Deltarune: Removing Magic Scaling

[OrangeFR]

After looking at Strym’s arguments I think a 7-C, likely 7-B rating for the titans and those who scale is cool. I still don’t think the light speed scaling is consistent tho.

 

[LittleGuy99]

What are the key posts to read for the pro and anti sides?

The pros should all be in the OP
And I believe the strongest counterarguments are these:

Replying to both of these in one go, because both can be refuted in the same way.

This entire idea of "Dark Worlds are fake because they're illusions so physics does not apply to them" is just... silly.

For first, Dark Worlds just cannot be truly fake, because of these factors:

• Creating too many Dark Fountains would generate an unbalance between Light and Darkess, which would cause a catastrophe in the Light World due to the Titans rising and destroying everything. This cannot happen if the whole of Darkness is completely imaginary and fake.
• Light and Darkness are described as if they're in some kind of balance from the prophecy, which describes their yin-yang relationship, this cannot happen if the darkness in question is completely irrelevant and fictional.
• I am sorry, but the idea of "everything that happens in the Dark World is actually just placebo" is just stupid. The entire point about Berdly is bunk by using how Tenna is fully destroyed in the Dark World and then appears completely destroyed in the Light World too if he's not healed. Inanimated objects cannot have placebo effects because they do not have a conscious on their own.

The next is that you're arguing that "Dark Worlds do not follow physics because they're non-euclidean due to their size not matching the building they're based on", which is... not true?

There is literally no evidence for this besides "they're shaped based on the creator's willpower", but that does not mean they do not follow physics, as things like gravity, speed or causality all happen like one would expect to, there is no statement of physics being warped in the Dark World. Do we invalidate feats for worlds created by Subjective Reality or still created by an entity just because they're made from some power instead of a big bang? Obviously not, we'd have to make franchises that are fictional in-universe unusable under physics due to their mechanics and physics being shaped by the will of the creator being.

This is really ironic because prior in the Undertale speed downgrade CRT you've argued that the sound attacks in Undertale are not "realistic" because of them not being omni-directional waves, and yet, you argue that the sound attacks in Deltarune are actually sound-speed despite them not being that and moving as note-shaped bullets in a specific, unrealistic pattern like Shyren's attacks do, try to be consistent here little bro.

And before you say "but Undertale is not Deltarune", remember that both games are made from the same person, the battles follow mostly the same gameplay, and overall the mechanics are near identical, so I am indeed allowed to call you out on this.

Meaning that I can indeed say that all of these sound anti feats you've mentioned are invalid. You cannot keep a cake (calling the sound-based attacks unrealistic because of them not behaving like that) and then eating it too (using said sound-based attacks as anti feats against anything higher).

The "contradictions" against the Zapper's feat are nonsense as well:

• Why is them being increased by sound manipulation a problem? Not only your scan does not even use sound, but it's a pun for "volume" meaning both the physical size in 3 dimensions and the intensity of the sound. It's clear that sound is not literally involved here, why is it assumed besides a pun of "well he's a tv remote that increases the volume, but here it means how big the attacks are, not the sound in actuality!"
• Why is it having a tail relevant?

I think that the thing is indeed intented to be light here, we have two statements inting that the thing uses infrared rays, which are, you know, light. There is also the fact that there are no real contradictions to the thing behaving realistically, as it goes in a straight way, it bounces off walls like the real ones do, and comes from a remoter. It being magic means nothing here.

Also for the point of Kris being tagged from sound waves, why can't I also go in the opposite direction and say that's an outlier compared to anything else? Susie was already fast enough to block literal soundwaves in Chapter 1, and the characters are stated that they become faster the more the story goes on. We have also the SoJ feat that you mentioned in the CRT as a way to say that they blitz sound, why is Wicabel's stuff a relevant anti feat?

This entire thing is stupid, too. I'd like to mention that the existence of a UES is irrelevant because of this conversation I had with @Ultima_Reality on the topic:

This is because of two reasons:

1. Titans being fountains is not the sole reason why they're 7-B. Te reason why they're 7-B is also due to them sustaining and keeping these fountains in existence by existing, while also shaping them. Them being the Dark Worlds is not the main evidence, the main evidence is them being the Dark Fountains that give forms to these fountains and make them instantly disappear the moment they're sealed.
   1. It's a living Dark Fountain, which can create the Dark Worlds, give them forms, and instantly make them disappear the moment they're sealed, as creating it requires the creation of a Dark Fountain, with Ralsei saying that the Fountain is the Titan itself, and later on saying that a Titan is born when the Dark Fountains become too strong and the flow of darkness becomes wild and that both a Titan and a Fountain could be sealed the same way due to them being supposedly the same thing, with him being then proven right when Kris sealed a Titan in the same way they do so with a Dark Fountain.
2. UES is irrelevant for a Sustenance Feat, the page does not mention it as a requirement, it only mentions that it's their power what's supposed to sustain it. And isn't the fact that it's made of Darkness itself be a relevant factor on why it physically scales? They're not just some byproducts of Darkness like Darkners are, they're the very source that sustains the existence of these Dark Worlds in the first place.

Absolutely, utterly ******* not.

Yes, Light and Darkness are used as allegories for reality and fiction, but you're basically saying that Light is not really like, and Darkness is not really Darkness, when Ralsei literally says that the Dark Worlds are just the version on steroids of what happens if your mind starts to make up stuff when there's not enough light to make a clear view on the surroundings. So what stops me from saying that Light and Darkness can be both literally light and darkness and also an allegory to that at the same time? You did not give an answer to this, you just said that light in Deltarune is not really light, despite you also saying in the CRT that Kris also gets Light Manipulation despite you saying that they don't produce real light!

Plus the Jackenstein stuff is not relevant at all here, it can be attributed to just the light expanding in intensity, similairly to how lighters work. Plus you're lying, the "beams" shot from our SOUL expand at the same speed as the "main light" during the battle.

This is also just dogshit.

The fight being a reference to YTPs debunks what, exactly? We all know that the lore of Undertale and Deltarune for more than half the time are basically what happens if you mix Final Fantasy with Captain Underpants, some feats are indeed bound to be gag or humorous. Is there a standard saying that gag feats are automatically discarded? No, they do only if they're one-time events that are not repeated anywhere else in more serious instances, unless we're in comical verses like most of the Toons where every feat they have is a gag, does it mean that, for example, all of the feats in Looney Tunes are invalid because their whole verse is a shitpost?

