Deltarune Downgrade (Chapter 1 Top Tiers, Base Spamton) + Some Clean Up

[ShockingPsychic]

Scaling Issues

Recently, Deltarune had some changes to its Chapter 1 top tiers, scaling them to enemies from Chapter 2. This was done after, allegedly, Spamton was confirmed to have lost a battle against Jevil, thus meaning that Jevil > Base Spamton. I have some issues with how this was treated, and don't think this upgrade makes much sense. Below, I'll go over what the evidence is, and what I wish to propose.

First thing to tackle is the issue of Jevil beating Spamton in a battle. While I can see how someone would have thought this, I do not believe this to be the case. Let's take a look at some dialogue;

When Kris asks Spamton "About You", he replies with this;

• I USED TO BE NOTHING BUT THE E_MAIL GUY, NOW I'M THE [[It Burns! Ow! Stop! Help Me! It Burns!]] GUY!
• [[Amazed at thi5 amazing transformation? You too can]] HAVE A [[Communion]] WITH [[Unintelligble Laughter]]
• SOON I'LL EVEN SURPASS THAT DAMNED [[Clown Around Town!]]
• BUT UNLIKE HIM I'M GONNA [[Shoot For the Sky!]] AND GET ON THE PATH TO ...
• [[The Big One]]
• I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO.
• [[Hyperlink blocked.]]

This implies that Spamton is inferior to Jevil, given he wishes to "surpass" him. However, what context makes so crystal clear, is that Jevil is superior in fame/freedom, two things that Spamton values. The use of phrases such as "shoot for the sky" combined with his speech about his transformation (which isn't in reference to his NEO form, as he hasn't had it yet), don't imply that Jevil is superior in anything specific. However, "The Big One" is referring to Spamton's NEO Form, as evidenced by this speech, given when Spamton first reaches NEO;

• HOLY [[Cungadero]] DO I FEEL GOOD ...
• HERE I AM!! KRIS!!
• BIG
• BIG,
• [[BIGGER AND BETTER THAN EVER]]
• HA HA HA ... THIS POWER IS
• FREEDOM.
• I WON'T HAVE TO BE | JUST A PUPPET | ANY MORE!!!!
• ...
• OR... so... I... thought.
• WHAT ARE THESE STRINGS!? | WHY AM I NOT [BIG] ENOUGH!? | It's still DARK... SO DARK!
• KRIS.

With a reoccurring theme of Freedom=Big, it seems obvious to me that this is what Spamton was referring to. He wasn't "bigger" than Jevil, meaning he wasn't as free. Of course, this is just what's in the game itself. For Undertale's anniversary, and Chapter 2's first anniversary, Toby Fox and the team at Fangamer did a $PAMTON $WEEPSTAKES, which included a QnA with the man himself, Spamton. Here, we got details regarding his relationship with Jevil, however things are still pretty vague, too vague to use for scaling purposes. The new information is as follows;

Spamton's full quote is, upon being shown a picture of Jevil:

• "DON'T SHOW ME THIS [fool] IN [clown's clothing]!!! ALL HE THINKS ABOUT IS [Games, Games, Games] WHILE I'M OUT HERE [Busting my @$$] INTO A [Sc3nt3d Candell]!!! EVEN IF I [Cheated] [(theoretically)] I NEVER [You're Winner] EVEN ONCE!!! ($#&*] HIM AND [$#&* the ketchup kids]!!!"

While written in Spamton's trademark unhinged speech, we can quite easily decipher what this actually says.

• "All he thinks about are games, games, games, while I'm out here busting my ass into a scented candle! Even if I cheated, theoretically, I never won, not even once!"

This line implies that Spamton has played some of Jevil's games (plural, important for later), and always lost, even if he cheated. In the last thread, this was used to definitively prove that Jevil had beaten Spamton in a battle, under the assumption that the game being played was Jevil's "Numbers Game".

• OH, IT'S JUST A SIMPLE NUMBERS GAME. WHEN YOUR HP DROPS TO 0, YOU LOSE!
  • [Susie] So that's the kinda game you wanna play, huh...? Then, I gotta warn you... You're dealing with a couple of sharks.

While it is true that one of Jevil's so-called "games" is a battle, we know he had multiple games, so why are we assuming he fought Spamton?

Here's something Seam says;

• "Soon, he began to see the world as a game, and everyone as its participants."

and;

• "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing games with him."

Obviously, Jevil has more than one game and uses this term for many, many things outside of battles. If the only game that Jevil played was his "Numbers Game" (which is the battle), then shouldn't Seam had said "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing that game with him."? No, because Jevil has more than one game, which fits in perfectly with his status as an ex-court jester. There's also this, once more from Seam;

• He... was a funny little man. Once, the court jester. I, the court magician.
• A friend...? Could I consider him a friend...? Perhaps, perhaps not.
• But he was the only one who matched me in the games we used to play.
• One day, he met a strange someone... and since then, he began to change.

