Deltarune: Lightner Physiology, scaling, Duraneg and more

[Qurbonboev]

In continuation of previous attempts to properly index P&A of Deltarune characters, with the help of @LittleGuy99, @StrymULTRA, @Eden_Warlock99 and many others, I present this CRT.

Main object is brand new Lightner Physiology page:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Qurbonboev/Lightner_physiology

Besides this page CRT would also overhaul Lightners scaling in the Light World, add Resistances to all Darkners, add to some characters Durability Negation(on top of one that they already poccess through Soul Damage) and some new P&A. They all are contained within this Sandbox

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Qurbonboev/Sandbox

Link to the version of sandbox, that was used for CRT

 

[God_of_perversion]

Looks god,i think lightners should have more abilities but i don't think adding abilities is the reason this crt was made.
Btw the abilities i'm talking about are
Subjective reality with the dark fountain creation
And resistence to space manipulation because they can tank Tenna's space cleaving attack

 

[God_of_perversion]

Also i don't think absolute zero is the best way to describe Noelle's and Elnina's abilities since absolute zero is always the same number (-273.15°) so indexing their abilities as absolute zero is breaks the point of absolute zero,i think it should probably be indexed as physics manipulation or something else since it literally is colder than the physically possible lowest temperature

 

[God_of_perversion]

Thinking about cold is just the lack of Energy,absolute zero is just the point where energy reachs 0,so a ability that can go colder than absolute zero would create "negative energy" but i don't know what that ability would be

 

[Poketmonsrs]

would create "negative energy"

Almost like photon readings are negative

 

[SnakesCity]

Looks god,i think lightners should have more abilities but i don't think adding abilities is the reason this crt was made.
Btw the abilities i'm talking about are
Subjective reality with the dark fountain creation

Dark fountain is already covered by reality warping and creation, subjective reality is more for stuff like what Frisk does at the end of true pacifist where they create healing items from their dreams.

Im also kind of iffy on extrasensory perception for lightners for the reason given because that's more-so just knowing when to hold back rather than knowing what the SOUL's health is, also not sure how to feel about the duraneg stuff so i'll leave that up to staff.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also i don't think absolute zero is the best way to describe Noelle's and Elnina's abilities

It was deemed in previous CTTs that best way to classify Fun Gang ability to to resist -999 as absolute Zero resistance. Obviously in this case Elnina, who caused this situation should get absolute Zero itself

And resistence to space manipulation because they can tank Tenna's space cleaving attack

Knight has similar attacks. If staff agrees to this, I would add resistance to Fun Gang (and maybe all Lightners)

Looks god,i think lightners should have more abilities but i don't think adding abilities is the reason this crt was made.

Wdym? It is main reason this CRT was made

 

[Poketmonsrs]

This seems good so I agree, the space manip seems fine

 

[God_of_perversion]

Knight has similar attacks. If staff agrees to this, I would add resistance to Fun Gang (and maybe all Lightners)

Don't forget Frisk for having the same soul Kris has

 

[God_of_perversion]

Dark fountain is already covered by reality warping and creation, subjective reality is more for stuff like what Frisk does at the end of true pacifist where they create healing items from their dreams.

Im also kind of iffy on extrasensory perception for lightners for the reason given because that's more-so just knowing when to hold back rather than knowing what the SOUL's health is, also not sure how to feel about the duraneg stuff so i'll leave that up to staff.

Yeah but the whole thing with dark fountains being made by the will power/determination of lightners plus the fact ralsei compares dark worlds to dreams in one of his dialogues make subjective reality probably more acurate than reality warping

 

[SnakesCity]

Yeah but the whole thing with dark fountains being made by the will power/determination of lightners plus the fact ralsei compares dark worlds to dreams in one of his dialogues make subjective reality probably more acurate than reality warping

Ralsei actually compares them to fantasy, subjective reality is more about bringing dreams into reality but that's not really what Dark Worlds are, Ralsei describes them as "an alternate view of reality through the lens of shadow", it's vague obviously but it more clearly fits with reality warping and creation. If lightners were able to take items from dark worlds (as they are not just their light world counterparts) then i would agree with subjective reality.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Ralsei actually compares them to fantasy, subjective reality is more about bringing dreams into reality but that's not really what Dark Worlds are, Ralsei describes them as "an alternate view of reality through the lens of shadow", it's vague obviously but it more clearly fits with reality warping and creation. If lightners were able to take items from dark worlds (as they are not just their light world counterparts) then i would agree with subjective reality.

I mean there are black shards but we don't even know what they are

 

[Qurbonboev]

I mean there are black shards but we don't even know what they are

AFAIK only Black Shards and Shadow Crystals don't turn into just ball of junk in LW. And both of them are very special items. So no subjective reality for Darkners.
And I am still unsure on what to call Tenna and Knight ability to split screen and battlebox. It is some sort of spatial manipulation, but calling it space cleaving attack(like Sukuna WCS) seems to be overreach

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Don't forget Frisk for having the same soul Kris has

(I'm all for frisk agenda but this is NOT it)
Also, I agree to the thread, lighteners=transonic and wall+all their ablities

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree!

