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Demi Fiend VS YHVH

MT2 Protag and Aleph don't have anything in the way of magic or any other special powers (unless you take the Diamond Realm DLC into consideration, which I don't)

Demi-Fiend has abilities those two can only dream of, and is equally skilled in battle.

So, yeah, win goes to Demi-Fiend.
 
Demi Fiend also gets one shot by both of them as he's significantly weaker AP wise

This is probably a stomp
 
>one shot >by Aleph

Yeah, no. AP be damned. I don't see it.

Edit: I also don't see anything on their pages to suggest they could one-shot him. (Keep in mind, we don't actually know how powerful Nocturne Lucifer is compared to his MTII/SMTII counterparts, so we can't safely use either character's victory over Lucifer to determine that particular match-up).
 
Now, YHVH could one-shot Demi-Fiend with Mouth of God.

But he could also one-shot either Aleph or MT2 protag with it.
 
TheDoom01 said:
Gargoyle One said:
Jaakuace43 said:
>one shot

>by Aleph

Yeah, no. AP be damned. I don't see it.
Click to expand...
Demi Fiend fought on par with lucifer.

Lucifer is a fraction of YHVH
Click to expand...
He is a fraction of one YHVH head or from the full power YHVH?
Click to expand...
I won't claim to know as much as I'd like to in regards to the SMT series, but wasn't Lucifer just the Chaos half of Satan, who was greatly inferior to YHVH? Granted, Satan could likely take out a good chunk of YHVH's heads, so maybe Lucifer could take out half as much?

On the other hand, there's no real evidence to say for sure that Lucifer was fighting at his best in the TDE final battle. All in all it just seems too vague to follow this line of logic. Then again, Demifiend + the other messiahs could handle Stephen on some level, if you count that fight as canon.

In my opinion, TDE Demifiend could probably take out at least the one head. No real reason besides the thought lining up with what I know of both and who they scale to.
 
ABoogieYesSir said:
YHVH should win this.
Click to expand...
Uh

Are you going to explain why you think that or?

Personally, I think he could take out 2-A YHVH. Even without knowing whether Lucifer and his forces won or lost, I would assume they went on to fight YHVH in his own domain (beyond Amala), rather than simply one of his many heads. If they were to have only fought one of his heads, it would have just been a repeat of SMTII, which... quite frankly doesn't work. That being the case, if Demi-Fiend could do even considerable damage to a fully powered YHVH, it's more than likely he could have taken out one of his heads.
 
Hmm, I dunno who to vote for yet... But if anything, it was implied Demi-Fiend was going to lose his fight against God, so yeah, there's that.

Also, what's this song again? Obviously Shoji Meguro, but I forgot what game the song came from.
 
ShinyMagicalGirl said:
Hmm, I dunno who to vote for yet... But if anything, it was implied Demi-Fiend was going to lose his fight against God, so yeah, there's that.
Also, what's this song again? Obviously Shoji Meguro, but I forgot what game the song came from.
Click to expand...
Shin Megami Tensei has always played around with the concept of multiple possibilities in some fashion. The Diamond Realm DLC implied it was also possible for him to lose his fight against Lucifer (though, the canonicity of both that and his DDS fight are somewhat questionable; personally, I'd say disregard them).

So while there is a possibility of Demi-Fiend losing in his battle against the Great Will/YHVH, there's no way to ascertain whether or not he did as a fact.

Come to that, it's very likely the version of YHVH he went to face was him at his full power (or at least a version significantly stronger than that of his SMTII counterpart). Even if he were to have lost the fight against YHVH in his own domain, it wouldn't tell us whether or not he could beat a singular manifestation of his.

Considering Lucifer's assessment of him, I find it hard to believe he couldn't very well damage YHVH in a significant way. Lucifer in Nocturne clearly knows what he's doing. Lucifer's assessment of Aleph was pretty on-point as well, keep in mind.

In conclusion, given all that we know, I strongly believe Demi-Fiend could beat a singular manifestation of YHVH. It would be downright comedic if he couldn't at least do that.
 
