Deltarune: Removing Magic Scaling

[Qawsedf234]

obviously being insinuated that the (stronger) Fountain's power is instead going purely into the Titan's being and attacks rather than what it usually does. I simply don't understand how you can say the attack the Titan charges up a significant amount using a source stronger than one that generates city levels of power with no other outlet for this power and no reason to hold it back wouldn't be stronger than the base power a Fountain always generates.

Not holding back is not a justification on the wiki. You have to prove a UES system or show that their attacks use more energy. Those are our rules regarding stabilization feats.

Like if you can show the laser blast makes the Titan tired that's enough to upscale, since laser fatigue > creation fatigue. But you have to show some kind of comparison between stabilization and energy projection.

 

[ScoutManeater]

Again, what you're posting does not meet our stated requirement here:

You have to show that an attack from a Titan would use the same or greater energy than it takes to sustain the world. What you're giving does not meet those requirements.

The mage analogy you used relises on the seperation between a caster's total mana pool and the cost of a single spell. This arguement falls apart when we look at the Titan as their output of power does not function like spells. Its attacks have shown to weponize, manifest, and re absorb the enviornment and its mass of the dark world.

First of all there are examples of titan manifesting chunks of its own massive fountain energy into attacks. The titan has been stated to be a dark fountain that has run rampant basically as stated by myself before. When the titan makes these Titan spawn it is throwing detached portions of itself to act as swarms against you, it is throwing a being made of this darkness that makes up the dark world at you.

Second of all to fufill your requirement that a character mus demonstrate it can channel energy equal to the source of the power there is a loop within titans battle. The loop is the titan throws a fraction of its mass that makes up titan spawn it deploys them into a attack and then devours itself to heal itself completely disproving a "mage expending mana." A mage cannot throw a spell, have said spell exist as a tangible physical being on the battlefield, and then re eat it to recover themselves. This proves a total, closed loop over how the titan uses its environment as its attack and system. The titan proves to be able to throw itself into fragments and then reabsorb the little versions of the Dark worlds base material.

Third, the fact the text says "the ground shudders. A swarm is coming" and "Darkness flows. A swarm is coming" The text does not suggest Titan is channeling magic it states that the darkness is flowing. Dictating that the dark energy that is powering the entire Dark World is shifting and moving flowing into a attack that the Titan is using. Its direct kinectic manipulation of the dark worlds substance.

Finally, The titan also shoots concentrated balls of darkness at the Fun Gang then swallows them back up and shoots a giant laser at Kris. This sequence proves it is able to gather a mass volume of dark energy even energy he has already expunged suck them back up condense it into a giant devastating laser beam. If it has the cpacity to emit re absorb and deal out such an attack of that volume all coming from the fountain aka Dark World itself. Its active combat output should scale aswell to the world itself.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Isn't making an attack greater energy than just... existing? I guess I always misunderstood how stabilzation feats work.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Not holding back is not a justification on the wiki. You have to prove a UES system or show that their attacks use more energy. Those are our rules regarding stabilization feats.

Like if you can show the laser blast makes the Titan tired that's enough to upscale, since laser fatigue > creation fatigue. But you have to show some kind of comparison between stabilization and energy projection.

You missed the point of the message being that the Fountain wasn't doing its usual stabilization of a Dark World, and, with no other outlet, its power is only going towards the Titan's attacks rather than what it usually does. The Titan having to charge up its attacks with the Fountain's power behind it at all proves its attacks are greater than the power the Fountain passively generates.

If it's any consolation to the "fatigue" thing, the Titan's hands and shield take multiple turns to regenerate, unlike the Dark Fountains nearly instantly forming a Dark World.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The mage analogy you used relises on the seperation between a caster's total mana pool and the cost of a single spell. This arguement falls apart when we look at the Titan as their output of power does not function like spells. Its attacks have shown to weponize, manifest, and re absorb the enviornment and its mass of the dark world

So you must show that theh can use more energy in attacks that they do in creating the realm. So far no one has provided that. Being the well spring of energy does not mean you scale to that full yield in a stabilization feat. You have to show the ability to use that energy in equal magnitudes.

When the titan makes these Titan spawn it is throwing detached portions of itself to act as swarms against you, it is throwing a being made of this darkness that makes up the dark world at you.