 

[God_of_perversion]

AFAIK only Black Shards and Shadow Crystals don't turn into just ball of junk in LW. And both of them are very special items. So no subjective reality for Darkners.
And I am still unsure on what to call Tenna and Knight ability to split screen and battlebox. It is some sort of spatial manipulation, but calling it space cleaving attack(like Sukuna WCS) seems to be overreach

I mean what other option would it be,only space cleaving would achieve those effects

 

[Imaginym]

I am now following this thread. That said, I am sorry to say that I am quite tired, so am not up to evaluating it at this time.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Bump

 

[StarShooter80]

Agree

 

[Edutyn]

Bump

 

[God_of_perversion]

(I'm all for frisk agenda but this is NOT it)
Also, I agree to the thread, lighteners=transonic and wall+all their ablities

And give Sans layered space manip for affecting frisk with his space abilitoes

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

And give Sans layered space manip for affecting frisk with his space abilitoes

 

[SomebodyData]

Seems pretty straightforward, I agree with the revisions

 

[Qurbonboev]

Seems pretty straightforward, I agree with the revisions

And resistence to space manipulation because they can tank Tenna's space cleaving attack

Knight has similar attacks. If staff agrees to this, I would add resistance to Fun Gang (and maybe all Lightners)

And I am still unsure on what to call Tenna and Knight ability to split screen and battlebox. It is some sort of spatial manipulation, but calling it space cleaving attack(like Sukuna WCS) seems to be overreach

So, what do you think of giving resistance to spatial manipulation to Gang, and maybe all Lightners. For the record, both Tenna and Knight have spatial manipulation currently

 

[SomebodyData]

So, what do you think of giving resistance to spatial manipulation to Gang, and maybe all Lightners. For the record, both Tenna and Knight have spatial manipulation currently

I was going to say agreed with the Gang, and a Possibly for the rest of the Lightners.

But upon rewatching it, I'm not sure it would really warrant any resistance at all. Seems like it's just how that works. :/

 

[Qurbonboev]

I am now following this thread. That said, I am sorry to say that I am quite tired, so am not up to evaluating it at this time.

Do you have time for evaluation now?

 

[Imaginym]

Also i don't think absolute zero is the best way to describe Noelle's and Elnina's abilities since absolute zero is always the same number (-273.15°) so indexing their abilities as absolute zero is breaks the point of absolute zero,i think it should probably be indexed as physics manipulation or something else since it literally is colder than the physically possible lowest temperature

Also i don't think absolute zero is the best way to describe Noelle's and Elnina's abilities since absolute zero is always the same number (-273.15°) so indexing their abilities as absolute zero is breaks the point of absolute zero,i think it should probably be indexed as physics manipulation or something else since it literally is colder than the physically possible lowest temperature

It was deemed in previous CTTs that best way to classify Fun Gang ability to to resist -999 as absolute Zero resistance. Obviously in this case Elnina, who caused this situation should get absolute Zero itself

Absolute Zero

Absolute Zero is the point of cold at which enthalpy and entropy hit their minimum level. It is the ultimate form of freezing and in the theoretical situation that someone is exposed to it, their body will be frozen at the atomic level before collapsing under their own mass since the loss of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

From the page: Please read our Absolute Zero Feats in Fiction page to determine if showings are actually viable enough to be placed on a profile.
From that page:

Absolute Zero is the lowest temperature that is theoretically possible in according to the laws of thermodynamics. At -273.15°C (0K), the vibrational motion of particles would be minimal or stop completely. In the latter scenario, the atoms would lose all binding energy and fall apart under their own weight, allowing this ability to ignore conventional durability.

However, the term is used very frequently in fiction to either exaggerate the degree of cold a character's powers are capable of or to simply make a technique sound more intimidating. As a result, while a realistic description is impossible due to the fact that absolute zero has yet to be achieved in reality (and thus its properties can only be theorized), there are some indications that can help determine whether or not an attack does in fact reach absolute zero."

Statements​

Believable statements are possibly the most easily obtained and valid confirmation of one's ability to reach absolute zero. If the characters powers are explicitly stated to reach absolute zero temperatures or some equivalent (i.e. the aforementioned -273.15°C and 0K) and the character/statement in question comes from a reliable source (as outlined in the Statements page), then it is very possible and likely the ability in question does in fact reach absolute zero. Some other valid statements include:

• Reducing the internal energy of the target to zero.
• Completely stopping all movement and vibrations of the target's particles, effectively freezing them at the atomic level.

Nevertheless, such statements need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis as hyperbole and inconsistency is rampant in fiction.

Visual Confirmation​

While it isn't possible to provide completely accurate visual confirmation of absolute zero, visual representations of the statements above (i.e. the very atoms of the target coming to a complete halt) may be valid. But once again, these need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and it is better to have a statement corroborating it.

Resistance​

Various characters have been shown to be able to resist absolute zero attacks in fiction. However, this can generally only be recognized as a resistance to such attacks as absolute zero would affect all matter equally. Various franchises have produced characters that are able to produce or resist temperatures "below absolute zero". Due to deriding the point of being the absolute coldest possible temperature in existence, such abilities can only be described as an even greater ability to produce or resist cold, as such things would not make sense according to thermodynamics as we know it.

​

• Particularly powerful characters from Saint Seiya, such as Thanatos, have claimed that the air would have to be cooled to a temperature over a hundred times cooler than absolute zero to affect him after easily tanking the Aurora Execution.

@SomebodyData As a staff member (& an Administrator!) who has already responded regarding this thread, do you have any opinion on the matter with these details in mind, if you'll pardon my bringing it up to you, please?

As is, based on the Resistance section, it may mean they qualify for greater resistance than Absolute Zero resistance, if I understand correctly. What do you think?



The other matter is....

And resistence to space manipulation because they can tank Tenna's space cleaving attack

Knight has similar attacks. If staff agrees to this, I would add resistance to Fun Gang (and maybe all Lightners)

This seems good so I agree, the space manip seems fine

AFAIK only Black Shards and Shadow Crystals don't turn into just ball of junk in LW. And both of them are very special items. So no subjective reality for Darkners.
And I am still unsure on what to call Tenna and Knight ability to split screen and battlebox. It is some sort of spatial manipulation, but calling it space cleaving attack(like Sukuna WCS) seems to be overreach

I mean what other option would it be,only space cleaving would achieve those effects

FWIW, checking the footage, we do see that not only is the Battle Box distorted with a horizontal displace, but so is the moving floor in the background, as we can see the dividing lines become misaligned.

However, The Delta Warriors do not look affected, unlike the SOUL & the Battle Box it is in (Which is of a nebulous nature.) & the SOUL seems to have damage transferral, no?
Deltarune gave fancy new outfits to the Lightners for an act against the Shadowmen, yet no horizontal displacement for this move, unliek the background & battle board?