I do not believe that Hitoshura could beat YHVH. Simply put, I don't see the Demi-Fiend as high enough in the power Hierarchy to take him on, and Voice(Mouth?) of God says hi. He would have to be stronger than Satan, who's stronger than Kuzuryu(9 heads, note that one headed rivals Lucy), who's stronger than Lucifer, who might not even be as strong as Demiurge unless you count the SMT IV version of him. That's something I don't see pointed out frequently, the version of Lucifer(who might have just been testing the Demi-Fiend like he did to Abel in DeSu1.), isn't even the strongest version of the character. TDE is already vague enough as is. "One Head" is the "at least" 2-A we know and love that creates more arguments and stomps than actual threads. The reasoning that Hitoshura could beat Aleph meaning he could beat YHVH doesn't sit well with me either. Not only am I on shaky ground on that even being a possibility due to raw AP differences but if IIRC, that fight was determined off of DF nulling Aleph's attacking types(correct me if I am mistaken please). As far as I can see, Demi-Fiend isn't all the TDE hype makes him out to be. YHVH takes this with the Mouth of God( ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠ ╠Âo╠Ân╠Âe╠ ╠Ât╠Âr╠Âu╠Âe╠ ╠Âb╠Âa╠Ân╠Âe╠ ╠Âo╠Âf╠ ╠ÂD╠Âa╠Ân╠Ât╠Âe╠Â'╠Âs╠ ╠Âi╠Âm╠Âm╠Âo╠Âr╠Ât╠Âa╠Âl╠Â,╠ ╠Âa╠Âc╠Âa╠Âs╠Âu╠Âa╠Âl╠Â,╠ ╠ÂO╠Âm╠Ân╠Âi╠Âp╠Âr╠Âe╠Âs╠Âe╠Ân╠Ât╠ ╠Âa╠Ât╠ ╠Âl╠Âe╠Âa╠Âs╠Ât╠ ╠Â4╠Â-╠Âd╠Âi╠Âm╠Âe╠Ân╠Âs╠Âi╠Âo╠Ân╠Âa╠Âl╠ ╠Âp╠Âi╠Âz╠Âz╠Âa).Shekinah would be interesting for other 2-A's to fight though.
 
There's one major problem with that argument: Voice/Mouth of God says hi to Aleph too. And Nanashi. And pretty much anyone who HAS been able to beat YHVH in the series - either as one of his heads or at full power. The skill basically means nothing.

We also don't know how strong Lucifer is in Nocturne compared to his SMTII counterpart. There's a good chance he's either just as strong as he was in II, or far, far stronger. Comparing any version of Lucifer to SMTII Satan that isn't SMTII Lucifer, quite frankly, doesn't work anyway. Demiurge also doesn't work for this comparison, since his level of power is too inconsistent throughout the series.

As for Demi-Fiend being able to match up with Aleph, I would agree that that isn't exactly grounds for a victory, since we don't actually have a way of comparing the two in terms of power. If there is a thread with those two up against each other, I haven't seen it.


I just don't see Demi-Fiend losing to a 2-A YHVH. You could definitely argue he's unprepared for a confrontation with his true self (the big ol' 1-C), but the idea of him not being able to go up against a single head is, again, just too laughable to sit well with me.

My vote's sticking with Demi-Fiend taking the win.
 
>Lucifer's powers varies / is inconsistent throughout the series

Where did you got this idea though? (I'm legitimately curious by the way)
 
There is nothing to suggest that Nocturne Lucifer is the same level of power as SMTII Lucifer. Mind you, this DOES go both ways - there's nothing to suggest he's any weaker or stronger.

My main point is that comparing Nocturne Lucifer to SMTII Satan seems a bit... iffy.
 
TheDoom01 said:
Demi-Fiend solos because he is badass.
Oh wait this is my thread, whatever.
Click to expand...
I know this is a joke, but

GOD NO. None of the protags solo YHVH (unless you have a broken build, anyway).