Can you show that any of these use as much power as stabilizing the realm?

Second of all to fufill your requirement that a character mus demonstrate it can channel energy equal to the source of the power there is a loop within titans battle. The loop is the titan throws a fraction of its mass that makes up titan spawn it deploys them into a attack and then devours itself to heal itself completely disproving a "mage expending mana." A mage cannot throw a spell, have said spell exist as a tangible physical being on the battlefield, and then re eat it to recover themselves. This proves a total, closed loop over how the titan uses its environment as its attack and system. The titan proves to be able to throw itself into fragments and then reabsorb the little versions of the Dark worlds base material.

Again, you're not showing the correct evidence here. All this tells me is that the Titan would only scale if it ate the entire world and then spit it out. Show me a comparisons between attack strength and stabilization or a indication that one move fatigues the Titan more than others.

Finally, The titan also shoots concentrated balls of darkness at the Fun Gang then swallows them back up and shoots a giant laser at Kris. This sequence proves it is able to gather a mass volume of dark energy even energy he has already expunged suck them back up condense it into a giant devastating laser beam. If it has the cpacity to emit re absorb and deal out such an attack of that volume all coming from the fountain aka Dark World itself. Its active combat output should scale aswell to the world itself.

It does not.

I'm going to wait for Strym, but every piece of evidence you've mentioned does not meet our standards with stabilization feats. Here are three very basic criteria I'm asking for:

• Show that an attack tires the Titan when existing or doing normal actions does not
• Show that a UES is in place and it has an ultimate attack noted as being its strongest move
• Show an attack stated as using a lot od energy

Any one of those three can count for scaling and you do not need to prove all of them, just one. Spawning stuff, firing lasers, or just attacking aren't enough because you can't show an energy comparison between than and keeping the Dark World in existence. You must use as much or more power in an attack vs stabilization for the feat to count for AP. It's written in our rules.

 

[IDK3465]

Honestly, I'll take 7-C, better matchup opportunities anyway

 

[Arkenis]

Isn't making an attack greater energy than just... existing? I guess I always misunderstood how stabilzation feats work.

No, the attack can be less than the creation feat.

You missed the point of the message being that the Fountain wasn't doing its usual stabilization of a Dark World, and, with no other outlet, its power is only going towards the Titan's attacks rather than what it usually does. The Titan having to charge up its attacks with the Fountain's power behind it at all proves its attacks are greater than the power the Fountain passively generates.

This doesn't prove it. This means it's redirecting its energy output, doesn't mean that change is equal to the stabilization. Charging doesn't prove it, unless that's considered a difficult or draining thing?

 

[Randomuser3412]

This doesn't prove it. This means it's redirecting its energy output, doesn't mean that change is equal to the stabilization. Charging doesn't prove it, unless that's considered a difficult or draining thing?

What, are you suggesting the Fountain that was stated to be stronger than other Fountains is simply weaker? How would redirecting the energy to purely attacking instead of stabilizing a world not mean that the attacks are equal to the stabilization value?

 

[Axorandom0]

Honestly, I'll take 7-C, better matchup opportunities anyway

Ngl same

 

[Arkenis]

What, are you suggesting the Fountain that was stated to be stronger than other Fountains is simply weaker? How would redirecting the energy to purely attacking instead of stabilizing a world not mean that the attacks are equal to the stabilization value?

No I'm suggesting the fountains regular output doesn't have to match the usage the titan does with it.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Yeah. So, that's what I said you were doing.

I feel Qaw is just ignoring everything I'm saying and repeating the same point. I don't have anything more to say here. I'll wait for Styrm instead.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah. So, that's what I said you were doing.

No you implied I think the fountain is weaker lmao. I clarified my point there.

 

[ScoutManeater]

So you must show that theh can use more energy in attacks that they do in creating the realm. So far no one has provided that. Being the well spring of energy does not mean you scale to that full yield in a stabilization feat. You have to show the ability to use that energy in equal magnitudes.


Can you show that any of these use as much power as stabilizing the realm?


Again, you're not showing the correct evidence here. All this tells me is that the Titan would only scale if it ate the entire world and then spit it out. Show me a comparisons between attack strength and stabilization or a indication that one move fatigues the Titan more than others.