Even before his descent into madness, Jevil would play games (plural), and if Seam is to be believed, he was really good at them. This explains why Spamton couldn't beat him, even if he cheated.

As this was a point in the upgrade thread, I also wish to cover this, taken from the Spamton QnA, responding to if Spamton liked cats.

• YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT [Cats]!? WHAT AM I, YOUR [favorite search engine]!? FINE, I'LL GIVE YOU SOME [Free tool tips and funny animations!] HAVEN'T YOU HEARD OF [Elemental pairs]!? WITH AN [Valuable item], YOU CAN DEFEND AGAINST [Puppet/Cat], OR [Thunder/Light], [Dark/Star]... JUST WATCH OUT FOR THE [$#&*] THAT USE [Death/Scythe]!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!!

Spamton warns the user to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, going on to say "never again", implying he has had experience with a person who has used such attacks. While hidden away for the most part, Deltarune does indeed have an element system, viewable in-game on the Recruit Menu. Tasque Manager is Cat/Order, Tasques are Cat/Elec, Swatchlings are Color, etc.

What's interesting is that, while secret bosses are not able to be recruited, Jevil has an unused Recruit screen stating his element to be Chaos/Chaos, as opposed to Tasque Manager (Who's element is Order), his counterpart, whom he also has history with. However, Jevil's Recruit screen is unused, and is therefore only supporting evidence.

• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly Devilsknife! [Devilsknife equipped]
• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly tail! [Jevilstail equipped]

Tasque Manager is also aware of Jevil, much like Spamton.

Otherwise, it seems like Spamton is referring to Jevil, but this still doesn't mean that the two ever fought. He says to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, and that he has history with someone who uses them.

With this cleared up, my suggestion is simple, reverse the scaling between Jevil (and other Chapter 1 top tiers) and Base Spamton (and other Chapter 2 bottom tiers), as the evidence used to say they have fought is vague and rather flimsy. If a compromise is needed, perhaps add a "possibly" rating, acknowledging that, while vague, it could be considered a possibility.

7-B with Creation

The Lightners has differing ratings for this. Kris, Susie, and Berdly have "likely 7-B with creation", while Noelle has "possibly 7-B with Creation". This needs fixed, likely with just changing Noelle's "possibly" to a likely. Berdly also needs this in his Light World key, as the others do.

Though, we know all Lightners possess this power, so why is is "likely" anyway? I'd suggest making removing the possibly rating, as it seems pretty clear that Cyber City is an average Dark World.

Kris (Light World): Athletic Human reaction speed
Kris effortlessly caught an apple being "launched" at them by Susie, who has "Athletic Human, possibly higher" LS. Seems worthy of an upgrade. Noelle's blog reads as follows:

• WHATEVER it was, Susie must have thought she was getting made fun of, because she immediately just LAUNCHED the apple right at kris.
  
  But, Kris, with their gamer reaction speed X) Held up their notebook like a shield and blocked it diagonally, bouncing it into the air...
  
  And actually CAUGHT the apple.
  
  ...
  
  Then took a bite out of it.

Annoying Dog: Unknown becomes 9-B
Annoying Dog, without his car, creates and tanks an explosion identical to Lancer's, which was calced.

Some minor clean-up things

Kris (Light World): Multiple Selves, Social Influencing, and limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to their Light World key. They have the SOUL within them in the Light World, they shouldn't be any less charismatic (unless their ACTs are a power only granted by the Dark World), and they can enter Dark Worlds from within the Light World.

Kris (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to this key, as they were able to access their inventory there as well.

Susie (Light World): Limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to her Light World key for the same reasons as Kris

Susie (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to Chapter 1

Berdly (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

Noelle (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

To-Do List

• Remove scaling between Jevil and Base Spamton, alternatively, add a "Possibly" rating.
• Add 7-B with Creation to Berdly's Light World key.
• Remove the "Possibly/Likely" rating from 7-B with Creation, alternatively, change Noelle's "Possibly" to "Likely"
• Kris: Athletic Human reactions
• Annoying Dog: 9-B physically
• Apply minor changes to Kris, Susie, Noelle, and Berdly

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Terrible thread.

Scaling Issues

Recently, Deltarune had some changes to its Chapter 1 top tiers, scaling them to enemies from Chapter 2. This was done after, allegedly, Spamton was confirmed to have lost a battle against Jevil, thus meaning that Jevil > Base Spamton. I have some issues with how this was treated, and don't think this upgrade makes much sense. Below, I'll go over what the evidence is, and what I wish to propose.

