they didn't know Megicula could regenerate, she could've easily focused on storing up power to go Spirit Dive again and then finish the job. Yet, she didn't.

Can say the same thing about you. Except there is far less supporting your claim. No matter. More evidence supporting my claim will be provided now. Liebe admitted that they couldn't defeat Megicula without Devil Union. Meaning that even a Black form 2 black divider couldn't defeat Megicula. Asta, who trained with Gaja and gained knowledge from him, says "Sorry! At this point I'm completely useless! THe rest is all yours!" So Asta considers himself completely useless in the fight despite arcane anti-magic, even with the ability to use black divider. But it wasn't enough. They needed Union. So this is a direct counter to your claim since Asta is arcane. Which means that the heart wouldn't be a weak point, since not even black form 2 black divider Asta would be able to destroy the heart.

Futhermore, LUCIFERO himself thinks that Mereoleona could kill him. As in chapter 324 "It's possible for humans to end me" He thinks of arcane: Asta, Yami, Nacht, Secre, and then Saint stage: Yuno. But ALSO Mereoleona. So Lucifero believes that Mereoleona can kill him. The panel he thinks of her is this one in 322. This makes complete sense because "It's as if she's become mana herself" and "She's a human who has drawn to close to mana". Ultimate magic Is "Physically draw closer to mana". Mereo spent the timeskip training to find a way to overcome her ability to effect the underworld, since her attacks had no effect on Zagred's power. Thus, Hellfire incarnate is related to ultimate magic and makes her able to kill devils, confirmed via Lucifero's thoughts. This also applies to UM then as well. I know you'll try and say "Lucifero is only referring to Yuno." Head canon. There are plenty of panels showing just Yuno against Lucifero, that could have been used instead. But Tabata uses both of them. The proof is in the pudding. UM can kill mid-rank and above. The heart is not a weak point.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Why would Gaja say his plan with Megicula right there? That is a horrible attempt at rationalizing it and the Dryad thing.

The low-ranks didn't stop coming out after that initial wave by the way. Especially since in 284, a lot of mid-ranks were shown getting past low-ranks to get out into the world, meaning it's not a set order of "first all the low-ranks come out, then all the mid-ranks." Even the supreme devils came out before the mid-ranks did.

That Asta bit isn't even trying to address my point, it's just you going on and on about "oh it's so ridiculous" without actually countering.

Lastly, these two paragraphs. First off, the bit about needing Union to beat Megicula is a hilarious misinterpretation yet again. They need Union to fight Megicula because Megicula is too strong to fight normally, which makes sense. Base Asta couldn't even fight Base Dante, let alone Megicula. Next is Mereoleona's bit, which is also equally wrong. First off, Lucifero also thinks of Zora, so unless Zora is also Arcane or something like that, your argument goes flying out the window for that part. Also, just because Mereoleona was training for that, doesn't mean it works, especially since Arcane and Saint Stage aren't something you can just train to get. The part with the "draw closer to mana" is also a reach and a half, as that's referring to how Ultimate Magic for the Heart Kingdom group was going to be used by drawing on natural mana like True Magic was, but on a much higher scale. Mereoleona, meanwhile, is becoming mana itself. Completely different cases. And yet again, Mereoleona being thought of by Lucifero doesn't mean much when Zora was thought of as well.

Seeing nothing that says Ultimate Magic can kill mid-ranks and above or that the heart is not a weak point.

 

[BlackAstaSenpai]

Why would Gaja say his plan with Megicula right there? That is a horrible attempt at rationalizing it and the Dryad thing.

What... what... what are you talking about. When Gaja says he is going to kill Megicula, that is his own inner monologue. So... Megicula wouldn't hear it.

The low-ranks didn't stop coming out after that initial wave by the way. Especially since in 284, a lot of mid-ranks were shown getting past low-ranks to get out into the world, meaning it's not a set order of "first all the low-ranks come out, then all the mid-ranks." Even the supreme devils came out before the mid-ranks did.

They weren't. The two guys they grabbed were already standing behind the horde as seen here in chapter 284 pg 6. I never said there was a set order. The mid-rankers said that the low-rankers came out first. Then we see the mid-rankers. and the next time we see that is, it is ONLY mid-rankers.

That Asta bit isn't even trying to address my point, it's just you going on and on about "oh it's so ridiculous" without actually countering.

Because your point is ridiculous. I've already proved Asta broke his limits via power.

Lastly, these two paragraphs. First off, the bit about needing Union to beat Megicula is a hilarious misinterpretation yet again. They need Union to fight Megicula because Megicula is too strong to fight normally, which makes sense. Base Asta couldn't even fight Base Dante, let alone Megicula. Next is Mereoleona's bit, which is also equally wrong. First off, Lucifero also thinks of Zora, so unless Zora is also Arcane or something like that, your argument goes flying out the window for that part. Also, just because Mereoleona was training for that, doesn't mean it works, especially since Arcane and Saint Stage aren't something you can just train to get. The part with the "draw closer to mana" is also a reach and a half, as that's referring to how Ultimate Magic for the Heart Kingdom group was going to be used by drawing on natural mana like True Magic was, but on a much higher scale. Mereoleona, meanwhile, is becoming mana itself. Completely different cases. And yet again, Mereoleona being thought of by Lucifero doesn't mean much when Zora was thought of as well.

I'm not misinterpreting anything. Asta considered himself useless in a battle despite being arcane, because he didn't have devil union. This means that he couldn't even destroy Megicula's heart if it were exposed with Black divider. It's the same logic you used. Noelle thinks even her nothing saint power could destroy megicula's heart. Asta thinks he'd be completely useless without DU. Doesn't matter if it's because Megicula is full power. If Asta COULD destroy the exposed heart with Black divider, then he wouldn't be useless. Also, current Base Asta, which is devil arm Asta, is a completely different level of power than that Asta. Current Base Asta, held his ground against Lucifero's gravity. Lucifero's gravity scales well above the serious 60% Dante that Yami needed mana zone + black hole to withstand.

Ah yes. Zora who... Reverts attacks at others with double the power. Thus making his traps arcane by proxy, when reverting arcane attacks. Lucifero can be killed by his own power. "Just because Mereoleona was training for that doesn't mean..." stop. Lucifero himself considers Mereo a threat to end him. I didn't say she trained to be saint or arcane. Her power is similar to ultimate magic. You DIDN'T read my post. The spade rebel said "it's like she's become mana." Adramalech says "Maybe she got too close to mana..". So whatever she is doing is a related technique to Ultimate magic, which is stated by the Dryad to "draw closer to mana." With Lucifero confirming that Mereoleona can end his life, because of Hellfire Incarnate, which brings her close to mana, then this already ruins your PURE saint/arcane argument. With that being said, since Ultimate magic brings one closer to mana, and with all of my other facts like Luck killing the mid-rankers as well as the spirit guardians. As well as the implication by the Dryad, you're wrong.

Seeing nothing that says Ultimate Magic can kill mid-ranks and above or that the heart is not a weak point.

It's because you are not looking.