It does not.

I'm going to wait for Strym, but every piece of evidence you've mentioned does not meet our standards with stabilization feats. Here are three very basic criteria I'm asking for:

• Show that an attack tires the Titan when existing or doing normal actions does not
• Show that a UES is in place and it has an ultimate attack noted as being its strongest move
• Show an attack stated as using a lot od energy

Any one of those three can count for scaling and you do not need to prove all of them, just one. Spawning stuff, firing lasers, or just attacking aren't enough because you can't show an energy comparison between than and keeping the Dark World in existence. You must use as much or more power in an attack vs stabilization for the feat to count for AP. It's written in our rules.

The laser has made the titan drop its defenses having the fun gang be able to do all out attack causing the titan to eat its own spawn to have its outer shell back up basically hope this helps

 

[Randomuser3412]

No you implied I think the fountain is weaker lmao. I clarified my point there.

If the power isn't going towards stabilizing a world, or towards the Titan's attacks, or towards the Titan itself. The Fountain just isn't producing the same level of power it usually is.

The laser has made the titan drop its defenses

Listen, I'm arguing for the Titan being 7-B, sure. But this isn't what made the Titan drop its defense. The Titan's defense lowers when its shield breaks, not after it uses this attack.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The laser has made the titan drop its defenses having the fun gang be able to do all out attack causing the titan to eat its own spawn to have its outer shell back up basically hope this helps

Alright I can see it then. Laser > Casual output ~ Stabilization.

 

[ScoutManeater]

If the power isn't going towards stabilizing a world, or towards the Titan's attacks, or towards the Titan itself. The Fountain just isn't producing the same level of power it usually is.

Listen, I'm arguing for the Titan being 7-B, sure. But this isn't what made the Titan drop its defense. The Titan's defense lowers when its shield breaks, not after it uses this attack.

I interpreted as such as it happens after the laser the only time we see the laser used if im not wrong because we have seen the star infront of its face down before and this didnt happen

 

[Randomuser3412]

I interpreted as such as it happens after the laser the only time we see the laser used if im not wrong because we have seen the star infront of its face down before and this didnt happen

"Titan's DEFENSE dropped massively! ATTACKs are super effective!" is the flavor text for the first two times the Titan's shield is lowered
"Titan's DEFENSEs are dropped! ATTACKs will be super effective!" is the flavor text after the Titan loses its shield the third time and uses its laser. I agree that the laser clearly requires significant effort and a lot of energy from the Titan, but I don't believe it's the reason the Titan's defense drops.

 

[ScoutManeater]

"Titan's DEFENSE dropped massively! ATTACKs are super effective!" is the flavor text for the first two times the Titan's shield is lowered
"Titan's DEFENSEs are dropped! ATTACKs will be super effective!" is the flavor text after the Titan loses its shield the third time and uses its laser. I agree that the laser clearly requires significant effort and a lot of energy from the Titan, but I don't believe it's the reason the Titan's defense drops.

The thing is while yes it happened before The laser used a immense about of energy that made the Titan protect itself with its wings and heal with its own spawn if the titan was able to he would have put back up his shield like he did before yet he didnt and this only happened when he used the laser a all out attack that used a significant amount of energy and effort.

future edit ralsei only says that we were damaging its outer shell and that was it it wasnt in true danger as it was said we were not attacking the titan itself its "outer shell"

 

[Randomuser3412]

The thing is while yes it happened before The laser used a immense about of energy that made the Titan protect itself with its wings and heal with its own spawn if the titan was able to he would have put back up his shield like he did before yet he didnt and this only happened when he used the laser a all out attack that used a significant amount of energy and effort.

