Deltarune: Removing Magic Scaling

[GodlyCharmander]

I have asked staff to delete all the comments that derail the thread. There were 47 out of the 237 posts that did so, with @Echidnacodefan2512 being the worst offender.

I have also deleted my own derailment myself. Please do not give any meaningless commentary, memes, derailment, or anything that doesn't improve your position in a logical argument. The fact this has 7 pages is a product of this carelessness.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree with the OP for now.

Also, please stop derailing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Titans rising and destroying the Light World being a real catastrophe has been addressed already and the response given before stands, the threat the Roaring poses is ontological. Darkness consuming the Light World is dangerous because it imposes the fantasy framework over reality, turning what is real into what is not. That is a metaphysical threat entirely consistent with the CRT's framework. Ralsei's explanation that Dark Fountains turn everything into a fantasy is the mechanism of the Roaring. An expanding fantasy consuming reality is catastrophic without that fantasy containing physically real energy attacks. The two are not in tension. They are not mutually exclusive.

And another thing.

Stop using "literally fake" or any sort of arguments of that caliber. That is not what I'm arguing for, they exist to some extent, yes, but they're shaped by willpower and imagination, which has been things that manifested into reality in fiction before, yes, but the point is, being made by concepts like that IS support that these magic bulelts are fantasy and could very well not have realistic properties, as you, yourself, refused to acknowledge how inconsistent they are across the board. I acknowledge that they can interact, you're responding to nothing.

If the laser was actually light speed, why is the Fun Gang being tagged by sound waves in Chapter 4? You brushed right off that point.

The balance argument from the prophecy remains an inference layered onto text that doesn't contain it explicitly, as already established. The prophecy treating both Light and Dark as narratively significant does not require Dark to be physically real in the sense needed for energy scaling. Dreams are narratively significant. That doesn't mean their Darkner lightning travels at the speed of real lightning.

Your evidence for the light not being sound speed is note-shaped attacks (which are not necessairly sound speed but can be higher and lower given they're not sound after all), or outliers that are ultimately less consistent with the other feats (the only evidence you showed me is the Wicabel's attack, while the rest, ie SoJ or Susie Ch 1 feat prove that they're well above sound regardless).

Plus you're assuming that the Dark Worlds being "imaginary" in scope automatically invalidates the physics being real, which would make every single feat bunk, including your precious SoJ scaling lol. Do you really want to make everything in the DWs unquantifiable because of this?

Also Subjective Reality created worlds on the wiki are evaluated case by case based on whether their internal physics are consistent enough for calculation. The CRT documents that Dark World physics are demonstrably inconsistent, which is precisely the condition under which calculation is not appropriate regardless of the creation mechanism.

This is a lie. Stuff like OMORI or Yume Nikki is not getting this kind of scrutinity just because the universes are dreams of a human in-universe

Plus I've countered your "inconsistencies" anyways.

It is that the specific mechanism of Dark World creation, willpower and darkness producing thematically determined spaces rather than energetically determined ones, means size-based energy calculations are not applicable because the size is not the product of energy expenditure.

Also Subjective Reality created worlds on the wiki are evaluated case by case based on whether their internal physics are consistent enough for calculation. The CRT documents that Dark World physics are demonstrably inconsistent, which is precisely the condition under which calculation is not appropriate regardless of the creation mechanism.

Gravity and causality operating normally in the Dark World does not establish that all physics apply. Selective physical consistency is not full physical consistency.

The attacks are the specific phenomenon being evaluated, and their behavior is documented across Chapters 2, 3, and 4 as inconsistent with real physical laws regardless of whether gravity works normally.

I have debunked these things already, no idea why you're bringing attacks that are clearly not what they're supposed to represent as a way to say that physics in Dark Worlds is made on Temu.

Yes, Strym. I argued that the music notes in Undertale were not realistic, and therefore, not sound speed.
Here I'm arguing that music notes in Deltarune are not realistic, and therefore, not sound speed.

What exactly is the contradiction here? The fact music notes that are supposed to be sound speed (they are quite literally produced by ringing a bell) under any assumption without contexts are unrealistic is literally an argument that the magic attacks are not realistic and shaped by willpower. Thus, a support that other magic of the game has no obligation to be realistic.

This CRT literally argues sound attacks in Deltarune are not realistic because they demonstrably don't travel at consistent speeds, lasers have tails (thus they CURVE at their rear end), move in specific paths, and bullets get outpaced by sound in the same sequence, all of these are collective evidence that these things don't move at realistic speeds. And if you dislike the sound anti-feat, the bullet anti-feat itself works against FTL. Kris is faster than the bullets, but they are still moving relative to them. FTL Kris, btw.

These positions are not contradictory. They are the same position applied to two different verses: attacks that don't behave according to real physics shouldn't be scaled to real physics. Calling both sets of attacks unrealistic for their respective demonstrated behaviors is applying the same standard consistently. The accusation of inconsistency requires demonstrating that one of these conclusions is wrong, not just that both reached the same verdict about different attacks for documented reasons.

The claim that both games are made by the same person and have similar mechanics is true and actually strengthens the CRT's position rather than undermining it. As we currently accept that the magic in Undertale is unrealistic and doesn't use realistic speeds.

If both are "made by the same person", and "have similar mechanics", then both are not fit for realistic portrayals. You sure you want to go that route?

Indeed I do. Given that by your logic these note attacks are not sound speed because "lol magic", then what stops me from saying that these definitely-not-sound speed notes are FTL? You did not give evidence on why it cannot be the case, you're so tunnel visioned in seeing everything as low as possible that you got used to the idea that "fake sound attacks MUST be slower than sound", which is ridiculous. Once the equalization to the irl element is thrown out, then one can say that the magic bullet can be at whatever speed one wants to.

Also, bringing again the disqualifiers for the beams being SoL:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

The closest case to it is the second, but as I have mentioned above, infrared rays can indeed bounce off things, but the thing in question is a battle box, an element with no fixated properties, it cannot be used as neither a supportive nor opposing point against it being SoL. It having a tail is not mentioned here, and neither is the "sound manipulation" thing, why is it a disqualifier again besides "I say so"? They just press buttons on Zapper's body to increase the "volume", but there's no real sound manipulation that directly messes with those beams (nor would be a reason for it to be a disqualifier even if it were the case).

So yeah, it's both headcanon AND making up standards here.

Light And Darkness As Allegory
The argument that Light and Darkness can be both literal and allegorical simultaneously is not unreasonable, but:

the literal interpretation to be supported by consistent behavior, and the CRT documents that the literal interpretation is not consistently supported. The SOUL's light varying in speed across the same fight sequence is not consistent with literal light.