Edit: Come to think of it, Aleph wouldn't be able to solo him due to Voice/Breath of God, which in SMTII ALWAYS hits the party member with the lowest Int.
 
Not sure if there is any evidence suggesting that Lucifer's powers varies throughout the series or something of the sort

Well, Satan was quite explicitly said to be YHVH's ultimate servant who stands as the one who is closer to Him than all others, and this is even supported by the fact that he is always fought immeditally after God Himself in almost all of his significant appearances throughout the games (except in Majin Tensei... and in Digital Devil Saga but that was not really him)
 
Hmm. Satan himself HAS been confirmed to vary in power based on the game (SMTIV Satan is in a whole different league from SMTII Satan.)

I may change my voice to inconclusive, actually; simply on the basis that trying to compare anything in Nocturne to their SMTII counterpart is a very prickly endeavor. Let's break it out down, bit by bit.

1) Lucifer and his many appearances

SMTII has Lucifer, Satan, and YHVH. It's confirmed that YHVH > Satan > Lucifer in this particular game.

SMTIII has Lucifer, and... that's basically it.

Okay, so let's compare Nocturne Lucifer to his SMTII counterpart... Yeah.

Now, let's compare Nocturne Lucifer to SMTII Satan without any idea how he stacks up to his own SMTII counterpart. Then, let's try to compare Nocturne Lucifer to SMTII YHVH.

There's nothing to suggest he's any different in terms of power from his SMTII counterpart, but there's also nothing to suggest his level of power is the exact same.

Demiurge cannot be used for this comparison, since he doesn't appear in either SMTII or SMTIII.

2) God's Stinky Breath

God's Breath may very well work on Demi-Fiend, but we've also seen that it works on ALL the protagonists, so that's a moot point anyway.

3) Aleph

We don't know how Demi-Fiend would fare against Aleph. This loops right back into point 1.

In conclusion, we don't have enough reliable information to go off of. This match is inconclusive.
 
I brought up the inconsistency in power with Lucifer based off of his profile.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lucifer_(Shin_Megami_Tensei)

We clearly see that SMT IV is stated as Lucifer's strongest showing within the series. If SMT IV Lucy couldn't beat YHVH, and there's no way in hell I see that being a possibility, there's no way Demi-Fiend who should be weaker than IV Lucifer is beating YHVH. The reason I brought up Demiurge as well, because IV fodderized him(IDK if it was fused or non-fused though), but this may not have been the case with other versions. Even if Nocturne's Lucifer was stronger than even just II's, which I don't see being the case since Lucfier was much more active within II. "A single head" of YHVH has been considered damn near the peak of 2-A on the site for a while now. And speaking of single heads, the Kuzuryu point still stands. And on Aleph beating YHVH, he for sure didn't do it solo. Hiroko was with him, and a party of demons that could include Satan or Lucifer depending on your alignment. I don't see any protag soloing any verison of YHVH.
 
Jaakuace43 said:
TheDoom01 said:
Demi-Fiend solos because he is badass.
Oh wait this is my thread, whatever.
Click to expand...
I know this is a joke, but
GOD NO. None of the protags solo YHVH (unless you have a broken build, anyway).

Edit: Come to think of it, Aleph wouldn't be able to solo him due to Voice/Breath of God, which in SMTII ALWAYS hits the party member with the lowest Int.
Click to expand...
But aleph beated 1 YHVH head, so he is stronger than Demi-Fiend? because Demi-Fiend only beated a YHVH avatar, not even a real head of him.
 
I don't think that we can just assume the power of the characters is variable out of nowhere, Satan being on a far higher level on Shin Megami Tensei IV can be easily atributed to the retcons that happened in the game such as Lucifer being one of his two halves and whatnot, and the fact that YHVH as he appears in Apocalypse is his True Form, so it is only natural that Satan would have to be a lot higher than he was previously shown to be

orSatanalsohasatrueform

But aside from that... We can't suddently assume that they vary in power, since nothing suggests that
 
I'm pretty sure that Apocalypse Satan/YHVH should have no bearing on the fight. As far as I know, SMT II Satan and Apocalypse Satan are completely different characters. One's human counterpart was Zayin, while the other was formed by Walter and Johnathan. Unless both versions of the characters' fusions led to the same outcome or something weird like that, but it wouldn't make sense. Lucifer was not part of Satan in SMT II. This is II 's, and only II's YHVH, correct?
 
