Demon King Daimao Low 1-C Downgrade (999th time)

[LuciferX]

Gonna have to disagree with this. DT summed up most of my issues pretty well

When you realize entire Tier A scalings based on a journal and a random chitchat with friends about fiction in general.

 

[LuciferX]

I don't really know where to start, but I think let's start with the dream hierarchy first. The reason why this is a guess is because they could not prove it. Scientists were leading them to this conclusion, but because they were not in a position to go and skip all the fictional layers, they gave a statement as "it should be like this", but this does not mean that there is no dream hierarchy because every time the author is asked about the dream hierarchy gave information about him. If such a hierarchy does not really exist, the author will reply by saying, "Actually, the dream hierarchy is a mistake of scientists." In short, yes, the dream hierarchy definitely exists.

Then tell me where does the fictional world created by her exist in that hierarchy? Top, Bottom or Middle?

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Honestly, I'm sure there will be at least one daimao downgrade thread after this is accepted or not.

 

[AKUTO123]

Then tell me where does the fictional world created by her exist in that hierarchy? Top, Bottom or Middle?

Tloi create everythink she created real world she created afterlife and many other thing.tloi= one of truht, others is her fiction so tloi always stand all of the stories all of the hierach he transcend everythink

 

[DontTalkDT]

Where the heck says she is above it. She is the beginning of it.

Ah yes, the beginning that takes in all of existence. Seriously, that's just not what the passive says. The passage clearly says if you go one layer after the other up, always rejecting the prior layer, TLOI is the last that remains and she views it all as fiction. The sole lonely peak.

No. Answer where does fictional world exist in hierarchy?

Already answered that.

Why even Yoshie relaible here? Even before researches rejected her findings about 4th dimension btw.

Because she is a supergenius scientist, who has thought about such topics, and it matches the what was priorly said. It's wrong to say she hasn't explored it. Yoshie explains the nature of the Afterlife in the same scene and they had spent time there at that point. She clearly had looked into the topic.

Then where does fictional worlds exist in hierarchy? It must be the top since she created it first and rest exist below it.

Non-sequitur. Nothing indicates that at all.

I'm talking about How Dream Hierarchy is not 1-A and baseline layer exist at the top and by creating it TLOI is Low 1-C

It doesn't. Seriously, where does your headcanon that the hierarchy goes downwards come from? The entire dream hierarchy starts with the scientists elaborating upon "this world is fiction". That's the baseline they take. That the world is someones dream. Then they go on and say "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity."

So yeah, they clearly lay out that the one that dreams their world is the start of that hierarchy.

Same with Yoshie's statement. She starts with Akuto having freed himself of the regular world's layer of fiction and having come to the next higher one, the Afterlife. And what she talks about is how there are infinite more such layers. How Akuto freeing them from this one would just land them in the next. Again and again and again. Yet they would never get free. An infinite hell. For that obviously the infinite layers have to be above specifically.

So, while I can't say that there definitely are no layers below, there are definitely infinite above.

Dude, it asks whether it's a dream of her and replied it was created hy her, she can create it with her creation power not by dreaming.

Dreaming a world and directly creating a world by power has a difference.

She's a plot manipulator. Manipulating fiction IS her power. This is like arguing Umineko has to R>F layers because Beatrice uses magic to shape the lower planes.

It's a non-argument by our standards.

How even infinite story hierarchy can exist in a finite space? I'm aware Akuto rebuild the afterlife but how does that change the fact it's not a finite space?

If you have to ask that, you clearly haven't read the past threads on this. People literally had Ultima confirm that for R>F difference finiteness of space is irrelevant, after they didn't believe me on the matter. R>F stuff isn't dimensions. Size had no role in it. You can fit any amount of fiction into a space arbitrarily small.

Where does it says it's the same entity dreaming in every world? If so, it mean TLOI transcend herself?

In a sense yes. TLOI is not just a god, she is the thing that gives others a sense of self-awareness.

That required thinking about the Law of Identity.

At face value, that was the undeniable principle that you were yourself.

The fact that you were the person who was thinking your thoughts could not be shaken and that had already been touched on when it came to proving the existence of the world.

I mean that she "transcends herself" is already clear from the fact that she is the same entity as Keena, yet Keena simultaneously is part of TLOIs dream.