Real light speed does not vary. An attack whose speed varies cannot be literal light because the defining characteristic of literal light is its constant propagation speed. The inconsistency in the light's behavior disqualifies the literal interpretation, because the one thing real light cannot do is travel at different speeds in the same medium.

The CRT explicitly states the soul light can be kept on the profile as light manipulation since it does illuminate things. The argument is not that the light is not light in any sense. It is that it is not physically real photons traveling at physically real lightspeed, which is specifically what the speed scaling requires. Manipulating light as a phenomenon and traveling at the speed of real photons are different claims and the CRT distinguishes between them precisely.

The Jackenstein lighter comparison doesn't account for the documented speed variation across the fight. A lighter expanding in intensity produces a single continuous illumination event, not multiple discrete beams traveling at measurably different speeds from the same source at the same moment. The CRT documents specific frame counts showing dramatically different propagation speeds for different light events in the same fight: 10 frames for the circle to reach its full radius, 4 frames for the light cannons to reach the edge of the battle box, and 1 frame for Jackenstein's light to cover the entire screen. That variation is not attributable to intensity differences in any physically coherent way.

Also, beams of light are not shot out of an omnidirectional light source from varying intensity, the fact its shooting beams at random is proof its not realistic light.

1. You've conveniently ignored how the "beams" move at the same speed as the expansion of the "main light", the reason why we do not use the brighest light from the SOUL is that we do not really use the light from a bulb to scale the speed of the light, given it's mostly localized and the main thing is what actually radiates the room anyways.
2. The Jackenstein stuff is irrelevant because it's not in the fight. I don't care how close it is to it, they are meant to be different anyways, and given what you've shown, Jack has shown to be capable of manipulating the speed of his light unlike the SOUL, which only increases the brightness.

Gag Feats And Author Intent

The Butch Hartman comparison fails at the level of basic analogy and it needs to be dissected precisely because it's being deployed as though it settles the question when it actually inverts it.

What Butch Hartman did was write Danny vaporizing a golf area. The feat happened. It is in the show. It is a real depicted event.

Hartman was simply unaware of the energy implications of something he deliberately wrote.

Yes, Strym, you are right!
That is the correct application of the "author intent doesn't determine feat validity" principle, because there is a feat to evaluate. The physics of vaporization apply to the event regardless of whether Hartman knew the numbers. Intent about the implications of a feat is irrelevant. The feat exists. Great!

That doesn't apply to the Jackenstein and Zapper feats, though.

The Jackenstein situation is categorically different and the distinction is not subtle.

The argument is not "Toby Fox didn't intend for the light to be this fast and therefore it doesn't count."

That would be the Butch Hartman parallel and it would be a bad argument.

The argument is that there is no comparative interaction between the light and Jackenstein's movement to evaluate in the first place. Jackenstein's movement is a documented gag, a deliberate YTP reference built from sentence mixing, visual stretching, and explicit reference to YTP source phrases.

The light animation is a separate event that does not interact with Jackenstein's movement in any frame-by-frame way that would allow a speed comparison. There isn't a feat here.

These are two independent animations running in the same fight, not a depiction of one thing moving relative to another.

For the Butch Hartman principle to apply, there needs to be a feat. A feat requires a depicted interaction or event with calculable physical implications. Two animations in a gag fight do not constitute a depicted interaction. There is nothing to apply physics to because the game never depicted the light and the character's movement as causally or temporally related in the way required for a speed feat.

This is why "Toby Fox is not a powerscaler" is such a poor response to this specific argument. It would be relevant if the claim were "Toby didn't intend the light to be that fast therefore it isn't." But that's not what's being argued.

The claim is that Toby deliberately animated a gag fight without any intention of depicting a speed relationship, meaning the perceived speed comparison is an artifact of two separate animations existing in the same sequence, not a real depicted event. You don't need to be a powerscaler to know whether you depicted two things moving relative to each other. You just need to have made a deliberate creative choice about what you were showing, and the documented YTP references throughout Jackenstein's fight establish that the deliberate creative choice was comedic homage, not speed depiction. Unlike Hartman, who chose to show Danny vaporizing something and was simply unaware of the energy math, Toby Fox did not choose to show Jackenstein's movement relative to the light in any causally meaningful way. They were animated separately and this is proven by the fact all the light sources don't necessarily respect one another.

The former is a feat with unknown implications. The latter is not a feat.

The narrative contradiction compounds this further and was not addressed in the response being replied to, which is telling. The SOUL's light varies in propagation speed across the same fight and in comparison to other light sources in the game. Real light cannot vary in speed.

A depicted interaction involving something that demonstrably does not behave as real light cannot be used to establish a speed feat based on the assumption that it is real light.

Even if you granted that Jackenstein's fight contained a genuine speed comparison, which it doesn't for the reasons already established, the light being compared against is documented as non-physical across multiple independent showings.

You cannot extract a physically meaningful speed value from a comparison involving a reference object whose speed is demonstrably not fixed or physically real. The Butch Hartman case works because vaporization has fixed, calculable energy requirements regardless of authorial awareness.

This case fails because the reference phenomenon, the light, has no fixed speed to measure against. It is not that the implications of the feat are unknown to the author. It is that the reference object the feat would be measured against is inconsistent by direct in-game demonstration, meaning even a genuine interaction would yield no usable number.

The Sound of Justice cutscene is the correct contrast here and it exposes exactly why Jackenstein fails as a feat source. In that cutscene, Toby Fox made specific deliberate animation choices to depict a character's movement relative to sound waves in a non-gag narrative context.

EDIT: SOUND OF JUSTICE CAN LITERALLY DODGE KRIS' ATTACKS WITH EASE

And you think I'm "making up authorital intent"? Is that not evidence that Toby Fox knows exactly where his characters are in speed?

Every frame of that sequence reflects an intentional decision about how the character moves relative to a known reference. That is a depicted interaction with a physically meaningful reference object. That is what a feat looks like. Jackenstein has none of these properties: no deliberate speed depiction, no causally related interaction between the character and the light, a documented gag framework governing the entire fight, and a reference object whose speed is contradicted by other in-game showings.

The gap between what Jackenstein's fight is and what the Sound of Justice cutscene is represents the gap between a non-feat and a feat, and treating them as comparable speed sources requires ignoring everything that makes the distinction meaningful.

This entire bunch of yap misses my point.