Plus, the "intent" inherently doesn't mean jack here. To cite a popular example, Butch Hartman, when watching a Death Battle episode involving Danny Phantom, one of the series he wrote, was surprised at Danny vaporizing a golf area being almost 560 Tons of TNT in power. It was clear that it was not the intent of a feat vaporizing a chunk of soil being comparable to the power to blow up multiple city blocks, but it is if we actually take in physics and the actual implications of the feat.

Toby Fox is not a powerscaler either, and he definitely does not think of feats and stuff like that when coding his games, he's only a guy who is a massive Nintendo nerd who makes a love tribute to his childhood. You cannot expect him to be a overfixated nerd over physics to make everything coherent, that's just insane.

The feat you show is not an indicator of the characters being sound timers either (especially when you said before that they get blized by "sound attacks" multiple times, contradictions huh?), just that they're much faster than sound, and being FTL is enought to achieve that.

By this logic, every series featuring anything that should be FTE to humans would genuinely use instances of common humans following fights as an anti feat for whatever FTE and above speed rating because "they're not meant to blitz humans 1 trillion times per second", no author intends for that, we only use what the series offers with feats, because if we otherwise start to use author intent then we use some kind of authority that you cannot prove it exists in the first place.

So, if you wanna know why I gave "short answers" to things, is because to me:

• You said a whole bunch of nothing almost all the time that can be debunked with little things.
• You just started to make standards on your own (seriously the "light beam having a tail" just sends me)
• You misunderstood our stabilization standard.
• You basically made up a false dilemma on the whole light and darkness stuff
• You made a bunch of assumptions on authorial intent

I won't reply to further replies unless I find them relevant enough to my case. Gonna wait for staff now.

I originally had something else written, but StrymUltra's response was a better version of what I was going to write. However, I will add that even if we were to take this at face value, all this would really do is grant the Lightners Physics Manipulation and Subjective Reality - there would still need to be additional proof for every feat you wish to discount. To your credit, you did do this.

Additionally, the Dark World being made of willpower is not, at all, relevant here. It's the non-euclidean arguments that are.



It seems that at least at this point in the story, we're a bit too reliant on speculation (both sides) to fully determine if the effects are fully placebo. Strym noting that Tenna is completely destroyed in the light world however, is a pretty powerful counterargument though.

I also note that everything I said above is still relevant here.



I initially did agree that the FTL scaling was a bit lackluster (neutral on the anti-feats, but more so agreeing on the lack of support) but if it is noted to be an infrared laser, then I have no problem with the scaling staying.



I'm pretty sure I misunderstood this argument, because from what I'm understanding, you were arguing that the Soul light doesn't count because its an analogy for reality?

While I agree that it is an analogy, I do not understand why we would stop treating it as a real light? Themes and such are not relevant in powerscaling.



Is it a non-canon gag feat with the character having zero relevance for the story? If so, I could agree with you here. Otherwise, I will have to agree with Strym here.

The feat in the fight is simply the character moving fast while making funny sounds; there's nothing to suggest it's a non-canon gag feat
This character is relevant to the development of one of the protagonists, provides an important object to advance the plot, and helps at the end of the chapter. In other words, this isn't a joke character

Edit: +

There is literally no evidence for why the Dark Worlds should vary this much in size besides "huuuh what if they do!?". If anything, the 7-B is a downplay given that the rooms that the TV World and the Sactuary DWs are based on are bigger, so their DWs are definitely larger as well.

The issue is that there is not a real anti feat against Rela+ besides cherry picked evidence.

The **** are you even talking about? It being analogous to reality is NOT evidende of it being unrealistic, please quote me the standards where it says that it shaping reality is evidence for it not being SoL.

Like, this is the stuff against a beam being SoL:

Furthermore, there are a few criteria which show that a beam is not behaving like realistic light:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

NONE of this falls within what the SOUL light does, at all. You're making up standards on the fly just like Charmander does.

 

[Psychomaster35]

After going through everything, Strym's arguments make a lot more sense to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Strym's arguments make more sense to me.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

there is no statement of physics being warped in the Dark World

I mean...

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean...

And here I was worried fr for a second lol

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Giving a 24 hour break was a mistake.

The Strym response doesn't address responses about inconsistency, non-euclidean spaces and misunderstands the point about intent, and straight up gets the Jackenstein light being contradicted point wrong, all these light animations have different speeds, and Jackenstein cutscene light is faster than all of them. Yet it's being agreed upon while not refuting everything.

Strym's arguments make more sense to me.

What are the key posts to read for the pro and anti sides?

I originally had something else written, but StrymUltra's response was a better version of what I was going to write. However, I will add that even if we were to take this at face value, all this would really do is grant the Lightners Physics Manipulation and Subjective Reality - there would still need to be additional proof for every feat you wish to discount. To your credit, you did do this.

Additionally, the Dark World being made of willpower is not, at all, relevant here. It's the non-euclidean arguments that are.



It seems that at least at this point in the story, we're a bit too reliant on speculation (both sides) to fully determine if the effects are fully placebo. Strym noting that Tenna is completely destroyed in the light world however, is a pretty powerful counterargument though.

I also note that everything I said above is still relevant here.



I initially did agree that the FTL scaling was a bit lackluster (neutral on the anti-feats, but more so agreeing on the lack of support) but if it is noted to be an infrared laser, then I have no problem with the scaling staying.



I'm pretty sure I misunderstood this argument, because from what I'm understanding, you were arguing that the Soul light doesn't count because its an analogy for reality?

While I agree that it is an analogy, I do not understand why we would stop treating it as a real light? Themes and such are not relevant in powerscaling.



Is it a non-canon gag feat with the character having zero relevance for the story? If so, I could agree with you here. Otherwise, I will have to agree with Strym here.

Do I even get a chance to respond?

 

[AguilaR202]

I agree with speed downgrades given the inconsistent portrayal of attacks with realistically massive gaps in speed being portrayed as moving at similar or unrealistically slow speeds. There is no objective frame of reference to gauge them unless they’re using natural sources.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Strym response doesn't address responses about inconsistency, non-euclidean spaces and misunderstands the point about intent, and straight up gets the Jackenstein light being contradicted point wrong, all these light animations have different speeds, and Jackenstein cutscene light is faster than all of them. Yet it's being agreed upon while not refuting everything.

I am not gonna go in a back and forth, you do not tell me if my argument addresses stuff or not, what matters is getting the staff votes ultimately.

Staff agree with my arguments, not yours, get over it.

Do I even get a chance to respond?

