Demon Physiology (Devil May Cry)

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It's about Acausality

Demons naturally exist in a dimension with a different flow of time

The video shows the Demon World being a place where time is not consistent. But why does that imply anything for physiology? And why does this relate to casuality?

and with a set of laws different from that of the human world. Demons don't need to follow the laws that exist upon reality, those being from the demon world or the human world.

Isn't that simply resistance to the reallity warping and law manipulation at best? The video also seems to make more reference to how the demonic world works than how a demon's body works.

The laws of the underworld differ from ours... Unlike the trees of our world, the Qliphoth grows from the surface to the deep underground. If you wish to reach the point where the fruit grown, you must head straight down

This is what is said

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As far as I know it is necessary for the being itself to exist in a different aspect of casuality to be type 4, but all the scans seem to refer more to how bizarre the demonic world is than anything else. And although they exist in a different time and reallity, wouldn't that be the same as giving type 4 to anyone from an alternate universe?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

The video shows the Demon World being a place where time is not consistent. But why does that imply anything for physiology? And why does this relate to casuality?

It's added to their Physiology because every demon has the ability, said page is a "general abilities and resistances" for all of them.

The wording isn't that good actually, the feat (I believe) is being on a Time that works and behaves completely different from the regular one, which is different from only being on a regular alternate universe where time works just the same

Isn't that simply resistance to the reallity warping and law manipulation at best? The video also seems to make more reference to how the demonic world works than how a demon's body works.

It's resistance at worst*, Acausality at best

i don't remember exactly the motive, but I think the argument is that the statement talks about all laws on Demon World being different, which would include things like cause and effect (the main source for Acausality)

The other part of the argument is the novel quote:

"As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted? The answer is about to appear here, right now."

Not only they work on different laws, but they don't follow the ones on our world

As far as I know it is necessary for the being itself to exist in a different aspect of casuality to be type 4, but all the scans seem to refer more to how bizarre the demonic world is than anything else. And although they exist in a different time and reallity, wouldn't that be the same as giving type 4 to anyone from an alternate universe?

As already explained, it isn't the same thing, the feat didn't came only for being on a different time and/or reality, but resisting it's different effects and being free of all laws of the human world when summoned here

I'll contact other DMC supporters

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The wording isn't that good actually, the feat (I believe) is being on a Time that works and behaves completely different from the regular one, which is different from only being on a regular alternate universe where time works just the same

But existing in a place where time is not fixed does not grant you anything as far as I know. A black hole for example does the same effects in real life and is not something that is outside the casual system of the universe. Like, why would anything that was born in a place where time is not consistent automatically make its inhabitants follow the same logic? I am sure there are many verses where it is mentioned "this place time does not make sense" and yet type 4 is not granted. (Although the same justification says that demons don't follow the laws of the human world and neither does the demonic one... So this is really strange)

but I think the argument is that the statement talks about all laws on Demon World being different, which would include things like cause and effect (the main source for Acausality)

I didn't see this mentioned in any scan

"As one historian put it, this world is so fragile in its foundation that it cannot accept beings that do not follow its laws. So what would happen to the world if an alien being were to be forcibly inserted? The answer is about to appear here, right now."

Which sounds more like resistance to law manipulation than anything else. Nothing is said about cause and effect, or about existing outside the universal system, but rather that it simply do not follow universal laws, which from the context I see is extremely vague to immediately assume something like casualty

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On the page about Law Manipulation it even mentions that "laws" vary in their utility, and can range from casuality manipulation or simply power nulification. All depending on the context

Basic users of the power may only disturb one or more laws without control over them. Regular and more advanced users may be able to destroy, nullify, modify and/or create new laws, potentially to keep an order or to benefit themselves.

Possible Uses​

• Reality Warping: Users of this ability may be able to control the laws of reality, and high-level users may be able to even negate the current laws and enforce their own upon reality.
• Physics Manipulation: The user may be able to alter the fundamental laws of physics.
• Power Nullification: High-level users may be able to "prohibit" the use of certain power or abilities in a universe, rendering the users of said power powerless.
• Causality Manipulation: By controlling the laws of cause and effect.
• Mathematics Manipulation: The user may be able to alter the result of a mathematical equation, or the fundamental process behind it.
• Chaos Manipulation: The user may be able to alter logical order.
• Subjective Reality and/or Immersion: By manipulating reality and unreality.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The video shows the Demon World being a place where time is not consistent. But why does that imply anything for physiology? And why does this relate to casuality?

