Deltarune Speed Downgrate CRT

[Colgato]

The Deltarune Verse and all its characters are apparently faster than light because of attacks that utilize lasers.
We clearly see that these lasers utilized by the zappers are NOT moving as fast as real light does.
It's a case of occam's razor to me: What is more likely?
A. Everyone in this universe moves faster than light, but for some reason they just walk normally everywhere instead of speeding through everything.
B. These light-based attacks are moving at the speed the developers set them to move at, not at the actual speed of light. They're made of light but they're not moving as fast as light in the real world does because this is magic and fiction and its pretty common for fiction to depict lasers that don't move at actual light speed. We should trust what we see in game instead of assuming these attacks are faster than what is actually shown.
I think the light-based attacks should be considered to be moving as fast as they're shown to be moving in game.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Welp, lets see how long this lasts


Also disagree FRB btw

 

[Comiphorous]

We clearly see that these lasers utilized by the zappers are NOT moving as fast as real light does.

Because that's terrible game design for it to move so fast the player cannot react.

It's a case of occam's razor to me: What is more likely?
A. Everyone in this universe moves faster than light, but for some reason they just walk normally everywhere instead of speeding through everything.

An issue that's seen in every single piece of fiction where the characters start to reach lightspeed. Should we downgrade Goku (terrible example, but eh) from FTL because he's sometimes seen walking like a regular dude?

B. These light-based attacks are moving at the speed the developers set them to move at, not at the actual speed of light. They're made of light but they're not moving as fast as light in the real world does because this is magic and fiction and its pretty common for fiction to depict lasers that don't move at actual light speed.

We have a whole page about whether lasers can be used for lightspeed.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The calc is ass but you're only using incredulity.

 

[Comiphorous]

The calc is ass but you're only using incredulity.

If the calc is wrong guess it just has to be fixed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

All of this is insane appeal to reality.

A. Everyone in this universe moves faster than light, but for some reason they just walk normally everywhere instead of speeding through everything.

You do realize that if everything goes at actual light-speed on screen, we would not be capable of seeing anything happening whatsoever, right? Like, we do have Asriel Dreemurr and Frisk at Immeasurable speed at their peak, does this mean that they aren't that fast because we can see their attacks moving? Does this mean that Spamton's soundwaves are slower than sound because they can be fully seen and dodged by us?

Yours is just incredulity, we'd have to downgrade literally every videogame because we can control the player character in all their movements

B. These light-based attacks are moving at the speed the developers set them to move at, not at the actual speed of light. They're made of light but they're not moving as fast as light in the real world does because this is magic and fiction and its pretty common for fiction to depict lasers that don't move at actual light speed. We should trust what we see in game instead of assuming these attacks are faster than what is actually shown.

This also is just incredulity, it's really a "they're not light-speed because I say so".

 

[Colgato]

Because that's terrible game design for it to move so fast the player cannot react.

An issue that's seen in every single piece of fiction where the characters start to reach lightspeed.

We have a whole page about whether lasers can be used for lightspeed.

The beam doesn't meet the following requirement

• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.

And I'd say that it doesn't meet the requirement of moving realistically because it, again, moves slowly in game, and, it increases in size when you turn up the volume, which doesn't make sense unless there's magic involved, because why would a light increase in size from the VOLUME increasing? It's clearly magical, just like the rest of the dark world, and can't be assumed to adhere to real world physics.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The beam doesn't meet the following requirement

• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.

And I'd say that it doesn't meet the requirement of moving realistically because it, again, moves slowly in game, and, it increases in size when you turn up the volume, which doesn't make sense unless there's magic involved, because why would a light increase in size from the VOLUME increasing? It's clearly magical, just like the rest of the dark world, and can't be assumed to adhere to real world physics.

There are literally multiple statement implying it uses infrated light, meaning it's that fast lol.

Also "moving slowly in game" isn't an argument, unless we make every speed feat in UTDR invalid because it does not move in few frames to be "realistic".

 

[Comiphorous]

The beam doesn't meet the following requirement

• The beam is stated to move at the speed of light by reliable sources.

"Typically, lasers and other light-based attacks are only accepted to really move at the speed of light if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:"

they don't have to meet all of those criterias at the same time.