Could it be an abstraction for the sake of gameplay?
Is it hitting only the SOUL &/or Battle Box which transfers the resulting damage?
Budget issues? (It is an Indie game.)

I'd like to know what others think. SomebodyData, you too, if you're willing.


I will be replying to this thread more, as there is more that I wish to go over.

 

[Qurbonboev]

@SomebodyData As a staff member (& an Administrator!) who has already responded regarding this thread, do you have any opinion on the matter with these details in mind, if you'll pardon my bringing it up to you, please?

As is, based on the Resistance section, it may mean they qualify for greater resistance than Absolute Zero resistance, if I understand correctly. What do you think?

Searching for precedent in the wiki, I found that Rukia has enhanced Absolute Zero on her profile. Reason being that she can freeze As Nodt with her bankai, and Nodt can resist effect of her shikai, that can freeze to absolute zero(bankai is more powerful form of Zanpakuto than shikai, so their relationship is somewhat analogous to Iceshock/Snowgrave relationship). Similarly we can grant enhanced Absolute Zero to Noelle via Snowgrave. But I don't think anybody should get enhanced Absolute Zero resistance, since nobody has feats of resisting Snowgrave, and it wouldn't make much sense narratively for any fighter to be able to shrug it off. Snowgrave is depicted as absolute magic attack, you can use only if you equip Thornring(which itself held massive narrative significance even before chapter 4)

The other matter is.

For the sake of not making this CRT too bloated, I think it would be better off to tackle this particular issue later. Resistance to spatial manipulation was proposed after CRT was already published, and I didn't have time to properly engage with arguments and counterarguments

 

[SomebodyData]

~SNIP~

That's a good catch on the absolute zero part- I could have sworn we were more flexible with a few characters having Ice Manipulation below Absolute Zero at one point. Though it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

As for the spatial manipulation, knowing the franchise, it probably is real. I just don't think it is combat applicable in a way that warrants resistance.

 

[Imaginym]

In continuation of previous attempts to properly index P&A of Deltarune characters, with the help of @LittleGuy99, @StrymULTRA, @Eden_Warlock99 and many others, I present this CRT.

Main object is brand new Lightner Physiology page:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Qurbonboev/Lightner_physiology

Lightners are beings from Deltarune (both humans and monsters) that live in the Light world, as opposed to the Darkners that inhabit the Dark Worlds. Lightners of both kinds possess the universal qualities of a SOUL, and the power of determination and the ability to create Dark Fountains.

Examples: Kris, Susie, Berdly, Noelle, Roaring Knight, Undyne

Roaring Knight is dubious. We don't know how it exists in the Light World, but to its credit, Susie at least suspects it to be a Lightner.
Heck, the evidence of it existing in the Light World is Susie seeing it exit & flee in the Light World during the night. Chasing a figure in the night that she couldn't identify & that we didn't see.

If we were to list TRK as one of the examples of Lightners, I would say to list it as Possibly or Likely, if at all.

Lightner abilities in Light World​

• Superhuman Physical Characteristics
• Creation, Reality Warping & Darkness Manipulation (Lightner are able to open Dark Fountains in the Light World by coursing their will into a sharp object and stabbing the ground, turning the affected area into a Dark World, an alternate view of reality through the lens of shadow)
  • Limited Summoning (Like The Roaring Knight, all Lightners can summon a Titan by creating a Dark Fountain within a Dark World)
  • Limited Portal Creation (By making a Dark Fountain, a portal to a Dark World is created)
  • Limited Smoke Manipulation (The darkness that consumes the rooms is described as smoke)
• Supernatural Willpower(Lightner Soul is the source of their will and determination, that allows them to create and shape Dark Worlds)

I approve.

Lightner abilities in Dark World​

All previous abilities, plus:

• Enhanced Superhuman Physical Characteristics
• SOUL Manipulation (Susie and Berdly attacks can damage the SOUL)
• Pseudo-Energy Manipulation (Can store TP [Tension Points] to fuel their abilities)

I approve.

• Non-Physical Interaction (Susie and Kris Can deal damage to a Mizzle/Miss Mizzle which is a being made of water and a Titan Spawn which is a being made of pure darkness which can act similar to smoke of some kind. They can damage Guei who is stated to be a spirit and although it is also mentioned that it is not a "real" ghost per se, this is probably just because it is clarifying that it is not a dead person)

No mention of Guei's wax-related nature, like it drinking wax in the cafe, & likely being based on the candles found in the church?
"A waxy spirit that generates ghastly flames".
I approved it, though.

• Limited Regeneration (Mid-Low; When Kris, Susie and Noelle HP is equal to or less than zero, they faint entering the Down state and will begin to heal little by little until they get back up. When the regeneration of the Kris and Susie was negated when they were Swooned with -999 HP, and after a short period of time they can get back up again with 1 HP)

• Can ignore distance (Susie, Kris and Noelle was shown to be able to directly hit opponents with melee attacks despite being physically away from them, examples of this would be hitting Berdly or slashing Spamton NEO's wires despite being on a moving coaster, or hitting Rouxls Kaard while separated by an acid lake)
• Accelerated Development (Leveling; Physical Stats - Kris, Susie and Noelle stats grow stronger after every enemy they defeat with violence[1])

I approve.

• Acrobatics (Hypermobility; Can perform superhuman acrobatics)

From the Acrobatics page:

• Hypermobility: The user is capable of performing extremely agile movements with their body that could cause pain or even notable injuries to the vast majority of other people under the same conditions, including surviving falls by simply maneuvering.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/f/f9/Delta_Warriors%27_Acrobatics.gif/revision/latest?cb=20230429175315

To their credit, curling up into a ball & jumping a calculated 14.47 meters is superhuman, but this is like, one, maybe two feats of curling up into a ball & leaping far.
I think Hypermobility would warrant more feats as evidence, & surely the characters have that?