Because Demons remain unaffected by these strange laws of time and work in normally. Time can accelerate, decelerate, stop, slow, rewind... etc everything above is default way Time works in Demon World, its not an externally manipulated phenomenon. Basically Demons are independent of time. Which is the same reason DBXV also has Acausality Type 4.
Since every demon is independent of time its obvious its their physiological attribute.

Isn't that simply resistance to the reallity warping and law manipulation at best? The video also seems to make more reference to how the demonic world works than how a demon's body works.

We have already noted that... scans got mixxed up between the two.
What Light posted above from novel states Demons follow their own sets of laws, while also remain unaffected by laws of demon and human world, even demon world warps laws of human world they remain unaffected.

As far as I know it is necessary for the being itself to exist in a different aspect of casuality to be type 4, but all the scans seem to refer more to how bizarre the demonic world is than anything else. And although they exist in a different time and reallity, wouldn't that be the same as giving type 4 to anyone from an alternate universe?

Because its a false equivalence.
Alternative universes don't work on different sets of laws or times, they are just realms where different events occur as compared to original timeline. Atmost you will find times are out of synchronization.
A farcry from what demons remaining unaffected and independent of genuinly bizarre laws of various realms.

But existing in a place where time is not fixed does not grant you anything as far as I know. A black hole for example does the same effects in real life and is not something that is outside the casual system of the universe.

Citation required. I don't know where you got that Black Holes follow causal system of reality. AFAIK we really don't know anything about that.

Like, why would anything that was born in a place where time is not consistent automatically make its inhabitants follow the same logic? I am sure there are many verses where it is mentioned "this place time does not make sense" and yet type 4 is not granted.

1st) Demons as a species are born before creation of demon world.
2nd) Demons don't just live in the demon world, they are independent of its effects.
Again.... DBXV has same reason whuch is considered valid.

Aside from this Demons also resist Fate manip from DW, which is an ability used by Beastheads as medium. Which is deadgiveaway of Causality involvement.

 

[EFÍTÉ]

Which sounds more like resistance to law manipulation than anything else. Nothing is said about cause and effect, or about existing outside the universal system, but rather that it simply do not follow universal laws, which from the context I see is extremely vague to immediately assume something like casualty

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On the page about Law Manipulation it even mentions that "laws" vary in their utility, and can range from casuality manipulation or simply power nulification. All depending on the context

Law is a set of several things or more depending on fiction in play, the ''varies'' mentioned is due to Law manip or resistance feats being related to specific parts or about the Laws of said world in general. Its very blatant, a being from a world where all of its laws are different from the world he is in the moment, obviously Time-space, cause and effect and many things would be different. It doens't need to have specific words, interpretation already makes understandable that the text is reffering to law in general or in another words, the entire set of rules into play instead of specific part of this set of rules.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I'm not making some big essay this time.

We did this 3 times (counting yours I think?) Here and here but to summarize both threads, people said the same thing you did.

We argued for this type of acausality because demons don't follow the laws, order, time of whatever world they are in, they don't care about the demon world and its laws, let alone the human world.

Yes, the biggest flaw on our argument is that cause and effect are never specifically mentioned but both in the thread that added this and the 2 attempts to take it away people agreed this was good enough of an argument for type 4.

As some said above, cause and effect don't really need to be mentioned, DBX and Homura are examples of this

Also, the time in the demon world isn't just irregular. There are places where it goes faster, slower, its stopped, backwards or it doesn't even exist.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

We did this 3 times (counting yours I think?) Here and here but to summarize both threads, people said the same thing you did.

then isn't it better to change the justification?

The first scan is about a letter saying that flowers in x places never die but in y places they die instantly

One of the videos used simply says that trees in the demonic world were born upside down

And the last one says that demons do not follow the laws of the world, with no added context

In DB at least it is quite flagrant with the sentence "exists outside of space-time".

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

snip

How is existing outside of time and space better than our justification? ours is literally everything we have for our argument with more details

What do you propose?

Because time is stopped or moving faster, fair enough, does it need more context? The raws say they don't need to follow the laws of the world, the translation says the laws uselessly wrestled trying to force them into following them only to be ignored.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

What do you propose?

Simply put into context what "laws" mean and why the scan about time not being fixed is useful. Like, the scan of the letter talking about the flowers doesn't do 1/3 of what this guy does, and he along with the others in the verse don't get aca type 4

1st) Demons as a species are born before creation of demon world.