And I'd say that it doesn't meet the requirement of moving realistically because it, again, moves slowly in game, and, it increases in size when you turn up the volume, which doesn't make sense unless there's magic involved, because why would a light increase in size from the VOLUME increasing? It's clearly magical, just like the rest of the dark world, and can't be assumed to adhere to real world physics.

strym handled this section.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

There are literally multiple statement implying it uses infrated light, meaning it's that fast lol.

Also "moving slowly in game" isn't an argument, unless we make every speed feat in UTDR invalid because it does not move in few frames to be "realistic".

naw screw frame rate, we would have to downgrade every verse in fiction to subsonic because its visible to us

Comics? We can see the panels

Anime? We can see whats happening on screen

Other games? they also have a frame rate

like wally west outrunning the big bang is now subsonic because of this

 

[SweetDao]

Strym makes sense here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anime? We can see whats happening on screen

Remember this MHS/MHS+ feat? Gotta downgrade it to human speed because the bullet moves very slowly on-screen!

 

[Colgato]

There are literally multiple statement implying it uses infrated light, meaning it's that fast lol.

Also "moving slowly in game" isn't an argument, unless we make every speed feat in UTDR invalid because it does not move in few frames to be "realistic".

I think we should apply more scrutiny to these things when they're clearly magical attacks that adhere to magical properties, I think that we should consider the intent of how the game presents these attacks and the context they appear in, I think that the fact the fun gang is consistently out run by various characters pretty clearly shows the intent wasnt that they can move at light speed and everyone who outruns them also moves at light speed and instead the intent was "oh those lasers dont move at light speed"

 

[Colgato]

Remember this MHS/MHS+ feat? Gotta downgrade it to human speed because the bullet moves very slowly on-screen!

Using an example where there's a clear denotation of when time is being slowed down for the viewer to show that usually if time is being slowed down we'd be informed about it through some visual or audio cue actually strengthens my point.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I'm not a calc group member but I obviously disagree with downgrading the ratings purely based on what looks like arguments from incredulity.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Remember this MHS/MHS+ feat? Gotta downgrade it to human speed because the bullet moves very slowly on-screen!

Omg guys look !1!1

Superman is visible to us despite traveling from the sun to mercury

DC Comics - Superman and Eradicator Flight Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

FTL? Naw he's a fraud!!!

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think we should apply more scrutiny to these things when they're clearly magical attacks that adhere to magical properties

Does this mean that Noelle's ice is magically not ice because it's magic?

I think that we should consider the intent of how the game presents these attacks and the context they appear in, I think that the fact the fun gang is consistently out run by various characters pretty clearly shows the intent wasnt that they can move at light speed and everyone who outruns them also moves at light speed and instead the intent was "oh those lasers dont move at light speed"

All of this is assuming authorial intent, which is just impossible given it relies on just assumptions unless there are many statements hinting at so (or you've asked to Toby Fox directly, which I don't think you did).

But even then, we have two statements inting that the thing uses infrared rays, which are, you know, light. There is also the fact that there are no real contradictions to the thing behaving realistically, as it goes in a straight way, it bounces off walls like the real ones do, and comes from a remoter. It being magic means nothing.

Using an example where there's a clear denotation of when time is being slowed down for the viewer to show that usually if time is being slowed down we'd be informed about it through some visual or audio cue actually strengthens my point.

As if that does not happen all the time even in normal scenes here.

Not to mention that, again, stuff is always slowed down to allow the viewer to even comprehend what's going on, and we go back here.

You do realize that if everything goes at actual light-speed on screen, we would not be capable of seeing anything happening whatsoever, right? Like, we do have Asriel Dreemurr and Frisk at Immeasurable speed at their peak, does this mean that they aren't that fast because we can see their attacks moving? Does this mean that Spamton's soundwaves are slower than sound because they can be fully seen and dodged by us?

Yours is just incredulity, we'd have to downgrade literally every videogame because we can control the player character in all their movements

 

[Colgato]

Omg guys look !1!1

Superman is visible to us despite traveling from the sun to mercury

DC Comics - Superman and Eradicator Flight Speed

vsbattles.fandom.com

FTL? Naw he's a fraud!!!