What I meant here is that it does not really matter that the sound wave was not completely frozen, what matters is that they're still faster than sound, and them being FTL is enough to achieve this. My idea is that realistic portrayal of the gap between things in speed is not really a mandatory requirement because authors most of the time just don't know how fast these things are, otherwise we might start to use again things like MFTL+ or higher beings not being that tier because their speed, outside of these feats, is still relative to mundane things like wind, human perception, and other stuff which is clearly just for story convenience and not a genuine limit of speed, just the author not knowing.

Toby simply is not aware of the difference between sound and light speed, he just knew the latter is faster and that's it.

Also you're lying again, the Fun Gang canonically sucks at hitting opponents in complete darkness, and yet Ralsei easily managed to kill SoJ anyway.

You already admitted the music note attacks are not actual sound.

That creates a contradiction in your standard.

So when a Darkner based on a bell, instrument, speaker, or sound concepts fires "music notes," there is no obligation for those attacks to obey real-world acoustics or sound propagation. They are magical bullet patterns tied to the Darkner’s thematic identity. That matters because your position selectively applies realism only when convenient.

If a Darkner Bell does not need to produce literal sound waves with realistic sonic velocities, then a Darkner Remote also does not need to produce literal infrared beams with real-world propagation speeds.

Both are manifestations of Dark World magic derived from object symbolism.

You cannot say:

"Music notes are magical abstractions, therefore they are not sound."

while simultaneously arguing:

“Remote attacks must inherit real infrared properties and speeds from real remotes.”

That is cherry-picking the exact degree of realism you want from object representation.

So the standard needs to stay consistent: Either Darkners inherit strict real-world physics from their source objects across the board, or they do not.

You cannot dismiss instrument-based attacks as non-literal magic, then immediately turn around and demand scientific realism from remote-control attacks because it benefits a speed interpretation.

You're once again having a complete black and white view. I am saying that the notes are not sound speed because they do not behave as such, and thus cannot be used as any kind of limiter towards other things, while the Zapper and Jackenstein's feats instead are valid due to them being realistically light overall with little to no contradiction here besides uncited standards.

The Titan Sustenance Feat Argument
The VSBW Stabilization Feats page is being cited as support for the Titan's 7-B rating via sustaining the Dark World.

Sustenance feats derive AP from the energy required to maintain a construct in existence. The energy value is calculated from the construct being sustained.

For Dark World sustenance to yield 7-B, the Dark World itself must be a physically real space whose existence requires physically real energy to maintain.

It's NOT.

The CRT's argument that Dark Worlds are non-Euclidean, thematically determined spaces rather than energetically determined ones directly undermines the premise of the sustenance calculation. If the Dark World's size is not the product of energy expenditure but of willpower and theme, the energy required to sustain it is not derivable from its apparent dimensions using standard calculations.

The sustenance feat standard doesn't bypass the non-Euclidean problem.

Furthermore, the CRT documents that the size of Dark Worlds is not proportional to the physical space of their origin, which means even if sustenance feats were applicable, the size value being used for the calculation is not a physically meaningful quantity. The Titan sustaining a city-sized Dark World does not imply city-level energy if the city-sized Dark World required no city-level energy to exist in the first place.

Also, LET'S READ THE RULES, SHALL WE?

Requirement 2 explicitly states that the structure must be directly sustained by the character's own power and not by their existence, magical properties, or an unknown metaphysical connection. Titan's is sustained by its existence, and has an unknown metaphysical connection, willpower.

The Dark Worlds are repeatedly described as manifestations of darkness, willpower, fantasy, and determination, with their existence tied to the Fountain system itself rather than to measurable energetic output from the Titans. That immediately raises the exact limitation the page warns about: a magical or unknown component linking the structure to the entity independent of regular statistics.

Requirement 3 is also not satisfied because there is no evidence that sustaining a Dark World is comparable to physically destroying or overpowering the entirety of that structure. The Roaring is portrayed as an ontological collapse where Darkness overtakes reality conceptually, not as a conventional explosion or energetic annihilation of a city-sized construct. The standards explicitly distinguish between sustaining a structure and matching the force required to completely destroy it, and Dark Worlds are never shown to instantly collapse from lack of raw power in the manner required for direct AP equivalence.

Requirement 4 additionally remains unsupported because the Titans' supposed stabilization level does not consistently scale to regular combat statistics anywhere in the narrative. The verse repeatedly depicts combat through highly abstract, fantasy-driven attacks with inconsistent physical behavior, making it impossible to establish that sustaining a thematically generated Dark World translates to conventional destructive output.

The "willpower" in question is from the Lightner, which is what shapes the Dark World in the first place, hence why Susie's DW is different from the Knight's. But the Lightner is not the Dark Fountain, the Titan is, which make the entire point about willpower genuinely bunk. Lightners do not even use the Darkness Titan use, nor are made from it, the Titans instead are what is made from it, they're physically the energy that is sustaining the DW in existence.

Also, requirement 3 says this:

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Obv we're not talking about a universe, but the point is that the Dark Worlds instantly vanish the moment the fountain is sealed, implying that the Titan's darkness (or better, its physical existence) is what is making these DWs in the first place, hence the rating.

Not gonna reply to the rest since it's basically stuff I already said and I don't wanna repeat.

I agree with the OP for now.

Also, please stop derailing.

Are you sure? Both me and SomebodyData gave long counters too before this one :V

 

[AyOgUyS]

You're once again having a complete black and white view. I am saying that the notes are not sound speed because they do not behave as such, and thus cannot be used as any kind of limiter towards other things, while the Zapper and Jackenstein's feats instead are valid due to them being realistically light overall with little to no contradiction here besides uncited standards.

Well just because our standards do not explicitly state something does not mean it's necessarily invalid to use as an argument. As an example, nowhere does it explicitly state that light feeling wet to the touch is a disqualifier but that is obviously a quality light does not have and OP has already explained why Dark World phenomena function on willpower rather than realistic physics in great detail, and these FTL feats are highly inconsistent with how DR characters are usually portrayed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well just because our standards do not explicitly state something does not mean it's necessarily invalid to use as an argument. As an example, nowhere does it explicitly state that light feeling wet to the touch is a disqualifier but that is obviously a quality light does not have and OP has already explained why Dark World phenomena function on willpower rather than realistic physics in great detail, and these FTL feats are highly inconsistent with how DR characters are usually portrayed.

Holy false equivalence here. If light is wet to the TOUCH it means that it can be touched, which is normally impossible without things such as NPI due to it being energy, and if you try to use NPI as an anti feat there, then the point is self-defeating.