• Healing (With food items)

I approve, however:

Healing

Healing is the ability to remove the injuries of oneself and others. Users may also use it to relieve or eliminate the symptoms and effects of diseases or other medical conditions, which leads to recovery and restoration of health. This ability can be used both on others and for personal use (as...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"It should be noted that the degree of the ability, whenever possible, should be specified with the same system used for Regeneration, so, for example, someone that has displayed the capability to heal others up to a "Mid" level would be specified with the respective prefix."

• Extrasensory Perception (Susie and Knight knocks us out instead of killing, thus should be aware of amount of SOUL health)

Strange terminology. Not "Susie and The Roaring Knight"? & saying "us" instead of "Kris"? I feel like the ability has been discussed previously.

There may also be this concerns such as this about the matter to consider:

Im also kind of iffy on extrasensory perception for lightners for the reason given because that's more-so just knowing when to hold back rather than knowing what the SOUL's health is, also not sure how to feel about the duraneg stuff so i'll leave that up to staff.

• Enhanced Senses(Hearing: Kris and Susie can navigate through maze in total darkness using echolocation)

I approve. (Though I think it needs a space?)

Resistances to:

• SOUL Manipulation (Can take blows from Darkners, which harm one's SOUL, and manage to reduce damage to it by strengthening said SOUL with items)

Saying "one's SOUL" might be concerning. Do we consider it to be Kris's own SOUL rather than one originally from another being?

• Ice Manipulation (Most of Lightners lack the explicit weakness to ice spells of Berdly, who cannot be frozen by IceShocks, which froze Darkners and solid objects across Cyber City)

I approve.

• Acid Manipulation (Kris and Susie can endure being deeply submerged into acid, which was corrosive enough to dissolve a golden statue. Can take GIGA Queen's Acid Spray)

Why are we assuming the first feat happened to Kris & Susie rather than the SOUL which transferred damage to them?

The second feat is also suspect; The Delta Warriors needed The Thrash Machine to face Giga Queen, & not only that, GQ's supposed Acid Beam.... Well, while the giant glass does appear to contain acid, it's almost certainly a different glass from her usual one, as GQ is a giant mech that Queen herself operates, so it's likely not her normal acid glass.
Not only that, when has her normal acid glass shot a laser?
Not only that, when you watch the cutscene, the laser first erupts upwards, then sweeps in a counterclockwise motion that draws a green line on the platform.... Not how acid moves. Said beam which does not hit The Delta Warriors nor Noelle. A laser beam with the properties of acid?
THEN, it explodes, & it is after the explosions that they react, falling to their knees, & the trail the beam left turns white.

So besides the appearance, why do we believe this is actual acid? It does not behave like it, & based on the cutscene, it is the explosions that down them, as the laser does not directly hit them, instead making a path on the platform very near to them.

• Electricity Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Kris and Susie can withstand getting electrocutedwithout major issues)

Sentence seems to need a space between "electrocuted" & "without".
Another case of assuming the properties of the attacks that hit the SOUL are applied to those it transfers damage to.
The in-battle flavour text gives a bit more credit, but that could be general or unrelated, because of being in a computers-&-electronics-based world.

• Fire Manipulation (In the cooking mini game, fire does nothing to Kris and on board 3 it does very low damage. Can endure fire balls from Guei)

"Does nothing" seems a bit generous, as it causes them to jump in recoil & fall over. I'd assume that's a pain reaction. Plus, there's no HP in the cooking Mini-Game, rather, a popularity meter.

• Absolute Zero, Ice Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Kris and Susie can withstand being at 999F/-999F in the battle with Lanino and Elnina)

This matter is, AFAIK, still being discussed as recent posts indicate, but regarding this in the blog itself, Ice Manipulation is listed above it, but also here.
It may be possible &/or worthwhile to consider restructuring the ability listing to account for this so that two kinds of Ice Manipulation aren't redundantly listing, but are still both accounted for.
Any opinions on how to do so?

• Limited Mind Manipulation & Body Puppetry (Berdly can forcefully pull off Queen's control wire, after her chair getting exhausted in the fight(thought control wire still works during this moment, as evidenced by it being blown up))

I approve.

Besides this page CRT would also overhaul Lightners scaling in the Light World, add Resistances to all Darkners, add to some characters Durability Negation(on top of one that they already poccess through Soul Damage) and some new P&A. They all are contained within this Sandbox

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Qurbonboev/Sandbox

I'll go through & address the contents in this later, if that preference to mine is okay. There's already a lot to go over with my response here.

That's a good catch on the absolute zero part- I could have sworn we were more flexible with a few characters having Ice Manipulation below Absolute Zero at one point. Though it doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Thank you very much for your response. So do you think we should give them greater AZ Resistance as the page suggests?

As for the spatial manipulation, knowing the franchise, it probably is real. I just don't think it is combat applicable in a way that warrants resistance.

Despite it being part of an attack & affecting the scenery during the battle?

(Also, I think it displaces the lightning bolt bullets in the Bullet Box that Tenna makes, but everything in that box is so displaced by that.)

Also, do you have any opinion on any of the other matters, I've brought up? (Also, sorry if you or anyone else minds my long responses.)

Searching for precedent in the wiki, I found that Rukia has enhanced Absolute Zero on her profile. Reason being that she can freeze As Nodt with her bankai, and Nodt can resist effect of her shikai, that can freeze to absolute zero(bankai is more powerful form of Zanpakuto than shikai, so their relationship is somewhat analogous to Iceshock/Snowgrave relationship). Similarly we can grant enhanced Absolute Zero to Noelle via Snowgrave.

Basis? What affirms Iceshock &/or Snowgrave are as cold or colder than Elnina's cold temperatures? They're Ice Manipulation for sure, but....
In theory, Noelle might have some scaling based on bosses (Or being a bit speculatory, her possibly having been meant to be a part of The Delta Warriors via the prophecy.), &/or being a playable character.

But I don't think anybody should get enhanced Absolute Zero resistance, since nobody has feats of resisting Snowgrave, and it wouldn't make much sense narratively for any fighter to be able to shrug it off.