Unfortunately, that's not how the Titan fight works. I've beat the Titan many times, I can attest to the fact it's 100% possible and quite easy to get the Titan to put its wings up and heal before it uses the laser. The healing is only connected to its HP, rather than its current phase

 

[ScoutManeater]

Unfortunately, that's not how the Titan fight works. I've beat the Titan many times, I can attest to the fact it's 100% possible and quite easy to get the Titan to put its wings up and heal before it uses the laser. The healing is only connected to its HP, rather than its current phase

The thing is even if its tied to HP the laser attack has been shown to be an all out Laser attack just because you triggered said event before it got to use it does not mean the titan can use said laser freely without exhaustion unless it is shown he is able to use this without in turn going behind his wings I dont know why it isnt fair to use it in this manner

 

[Randomuser3412]

The thing is even if its tied to HP the laser attack has been shown to be an all out Laser attack just because you triggered said event before it got to use it does not mean the titan can use said laser freely without exhaustion

I agree

unless it is shown he is able to use this without in turn going behind his wings

The Titan will only go behind its wings at 40% hp. It will never do it for any other reason, including using the laser attack.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Alright I can see it then. Laser > Casual output ~ Stabilization.

The thing is even if its tied to HP the laser attack has been shown to be an all out Laser attack just because you triggered said event before it got to use it does not mean the titan can use said laser freely without exhaustion unless it is shown he is able to use this without in turn going behind his wings I dont know why it isnt fair to use it in this manner

I'll mention both of you for this because this is seemingly pertinent to the discussion and I want to be fair to both sides here.

For some context beforehand, the first two times the Titan's shield is lowered, it will use an attack involving charging up and shooting out orbs of darkness twice in a row, then regain its shield on the third turn.
After the third unleash, the Titan uses the previously mentioned laser attack on the first turn and then uses a regular three-shot darkness orb attack on every turn after that. The Titan completely loses its ability to regain its shield after the third unleash and using its laser attack and will never use the laser more than once. The Titan only regains the ability to use its shield after it drops to 40% hp and rests for a few turns while healing itself.

 

[Arkenis]

If the power isn't going towards stabilizing a world, or towards the Titan's attacks, or towards the Titan itself. The Fountain just isn't producing the same level of power it usually is.

Exactly. It can be producing less for the titan's attacks. But seems Qawsed's accepted it anyhow

 

[Randomuser3412]

Exactly. It can be producing less for the titan's attacks. But seems Qawsed's accepted it anyhow

If you couldn't tell, I was pointing out how your example requires the Fountain that was stated to be stronger than a normal one be producing less energy than a normal one.

 

[ScoutManeater]

I agree

The Titan will only go behind its wings at 40% hp. It will never do it for any other reason, including using the laser attack.

The laser is dependent on it being after the soul uses unleash for the third time basically a desperation attempt and unleash only being able to be used once the titan is low proving it to be a desperation attack and it needing enough of these darkness orbs to shoot the laser the health still ties in to when the laser is going to be shot this is only shot once and is a complete desperation whenever the player uses unleash for the third time

I'll mention both of you for this because this is seemingly pertinent to the discussion and I want to be fair to both sides here.

For some context beforehand, the first two times the Titan's shield is lowered, it will use an attack involving charging up and shooting out orbs of darkness twice in a row, then regain its shield on the third turn.
After the third unleash, the Titan uses the previously mentioned laser attack on the first turn and then uses a regular three-shot darkness orb attack on every turn after that. The Titan completely loses its ability to regain its shield after the third unleash and using its laser attack and will never use the laser more than once. The Titan only regains the ability to use its shield after it drops to 40% hp and rests for a few turns while healing itself.

I feel like this still follows under what he needed to agree even if it isnt exactly how I argued it to be it proves after the laser he only shoots these three orbs until you finish him off which I also feel like proves that there isnt supposed to be anything between the laser and the titan retreating between his wings (as it feels more of a stalling move until the player deals the final bit of damage) either or it still helps and it got him to agree I feel like we are just lengthing this for nothing

 

[Randomuser3412]

The laser is dependent on it being after the soul uses unleash for the third time basically a desperation attempt and unleash only being able to be used once the titan is low proving it to be a desperation attack and it needing enough of these darkness orbs to shoot the laser the health still ties in to when the laser is going to be shot this is only shot once and is a complete desperation whenever the player uses unleash for the third time

I was merely correcting you in that the laser is independent from the HP and the Titan retreating into its wings.