Also, the "usual portrayal" is really just assuming that the "notes" must be fixed at below sound speed (nothing says they do), and they're portrayed as much faster than sound regardless, which fits with their Relativistic/FTL things.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Holy false equivalence here. If light is wet to the TOUCH it means that it can be touched, which is normally impossible without things such as NPI due to it being energy, and if you try to use NPI as an anti feat there, then the point is self-defeating.

Hm. Ok I admit that was probably not a good example.

Also, the "usual portrayal" is really just assuming that the "notes" must be fixed at below sound speed (nothing says they do), and they're portrayed as much faster than sound regardless, which fits with their Relativistic/FTL things.

Well in cutscenes and other moments where speed is emphasized like the SoJ fight, the DR cast is only portrayed as being comparable to sound waves rather than light. They are consistently tagged by projectiles that are blatantly nowhere near the speed of light. And the Jackenstein fight is portrayed as being very comedic and unlikely to be meant to be taken seriously.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well in cutscenes and other moments where speed is emphasized like the SoJ fight

Already explained why it's not an anti feat, Toby is not a physics nerd and one does not expect to portay everything as completely frozen just because it'd be in a realistic scenario.

the DR cast is only portrayed as being comparable to sound waves rather than light.

Literally only 2 times against fodder enemies who use sound waves, otherwise in cutscenes they're indeed decipted as much faster than sound.

And the Jackenstein fight is portrayed as being very comedic and unlikely to be meant to be taken seriously.

A non-argument. Undertale and Deltarune are literally comedic for most of their lore, if a feat is there, then we use it, it does not matter how "funny" it is. There's no rule stopping us from using these feats, otherwise shows like Looney Tunes would have all of their feats unusable because they're all comedic.

Y'all really have to stop being broken discs here, I replied to already this stuff.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Your evidence for the light not being sound speed is note-shaped attacks (which are not necessairly sound speed but can be higher and lower given they're not sound after all), or outliers that are ultimately less consistent with the other feats (the only evidence you showed me is the Wicabel's attack, while the rest, ie SoJ or Susie Ch 1 feat prove that they're well above sound regardless).

Plus you're assuming that the Dark Worlds being "imaginary" in scope automatically invalidates the physics being real, which would make every single feat bunk, including your precious SoJ scaling lol. Do you really want to make everything in the DWs unquantifiable because of this?

Please don't use such "inflamatory" descriptors:
"You're using this to automatically invalidate realism"

Like, no dude. I'm building an argument that uses this as a foundation. Nothing here is "automatic". This just makes my argument seem more unreasonable than it really is, and you know that's not true.

My point is, because the Dark Worlds are based on fantasy, willpower, and a lightner's vision, we have little reason to believe the attacks that come from this fantasy are realistic by default. And this is the main thing, I don't deny they could be realistic if that was demonstrated. Of course, we can't cherry-pick. Magic is either realistic or not, in that particular department.

I don't disagree they're well above sound, my argument is how these feats are still well below FTL.

I'd like to point out how some of these music note attacks are literally generated by bells, and bell attacks, they are clearly intended to represent sound, hell, our acts are called musical acts and our opponents are actual musical instruments. Yet they move in unrealistic ways due to the fact the world is fantasy. This is my point, the magic has no concern for realism in behavior, why would we assume it for speed? Is my stance really that unreasonable? You concur that Wicabel is a proper counter, after all.

This is a lie. Stuff like OMORI or Yume Nikki is not getting this kind of scrutinity just because the universes are dreams of a human in-universe

Plus I've countered your "inconsistencies" anyways.

I have debunked these things already, no idea why you're bringing attacks that are clearly not what they're supposed to represent as a way to say that physics in Dark Worlds is made on Temu.

I'm sorry, but there's far more contradictions than just the music notes, and you have not addressed them in any meaningful way. This level of scrutinity should be applied to those verses, but they likely have showings that support the assumption that the elements there are realistic in propagation. The fact these verses do not fall under the same scrutiny is a mistake on their end, I'd treat it just the same if I scaled them.

Plus, your counter, with all due respect, is just saying they're outliers. They're not. Susie Chapter 1 was Subsonic, Sound of Justice is High Hypersonic, and the Wicabel "tagging" is Hypersonic. They're all in the same ball park, Deltarune was a whole work way better as a Hypersonic verse, even if we were to remove magic scaling for its inconsistent nature.

Indeed I do. Given that by your logic these note attacks are not sound speed because "lol magic", then what stops me from saying that these definitely-not-sound speed notes are FTL? You did not give evidence on why it cannot be the case, you're so tunnel visioned in seeing everything as low as possible that you got used to the idea that "fake sound attacks MUST be slower than sound", which is ridiculous. Once the equalization to the irl element is thrown out, then one can say that the magic bullet can be at whatever speed one wants to.

Strym, you know why we can't do that. Because you're establishing that magic is supposed to be realistic on the Darkner TV Remote, while claiming that the magic is unrealistic on the Darkner Bell. Both of them are representation of real objects, that produce magic inspired by that object.

Why would Zapper, the TV Remote, have speed of light beams, while Wicabel, the Church Bell, not have speed of sound shockwaves?

You do realize this creates a double standard? And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim how necessarily fast these things are, my point is just the fact we can't properly rate these magic bullets.

I genuinely wouldn't mind FTL Deltarune if that's what the verse presented to us, but I have given you reasoning as to why that's not the case.

Fake sound attacks don't necessarily have to be slower than sound. But they shouldn't be assumed to be as fast as real sound by default, they're neutral ground at best, and I've shown you reason why they're not realistic.

Let me be clear, yes I think these magic bullets should scale to the characters, but we can't use the unrealistic magic as scaling if they're... Well, unrealistic.

If we accept Wicabel's sound waves as being "however fast the narrative needs to be", we reject the reasoning for using Zapper.

Also, bringing again the disqualifiers for the beams being SoL:

• The beam is shown to move at different speeds in the same material.
• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

The closest case to it is the second, but as I have mentioned above, infrared rays can indeed bounce off things, but the thing in question is a battle box, an element with no fixated properties, it cannot be used as neither a supportive nor opposing point against it being SoL. It having a tail is not mentioned here, and neither is the "sound manipulation" thing, why is it a disqualifier again besides "I say so"? They just press buttons on Zapper's body to increase the "volume", but there's no real sound manipulation that directly messes with those beams (nor would be a reason for it to be a disqualifier even if it were the case).

Wait, so you do admit that Zapper's laser curve at their rear end?

Buddy, case closed. There isn't anything to debate about here. The laser has unrealistic properties. The battle box being neutral works for me, you were using as a positive earlier.