Basis? What affirms Iceshock &/or Snowgrave are as cold or colder than Elnina's cold temperatures?

Snowgrave is depicted as absolute magic attack, you can use only if you equip Thornring(which itself held massive narrative significance even before chapter 4)

I suppose it is definitely magical, since there's some indication the ThornRing is extra magical, given the narrative significance (Spamton holds it in high regard, IIRC.), as well as it seemingly being able to have significant effects in the Light World, maybe?

For the sake of not making this CRT too bloated, I think it would be better off to tackle this particular issue later. Resistance to spatial manipulation was proposed after CRT was already published, and I didn't have time to properly engage with arguments and counterarguments

Noted.
Does what SomebodyData had to say about it change this proposition on this matter?


Sorry about the verbosity. Hope this helps! & good luck!

 

[Qurbonboev]

Roaring Knight is dubious. We don't know how it exists in the Light World, but to its credit, Susie at least suspects it to be a Lightner.
Heck, the evidence of it existing in the Light World is Susie seeing it exit & flee in the Light World during the night. Chasing a figure in the night that she couldn't identify & that we didn't see.

Disagree. Knight can create Fountains & Titans, something only Lightners can do. To create them in different places Knight would have need to travel in LW. There were nobody else to carry over Undyne to Shelter. Game actively hints that Knight is hiding in church.

"It should be noted that the degree of the ability, whenever possible, should be specified with the same system used for Regeneration, so, for example, someone that has displayed the capability to heal others up to a "Mid" level would be specified with the respective prefix."

There is two options:
1) Safer option: Mid-Low(same as their natural regeneration), since they are definitely able to heal such wounds.
2) Low-High: Susie able to heal Ralsei when they are just pile of fluf and return them back to normal. But it's unclear how much this is just quirk of Ralsei and how much healing ability of Susie. Susie thinks that she could potentially be able to heal Berdly arm(but she isn't sure).

Saying "one's SOUL" might be concerning. Do we consider it to be Kris's own SOUL rather than one originally from another being?

Game uses "SOUL" to refer to all souls, not only ours Besides, Susie and Berdly can take shots from opponents (who all have soul damage) when fighting alone.

Basis? What affirms Iceshock &/or Snowgrave are as cold or colder than Elnina's cold temperatures?

Noelle ice magic is narratively very important, it's the reason for why there is weird route in the first place. Weird route is centered on getting stronger no matter the cost, in order to challenge Fate. It would be very strange if chapter 3 mini boss had more potent ice magic than Noelle. We killed fair amount of Darkners, put Berdly in coma, and mentally tortured Noelle just to have weaker magic than Weather Channel Darkner.

Does nothing" seems a bit generous, as it causes them to jump in recoil & fall over. I'd assume that's a pain reaction. Plus, there's no HP in the cooking Mini-Game, rather, a popularity meter.

Does nothing as in "don't burn us". They do inflict some damage in third board. And main justification for ability is not being out in flame by Guei fireballs.

Why are we assuming the first feat happened to Kris & Susie rather than the SOUL which transferred damage to them?

Because as currently things stands, we don't consider battlebox as fully diegetical(same as in UT). Aka, if we see that electric attack hit SOUL and Susie gets damaged, we assume that Susie did get hit by electric attack, not that SOUL actually transferred damage to it.

To their credit, curling up into a ball & jumping a calculated 14.47 meters is superhuman, but this is like, one, maybe two feats of curling up into a ball & leaping far.

Would try to search for more feats later. What about this one

 

[Qurbonboev]

Does what SomebodyData had to say about it change this proposition on this matter?

As for the spatial manipulation, knowing the franchise, it probably is real. I just don't think it is combat applicable in a way that warrants resistance.

Their position is practically status quo: Tenna and Knight retain spatial manipulation, but nobody gets resistance to it.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Rukia has enhanced Absolute Zero on her profile. Reason being that she can freeze As Nodt with her bankai, and Nodt can resist effect of her shikai, that can freeze to absolute zero(bankai is more powerful form of Zanpakuto than shikai, so their relationship is somewhat analogous to Iceshock/Snowgrave relationship). Similarly we can grant enhanced Absolute Zero to Noelle via Snowgrave. But I don't think anybody should get enhanced Absolute Zero resistance, since nobody has feats of resisting Snowgrave, and it wouldn't make much sense narratively for any fighter to be able to shrug it off. Snowgrave is depicted as absolute magic attack, you can use only if you equip Thornring(which itself held massive narrative significance even before chapter 4)

Thinking about it i thinkk every darkner should have resistence to 999° and -999° degrees
Base spantom can resist those with easy and base Spantom is just a normal dsrkner,not only that but Elnina and Lanina can go out of control by just being complimented so i think every darkner should have resistence to it

 

[Imaginym]

Disagree. Knight can create Fountains & Titans, something only Lightners can do. To create them in different places Knight would have need to travel in LW. There were nobody else to carry over Undyne to Shelter. Game actively hints that Knight is hiding in church.

Fair, I suppose.

There is two options:
1) Safer option: Mid-Low(same as their natural regeneration), since they are definitely able to heal such wounds.
2) Low-High: Susie able to heal Ralsei when they are just pile of fluf and return them back to normal. But it's unclear how much this is just quirk of Ralsei and how much healing ability of Susie. Susie thinks that she could potentially be able to heal Berdly arm(but she isn't sure).

I do recall their healing healing a cut Susie got, & a cut Kris got. Both from falls, strangely.
Incidentally, when does Susie indicate she could potentially be able to heal Berdly's arm?
Ralsei may indeed be just a quirk.

What do other supporters, Knowledgeable Members & Staff think about these options?

Game uses "SOUL" to refer to all souls, not only ours Besides, Susie and Berdly can take shots from opponents (who all have soul damage) when fighting alone.

I suppose so.

Noelle ice magic is narratively very important, it's the reason for why there is weird route in the first place. Weird route is centered on getting stronger no matter the cost, in order to challenge Fate. It would be very strange if chapter 3 mini boss had more potent ice magic than Noelle. We killed fair amount of Darkners, put Berdly in coma, and mentally tortured Noelle just to have weaker magic than Weather Channel Darkner.