Technically 2 staff disagreeing are enough to close a CRT given Deltarune is not a controversial verse.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I am not gonna go in a back and forth, you do not tell me if my argument addresses stuff or not, what matters is getting the staff votes ultimately.

Staff agree with my arguments, not yours, get over it.

"You can't tell me my arguments ignored a portion of the CRT that was relevant to the conclusion."

Yes I can. Because it's true. Also, why do you think Staff agreement is set in stone and impossible to change?

Technically 2 staff disagreeing are enough to close a CRT given Deltarune is not a controversial verse.

You genuinely think I don't have a right to respond, this is insane.

 

[ScoutManeater]

Usually id say charmander should get a chance but technically all of his arguements should be in his CRT already and since the mods should have looked over it I feel like its fair if they made their decision

If you have left out details on your arguement I feel like that falls on Charmander

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes I can. Because it's true. Also, why do you think Staff agreement is set in stone and impossible to change?

Why should I feel I am wrong after that you said this?

You genuinely think I don't have a right to respond, this is insane.

Technically you do not really, given the rules. But it depends on what they decide.

 

[Axorandom0]

i will say, y'all stop being so argumentative & aggressive and give him a chance to form a countercounter argument. there's parts of the crt i don't agree with but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to give a proper one.

 

[SomebodyData]

Do I even get a chance to respond?

You should still be allowed to argue your points. Like I said in my post, a lot of it is similar to Strym's but I'm still open to your response of course.

 

[Qurbonboev]

TL;DR: Dark Worlds are made from willpower, not energy.

Sorry for not participating early. Had family stuff to do. Thankfully sups did their job.
But, did anyone tackled this part?
Darks Words aren't made of willpower(mental trait), they are made through Will/Determination. Said Will is produced by Lightner Souls, which is already enough to rule out it being just Willpower(mental trait). Darkners don't have this Will, indicating their soullessness, but they have normal mental traits, have goals and fight for them, indicating that they have willpower(mental trait).
It's not me just theorycrafting btw. My reasoning of Will being something different than just mere Willpower(mental trait) was already accepted in previous CRT, just look at physiologies page.
And this reasoning was accepted before this tweet from Toby. Shadow crystals hold power of the Will, their magical properties(which persist in Light World) are due to it.
I think it's enough of evidence to say that Deltarune Will is clearly something magical, akin to UT Determination.

Also, Deltarune Will only creates connection between LW and DW, allowing Darkness(which does reality warping) to pour into LW, and then shapes resulting world. So correct conclusion would be:
"DWs are made through reality warping properties of Darkness, which can pour into our world through connection made by Lighthers Will, which itself is strange magical substance"

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The way Vs Battle Wiki go about CRTs is genuinely mindboggling to me. One response of a guy basically ignoring every single anti-feat I've proposed, saying "being non-euclidean and having an irrealistic source for darkness" doesn't matter, it does, and that "author intent doesn't matter" is enough to dismantle a well-made revision on the verse, without even giving me a chance to clap back and prove how the response gets many points wrong about my original argumentation.

-snip-

This response literally doesn't address a lot of things I've pointed out.

The "Dark Worlds Cannot Be Fake" Argument

The Titans rising and destroying the Light World being a real catastrophe has been addressed already and the response given before stands, the threat the Roaring poses is ontological. Darkness consuming the Light World is dangerous because it imposes the fantasy framework over reality, turning what is real into what is not. That is a metaphysical threat entirely consistent with the CRT's framework. Ralsei's explanation that Dark Fountains turn everything into a fantasy is the mechanism of the Roaring. An expanding fantasy consuming reality is catastrophic without that fantasy containing physically real energy attacks. The two are not in tension. They are not mutually exclusive.

And another thing.

Stop using "literally fake" or any sort of arguments of that caliber. That is not what I'm arguing for, they exist to some extent, yes, but they're shaped by willpower and imagination, which has been things that manifested into reality in fiction before, yes, but the point is, being made by concepts like that IS support that these magic bulelts are fantasy and could very well not have realistic properties, as you, yourself, refused to acknowledge how inconsistent they are across the board. I acknowledge that they can interact, you're responding to nothing.

If the laser was actually light speed, why is the Fun Gang being tagged by sound waves in Chapter 4? You brushed right off that point.

The balance argument from the prophecy remains an inference layered onto text that doesn't contain it explicitly, as already established. The prophecy treating both Light and Dark as narratively significant does not require Dark to be physically real in the sense needed for energy scaling. Dreams are narratively significant. That doesn't mean their Darkner lightning travels at the speed of real lightning.

The Tenna argument is genuinely a nothing burger. This is acknowledged. But notice what this actually establishes versus what it needs to establish. The Tenna situation is a real person, using a real weapon, and hitting a real TV. They just did that in a fantasy framework. Causality still exists, this was never challenged. This doesn't refute the fantasy nature of the framework in any way. And it didn't even translate 1 to 1, as removing Tenna's arms caused a bit of the TV's glass to be broken on the side like it's being hit with a bat.

The destruction of the Darkner correlating with destruction of the anchor object is coherent within the CRT's framework: the willpower-darkness construct and its physical anchor are connected, and damage to one propagates to the other through that connection. This is not physical energy transfer in the conventional sense.

Berdly's case remains distinct because Berdly is a biological organism whose real-world consequence, an arm that doesn't function, has no identifiable physical cause consistent with the attack delivered, which is precisely what the CRT documents. Berdly has no frostbite, no tissue damage, no physiological evidence of genuine freezing. Tenna being a television that is physically destroyed is not analogous because televisions don't develop psychosomatic symptoms.

---

The Non-Euclidean Argument


The claim that "there is no evidence besides them being shaped by willpower" for the Dark World violating physics is directly contradicted by the concrete numerical demonstration in the CRT.

The library creating a city and the church creating a smaller sanctuary are, literally, observable spatial relationships in the game that directly contradict physical conservation. A 100m² space producing a 10,000m² city is not a building shaped by willpower that still follows physics, and a 450m² amount of darkness creating a barely 4500m² sanctuary if we use the best case scenario. That is the definition of non-Euclidean geometry and it is not a statement being imposed on the game. It is what the game shows.

A lesser amount of darkness created a larger amount of physical space. That means that being the darkness, and being made from said darkness does not require you to sustain proportionally the amount of space that your internal world has. Darkness can make that world out of immeasurable concepts. Darkness is not proportional to the size of its worlds, that argument is the definitive concrete proof that the Titan wouldn't have to sustain its hypothetical dark world just to exist.