So yeah, it's both headcanon AND making up standards here.

1. You've conveniently ignored how the "beams" move at the same speed as the expansion of the "main light", the reason why we do not use the brighest light from the SOUL is that we do not really use the light from a bulb to scale the speed of the light, given it's mostly localized and the main thing is what actually radiates the room anyways.
2. The Jackenstein stuff is irrelevant because it's not in the fight. I don't care how close it is to it, they are meant to be different anyways, and given what you've shown, Jack has shown to be capable of manipulating the speed of his light unlike the SOUL, which only increases the brightness.

I haven't ignored this, it's just not what I compared it to. The main "bulb" of the soul coming from the soul, the circle, expands from the epicenter at a rate, which is not consistent with the beams of light.

That's just true. And the fact it shoots beams like that when the origin point is already beaming is a circle is already unrealistic. The more likely explanation is that it's just an animation, and it doesn't narratively interact with the other animations from the characters in terms of speed.

Fair enough about the cutscene. But even in the fight itself, the "unleash" act has the light crossing the vertical distance in one frame. It's blatantly inconsistent, and it's not due to incompetence, there's just no real intent of showcasing relative speed to these pre-defined animations, in my opinion.

This entire bunch of yap misses my point.

What I meant here is that it does not really matter that the sound wave was not completely frozen, what matters is that they're still faster than sound, and them being FTL is enough to achieve this. My idea is that realistic portrayal of the gap between things in speed is not really a mandatory requirement because authors most of the time just don't know how fast these things are, otherwise we might start to use again things like MFTL+ or higher beings not being that tier because their speed, outside of these feats, is still relative to mundane things like wind, human perception, and other stuff which is clearly just for story convenience and not a genuine limit of speed, just the author not knowing.

Toby simply is not aware of the difference between sound and light speed, he just knew the latter is faster and that's it.

That's a fine logic to have, when the difference is one or two orders of magnitude.

That's not a fine logic to have when it comes from a gap of 36 thousand times, that's if we just use SoL, and not FTL, then the difference is 100 thousand times. That's just not an acceptable gap to be inconsistent.

The point I made is that, the scene deliberately made to demonstrate speed by the author, uses sound waves in slow motion, and the characters moving relative to it.

And I'm sorry, but this line of reasoning that Toby Fox is some sort of moron that doesn't know that light can't be relative to sound doesn't work, it's just as much of a headcanon as your earlier rebuttal to my "author intent" point. A high schooler would know the difference. I never get this logic that everyone has to assume the author of a particular work didn't finish school, or didn't have access to information to align their intent.

Also you're lying again, the Fun Gang canonically sucks at hitting opponents in complete darkness, and yet Ralsei easily managed to kill SoJ anyway.

Fair enough. But Sound of Justice cannot have been 36 thousand times slower than Gerson's hammer swings, as Susie believed wholeheartedly that he was the old man to the bitter end.

You're once again having a complete black and white view. I am saying that the notes are not sound speed because they do not behave as such, and thus cannot be used as any kind of limiter towards other things, while the Zapper and Jackenstein's feats instead are valid due to them being realistically light overall with little to no contradiction here besides uncited standards.

Strym, if the notes coming from real objects that produce sound are not realistic, that does work as a reason to discredit Zapper being realistic "just because he's called a TV Remote"

The gang is literally blitzed by "an actual camera" in the same chapter. This is not trying to claim "one of them is light speed and the other isn't", no. But I'm showing how inconsistent these showings are.

The "willpower" in question is from the Lightner, which is what shapes the Dark World in the first place, hence why Susie's DW is different from the Knight's. But the Lightner is not the Dark Fountain, the Titan is, which make the entire point about willpower genuinely bunk. Lightners do not even use the Darkness Titan use, nor are made from it, the Titans instead are what is made from it, they're physically the energy that is sustaining the DW in existence.

What. That's not my point. Darkness is not a material that has to sustain proportional energy in the first place, Dark Worlds are made from willpower, like you said. Their sizes are not built from energy, and it is canon that Determination alone can create such fantasy lands. That's my whole point.

Also, requirement 3 says this:

Obv we're not talking about a universe, but the point is that the Dark Worlds instantly vanish the moment the fountain is sealed, implying that the Titan's darkness (or better, its physical existence) is what is making these DWs in the first place, hence the rating.

The fountains are instantly destroyed by sealment, not by "lack of support" from the Titan. That requirement doesn't do anything in your favor.

Your previous response was much better, this one doesn't work nearly as well.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

otherwise in cutscenes they're indeed decipted as much faster than sound.

The argument that being "faster than the sound they're moving relative to is enough" doesn't work.

If a character is "millions of times faster than sound", the act of being tagged by sound even if you're still ultimately faster still acts as an anti-feat.

"I personally don't have that requirement" is a non-argument, authors have to portray their characters accurately to some extent, not by being, literally, 36 thousand times below what they allegedly believe their characters scale to.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Strym's counterpoint.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Please don't use such "inflamatory" descriptors:
"You're using this to automatically invalidate realism"

Like, no dude. I'm building an argument that uses this as a foundation. Nothing here is "automatic". This just makes my argument seem more unreasonable than it really is, and you know that's not true.

My point is, because the Dark Worlds are based on fantasy, willpower, and a lightner's vision, we have little reason to believe the attacks that come from this fantasy are realistic by default. And this is the main thing, I don't deny they could be realistic if that was demonstrated. Of course, we can't cherry-pick. Magic is either realistic or not, in that particular department.

I don't disagree they're well above sound, my argument is how these feats are still well below FTL.

I'd like to point out how some of these music note attacks are literally generated by bells, and bell attacks, they are clearly intended to represent sound, hell, our acts are called musical acts and our opponents are actual musical instruments. Yet they move in unrealistic ways due to the fact the world is fantasy. This is my point, the magic has no concern for realism in behavior, why would we assume it for speed? Is my stance really that unreasonable? You concur that Wicabel is a proper counter, after all.

Because the Wicabel's case is one against multiple other instances, and the Zapper's case is not as unrealistic as those note attacks? Come on.

I'm sorry, but there's far more contradictions than just the music notes, and you have not addressed them in any meaningful way. This level of scrutinity should be applied to those verses, but they likely have showings that support the assumption that the elements there are realistic in propagation. The fact these verses do not fall under the same scrutiny is a mistake on their end, I'd treat it just the same if I scaled them.

No it's you having strict standards for the sake of being strict lmfao. You'd make those verses literally unscalable if we apply these logic, which would defeat the point of powerscaling them.