Evidence? There is no connection between those layers and dreams?

There is. The "system" that was closing them in before was the dream of the regular world, which is called a dream with the Afterlife beyond it. The Afterlife is the next System. So in context it's clear that this is referring to the dream layers.

Honestly, otherwise we would have two hierarchies, which would make them even stronger lol

I want to ask a question, Did Akuto ever destroy the world?

Depends on what you mean with "destroy" and "world". Although it really doesn't matter for the debate.

You interprete it in a wrong way. She doesn't transcend infinite levels of existences, she just exist at the end of hierarchy.

Again, literally the next sentence after that part is "That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life." And a few sentences later "Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own." with the inbetween talking about how she is all alone as a god.

The entity that takes in all of existence, including the hierarchy, and views it as fiction is very obviously above it.

---

Anyways, we have been through a lot of this before and most people in this thread seem to be against the downgrades.

I believe it's time to ask another staff member on this so that we can potentially get the two staff votes needed for a conclusion.

@DarkDragonMedeus you usually do a good job checking my threads, so can you give your opinion?

 

[AKUTO123]

Honestly, otherwise we would have two hierarchies, which would make them even stronger lol

Here's the thing I'm talking about but I won't mention it here. this Summer I hope I'll be able to convince you

 

[AKUTO123]

Ah yes, the beginning that takes in all of existence. Seriously, that's just not what the passive says. The passage clearly says if you go one layer after the other up, always rejecting the prior layer, TLOI is the last that remains and she views it all as fiction. The sole lonely peak.


Already answered that.


Because she is a supergenius scientist, who has thought about such topics, and it matches the what was priorly said. It's wrong to say she hasn't explored it. Yoshie explains the nature of the Afterlife in the same scene and they had spent time there at that point. She clearly had looked into the topic.


Non-sequitur. Nothing indicates that at all.


It doesn't. Seriously, where does your headcanon that the hierarchy goes downwards come from? The entire dream hierarchy starts with the scientists elaborating upon "this world is fiction". That's the baseline they take. That the world is someones dream. Then they go on and say "It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity."

So yeah, they clearly lay out that the one that dreams their world is the start of that hierarchy.

Same with Yoshie's statement. She starts with Akuto having freed himself of the regular world's layer of fiction and having come to the next higher one, the Afterlife. And what she talks about is how there are infinite more such layers. How Akuto freeing them from this one would just land them in the next. Again and again and again. Yet they would never get free. An infinite hell. For that obviously the infinite layers have to be above specifically.

So, while I can't say that there definitely are no layers below, there are definitely infinite above.


She's a plot manipulator. Manipulating fiction IS her power. This is like arguing Umineko has to R>F layers because Beatrice uses magic to shape the lower planes.

It's a non-argument by our standards.


If you have to ask that, you clearly haven't read the past threads on this. People literally had Ultima confirm that for R>F difference finiteness of space is irrelevant, after they didn't believe me on the matter. R>F stuff isn't dimensions. Size had no role in it. You can fit any amount of fiction into a space arbitrarily small.


In a sense yes. TLOI is not just a god, she is the thing that gives others a sense of self-awareness.

I mean that she "transcends herself" is already clear from the fact that she is the same entity as Keena, yet Keena simultaneously is part of TLOIs dream.


There is. The "system" that was closing them in before was the dream of the regular world, which is called a dream with the Afterlife beyond it. The Afterlife is the next System. So in context it's clear that this is referring to the dream layers.

Honestly, otherwise we would have two hierarchies, which would make them even stronger lol


Depends on what you mean with "destroy" and "world". Although it really doesn't matter for the debate.


Again, literally the next sentence after that part is "That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life." And a few sentences later "Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own." with the inbetween talking about how she is all alone as a god.

The entity that takes in all of existence, including the hierarchy, and views it as fiction is very obviously above it.

---

Anyways, we have been through a lot of this before and most people in this thread seem to be against the downgrades.

I believe it's time to ask another staff member on this so that we can potentially get the two staff votes needed for a conclusion.

@DarkDragonMedeus you usually do a good job checking my threads, so can you give your opinion?

I think it's good to get stuffs' opinions at this point where there's basically enough discussion going on and continuing the discussion is just circling

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am in agreement with DontTalkDT here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thanks for the eval. In that case I think we can safely consider this rejected... again.