The Subjective Reality comparison doesn't rescue this. VSBW's Subjective Reality page describes an ability to alter reality according to one's perception.

But guys, come on, that is LITERALLY not the argument. It's easy to refute an idea that was never proposed by anyone.
The CRT's argument is not that "Dark Worlds are created by Subjective Reality and therefore invalid."

It is that the specific mechanism of Dark World creation, willpower and darkness producing thematically determined spaces rather than energetically determined ones, means size-based energy calculations are not applicable because the size is not the product of energy expenditure.

Also Subjective Reality created worlds on the wiki are evaluated case by case based on whether their internal physics are consistent enough for calculation. The CRT documents that Dark World physics are demonstrably inconsistent, which is precisely the condition under which calculation is not appropriate regardless of the creation mechanism.

Gravity and causality operating normally in the Dark World does not establish that all physics apply. Selective physical consistency is not full physical consistency.

The attacks are the specific phenomenon being evaluated, and their behavior is documented across Chapters 2, 3, and 4 as inconsistent with real physical laws regardless of whether gravity works normally.

---

The Undertale Consistency Accusation

Yes, Strym. I argued that the music notes in Undertale were not realistic, and therefore, not sound speed.
Here I'm arguing that music notes in Deltarune are not realistic, and therefore, not sound speed.

What exactly is the contradiction here? The fact music notes that are supposed to be sound speed (they are quite literally produced by ringing a bell) under any assumption without contexts are unrealistic is literally an argument that the magic attacks are not realistic and shaped by willpower. Thus, a support that other magic of the game has no obligation to be realistic.

This CRT literally argues sound attacks in Deltarune are not realistic because they demonstrably don't travel at consistent speeds, lasers have tails (thus they CURVE at their rear end), move in specific paths, and bullets get outpaced by sound in the same sequence, all of these are collective evidence that these things don't move at realistic speeds. And if you dislike the sound anti-feat, the bullet anti-feat itself works against FTL. Kris is faster than the bullets, but they are still moving relative to them. FTL Kris, btw.

These positions are not contradictory. They are the same position applied to two different verses: attacks that don't behave according to real physics shouldn't be scaled to real physics. Calling both sets of attacks unrealistic for their respective demonstrated behaviors is applying the same standard consistently. The accusation of inconsistency requires demonstrating that one of these conclusions is wrong, not just that both reached the same verdict about different attacks for documented reasons.

The claim that both games are made by the same person and have similar mechanics is true and actually strengthens the CRT's position rather than undermining it. As we currently accept that the magic in Undertale is unrealistic and doesn't use realistic speeds.

If both are "made by the same person", and "have similar mechanics", then both are not fit for realistic portrayals. You sure you want to go that route?

---

Zapper
The "volume as a pun" argument doesn't survive contact with the actual issue.

Yes, duh, it's a pun, but it's still sound manipulation affecting supposed light, which is unrealistic.

Mind you, they achieve this by pressing buttons on the controller to increase the volume of the sound, which in turn increases the size of the infrared beam, and this is not unrealistic? Do real controllers have thicker infrared when I turn up the volume of the TV?

Whether the mechanic is a pun or not is irrelevant.

The point is that a realistic infrared laser's size is not alterable by any in-game mechanic under any framework. Real infrared beams don't expand when you turn up the volume in any sense. The mechanic existing, pun or not, demonstrates the attack is operating under fantasy rules rather than realistic physics. It literally produces physically impossible results.

Infrared radiation is light, that's correct.

But infrared remote controls operate at extremely low power levels, are not coherent beams, and do not travel in the collimated straight-line fashion shown.

The attack having a visible tail is not an arbitrary complaint btw. Real light does not have a tail.

A tail on a light-speed projectile is physically impossible because it would require the light to be visible at positions it has already left, which contradicts how light propagation works. The tail is direct visual evidence that the attack is not traveling at the speed of real light regardless of what it is thematically intended to represent.

Bouncing off walls is consistent with infrared remotes, yes, but the bounceable surface in the game is explicitly not a reflective material for infrared purposes. It doesn't just bounce off any walls in a perfect angle like that.

---

The Sound Anti-Feats And Susie Blocking Soundwaves

Susie blocking soundwaves in Chapter 1 being used to argue the characters are already sound-speed actually supports the CRT's framework rather than defeating it, because if the characters were already sound-speed in Chapter 1 from that feat, then being barely faster than sound attacks in Chapter 4, after being stated to have grown stronger, is far more consistent under your own framework. You cannot use Susie blocking sound in Chapter 1 to establish sound-speed and then dismiss Chapter 4 sound-tagging as an outlier. The outlier designation has to go somewhere, and it cannot go to both simultaneously based on which one supports the preferred conclusion.

Also... Yeah?

Susie is subsonic in Chapter 1
Grew stronger.
Susie is now High Hypersonic in Chapter 4.

That... agrees with my point. Do you think Susie being subsonic in Chapter 1 is support for them being relativistic+? My point presents a much more consistent framework.

The characters being stated to grow stronger as the story progresses means Chapter 4 characters should be faster than Chapter 1 characters. Being tagged by sound in Chapter 4 while allegedly being FTL based on Jackenstein is a larger contradiction than being tagged by sound in Chapter 1. The statement about growth makes the Chapter 4 anti-feats more damning, not less.

The Sound of Justice feat being used to say they blitz sound and therefore sound-tagging is an outlier creates an immediate problem. The Sound of Justice cutscene is the only deliberately animated cutscene in the entire game where Toby Fox specifically chose to depict a character's speed relative to sound.

Also, yeah? The shockwaves that are sound speed, even if you ignore the music notes, contradict the narrative. Also, making the SOJ argument while trying to vouch for FTL is hilarious.

---

The Titan Sustenance Feat Argument
The VSBW Stabilization Feats page is being cited as support for the Titan's 7-B rating via sustaining the Dark World.

Sustenance feats derive AP from the energy required to maintain a construct in existence. The energy value is calculated from the construct being sustained.

For Dark World sustenance to yield 7-B, the Dark World itself must be a physically real space whose existence requires physically real energy to maintain.

It's NOT.

The CRT's argument that Dark Worlds are non-Euclidean, thematically determined spaces rather than energetically determined ones directly undermines the premise of the sustenance calculation. If the Dark World's size is not the product of energy expenditure but of willpower and theme, the energy required to sustain it is not derivable from its apparent dimensions using standard calculations.

The sustenance feat standard doesn't bypass the non-Euclidean problem.