Like imagine writing "Unknown (Destroyed a huge rock in one punch, but given that the world he's in is just a dream, then normal physics cannot be used to quantify the feat)", it'd make the site look like a joke more than it already is.

Plus, your counter, with all due respect, is just saying they're outliers. They're not. Susie Chapter 1 was Subsonic, Sound of Justice is High Hypersonic, and the Wicabel "tagging" is Hypersonic. They're all in the same ball park, Deltarune was a whole work way better as a Hypersonic verse, even if we were to remove magic scaling for its inconsistent nature.

Just because it has more feats in that range it does not contradict the lightspeed showings, they're not portrayed as being caps at all.

Plus the SoJ and the Susie stuff are all super casual lmfao, how could you omit that!?

I haven't ignored this, it's just not what I compared it to. The main "bulb" of the soul coming from the soul, the circle, expands from the epicenter at a rate, which is not consistent with the beams of light.

That's just true. And the fact it shoots beams like that when the origin point is already beaming is a circle is already unrealistic. The more likely explanation is that it's just an animation, and it doesn't narratively interact with the other animations from the characters in terms of speed.

Fair enough about the cutscene. But even in the fight itself, the "unleash" act has the light crossing the vertical distance in one frame. It's blatantly inconsistent, and it's not due to incompetence, there's just no real intent of showcasing relative speed to these pre-defined animations, in my opinion.

Beaming is not meaning that's not realistic, a lighter is not an unrealistic source because it shoots focused light in an already lighted environment lmfao.

Also I'd not use things in the "normal" menu as ways to showcase how it works in the battle box, given they seem to operate differently like with the cutscene thing I've mentioned, they should be evaluated in their own instances.

Wait, so you do admit that Zapper's laser curve at their rear end?

Buddy, case closed. There isn't anything to debate about here. The laser has unrealistic properties. The battle box being neutral works for me, you were using as a positive earlier.

I did not, stop twisting my words lmfao. I just said thay them bouncing is not evidence of anything, neither positive or negative, NOT that it's evidence of them bending shit.

Fair enough. But Sound of Justice cannot have been 36 thousand times slower than Gerson's hammer swings, as Susie believed wholeheartedly that he was the old man to the bitter end.

Same Gerson who held back constantly against her btw.

The gang is literally blitzed by "an actual camera" in the same chapter. This is not trying to claim "one of them is light speed and the other isn't", no. But I'm showing how inconsistent these showings are.

You cannot really say that they're "blitzed" if the thing is covering the whole area, can't really dodge something that covers everywhere you'd go.

What. That's not my point. Darkness is not a material that has to sustain proportional energy in the first place, Dark Worlds are made from willpower, like you said. Their sizes are not built from energy, and it is canon that Determination alone can create such fantasy lands. That's my whole point.

The willpower of the LIGHTNER CREATING THOSE FOUNTAINS, which is irrelavant to the Titan scaling at all.

The fountains are instantly destroyed by sealment, not by "lack of support" from the Titan. That requirement doesn't do anything in your favor.

The Dark Worlds are what's being destroyed, stop being disingeneous.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with Strym's counterpoint.

This makes it a 3-1 disagreement, then.

Given that Deltarune is not a controversial verse and 48 hours did indeed pass, should this be closed?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I agree with Strym's counterpoint.

That's unfortunate, so not even the inconsistencies are enough to disprove 7-B and FTL? Welp... I wish to hear from @DarkDragonMedeus and @SomebodyData's stances, if they have been persuated by my points or not.

And @Qawsedf234, who wanted to give his take on the thread but never had the chance. If nothing changes, then I will just concede.

Main Points:

• Original Post
• Strym #1
• Response #1
• Strym #2
• Response #2
• Strym #3

I believe that is everything relevant. There were other points of contention.

Would you be so kind as to tag them?

 

[LittleGuy99]

Having read it all again, I still think Strym makes more sense

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Unknown (Destroyed a huge rock in one punch, but given that the world he's in is just a dream, then normal physics cannot be used to quantify the feat)

You're still treating like I said the mere act of being a dream is an automatic defeater, which I didn't. This is honestly pointless, I don't feel the need to respond to you any longer.

 

[SomebodyData]

Main Points:

• Original Post
• Strym #1
• Response #1
• Strym #2
• Response #2
• Strym #3

I believe that is everything relevant. There were other points of contention.

Would you be so kind as to tag them?

@Qawsedf234 and @DarkDragonMedeus

I understand the thread has passed grace but if either of you guys would like to post before it gets closed in a bit, please do so.

Atm, I'm at work so I won't be able to this time but want to make sure this thread is fairly analyzed.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@Qawsedf234 and @DarkDragonMedeus

I understand the thread has passed grace but if either of you guys would like to post before it gets closed in a bit, please do so.

Atm, I'm at work so I won't be able to this time but want to make sure this thread is fairly analyzed.

Thank you very much. After their votes (and reevaluation), if not persuated, the thread can likely be finished.

I'd also appreciate your re-evaluation.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Are you sure? Both me and SomebodyData gave long counters too before this one :V

I didn't see this earlier, I'll read over it when I get the chance if the thread isn't closed by then.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I didn't see this earlier, I'll read over it when I get the chance if the thread isn't closed by then.

That's unfortunate, so not even the inconsistencies are enough to disprove 7-B and FTL? Welp... I wish to hear from @DarkDragonMedeus and @SomebodyData's stances, if they have been persuated by my points or not.

And @Qawsedf234, who wanted to give his take on the thread but never had the chance. If nothing changes, then I will just concede.

Main Points:

• Original Post
• Strym #1
• Response #1
• Strym #2
• Response #2
• Strym #3

I believe that is everything relevant. There were other points of contention.

Would you be so kind as to tag them?

This is the summary of the main points.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Hey, you didn't count Strym's vote in the OP lol

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Hey, you didn't count Strym's vote in the OP lol

Lmao, I was counting them and forgot about the main one

 

[Qawsedf234]

understand the thread has passed grace but if either of you guys would like to post before it gets closed in a bit, please do so.

I'll respond after work at like 5-6 PM EST if you want to leave the thread open.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I understand the thread has passed grace but if either of you guys would like to post before it gets closed in a bit, please do so.