I suppose this is reasonable.

What do other supporters, Knowledgeable Members & Staff think about this? I'm okay with going with it if others are.

Does nothing as in "don't burn us". They do inflict some damage in third board. And main justification for ability is not being out in flame by Guei fireballs.

They still do experience pain & damage, but I suppose that can be noted in the justification. Though, Guei's fireballs hit the SOUL, not The Delta Warriors, so how are we certain that the properties of the attack are transferred with the damage?

Because as currently things stands, we don't consider battlebox as fully diegetical(same as in UT). Aka, if we see that electric attack hit SOUL and Susie gets damaged, we assume that Susie did get hit by electric attack, not that SOUL actually transferred damage to it.

So some things involving the SOUL & Battle Box are diegetic & some aren't, is the current stance?

Would try to search for more feats later. What about this one

Susie jumps very high, lands on water, grabs a thing, then jumps back, going very high again.
Seems like some acrobatics, but more examples may be valuable.

Their position is practically status quo: Tenna and Knight retain spatial manipulation, but nobody gets resistance to it.

Not sure what you mean about it being "status quo", but the other part makes sense.

Considering SomebodyData saying earlier this thread, on the matter:
"As for the spatial manipulation, knowing the franchise, it probably is real. I just don't think it is combat applicable in a way that warrants resistance."

& if my repeating of my own perspective can be pardoned, the visually apparent effect it has on the (apparently incompletely diegetic Battle Box?) & background, I'm on the fence about it's lacking in combat applicability, since it does displace some bullets, affecting dodging, which would go against the notion of it "not being combat applicable".
The idea that nobody gets resistance to it makes some sense, though.


Notably, when Tenna (5:33) uses that move, he says:
Haha, no way we can use that take! CUT!! CUT, I said! CUT! ... SMASH CUT!

Notably, the SOUL's image can be seen distorted when it moves across the boundary of the cut/distortion, so it may or may not resist it depending on interpretation of that.
But since this wasn't in the stuff proposed in the OP, perhaps we should set aside this Space Manipulation stuff for another CRT, then?

Thinking about it i thinkk every darkner should have resistence to 999° and -999° degrees
Base spantom can resist those with easy and base Spantom is just a normal dsrkner,not only that but Elnina and Lanina can go out of control by just being complimented so i think every darkner should have resistence to it

When did Base Spamton resist those? Especially since Lanino & Elnina do those extreme temperatures after one half of the pair leaves & the other is a bit emotionally out of control trying to adapt to the separation between them & their usually ever-present other half.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I do recall their healing healing a cut Susie got, & a cut Kris got. Both from falls, strangely.
Incidentally, when does Susie indicate she could potentially be able to heal Berdly's arm?
Ralsei may indeed be just a quirk.

Susie prolly does know limits of her healing magic better than us. But I am fully satisfied at leaving their healing at Mid-Low for now.

Though, Guei's fireballs hit the SOUL, not The Delta Warriors, so how are we certain that the properties of the attack are transferred with the damage?

So some things involving the SOUL & Battle Box are diegetic & some aren't, is the current stance?

If you aren't satisfied with my current arguments, there is another line of argumentation:
We know for the fact that properties of the attack are transferred together with damage, thanks to the equipment that reduces damage from elemental attacks (most notable one is Shadow Mantle, that reduces damage from Dark/Star attacks). When Knight hits SOUL with attack, amount of damage that gang member receives changes depending on whether they have shadow mantle or not. So, properties of attack(in that case it being Dark) are transferred together with damage. So for example, when Queen hits SOUL with Acid, damage transferred to gang member retains it's properties(which includes being able to melt golden statue). If they didn't have resistance to it, they would have been melted too. Same as with other attacks, like electric.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Susie jumps very high, lands on water, grabs a thing, then jumps back, going very high again.
Seems like some acrobatics, but more examples may be valuable.

If this isn't enough for you, I can just delete hypermobility and just leave acrobatics itself (since they still perform superhuman acrobatics).

Not sure what you mean about it being "status quo", but the other part makes sense.

Status quo is how things were before CRT, so Tenna and Knight still have spatial manipulation, but nobody have resistance. If I am being honest, I have no desire to argue for or against it, since it was addition by commenter here, and I haven't thought about this matter deeply myself. If I think I have good arguments for them having resistance to it, I will add them in different CRT.

When did Base Spamton resist those?

He can be present as equipment during this fight(either as glasses or scarves)

What other questions do you have?

 

[Imaginym]

Susie prolly does know limits of her healing magic better than us.

If you'll forgive my asking, should I assume based on your not mentioning it that you aren't certain/remembering at this time of when Susie said she'd be able to heal Berdly's arm?
Susie, especially during Chapter 2, was still learning, just being taught by Ralsei, no? & Ralsei has been known to leave out information, & Susie isn't the most academic sort.

But I am fully satisfied at leaving their healing at Mid-Low for now.

Without more information about the statement regarding Berdly's arms, & lacking knowledge on how Ralsei's... reconstitution(?) of his form, this seems reasonable.

If you aren't satisfied with my current arguments, there is another line of argumentation:
We know for the fact that properties of the attack are transferred together with damage, thanks to the equipment that reduces damage from elemental attacks (most notable one is Shadow Mantle, that reduces damage from Dark/Star attacks). When Knight hits SOUL with attack, amount of damage that gang member receives changes depending on whether they have shadow mantle or not. So, properties of attack(in that case it being Dark) are transferred together with damage. So for example, when Queen hits SOUL with Acid, damage transferred to gang member retains it's properties(which includes being able to melt golden statue). If they didn't have resistance to it, they would have been melted too. Same as with other attacks, like electric.

This also seems like a reasonable basis.

If this isn't enough for you, I can just delete hypermobility and just leave acrobatics itself (since they still perform superhuman acrobatics).