Traveling a long distance in a short amount of time is an actual basis for a speed feet thats undeniable considering speed is how far you can travel in a given time. But that doesn't apply here.
ALSO! Just remembered, doesn't alot of the AP and Durability for DR trace back to the calc of how much energy it takes for Elnina to generate an ice crystal in a certain amount of time?
IF you're arguing that actually the game is slowed down for us to view it, that means that Elnina calc is UNRELIABLE and needs to be thrown out because it contradicts the idea that we're seeing the game slowed down/at a different time scale, infact, you have to throw out any calcs that rely on time because actually the game might just be slowed down or sped up and not telling us.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The Deltarune Verse and all its characters are apparently faster than light because of attacks that utilize lasers.

Correction: that feat is only Rela+, and is currently only supporting calc. Verse is FTL thanks to this feat

 

[StrymULTRA]

ALSO! Just remembered, doesn't alot of the AP and Durability for DR trace back to the calc of how much energy it takes for Elnina to generate an ice crystal in a certain amount of time?
IF you're arguing that actually the game is slowed down for us to view it, that means that Elnina calc is UNRELIABLE and needs to be thrown out because it contradicts the idea that we're seeing the game slowed down/at a different time scale, infact, you have to throw out any calcs that rely on time because actually the game might just be slowed down or sped up and not telling us.

That is simply a flaw of our tiering system as Elina's calc is actually a downplay. We just divide stuff per actual seconds regardless of other character calcs, as we use Superhuman perception time even for FTL characters in feats that blitz them as otherwise we enter in calc stacking.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Correction: that feat is only Rela+, and is currently only supporting calc. Verse is FTL thanks to this feat

Tbh OP didn't bother to link the Jackenstein feat, so I didn't reply to that either.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh my fallacy...

Listen, as someone who thinks FTL Deltarune is generally bogus, this is genuinely the most dogshit argument against it I've seen. One giant appeal to reality. Like, genuinely, what were you thinking? Not even going for outlier, or anything else, just... this.

 

[Colgato]

Oh my fallacy...

Listen, as someone who thinks FTL Deltarune is generally bogus, this is genuinely the most dogshit argument against it I've seen. One giant appeal to reality. Like, genuinely, what were you thinking? Not even going for outlier, or anything else, just... this.

This is the opposite of an appeal to reality, i'm saying the assumption that the lasers move as fast as real lasers is contradictory to the fiction of the game universe.

 

[Comiphorous]

This is the opposite of an appeal to reality, i'm saying the assumption that the lasers move as fast as real lasers is contradictory to the fiction of the game universe.

how is it a contradiction? beyond you saying it is you haven't even shown anything that would say that it is.

 

[Edutyn]

Oh my fallacy...

Listen, as someone who thinks FTL Deltarune is generally bogus, this is genuinely the most dogshit argument against it I've seen. One giant appeal to reality. Like, genuinely, what were you thinking? Not even going for outlier, or anything else, just... this.

No, no, no. Just grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.

 

[DaReaperMan]

This is the opposite of an appeal to reality, i'm saying the assumption that the lasers move as fast as real lasers is contradictory to the fiction of the game universe.

"We can see it!"

Wanna know who we are in Deltarune?

The Player (Undertale)

The Player Entity is an enigmatic creature that influences Frisk throughout Undertale. Due to seeing Undertale's world as a mere game and its characters as fictional, they seem to lack empathy for the characters and are willing to even kill all of them just to see a different ending. While their...

vsbattles.fandom.com

A 2-B Immeasurable veritable GOD.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

This is the opposite of an appeal to reality, i'm saying the assumption that the lasers move as fast as real lasers is contradictory to the fiction of the game universe.

Your entire argument btw hinges on the idea that because we can perceive the lasers, they MUST not be real lasers

 

[Colgato]

That is simply a flaw of our tiering system as Elina's calc is actually a downplay. We just divide stuff per actual seconds regardless of other character calcs, as we use Superhuman perception time even for FTL characters in feats that blitz them as otherwise we enter in calc stacking.

Is the solution to this "Flaw" not to simply assume that things occur in "actual time" instead of that they're slowed down for the player, unless there's signifigant evidence for the slowing down of time (Such as traveling a distance only possible to travel when moving FTL, or statements in universe that something is FTL, or clear cues that this is the case)

 

[Colgato]

Your entire argument btw hinges on the idea that because we can perceive the lasers, they MUST not be real lasers

My argument hinges on the fact deltarune takes place in a magical fictional world and the attacks are consistently shown not to abide by the laws of physics.