So, reading the OP, I ultimately see the following claims:

Opening Post

• The Dark Worlds are essentially illusions and not pocket spaces or warped real world spaces
  • The OP, from what I'm reading, is confused about what UES means in this context. For creation, it scales to AP when you can prove it uses a lower amount of energy compared to other abilities, if they operate from the same source. The UES is not really relevant; it's the amount of energy it takes to create the realm vs the amount of energy they can expend in an attack action
• The various energy sources used by attacks in the game, like sound bullets or laser beams, to not have enough realistic properties to be considered real
• Even if the above is not true, the core FTL scaling is about a joke fight and not consistent in regard to other showings within Deltarune

Response #1

• Ultimately, I'm leaning more towards Strym's case here. The worlds seem like they corrupted real places and changed them. Things that happen within the realm are reflected in the real world due to this. Additionally, the world's being non-Euclidean ultimately doesn't matter. It's if the space they take up is tangible or not, rather than if they follow proper geometric principles. Having said that, neither the OP or Strym has proved that the Titans have any reason to scale to the creation of the realms. If it's just "they have more willpower," you have to showcase that that willpower is funneled in a superior fashion to other abilities.
• I'm not convinced by the Zapper's laser points. The beams have nothing in common with actual light beams, and them bouncing off surfaces only matters if the surfaces are reflective. They also completely change colors, narrow down unrealistically, and come from a warped source that's not scientific. The points about the sound waves being usable I do agree with. It just seems like that's how the author depicts sound waves in this particular work for their attacks.
• Strym brings up stabilization feats like I mentioned before, but still does not provide evidence for this section: "Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats." Them stabilizing or creating a realm is only one half of a showing; you must show that they can use comparable or greater power in other attacks.
• I sorta get Strym's point with the Jackenstein fight. It being jokey in nature does not make the feat invalid by itself. Now it can be an outlier or it can be unusable for other reasons, but the fight being a joke by itself is not enough to dismiss it

Counter Response #1

At this point, since I'm on a deadline now due to bad time management skills, I'll just have to speed run through the rest. I'm going to divide them into the following parts: Dark World being real, Titans scaling to the dark world, Sound scaling, Zapper being usable, Jackenstein being usable

• Dark World being real: Like before, I'm getting that they're corruptions, but that doesn't make them unusable. It just means that they don't follow standard geometry. The spaces being smaller outside than inside also isn't an anti-feat for a pocket or pseudo-pocket dimension space. We have Low 2-C realms contained within finite objects on the wiki for similar reasons
• Titans scaling to the dark world: Nothing provided so far leads me to believe that they should scale to stabilization feats. The argument the OP is using, however, barely addresses this issue until the end
• Sound Scaling: The proposed sound scaling looks fine
• Zapper being usable: I don't think Remoter is usable
• Jackenstein being usable: I think Jackenstein is a legit fight, but an outlier, and shouldn't be used for scaling

Response #2

• Dark World being real: Strym provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Titans scaling to the dark world: Strym provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Sound Scaling: Strym provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Zapper being usable; Strym provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Jackenstein being usable: Strym provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint

Counter Response #2

• Dark World being real: Charmander provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Titans scaling to the dark world: Charmander provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Sound Scaling: Charmander provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Zapper being usable: Charmander provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint
• Jackenstein being usable: Charmander provides nothing that changes my previous viewpoint

Response #3

• Nothing changes my viewpoint

My conclusion

• OP doesn't convince me that Dark Worlds aren't real enough to be considered for pocket dimensions or realms in general
• Strym provided no evidence that the creation/stabilization showings scale to physicals. I think scaling stats with stabilization should be removed, barring more evidence being presented
• Zapper's beam is unusable in my view
• Sound scaling seems reasonable, but they're not capped at sub-sonic
• Jackenstein's speed feat is a massive outlier compared to other showings and shouldn't be used. I don't see any evidence of the electricity feat actually having lightning-like speeds.

EDIT: Mentally hallucinated Zapper as Remorter for some reason.

 

[Arceus0x]

Strym provided no evidence that the creation/stabilization showings scales to physicals. I think they should be removed barring more evidence being presented

The argument here is that they fit the stabilization criteria (as you've seen he discussed it with Ultima, maybe you could ping him if you wanna) as Titans are fountains and fountains give form to the DWs. Since the Titan is a walking fountain that shoots laser beams it ends up scaling.

Remorter's beam is unusable in my view

Can you expand on why? I don't particularly mind it but I would like it if you could explain why you think it's unusable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The argument here is that they fit the stabilization criteria (as you've seen he discussed it with Ultima, maybe you could ping him if you wanna) as Titans are fountains and fountains give form to the DWs. Since the Titan is a walking fountain that shoots laser beams it ends up scaling.

That is not a justification for scaling. You must showcase that they can use a similar or greater amount of energy in attacks as they do in sustaining a realm. This is usually done by UES, but there's other ways to prove this. Simply attacking is not a justification.

Can you expand on why? I don't particularly mind it but I would like it if you could explain why you think it's unusable.

I did so in the previous segments of my post:

• I'm not convinced by the Zapper's laser points. The beams have nothing in common with actual light beams, and them bouncing off surfaces only matters if the surfaces are reflective. They also completely change colors, narrow down unrealistically, and come from a warped source that's not scientific. The points about the sound waves being usable I do agree with. It just seems like that's how the author depicts sound waves in this particular work for their attacks.

 

[Arceus0x]

That is not a justification for scaling. You must showcase that they can use a similar or greater amount of energy in attacks as they do in sustaining a realm. This is usually done by UES, but there's other ways to prove this. Simply attacking is not a justification.

I mean I'll leave the scans to Strym, though the fountains are essentially a non-stop energy provider. The moment the fountain is closed the pocket dimension also closes as it is specifically what gives them form. The Titan comes from a high concentration of darkness and uses the darkness in quesiton to spawn creatures and to attack, which is supported by the fact that light counters its attacks and breaks through its shields.

Basically, Fountains of Darkness use darkness to give form to DWs, the Titan is basically 5 fountains in a trench coat, The Titan has advanced darkness and uses it to fight

I did so in the previous segments of my post:

Ok, I'll let the others tackle this but I am fine with that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Basically, Fountains of Darkness use darkness to give form to DWs, the Titan is basically 5 fountains in a trench coat, The Titan has advanced darkness and uses it to fight

None of that is meeting the requirements spelled out in both pages:

• In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.
• Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats

Nothing you provided shows evidence that it meets the creation AP justifications. You have to be able to show that their attacks use or consume more energy than it takes to stabilize the realm for this to be AP useable.

 

[Arceus0x]

None of that is meeting the requirements spelled out in both pages:

• In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.
• Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats

Nothing you provided shows evidence that it meets the creation AP justifications. You have to be able to show that their attacks use or consume more energy than it takes to stabilize the realm for this to be AP useable.