Furthermore, the CRT documents that the size of Dark Worlds is not proportional to the physical space of their origin, which means even if sustenance feats were applicable, the size value being used for the calculation is not a physically meaningful quantity. The Titan sustaining a city-sized Dark World does not imply city-level energy if the city-sized Dark World required no city-level energy to exist in the first place.

Also, LET'S READ THE RULES, SHALL WE?

Requirement 2 explicitly states that the structure must be directly sustained by the character's own power and not by their existence, magical properties, or an unknown metaphysical connection. Titan's is sustained by its existence, and has an unknown metaphysical connection, willpower.

The Dark Worlds are repeatedly described as manifestations of darkness, willpower, fantasy, and determination, with their existence tied to the Fountain system itself rather than to measurable energetic output from the Titans. That immediately raises the exact limitation the page warns about: a magical or unknown component linking the structure to the entity independent of regular statistics.

Requirement 3 is also not satisfied because there is no evidence that sustaining a Dark World is comparable to physically destroying or overpowering the entirety of that structure. The Roaring is portrayed as an ontological collapse where Darkness overtakes reality conceptually, not as a conventional explosion or energetic annihilation of a city-sized construct. The standards explicitly distinguish between sustaining a structure and matching the force required to completely destroy it, and Dark Worlds are never shown to instantly collapse from lack of raw power in the manner required for direct AP equivalence.

Requirement 4 additionally remains unsupported because the Titans' supposed stabilization level does not consistently scale to regular combat statistics anywhere in the narrative. The verse repeatedly depicts combat through highly abstract, fantasy-driven attacks with inconsistent physical behavior, making it impossible to establish that sustaining a thematically generated Dark World translates to conventional destructive output.

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Light And Darkness As Allegory
The argument that Light and Darkness can be both literal and allegorical simultaneously is not unreasonable, but:

the literal interpretation to be supported by consistent behavior, and the CRT documents that the literal interpretation is not consistently supported. The SOUL's light varying in speed across the same fight sequence is not consistent with literal light.

Real light speed does not vary. An attack whose speed varies cannot be literal light because the defining characteristic of literal light is its constant propagation speed. The inconsistency in the light's behavior disqualifies the literal interpretation, because the one thing real light cannot do is travel at different speeds in the same medium.

The CRT explicitly states the soul light can be kept on the profile as light manipulation since it does illuminate things. The argument is not that the light is not light in any sense. It is that it is not physically real photons traveling at physically real lightspeed, which is specifically what the speed scaling requires. Manipulating light as a phenomenon and traveling at the speed of real photons are different claims and the CRT distinguishes between them precisely.

The Jackenstein lighter comparison doesn't account for the documented speed variation across the fight. A lighter expanding in intensity produces a single continuous illumination event, not multiple discrete beams traveling at measurably different speeds from the same source at the same moment. The CRT documents specific frame counts showing dramatically different propagation speeds for different light events in the same fight: 10 frames for the circle to reach its full radius, 4 frames for the light cannons to reach the edge of the battle box, and 1 frame for Jackenstein's light to cover the entire screen. That variation is not attributable to intensity differences in any physically coherent way.

Also, beams of light are not shot out of an omnidirectional light source from varying intensity, the fact its shooting beams at random is proof its not realistic light.

---

Gag Feats And Author Intent

The Butch Hartman comparison fails at the level of basic analogy and it needs to be dissected precisely because it's being deployed as though it settles the question when it actually inverts it.

What Butch Hartman did was write Danny vaporizing a golf area. The feat happened. It is in the show. It is a real depicted event.

Hartman was simply unaware of the energy implications of something he deliberately wrote.

Yes, Strym, you are right!
That is the correct application of the "author intent doesn't determine feat validity" principle, because there is a feat to evaluate. The physics of vaporization apply to the event regardless of whether Hartman knew the numbers. Intent about the implications of a feat is irrelevant. The feat exists. Great!

That doesn't apply to the Jackenstein and Zapper feats, though.

The Jackenstein situation is categorically different and the distinction is not subtle.

The argument is not "Toby Fox didn't intend for the light to be this fast and therefore it doesn't count."

That would be the Butch Hartman parallel and it would be a bad argument.

The argument is that there is no comparative interaction between the light and Jackenstein's movement to evaluate in the first place. Jackenstein's movement is a documented gag, a deliberate YTP reference built from sentence mixing, visual stretching, and explicit reference to YTP source phrases.

The light animation is a separate event that does not interact with Jackenstein's movement in any frame-by-frame way that would allow a speed comparison. There isn't a feat here.

These are two independent animations running in the same fight, not a depiction of one thing moving relative to another.

For the Butch Hartman principle to apply, there needs to be a feat. A feat requires a depicted interaction or event with calculable physical implications. Two animations in a gag fight do not constitute a depicted interaction. There is nothing to apply physics to because the game never depicted the light and the character's movement as causally or temporally related in the way required for a speed feat.

This is why "Toby Fox is not a powerscaler" is such a poor response to this specific argument. It would be relevant if the claim were "Toby didn't intend the light to be that fast therefore it isn't." But that's not what's being argued.

The claim is that Toby deliberately animated a gag fight without any intention of depicting a speed relationship, meaning the perceived speed comparison is an artifact of two separate animations existing in the same sequence, not a real depicted event. You don't need to be a powerscaler to know whether you depicted two things moving relative to each other. You just need to have made a deliberate creative choice about what you were showing, and the documented YTP references throughout Jackenstein's fight establish that the deliberate creative choice was comedic homage, not speed depiction. Unlike Hartman, who chose to show Danny vaporizing something and was simply unaware of the energy math, Toby Fox did not choose to show Jackenstein's movement relative to the light in any causally meaningful way. They were animated separately and this is proven by the fact all the light sources don't necessarily respect one another.

The former is a feat with unknown implications. The latter is not a feat.

The narrative contradiction compounds this further and was not addressed in the response being replied to, which is telling. The SOUL's light varies in propagation speed across the same fight and in comparison to other light sources in the game. Real light cannot vary in speed.

A depicted interaction involving something that demonstrably does not behave as real light cannot be used to establish a speed feat based on the assumption that it is real light.

Even if you granted that Jackenstein's fight contained a genuine speed comparison, which it doesn't for the reasons already established, the light being compared against is documented as non-physical across multiple independent showings.

You cannot extract a physically meaningful speed value from a comparison involving a reference object whose speed is demonstrably not fixed or physically real. The Butch Hartman case works because vaporization has fixed, calculable energy requirements regardless of authorial awareness.