I feel like this still follows under what he needed to agree even if it isnt exactly how I argued it to be it proves after the laser he only shoots these three orbs until you finish him off which I also feel like proves that there isnt supposed to be anything between the laser and the titan retreating between his wings (as it feels more of a stalling move until the player deals the final bit of damage) either or it still helps and it got him to agree I feel like we are just lengthing this for nothing

I am agreeing with your original reasoning, but through a different method here.
The logical conclusion here is one or a mix of these two:
A. The Titan's laser takes up too much energy for it to regain its shield before resting
B. The Titan's shield takes up too much energy for it to create more than 3 of before resting (and, Gerson is able to nearly destroy the shield in one hit)

 

[SomebodyData]

Going through the responses rn, although it looks like Qawsedf already ended up agreeing on the AP scaling point, so the thread can go through.

If I find something I can agree with GodlyCharmander on that I feel is still unresolved, I'll comment it shortly. Otherwise the thread will be closed.

 

[Arkenis]

If you couldn't tell, I was pointing out how your example requires the Fountain that was stated to be stronger than a normal one be producing less energy than a normal one.

You're reading wrong deliberately then. My example doesn't require that, I am saying the energy consumption for the titan's combat can be lower while the stabilizing requires more.

 

[Randomuser3412]

You're reading wrong deliberately then. My example doesn't require that, I am saying the energy consumption for the titan's combat can be lower while the stabilizing requires more.

The Fountain isn't stabilizing any world here. The output has to be disappearing or going all to the Titan.
Anyway, for the reasons above as well, I believe it's reasonable to say the Titan's output is equal to (and in some cases, above) the Fountain's stabilization.

 

[Arkenis]

The Fountain isn't stabilizing any world here. The output has to be disappearing or going all to the Titan.
Anyway, for the reasons above as well, I believe it's reasonable to say the Titan's output is equal to (and in some cases, above) the Fountain's stabilization.

Is the output fixed or something?

 

[Randomuser3412]

Is the output fixed or something?

It's fixed at being "above a regular Fountain's," yeah. This argument is pointless. I won't fill the thread with this anymore.

 

[Qawsedf234]

like Qawsedf already ended up agreeing on the AP scaling point, so the thread can go through.

If I find something I can agree with GodlyCharmander on that I feel is still unresolved, I'll comment it shortly. Otherwise the thread will be closed.

I agreed with the removal of the Zapper Feat and the lase is based on the assumption that it's a draining charged attack. But going by this post

For some context beforehand, the first two times the Titan's shield is lowered, it will use an attack involving charging up and shooting out orbs of darkness twice in a row, then regain its shield on the third turn.
After the third unleash, the Titan uses the previously mentioned laser attack on the first turn and then uses a regular three-shot darkness orb attack on every turn after that. The Titan completely loses its ability to regain its shield after the third unleash and using its laser attack and will never use the laser more than once. The Titan only regains the ability to use its shield after it drops to 40% hp and rests for a few turns while healing itself.

They are unrelated to what I thought.

So my view hasn't changed. Dark World's are real, I see no good evidence for AP scaling, sound is real, lasers aren't real, electricity isn't real, and Jackstein is legit but an outlier.

 

[Randomuser3412]

But going by this post

I am agreeing with your original reasoning, but through a different method here.
The logical conclusion here is one or a mix of these two:
A. The Titan's laser takes up too much energy for it to regain its shield before resting
B. The Titan's shield takes up too much energy for it to create more than 3 of before resting (and, Gerson is able to nearly destroy the shield in one hit)

The point wasn't to say the laser isn't an attack that takes a lot of effort or anything, it was that the way Scout was describing it wasn't accurate.

 

[ScoutManeater]

The point wasn't to say the laser isn't an attack that takes a lot of effort or anything, it was that the way Scout was describing it wasn't accurate.

To be fair the video described different and how you said the titan uses the same attack over and over until you fufill the health requirement yes? Then it feels more like a stalling attack until you damage him enough the laser being the last big attack unless im mistaking something

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

They are unrelated to what I thought.

So my view hasn't changed. Dark World's are real, I see no good evidence for AP scaling, sound is real, lasers aren't real, electricity isn't real, and Jackstein is legit but an outlier.
[/QUOTE]

Soo PE via water ?

 

[Axorandom0]

They are unrelated to what I thought.

So my view hasn't changed. Dark World's are real, I see no good evidence for AP scaling, sound is real, lasers aren't real, electricity isn't real, and Jackstein is legit but an outlier.