This would also be important to add, I think

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Like, the scan of the letter talking about the flowers doesn't do 1/3 of what this guy does, and he along with the other verse on the back don't get aca type 4

Uuuhh.. this is hax performed by the dude... obviously it doesn't have anything to do with Acausality. For Acausality you would need to remain unaffected bizarre stuff performed by the reality you live in.

This would also be important to add, I think

Its mentioned in AE1 justification.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

For Acausality you would need to remain unaffected bizarre stuff performed by the reality you live in.

As far as I know there are many demons that can exist in Baroque's presence

Its mentioned in AE1 justification.

Well, I guess it's okay to put it in the Aca justification as well, no?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well, I guess it's okay to put it in the Aca justification as well, no

Fair.. I guess that can work.

As far as I know there are many demons that can exist without Baroque's presence

Idk how we treat resisting against one individual's crazy shenanigans vs resisting against natural order of reality which by default is bizarre.

 

[Vietthai96]

As far as I know it is necessary for the being itself to exist in a different aspect of casuality to be type 4, but all the scans seem to refer more to how bizarre the demonic world is than anything else. And although they exist in a different time and reallity, wouldn't that be the same as giving type 4 to anyone from an alternate universe?

This is, wrong actually, Acausality type 4 require you to operating under different rule of causality compare to the normal rule. While Demon in DMC (and to an extend DBXV/DBH), never directly mention, they still operating under different rule due to the different flow of time, time by itself is causality, the past is the cause, the future is the effect, cause and effect, causality.

But existing in a place where time is not fixed does not grant you anything as far as I know. A black hole for example does the same effects in real life and is not something that is outside the casual system of the universe. Like, why would anything that was born in a place where time is not consistent automatically make its inhabitants follow the same logic? I am sure there are many verses where it is mentioned "this place time does not make sense" and yet type 4 is not granted. (Although the same justification says that demons don't follow the laws of the human world and neither does the demonic one... So this is really strange)

This is, another wrong thing, black hole, in real life cause time dilation, time dilation is just the time flow slower or faster relatively depend on gravity (Einstein general relativity), universally the time still flow in the same direction. In DMC however, Demon World was stated to have time flow entirely different direction, or it is chaotic, or something like that (lol it is hard to remember). in DBXV/DBH, Demon World was stated to follow different rule that not the rule of physic like the Living Realm (Human Universe), and was sealed, completely cut off from the normal flow of time

 

[Abstractions]

Because Demons remain unaffected by these strange laws of time and work in normally. Time can accelerate, decelerate, stop, slow, rewind... etc everything above is default way Time works in Demon World, its not an externally manipulated phenomenon.

Could you post more examples of this transpiring? I'm sure there's something present in the two previous threads but I'd rather not scour through either to find it.

I'd be honest that the justifications feel puzzling to me as well, as the flower scan when on its own can be discarded with the knowledge that demons have Type 1 and wouldn't care if time is accelerated or slowed on them, age is already meaningless.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Could you post more examples of this transpiring? I'm sure there's something present in the two previous threads but I'd rather not scour through either to find it.

I'd be honest that the justifications feel puzzling to me as well, as the flower scan when on its own can be discarded with the knowledge that demons have Type 1 and wouldn't care if time is accelerated or slowed on them, age is already meaningless.

As the scans above mention how DW messes with time, even when past, present and future meet and twist space-time in an infinite loop, demons work normally like nothing happens inside it, and entering and leaving said loops casually.

About that flower shenanigans, those happen primarily because of time dilation and such, but demons don't move slower or faster because of it. Ageless immortality isn't the point here since it doesn't prevent time Manipulation from affecting you.

 

[deonment]

Homura are examples of this

that is actually a false equivalence from what i know, given it allowed her to remember madoka even after she became goddesss madoka,
Also just going to say, transcending laws can work for type 4 given the right context, which exists here for DMC

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Its mentioned in AE1 justification.

Wait, that's actually not used

• Abstract Existence (Type 1): The Soul contains Demons Names which are abstract concepts as well as information.[1]

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

that is actually a false equivalence from what i know, given it allowed her to remember madoka even after she became goddesss madoka,
Also just going to say, transcending laws can work for type 4 given the right context, which exists here for DMC

I think you missed my point? and remembering madoka after all the time fuckery is just type 1

I never said this didn't qualify or anything, just that it didn't specifically mention causality, just like DMC, but it is accepted.

 

[deonment]

I think you missed my point? and remembering madoka after all the time fuckery is just type 1

I never said this didn't qualify or anything, just that it didn't specifically mention causality, just like DMC, but it is accepted.

ik, I was just stating the context was different given i think causality is one of the laws of the PMMM world