This case fails because the reference phenomenon, the light, has no fixed speed to measure against. It is not that the implications of the feat are unknown to the author. It is that the reference object the feat would be measured against is inconsistent by direct in-game demonstration, meaning even a genuine interaction would yield no usable number.

The Sound of Justice cutscene is the correct contrast here and it exposes exactly why Jackenstein fails as a feat source. In that cutscene, Toby Fox made specific deliberate animation choices to depict a character's movement relative to sound waves in a non-gag narrative context.

EDIT: SOUND OF JUSTICE CAN LITERALLY DODGE KRIS' ATTACKS WITH EASE

And you think I'm "making up authorital intent"? Is that not evidence that Toby Fox knows exactly where his characters are in speed?

Every frame of that sequence reflects an intentional decision about how the character moves relative to a known reference. That is a depicted interaction with a physically meaningful reference object. That is what a feat looks like. Jackenstein has none of these properties: no deliberate speed depiction, no causally related interaction between the character and the light, a documented gag framework governing the entire fight, and a reference object whose speed is contradicted by other in-game showings.

The gap between what Jackenstein's fight is and what the Sound of Justice cutscene is represents the gap between a non-feat and a feat, and treating them as comparable speed sources requires ignoring everything that makes the distinction meaningful.

---

ADDITIONALLY:
The claim that authorial intent never matters is ABSOLUTELY NONSENSICAL to survive serious analysis. Of course, you used a false equivalence to claim that. Of course it matters, the Butch argument literally relies on his authorial intent of having Danny Phantom vaporizing the golf area. If he came out and said something else happened completely and it wasn't Danny who did it, it would have been removed from profiles. What doesn't matter is his ignorance on what that entails.

A fictional feat is, literally, an interpretive claim about what the work depicts, what the work consistently supports, and what the work is trying to present inside its own narrative logic.

If an author repeatedly presents a character as operating below a certain threshold, and the surrounding material keeps reinforcing that ceiling through direct depiction, later scaling cannot erase that pattern without a much stronger reason than a single high-end interpretation.

A profile built from feats is still an evidentiary model. It is not a license to discard the total record of the text in favor of the most extreme reading available. Which is precisely what FTL Deltarune is doing.

If an author openly does not regard a character as FTL, and the work keeps producing feats far beneath FTL by several orders of magnitude, then the rational reading is not "the highest feat wins no matter what." The rational reading is "the apparent high-end reading is likely a misread, a stylized sequence, a gameplay abstraction, or a non-literal presentation." This is basic evidentiary discipline. How is that not the case?

When the bulk of the material points in one direction and a lone upscale points in the opposite direction, the burden shifts hard onto the upscale. It must prove why it overrides the wider body of evidence. Mere existence is not enough.

A feat must be contextualized, and context includes the creator’s consistent portrayal, not as an infallible trump card, sure but IT IS a critical interpretive constraint.

This is why "author intent does not matter" fails as a universal rule. If taken literally, it destroys the distinction between portrayal and extraction. The analysis, BY ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, becomes a cherry-picked output. Any character with a single exaggerated visual could be forced into the highest possible tier even when the rest of the work contradicts it.

The correct standard is not blind deference to author statements, and not blind rejection of them either. The correct standard is hierarchy of evidence. Narrative framing, and creator clarification all matter in proportion to how much they constrain interpretation. When an author persistently frames the character below a given level, that framing becomes strong evidence against inflated scaling, especially when the feats used to support the inflation depend on non-literal presentation. So the issue is not whether author intent alone decides the debate. It does not. The issue is whether one may ignore sustained authorial portrayal entirely once a high-end reading appears. The answer is no. If the work, over and over, presents a character beneath FTL by wide margins, then calling the character FTL anyway demands proof strong enough to overcome a stable pattern of contrary evidence. Without that, the "highest feat" rule becomes a loophole that rewards selective reading and punishes textual consistency.



EDIT:

You already admitted the music note attacks are not actual sound.

That creates a contradiction in your standard.

So when a Darkner based on a bell, instrument, speaker, or sound concepts fires "music notes," there is no obligation for those attacks to obey real-world acoustics or sound propagation. They are magical bullet patterns tied to the Darkner’s thematic identity. That matters because your position selectively applies realism only when convenient.

If a Darkner Bell does not need to produce literal sound waves with realistic sonic velocities, then a Darkner Remote also does not need to produce literal infrared beams with real-world propagation speeds.

Both are manifestations of Dark World magic derived from object symbolism.

You cannot say:

"Music notes are magical abstractions, therefore they are not sound."

while simultaneously arguing:

“Remote attacks must inherit real infrared properties and speeds from real remotes.”

That is cherry-picking the exact degree of realism you want from object representation.

So the standard needs to stay consistent: Either Darkners inherit strict real-world physics from their source objects across the board, or they do not.

You cannot dismiss instrument-based attacks as non-literal magic, then immediately turn around and demand scientific realism from remote-control attacks because it benefits a speed interpretation.

Strym's arguments make more sense to me.

What are the key posts to read for the pro and anti sides?

I originally had something else written, but StrymUltra's response was a better version of what I was going to write. However, I will add that even if we were to take this at face value, all this would really do is grant the Lightners Physics Manipulation and Subjective Reality - there would still need to be additional proof for every feat you wish to discount. To your credit, you did do this.

Additionally, the Dark World being made of willpower is not, at all, relevant here. It's the non-euclidean arguments that are.



It seems that at least at this point in the story, we're a bit too reliant on speculation (both sides) to fully determine if the effects are fully placebo. Strym noting that Tenna is completely destroyed in the light world however, is a pretty powerful counterargument though.

I also note that everything I said above is still relevant here.



I initially did agree that the FTL scaling was a bit lackluster (neutral on the anti-feats, but more so agreeing on the lack of support) but if it is noted to be an infrared laser, then I have no problem with the scaling staying.



I'm pretty sure I misunderstood this argument, because from what I'm understanding, you were arguing that the Soul light doesn't count because its an analogy for reality?

While I agree that it is an analogy, I do not understand why we would stop treating it as a real light? Themes and such are not relevant in powerscaling.



Is it a non-canon gag feat with the character having zero relevance for the story? If so, I could agree with you here. Otherwise, I will have to agree with Strym here.

If this doesn't change the opinion of any of you, you can genuinely just close this CRT. I'd be done with Deltarune as a whole.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Will/Determination

You can use will or determination and interpret them as "some soul magic" too, that wouldn't change the argument that the worlds are made by "the power of believing really hard".