Soo PE via water ?
[/QUOTE]

Water???? Huh????

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Soo PE via water ?
Water ??? Huh ???

It due ocean.ogg

If dark world darkness is similar to water you could try calc the titan PE

 

[StrymULTRA]

Looks like that the Titan point is already addressed (Edit: It's not, I'll think of something later), so I'll tackle the Zapper point (first).

I'm not convinced by the Zapper's laser points. The beams have nothing in common with actual light beams, and them bouncing off surfaces only matters if the surfaces are reflective. They also completely change colors, narrow down unrealistically, and come from a warped source that's not scientific. The points about the sound waves being usable I do agree with. It just seems like that's how the author depicts sound waves in this particular work for their attacks.

I'll take down these points one by one.

them bouncing off surfaces only matters if the surfaces are reflective.

The issue here is that the surface here is the battle box, an abstract representation of the battlefield that is there for the Player to visualize and interact with the environment, considering the bullet hell/RPG nature of the gameplay. It has not any estabilished properties given it's not something real, so you cannot claim that it's a supportive nor opposing point for the laser being real

They also completely change colors

Why is it an issue? The laser standard page does not mention this

narrow down unrealistically

Elaborate here, I see them being in a straight line and bouncing off stuff like normal lasers do. I KNOW that I said above that the bouncing is not a supportive point, but the thing is that as going in a straight like is not an supportive evidence for a thing being a laser (it's something that it's expected), bouncing off walls is something that infrared rays do.

come from a warped source that's not scientific.

Zapper is actually a "steroid" version of a TV remote. Darkners are the counterparts of real-life objects after the conversion from light to darkness, and Zapper is a remote as it has buttons, can increase the "volume", enable captions and can quite literally turn off.

It's the same reason why we currently treat Cyber World inhabitants like Spamton or Queen as Type 1 Inorganics (they're counterparts of computers and/or computer data), or Jackenstein as being made of wax due to him being based on a halloween decoration, saying that Zapper is not "an actual remote" makes no sense in the context, especially when it has statements heavily implying that it uses infrared rays in the fight.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I don't see any evidence of the electricity feat actually having lightning-like speeds.

Uh, wdym? Nobody is claiming that any electric attacks ingame is lightning.


In regards to Titan scaling to Fountain, there is following facts, that could be useful:
1. Dark Worlds is created in very short time after Darkness starts pouring into LW. So creating and sustaining DW doesn't take too much of output.
2. SOUL Light at full power can overpower pouring Darkness from Fountain inside Titan and seal it with ease. Same Light can destroy Titan shield, but is unable to significantly harm Titan main body (both of which are darkness, evidenced by black shard doing more damage to both of them). Similarly SOUL casual light output can destroy small darkness creatures that are spawned in battlebox, but it's not enough to destroy Titan Spawns. Safe to assume it's indicates some hierarchy where if darkness creatures is stronger/has more darkness, it requires higher output of Light to destroy it. So small darkness creatures<<casual SOUL light output<<Titan Spawns/Titan shield/Fountain darkness output(exact placement doesn't matter)<<SOUL Full power Light<<Titan main body.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Fountain isn't stabilizing any world here. The output has to be disappearing or going all to the Titan.

Except that it does, btw, as fountains give to the Dark Worlds their forms, and instantly make them disappear the moment they're sealed. That's textbook what the wiki defines as "significantly affect" given it's still making up a whole reality with abilities comparable to creation/destruction.

I see no good evidence for AP scaling

I dunno if this works, BUT I think I did find some evidence.

If the Titan is weakened enough, it will be forced to basically spam defense and not attack anymore until it's fully recovered. The act of Unleash exposes the Titan to light, causing is shield to disappear, but it can still attack, but when it stonewalls, not only Unleash cannot be used, but it does not attack anymore until it's fully recovered.

I think this can help with the idea of "attacks > existing" scaling, as you indeed do still exist while being forced to regenerate and heal, but are still too weak to properly attack during said state. Ralsei even says that "as long as the insides are intact, the battle will still be going" to say that Titan's regeneration pretty much replents its stamina too, can't really do that if the regeneration does not restore that too.