 

[Planck69]

This is just argument from incredulity. Disagree.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Is the solution to this "Flaw" not to simply assume that things occur in "actual time" instead of that they're slowed down for the player, unless there's signifigant evidence for the slowing down of time (Such as traveling a distance only possible to travel when moving FTL, or statements in universe that something is FTL, or clear cues that this is the case)

no because as strym said that enters calc stacking which causes a ton of inconsistencies in fiction

like there are videos of people calc stacking deku to MFTL+ yet we have anti feats like AFO using radio waves to attack and the characters struggling to dodge said radio waves

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is the solution to this "Flaw" not to simply assume that things occur in "actual time" instead of that they're slowed down for the player, unless there's signifigant evidence for the slowing down of time (Such as traveling a distance only possible to travel when moving FTL, or statements in universe that something is FTL, or clear cues that this is the case)

By doing that you'd be doing calc stacking. Again, this is just a flaw we have, using a timeframe this "big" is necessary in order to avoid silly assumptions which rely on fan-calcs and not stated timeframes. It's is a MINIMAL we use, here, it's a downplay.

This is just argument from incredulity. Disagree.

There are 2 staff disagreements here. Do we apply the usual "close after 48 hours" for agreements here or no?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

My argument hinges on the fact deltarune takes place in a magical fictional world and the attacks are consistently shown not to abide by the laws of physics.

And we're saying that as long as its similar enough to the laws of our real world that it can still be used

if we have a beam of light that was yellow and then we had another beam of light that was almost an exact replica in every way but the only difference was that it turns stuff to broccoli on contact would that now dismiss it from being light?

 

[Colgato]

if we have a beam of light that was yellow and then we had another beam of light that was almost an exact replica in every way but the only difference was that it turns stuff to broccoli on contact would that now dismiss it from being light?

No, because you've established that the only difference is the fact it turns stuff into brocolli, just like how the difference between the zapper's light and normal light is the speed at which they move.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, because you've established that the only difference is the fact it turns stuff into brocolli, just like how the difference between the zapper's light and normal light is the speed at which they move.

Just answer to this thing which you've been ghosting from a while, this is the third time I ask.

You do realize that if everything goes at actual light-speed on screen, we would not be capable of seeing anything happening whatsoever, right? Like, we do have Asriel Dreemurr and Frisk at Immeasurable speed at their peak, does this mean that they aren't that fast because we can see their attacks moving? Does this mean that Spamton's soundwaves are slower than sound because they can be fully seen and dodged by us?

 

[Planck69]

By doing that you'd be doing calc stacking. Again, this is just a flaw we have, using a timeframe this "big" is necessary in order to avoid silly assumptions which rely on fan-calcs and not stated timeframes. It's is a MINIMAL we use, here, it's a downplay.

There are 2 staff disagreements here. Do we apply the usual "close after 48 hours" for agreements here or no?

Technically no, but it's not even been an hour. I'd rather we wait a bit if nothing else because it'd be a bit too soon.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

No, because you've established that the only difference is the fact it turns stuff into brocolli, just like how the difference between the zapper's light and normal light is the speed at which they move.

In that case if the difference between zappers light and real light is that zapper uses magic to make it why would that be an anti feat?

 

[Colgato]

In that case if the difference between zappers light and real light is that zapper uses magic to make it why woul that be an anti feat?

Because that calls into question the idea that it moves at the same speed as real light when we see it moving slower than real light and it's a wild illogical leap to make to say that all of deltarune is slowed down because of one fight with a zapper.

 

[StrymULTRA]

In that case if the difference between zappers light and real light is that zapper uses magic to make it why would that be an anti feat?

Magic becomes a disqualifier the moment it becomes convenient, clearly. Only in UTDR attacks being magic somehow means that they're far weaker than the irl counterpart, in every other game this argument never arises. Wonder why!

 

[Colgato]

Just answer to this thing which you've been ghosting from a while, this is the third time I ask.

Yeah spamton's soundwaves are probably not real sound, they're magic and don't adhere to the properties of sound. They're magic-sound attacks. They dont even bounce off the walls. Thats magic.