 

[Maniaunavailable]

I think styrm makes more sense (I just read through all this)

 

[Robo432343]

I think styrm makes more sense (I just read through all this)

I think charmaner makes more sense (I just read through all this)

 

[Qurbonboev]

You can use will or determination and interpret them as "some soul magic" too, that wouldn't change the argument that the worlds are made by "the power of believing really hard".

Does it matter in the slightest(for powerscaling purposes)? Ok, Will is "the power of believing really hard". Said power can be contained in Macguffins, and has magical properties even in the Light World (real world, which supposedly shouldn't have magical things).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Does it matter in the slightest(for powerscaling purposes)?

Yes, because it's non-euclidean and uses a magic source, the Titans don't have to necessarily sustain a realistic amount of energy.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yes, because it's non-euclidean and uses a magic source, the Titans don't have to necessarily sustain a realistic amount of energy.

1. I doubt that even 1% of stabilisation feat in the site are done via non magic source
2. Why it being non-eucledian even matter, eucledian spaces are very small subsets of actual spaces. Flat surface is eucledian, Universe is not eucledian, surface of the planet is not eucledian. Can you be more concrete?

 

[ScoutManeater]

This CRT literally argues sound attacks in Deltarune are not realistic because they demonstrably don't travel at consistent speeds, lasers have tails (thus they CURVE at their rear end), move in specific paths, and bullets get outpaced by sound in the same sequence, all of these are collective evidence that these things don't move at realistic speeds. And if you dislike the sound anti-feat, the bullet anti-feat itself works against FTL. Kris is faster than the bullets, but they are still moving relative to them. FTL Kris, btw.


Susie blocking soundwaves in Chapter 1 being used to argue the characters are already sound-speed actually supports the CRT's framework rather than defeating it, because if the characters were already sound-speed in Chapter 1 from that feat, then being barely faster than sound attacks in Chapter 4, after being stated to have grown stronger, is far more consistent under your own framework. You cannot use Susie blocking sound in Chapter 1 to establish sound-speed and then dismiss Chapter 4 sound-tagging as an outlier. The outlier designation has to go somewhere, and it cannot go to both simultaneously based on which one supports the preferred conclusion.


The Sound of Justice feat being used to say they blitz sound and therefore sound-tagging is an outlier creates an immediate problem. The Sound of Justice cutscene is the only deliberately animated cutscene in the entire game where Toby Fox specifically chose to depict a character's speed relative to sound.

Also, yeah? The shockwaves that are sound speed, even if you ignore the music notes, contradict the narrative. Also, making the SOJ argument while trying to vouch for FTL is hilarious.

Im gonna be honest Using SoJ just proves they are faster then sound you cant say he blitzed them as this is completely in the dark



Second, sound moving faster then bullets or kris somehow moving realtive to bullets bullets vary in speed so unless you wanna put bullets at their max speed you cant really use this arguement all this proves is that these bullets are slower then sound and Kris do not move realtive to these bullets as later in your CRT you state that the bullets are moving in slow motion compared to the sound only proving further that Kris is faster

Getting tagged by a attack is not a anti feat just because this player got tagged by it does not mean others cant dodge it its like saying because I played deltarune and got hit by every sound attack Kris is slower then sound thats not how that works

THIS IS NOT ME SAYING IT DISPROVES EVERYTHING
But continously using these "anti-feats" feels disingenuous as it proves nothing about Kris's speed

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Im gonna be honest Using SoJ just proves they are faster then sound you cant say he blitzed them as this is completely in the dark.

They can react to things in the dark, they literally have echolocation in their profiles.

SoJ is believed to be Gerson, who can blitz Susie.

Second, sound moving faster then bullets or kris somehow moving realtive to bullets bullets vary in speed so unless you wanna put bullets at their max speed you cant really use this arguement all this proves is that these bullets are slower then sound and Kris do not move realtive to these bullets as later in your CRT you state that the bullets are moving in slow motion compared to the sound only proving further that Kris is faster

It's still an anti-feat because Kris is supposed to be relative to lightspeed here. They should be frozen in time.
The fact they are not is proof magic attacks are not realistic in the first place.

Getting tagged by a attack is not a anti feat just because this player got tagged by it does not mean others cant dodge it its like saying because I played deltarune and got hit by every sound attack Kris is slower then sound thats not how that works.

A FTL character being tagged by a sound attack in any capacity is an anti-feat.

1. I doubt that even 1% of stabilisation feat in the site are done via non magic source
2. Why it being non-eucledian even matter, eucledian spaces are very small subsets of actual spaces. Flat surface is eucledian, Universe is not eucledian, surface of the planet is not eucledian. Can you be more concrete?

Read my posts. The rules for stabilization don't allow for scaling via existence. Also it being non-euclidean proves that Darkness is not a property that scales proportionally with size. The Titan being made of darkness does not require sustainability.

 

[Qurbonboev]

SoJ is believed to be Gerson

He is not.

A FTL character being tagged by a sound attack in any capacity is an anti-feat.

No. If you can't see attack, you would get hit by it no matter the speed. Darkness makes your perception weaker, so your effective speed drops

They can react to things in the dark, they literally have echolocation in their profiles.

How echolocation can help against faster than sound attacks(aka SoJ swing).

Also it being non-euclidean proves that Darkness is not a property that scales proportionally with size

No? Surface of the planet is non eucledian space, and it still scales proportionally to size of the planet

 

[ScoutManeater]

They can react to things in the dark, they literally have echolocation in their profiles.

SoJ is believed to be Gerson, who can blitz Susie.

If SoJ is believed to be Gerson who can blitz Susie why did Susie perceive and dodge the attack if we look in the cutscene (I was making a edit but got lost on the way) plus the echolocation thing

A FTL character being tagged by a sound attack in any capacity is an anti-feat.

Gonna be out of order due to a mistake but I think you missed my point the only reason why Kris got tagged is because the player themself did not move if the player just moved Kris would have dodged

It's still an anti-feat because Kris is supposed to be relative to lightspeed here. They should be frozen in time.
The fact they are not is proof magic attacks are not realistic in the first place.

It still does not erase the fact that Kris can easily dodge both sound and Laser attacks where did we lose this fact? If Kris was actually unable to dodge no matter what the player did I would believe this more

 

[ScoutManeater]

I should add that not only Susie is able to dodge all of SoJ's attacks proving within battle but this initial strike within impaired vision complete blackness and echolocation being unreliable when the object was close enough for Susie to actually tell something was there coming at her Susie dodged out of the way and only startled by the sudden attack

Susie shows no signs of panic to indicate that Susie was close to getting hit just looking standing there and looking up that was it. So you cant prove blitzing and infact it shows the opposite

In fact further proof Susie takes no damage. Proving Susie dodged it

 

[Qurbonboev]

The player is under the same perception as the game characters and the actual real player. You're saying "the game can't have perception manipulation because it shouldn't manipulate our real life perception", which, it doesn't, we're just looking at a screen. Not a defeater.