At this point I'll leave it to the supporters since I ain't a big one and I am studying for an exam.

 

[ScoutManeater]

None of that is meeting the requirements spelled out in both pages:

• In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. Often that is due to a common energy system, in which the same energy used for creation is used for attacks. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction.
• Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats

Nothing you provided shows evidence that it meets the creation AP justifications. You have to be able to show that their attacks use or consume more energy than it takes to stabilize the realm for this to be AP useable.

Im here to cite you towards the deltarune page it is said that the titan is the fountain itself There is a bunch of examples of dark fountains being stated as cities such has here, and here. Aswell as being straight up shown to be such as here There are more examples and clearer arguements on the Titan page itself Creating a titan relies on the creation of a dark fountain aswell as stated to be a result when a dark fountain has gotten too strong. again this is just some of the points shown on the actual titan page put together to hopefully sway you and there might be more arguements that can be given besides it just being from me

(Should also be noted with a calculation it creates this much energy by existing but that might be what we are discussing right now)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Im here to cite you towards the deltarune page it is said that the titan is the fountain itself There is a bunch of examples of dark fountains being stated as cities such has here, and here. Aswell as being straight up shown to be such as here There are more examples and clearer arguements on the Titan page itself Creating a titan relies on the creation of a dark fountain aswell as stated to be a result when a dark fountain has gotten too strong. again this is just some of the points shown on the actual titan page put together to hopefully sway you and there might be more arguements that can be given besides it just being from me

Once again, all you're showing is that the Titan and the Fountain are one. You are not showing that the Titan's use more energy attacking than they do in sustaining the realm. That second part is what actually matters, not the first.

 

[Arceus0x]

Once again, all you're showing is that the Titan and the Fountain are one. You are not showing that the Titan's use more energy attacking than they do in sustaining the realm. That second part is what actually matters, not the first.

Again, I am just adding stuff but Titans appearing would directly threaten the real world and envelop the land in devastation as per the legend

They will eventually be responsible for wiping out everything

 

[ScoutManeater]

Once again, all you're showing is that the Titan and the Fountain are one. You are not showing that the Titan's use more energy attacking than they do in sustaining the realm. That second part is what actually matters, not the first.

Alright well in game text says that the darkness constricts you upon fighting the Titan, The darkness gives a long gaze which slithers like a snake which is right before the snake like attack, the darkness flows the swarm is coming which is again before a swarm. Pratically all attacks have some mention of darkness which supports the Titan using darkness in turn the fountains as attacks. Strongly supporting that the Titan is not only made out of the fountain but also uses it offensively.

 

[Arceus0x]

There's also Gerson's and Susie's attack breaking through the Titan's shield which takes a while for it to regenerate, meaning it requires a fair amount of power as well

 

[Qawsedf234]

Alright well in game text says that the darkness constricts you upon fighting the Titan, The darkness gives a long gaze which slithers like a snake which is right before the snake like attack, the darkness flows the swarm is coming which is again before a swarm. Pratically all attacks have some mention of darkness which supports the Titan using darkness in turn the fountains as attacks. Strongly supporting that the Titan is not only made out of the fountain but also uses it offensively.

Again, what you're posting does not meet our stated requirement here:

For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat.

You have to show that an attack from a Titan would use the same or greater energy than it takes to sustain the world. What you're giving does not meet those requirements.

 

[Randomuser3412]

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say a being whose only purpose is destruction, and is created from an especially powerful fountain firing dozens of blasts of darkness then absorbing all those into a massive laser in an act of pure desperation isn't using the power a normal, weaker fountain creates just by existing.

 

[LittleGuy99]

I would wait to see what Strym says

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think it's pretty disingenuous to say a being whose only purpose is destruction, and is created from an especially powerful fountain firing dozens of blasts of darkness then absorbing all those into a massive laser in an act of pure desperation isn't using the power a normal, weaker fountain creates just by existing.

Nothing presented up until this comment has tied Attack Power to energy usage. Just being made of something isn't enough, you have to show you can wield it in proper magnitudes. It's similar to the FAQ rule:

Q: What is the Tier for possessing Infinite Power or Infinite Strength?​

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story. Further, the hyperbolic nature of the phrase must be taken into consideration, where characters are prone to describing someone's power as infinite in a context where it is so great as to be insurmountable from their perspective, but not truly infinite in a manner relevant to their tier. If proven, however, statements of infinite strength would qualify for High 3-A or higher if evidence regarding a higher degree of infinity above baseline is established.

Having a power source or being powered by something isn't important for the rating. You have to show evidence that they can wield that power in attacks of equal or superior magnitude. Firing a laser by itself isn't enough, you need to explain why that laser used more energy than it takes to sustain or create the Dark World they're in.

 

[Arkenis]

Again, I am just adding stuff but Titans appearing would directly threaten the real world and envelop the land in devastation as per the legend

They will eventually be responsible for wiping out everything

It says that but then says the "surviving darkners crushed by the darkness". So is this meaning a literal wave of darkness does the devastation or is this meant in a poetic way like the darkness itself is the devastation cuz it got rid of light? If its literal that could be calced.

 

[Randomuser3412]

Having a power source or being powered by something isn't important for the rating.

Even in your example, it's half the reason a character would get the rating.

You have to show evidence that they can wield that power in attacks of equal or superior magnitude. Firing a laser by itself isn't enough, you need to explain why that laser used more energy than it takes to sustain or create the Dark World they're in.

This is the power a weaker Fountain automatically generates just by being a Fountain. We see the inside of the titan; there's no large Dark World inside of it. It's obviously being insinuated that the (stronger) Fountain's power is instead going purely into the Titan's being and attacks rather than what it usually does. I simply don't understand how you can say the attack the Titan charges up a significant amount using a source stronger than one that generates city levels of power with no other outlet for this power and no reason to hold it back wouldn't be stronger than the base power a Fountain always generates.

Essentially, the point is that the Fountain isn't just a battery the Titan is plugged into, right? It's always generating this much power by stabilizing the Dark Worlds regularly. There's no other outlet for this power since the Titan isn't generating a massive Dark World inside of it. I don't see a reason behind it not being able to use the full power of ITSELF.

 

[Metalballrun]

It's a bit of both. Darkners will turn into stone if they're placed in a Dark World they're not native in except for Ralsei's suspicious pure darkness World.
So the Roaring being multiple different darknesses from different fountains can be "crushing" but not necessarily an AP-applicable thing, as the Darkners are not literally crushed but are petrified whilst the Lightners are perfectly fine, just lost in the dark (until a Titan tries to off them ig).