Well, the page lists Hypermobility as:

• Hypermobility: The user is capable of performing extremely agile movements with their body that could cause pain or even notable injuries to the vast majority of other people under the same conditions, including surviving falls by simply maneuvering.

With the 2 examples, we have seen that Lightners (Susie, at least.) can do "extremely agile movements". (Tumbling jump in an arc & high jump followed by off-screen horizontal movement with body straight.), so we technically have some sort of justification, even if for Susie at least. IDK about all Lightners, but 2 feats might be enough.

I'd be confident there's a basis for it. Surely there are more feats of acrobatics across the 4 chapters? Failing that, I'd like to know what other Knowledgeable Members &/or Staff think about Hypermobility Eligibility, please.

Status quo is how things were before CRT, so Tenna and Knight still have spatial manipulation, but nobody have resistance. If I am being honest, I have no desire to argue for or against it, since it was addition by commenter here, and I haven't thought about this matter deeply myself. If I think I have good arguments for them having resistance to it, I will add them in different CRT.

Understood. I'm fine with Space Manipulation being left out of the proposals of this CRT, since it wasn't in the OP, so it can be reserved for later.

He can be present as equipment during this fight(either as glasses or scarves)

Ah yes. I guess Spamton (Equipment) is base equipment, no?
What do you & others think about God of Perversion's proposition that prompted this question, then? I'm okay with leaving it out of the propositions of this CRT, since, like Space Manipulation, it wasn't in this CRT.

What other questions do you have?

Well, beyond any unconcluded lines of conversation we're having now, what I'd say remains (for me at least.) to cover is in the Sandbox in the OP.

So I guess may as well go over that.

• Fire Manipulation & Heat Manipulation (Ralsei and the Darkners present in the fight as items can withstand Guei fireballs, which are hot enough to damage Kris[Statistics Value 1])

Base Spamton? Ain't he superior to other Darkners? Especially considering he's a miniboss, & he comes after Jevil, another superboss, who, like Jevil, turns into equipment?
& assuming all Darkners are like Ralsei, who is special from at the very least, being a fountain of pure darkness & being a player character, if not in other ways?

There may be a case for Darkners resisting the temperatures, though, if we have certain evidence there's an audience present during the Elnina & Lanino battle.


Jevil:

• Durability Negation (Final Chaos attacks disregards enemy defense, and inflict damage proportional to target remaining HP. Can't kill the target fully)

Kill seems like a strange word here. While all party members having 0 HP is a Game Over. But for a Game Over, the SOUL breaks in half & shatters, & based on their regeneration, & Kris & Susie not being dead at 0 HP.... Heck, even with The Knight, it says Susie was hurt & beaten, which could give the indication being DOWN is usually less bad than being SWOONed.

So that clarification may need to be reworded.

Shadow Mantle Holder:

• Durability Negation (All attacks ignore defense, it's damage is proportional to target HP. Wearing or not wearing defensive equipment doesn't change amount of received damage, only amount of HP)

Context: Same damage received in normal playthrough and in playthrough without armor. But having higher HP (via choosing to end fights with violence) increases damage taken.

Cites a damage formula, but demonstrated through gameplay, so might be okay, I guess?
What do others think?

Gerson:

• Durability Negation (Dualbuster inflicts practically same damage to Titan with and without shield. His own Busters should have similar effect)

Susie:

• Durability Negation (Dualbuster inflicts practically same damage to Titan with and without shield. Red Buster should be comparable)

Ordinarily, Rude Buster & Red Buster's damage take the target's defense into account. If we're going to cite damage formulas & damage numbers seen in gameplay, it may be worthwhile to consider that.
Stuff about The Old Man's busters seems fine, though, & citing damage formulas isn't the strongest evidence, IMHO, so if others think it's reasonable, I'm okay with that.


"All Lightners in LW should scale to this calc, that upgrades their LS to Class 50."


This is based on the chocolate milk bottle throwing feat, which I will mention that I personally have issue with it due to it deriving KE from a calculation which uses the wonky measurements of the chocolate milk bottle, the justification I know of which for such is "Sizes in Deltarune are wonky & inconsistent".

My personal issue with it being that said KE basis calc assumes the chocolate milk bottle is 4.25 kg; If it were filled with liquid (Despite Kris just pouring from it.), that'd suggest it were a 4 liter jug, which is huge.
If it's empty, since Kris just poured chocolate milk into it, then that's some seriously heavy bottle material.

However, I'm not a Calculation Group Member, so I'm not sure my bringing up these matters actually matters, especially with the Calculation evaluated as already being accepted.


"Current Snowgrave calc should be replaced with new one. Current calc uses assumption of Noelle freezing air molecules (oxygen and nitrogen), but shape of snowflakes clearly implies that it's water molecules (vapor) that are being freezed. It doesn't change overall scaling, since Noelle already scales to better feats (and nobody else scales to it)."

It seems to be accepted, but for some reason, Content Moderator & Calculation Group Member Therefir, who evaluated it with "
It looks good to me.", in the same message also said "@ Psychomaster35 Any opinions on this?" (I added the space to avoid @-ing Psychomaster35.)....

It may be worth inquiring why they asked fellow Calculation Group Member Psychomaster35 for opinions, but it may just be seeking a second opinion. Considering said evaluation was posted on Octomber 15th, 2025 (3 & a half months ago.), perhaps Psychomaster35's lack of response could be indicative of having no concerns about it.


As for the rest of the Sandbox, I have not found any further issues with it, but of course, any previously brought up & still-unresolved matters in this thread should still be gone over. (Mentioning this due to a lot of the sandbox's contents overlapping with the blog's contents.)
Hope this helps! Sorry for any bother! Good luck!

 

[Qurbonboev]

If you'll forgive my asking, should I assume based on your not mentioning it that you aren't certain/remembering at this time of when Susie said she'd be able to heal Berdly's arm?

She could say it only at start of chapter 4. During that time, Susie healing is still progressing rapidly, and it's usefulness is limited.