Misinterpreted my argument again award. Actual inverse Player of UTDR exists outside of cosmology, and has senses independent of game characters. This accentuated several times. So them being under perception manipulation of DWs, while not being inside of it is important.

Because magic is fantasy, KE is not.

Why would KE be realistic in fantasy world?

Not if the enemy is 0.0000000000000000000000000001% of their speed. They have ears, smell, touch.

Enemy doesn't make sound when swinging, doesn't have smell. And when he touches you, you are already hit.

OP literally always used the illusion and fake approach to indicate how fanciful the world is, not to suggest they're literally 11-C.

1. And using illusion and perception argument makes sense only if you are downgrading everything to 11-c.
2. You are arguing against assuming that DW ice, fire, electricity is same as real one, but for usage of KE. it doesn't make sense at all

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He is not.

Yes he is. Until the literal end of the fight, Ralsei has to tell her this wasn't the old man and she's literally confused by this revelation.

No. If you can't see attack, you would get hit by it no matter the speed. Darkness makes your perception weaker, so your effective speed drops

He should be frozen in time compared to Susie, Susie moves slower than the swing. And reacts to it before it connects. Darkness is not a factor. She literally perceives his jump in real time.

You guys are genuinely desperate to the point of denying what's literally on screen.

How echolocation can help against faster than sound attacks(aka SoJ swing).

Because it literally did. Susie can SEE his shape because of it.

No? Surface of the planet is non eucledian space, and it still scales proportionally to size of the planet

I feel like you're being difficult for no reason.

The OP makes it clear that "non-euclidean because volumetric inconsistency" is not the same as "non-euclidean because its describing a lesser dimensional size" are not the same thing. You're missing the point.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Actual inverse Player of UTDR exists outside of cosmology

Doesn't matter, the player's perception can still see what the characters can see. It's looking at the game from the outside, like us. Ralsei literally looks at the screen when talking about the player entity.

And using illusion and perception argument makes sense only if you are downgrading everything to 11-c.

No it doesn't. That's just false. You're just making a false claim, what else do you want me to say?

Enemy doesn't make sound when swinging, doesn't have smell. And when he touches you, you are already hit.

No, you're not. If a fist is moving at you at 0.00000000001 m/s and it touches your skin, you can remove your arm before any energy is transferred to you.

 

[ScoutManeater]

He should be frozen in time compared to Susie, Susie moves slower than the swing. And reacts to it before it connects. Darkness is not a factor. She literally perceives his jump in real time.

You should look at all of my arguements above and now including her original intention was to check up on who she thought was the "old man" not expecting a attack suddenly a flying object in darkness and suddenly object coming straight at her able to dodge pretty easily and startled by the suddeness of a actual attack because she would never expect the old man to actually hit her all of a sudden and the fact its in the darkness I do agree she saw it I disagree with the fact using it as a antifeat as its in complete darknes leaving little time to actually react anf the context was legit wondering if the old man was OK as he was not answering at all and suddenly a attack

 

[ScoutManeater]

Again adding on just because she saw the thing in the sky does not mean she knows what it is either especially when you are in darkness and you dont expect the old man infront of you to suddenly come out and try to hurt you

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oh yeah, how could I forget

SOUND OF JUSTICE CAN LITERALLY DODGE KRIS' ATTACKS WITH EASE

-snip

I'm not talking about this anymore, SOJ is a valid anti-feat, I'm done with this.

 

[ScoutManeater]

Oh yeah, how could I forget

SOUND OF JUSTICE CAN LITERALLY DODGE KRIS' ATTACKS WITH EASE


I'm not talking about this anymore, SOJ is a valid anti-feat, I'm done with this.

Again proves nothing that just means SoJ is faster then what he showed again both Susie. Kris, and SoJ can dodge eachothers attacks...?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Because it literally did. Susie can SEE his shape because of it.

If it allows you to see, it's not echolocation. It's safe to assume that room is just bright enough to allow for seeing close objects.

It's looking at the game from the outside, like us. Ralsei literally looks at the screen when talking about the player entity.

Yes, it's looking from outside. Why Player still views DW, if it's senses isn't inside perception manipulation area of DW?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Again proves nothing that just means SoJ is faster then what he showed again both Susie. Kris, and SoJ can dodge eachothers attacks...?

Literal evidence that SOJ which is a sound timer is relative to Kris
"proves nothing"

I'm done with you.

If it allows you to see, it's not echolocation. It's safe to assume that room is just bright enough to allow for seeing close objects.

Yes, it's looking from outside. Why Player still views DW, if it's senses isn't inside perception manipulation area of DW?

You're not assuming anything. Susie could dodge it, Susie could "see it", she moved slower. SOJ is relative to Kris. This is a valid anti-feat. Whether or not it's enough to remove the ratings is up to debate. We are not talking about this anymore. Cease.

Player views the DW because that's what the game depicts, literally the same reason we see it as well. DW uses negative photons, it doesn't mess with the individual senses of the mind.

 

[Qurbonboev]

DW uses negative photons, it doesn't mess with the individual senses of the mind.

Then it's not perception manipulation (messing with someone perception), but instead reality warping(messes with reality).
Geniunely, exactly about what we are arguing here?!?

 

[ScoutManeater]

I'm done with you.

You are saying you are done with me when a attack thats in the complete darkness was still able to be dodged it wasnt like susie was slower you can see susie moving to get a better look at the attack if susie knew it was a attack the whole time why dont we see susie try to move out of the way any sooner until the last second? We can visibly see susie moving just to look just basic understanding can tell you that susie didnt know it was a attack until susie dodged it POINT BLANK

 

[StrymULTRA]

Charmander, for the love of god, do not expect people to read a post that is 4225 words long with tons of bolds, italics and/or underlined words immediately, no offense.

Not saying I won't try to reply once I'm off work but you really can make an effort to make things less, yk.

 

[AyOgUyS]

I will give another reminder to everyone to remain respectful. I still agree with everything in the OP, especially the removal of FTL scaling, a singular "valid" feat does not override dozens of instances of DR characters being portrayed as astronomically slower than light.