Zianmoon2 said:
I brought up the inconsistency in power with Lucifer based off of his profile.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lucifer_(Shin_Megami_Tensei)

We clearly see that SMT IV is stated as Lucifer's strongest showing within the series. If SMT IV Lucy couldn't beat YHVH, and there's no way in hell I see that being a possibility, there's no way Demi-Fiend who should be weaker than IV Lucifer is beating YHVH. The reason I brought up Demiurge as well, because IV fodderized him(IDK if it was fused or non-fused though), but this may not have been the case with other versions. Even if Nocturne's Lucifer was stronger than even just II's, which I don't see being the case since Lucfier was much more active within II. "A single head" of YHVH has been considered damn near the peak of 2-A on the site for a while now. And speaking of single heads, the Kuzuryu point still stands. And on Aleph beating YHVH, he for sure didn't do it solo. Hiroko was with him, and a party of demons that could include Satan or Lucifer depending on your alignment. I don't see any protag soloing any verison of YHVH.
Click to expand...
Does it say which version of YHVH SMT IV Lucifer went up against? I don't even think IV Lucifer could reliably be used for the comparison either unless we know which version of YHVH he went up against. Saying Demi-Fiend is weaker than IV Lucifer is also dubious.

We also don't know how Nocturne Lucifer would fare against Demiurge. Even if IV could fodderize him, that says nothing about his other versions' chances.

Lucifer being more active in II isn't an indication of power. How he operates in each game could be based on a variety of factors, not necessarily power.

Nocturne Lucifer can't be compared to Kuzuryuu either, for the same reasons he can't be compared to Satan.
 
Actually

Are we basing this on the assumption that Demi-Fiend is going against him one-on-one or with a party?

If it's solo, I actually WILL change my vote to a loss. Simply because no one solos YHVH to begin with (besides maybe Creator God Nanashi).
 
As far as I know in cano, SMT IV Lucifer doesn't go up against YHVH directly. The reason I bring him up is because we know he is stronger than any other version, and the equal of Merkabah. TBH, most solo SMT battles come down to the hierarchy at this point. He even states himself as "his truest form". We know he cannot be equal to YHVH since Merkabah isn't anywhere near that level. The reason I bring up Satan or Kuzuryuu is because they should be superior to Merkabah, who in turn is equal to by far the strongest version of Lucifer. I don't see how calling IV Lucifer stronger than DF is a problem either, since the most impressive feat Demi-Fiend did that was confirmed was proving himself to a weaker version of the character. Nothing was made certain in the TDE.
 
If it's Demi-Fiend solo, then he clearly does not win.

If it's Demi-Fiend with a party of demons... well, that begs the question of which demons he's bringing along. If Lucifer's among them (pretty much a given, since they're on the exact same side), it's quite possible that his chances of beating 2-A YHVH are the same as Aleph's. That also makes the victory unnoteworthy, however, as he's bringing along a number of other 2-A entities.

I cast my vote for Demi-Fiend losing solo. That said, this might be a stomp to begin with.
 
Zianmoon2 said:
If this isn't solo, what demons is Hitoshura allowed to have?
Click to expand...
Pretty much any demons he had in Nocturne, I would imagine. With the addition of Lucifer and Dante.

Already stated how that would make this an unnoteworthy victory, though.
 
I see. On one last note though, I would believe with a party of Demi-Fiend, Dante, Lucifer, Beelzebub/Metatron could beat YHVH, since Aleph beat YHVH and the only notable confirmed party members he had were Hiroko and Lucifer/Satan. Sad its the case though. Maybe a group battle scenario with YHVH and a host of his heralds vs Demi-Fiend and Lucifer's demons would be cool?
 
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