Without more information about the statement regarding Berdly's arms, & lacking knowledge on how Ralsei's... reconstitution(?) of his form, this seems reasonable.

Agree

Understood. I'm fine with Space Manipulation being left out of the proposals of this CRT, since it wasn't in the OP, so it can be reserved for later.

Thanks

Base Spamton? Ain't he superior to other Darkners?

No. Base Spamton is not strong darkner by any means. He and Lancer(who too withstands temperature) are actually scaled as being 3x weaker than most Darkners. This is why he needed Neo body in the first place.

Kill seems like a strange word here.

I rechecked some things on the wiki, and it seems that this specific part(about not being able to kill target fully) is actually wrong. Can I just delete it.

Cites a damage formula, but demonstrated through gameplay, so might be okay, I guess?
What do others think?

Other staff member, and supporters agreed.

Ordinarily, Rude Buster & Red Buster's damage take the target's defense into account. If we're going to cite damage formulas & damage numbers seen in gameplay, it may be worthwhile to consider that

This only applies to Susie in chapter 4 key. Red Buster damage being reduced by def isn't relevant to her in this key, since that happened in chapter 1 and 2.

This is based on the chocolate milk bottle throwing feat, which I will mention that I personally have issue with it due to it deriving KE from a calculation which uses the wonky measurements of the chocolate milk bottle, the justification I know of which for such is "Sizes in Deltarune are wonky & inconsistent".

It probably does require sime inquiry. But as now this feat is accepted as valid for scaling AP. So it should be equally valid to use it for scaling LS.

It may be worth inquiring why they asked fellow Calculation Group Member Psychomaster35 for opinions, but it may just be seeking a second opinion. Considering said evaluation was posted on Octomber 15th, 2025 (3 & a half months ago.), perhaps Psychomaster35's lack of response could be indicative of having no concerns about it.

Psychomaster is author of current Snowgrave calc. I asked him for evaluation too, but they didn't answered. Given that I only changed one parameters(and arguments for changing it were convincing enough for another CGM), I think changing calc is reasonable to do.

As for the rest of the Sandbox, I have not found any further issues with it, but of course, any previously brought up & still-unresolved matters in this thread should still be gone over. (Mentioning this due to a lot of the sandbox's contents overlapping with the blog's contents.)

Thanks

 

[Imaginym]

She could say it only at start of chapter 4. During that time, Susie healing is still progressing rapidly, and it's usefulness is limited.

Ah. May need to be found. Might be relevant for justification. I'm fine if that's not done so right away.

No. Base Spamton is not strong darkner by any means.

Despite being a mini-boss?

He and Lancer(who too withstands temperature)

Lancer? Who said he'd been doing controller testing?

are actually scaled as being 3x weaker than most Darkners. This is why he needed Neo body in the first place.

Spamton is 3x weaker than other Darkners in his own chapter & even previous ones??

I rechecked some things on the wiki, and it seems that this specific part(about not being able to kill target fully) is actually wrong. Can I just delete it.

It's your sandbox/blog. I don't oppose it, & if it is indeed wrong, I'm all for it, though it's probably a good idea to explain here how/why it's wrong?

This only applies to Susie in chapter 4 key. Red Buster damage being reduced by def isn't relevant to her in this key, since that happened in chapter 1 and 2.

So the proposition is that Susie's Chapter 4 self, when using DualBuster along Gerson, uses a version that ignores DEF/Durability, despite previous Busters accounting for DEF?

It probably does require sime inquiry. But as now this feat is accepted as valid for scaling AP. So it should be equally valid to use it for scaling LS.

Yeah, it is currently accepted on the blogs, so although I have my issues about its assumptions, I'm willing to withhold those if others think it's fine to allow for now.

Psychomaster is author of current Snowgrave calc. I asked him for evaluation too, but they didn't answered. Given that I only changed one parameters(and arguments for changing it were convincing enough for another CGM), I think changing calc is reasonable to do.

Understandable, sounds fine, then.

Thanks

Happy to help! Glad you appreciate it!
Once again, good luck!

 

[Qurbonboev]

Despite being a mini-boss?

Spamton is 3x weaker than other Darkners in his own chapter & even previous ones??

To elaborate. Main feat for scaling Darkners is Tenna calc, and Tenna is arguably strongest "normal" Darkner physically. Spamton Neo(chapter 2 secret boss) is assumed to be comparable. SNEO is x3 times stronger than base Spamton(based on Spamton statement of gaining x3 times more firepower via NEO body). Stronger darkners(mostly secret and main bosses, normal darkners in later chapters) fully scale to Tenna, most darkners scale as being comparable to base Spamton, so x3 weaker than Tenna.
There is nothing to suggest that base Spamton is remarkable physically at all. He fought Kris while they were alone. Status of mini boss doesn't automatically means that someone is strong physically. Most of mini bosses are difficult not due to strength, but due to some gimmicks(K. Round, Music trio in Chapter two, Rouxls Card, Jackenstein).

Lancer? Who said he'd been doing controller testing?

Lancer is present as item in our pocket during times where Gang members are submerged in acid, are electrocuted, and experience extreme temperature changes in fight with Elnina&Lenina. And he withstands them without any apparent long term issues. If he and Base Spamton(both aren't remarkable in terms of physicality and endurance) can withstands this phenomena, likely no darkners would experience difficulty with them.

So the proposition is that Susie's Chapter 4 self, when using DualBuster along Gerson, uses a version that ignores DEF/Durability, despite previous Busters accounting for DEF?

Yep

It's your sandbox/blog. I don't oppose it, & if it is indeed wrong, I'm all for it, though it's probably a good idea to explain here how/why it's wrong?

Jevil Final attack is designed in specific way that prevents our loss to him(we can't die to final attack). I assumed that it would apply to other characters as well, so Final Attack wouldn't be able to kill opponent(only leave at low HP), but after rereading how it works, it seems that mechanics that prevents our loss to final attack are very specific, so they wouldn't work in matches against anyone other than SOUL/Fun Gang