First thing to tackle is the issue of Jevil beating Spamton in a battle. While I can see how someone would have thought this, I do not believe this to be the case. Let's take a look at some dialogue;

When Kris asks Spamton "About You", he replies with this;

• I USED TO BE NOTHING BUT THE E_MAIL GUY, NOW I'M THE [[It Burns! Ow! Stop! Help Me! It Burns!]] GUY!
• [[Amazed at thi5 amazing transformation? You too can]] HAVE A [[Communion]] WITH [[Unintelligble Laughter]]
• SOON I'LL EVEN SURPASS THAT DAMNED [[Clown Around Town!]]
• BUT UNLIKE HIM I'M GONNA [[Shoot For the Sky!]] AND GET ON THE PATH TO ...
• [[The Big One]]
• I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO.
• [[Hyperlink blocked.]]

This implies that Spamton is inferior to Jevil, given he wishes to "surpass" him. However, what context makes so crystal clear, is that Jevil is superior in fame/freedom, two things that Spamton values. The use of phrases such as "shoot for the sky" combined with his speech about his transformation (which isn't in reference to his NEO form, as he hasn't had it yet), don't imply that Jevil is superior in anything specific. However, "The Big One" is referring to Spamton's NEO Form, as evidenced by this speech, given when Spamton first reaches NEO;

• HOLY [[Cungadero]] DO I FEEL GOOD ...
• HERE I AM!! KRIS!!
• BIG
• BIG,
• [[BIGGER AND BETTER THAN EVER]]
• HA HA HA ... THIS POWER IS
• FREEDOM.
• I WON'T HAVE TO BE | JUST A PUPPET | ANY MORE!!!!
• ...
• OR... so... I... thought.
• WHAT ARE THESE STRINGS!? | WHY AM I NOT [BIG] ENOUGH!? | It's still DARK... SO DARK!
• KRIS.

With a reoccurring theme of Freedom=Big, it seems obvious to me that this is what Spamton was referring to. He wasn't "bigger" than Jevil, meaning he wasn't as free. Of course, this is just what's in the game itself. For Undertale's anniversary, and Chapter 2's first anniversary, Toby Fox and the team at Fangamer did a $PAMTON $WEEPSTAKES, which included a QnA with the man himself, Spamton. Here, we got details regarding his relationship with Jevil, however things are still pretty vague, too vague to use for scaling purposes. The new information is as follows;

Spamton's full quote is, upon being shown a picture of Jevil:

• "DON'T SHOW ME THIS [fool] IN [clown's clothing]!!! ALL HE THINKS ABOUT IS [Games, Games, Games] WHILE I'M OUT HERE [Busting my @$$] INTO A [Sc3nt3d Candell]!!! EVEN IF I [Cheated] [(theoretically)] I NEVER [You're Winner] EVEN ONCE!!! ($#&*] HIM AND [$#&* the ketchup kids]!!!"

While written in Spamton's trademark unhinged speech, we can quite easily decipher what this actually says.

• "All he thinks about are games, games, games, while I'm out here busting my ass into a scented candle! Even if I cheated, theoretically, I never won, not even once!"

This line implies that Spamton has played some of Jevil's games (plural, important for later), and always lost, even if he cheated. In the last thread, this was used to definitively prove that Jevil had beaten Spamton in a battle, under the assumption that the game being played was Jevil's "Numbers Game".

• OH, IT'S JUST A SIMPLE NUMBERS GAME. WHEN YOUR HP DROPS TO 0, YOU LOSE!
  • [Susie] So that's the kinda game you wanna play, huh...? Then, I gotta warn you... You're dealing with a couple of sharks.

While it is true that one of Jevil's so-called "games" is a battle, we know he had multiple games, so why are we assuming he fought Spamton?

Here's something Seam says;

• "Soon, he began to see the world as a game, and everyone as its participants."

and;

• "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing games with him."

Obviously, Jevil has more than one game and uses this term for many, many things outside of battles. If the only game that Jevil played was his "Numbers Game" (which is the battle), then shouldn't Seam had said "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing that game with him."? No, because Jevil has more than one game, which fits in perfectly with his status as an ex-court jester. There's also this, once more from Seam;

• He... was a funny little man. Once, the court jester. I, the court magician.
• A friend...? Could I consider him a friend...? Perhaps, perhaps not.
• But he was the only one who matched me in the games we used to play.
• One day, he met a strange someone... and since then, he began to change.

Even before his descent into madness, Jevil would play games (plural), and if Seam is to be believed, he was really good at them. This explains why Spamton couldn't beat him, even if he cheated.

As this was a point in the upgrade thread, I also wish to cover this, taken from the Spamton QnA, responding to if Spamton liked cats.

• YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT [Cats]!? WHAT AM I, YOUR [favorite search engine]!? FINE, I'LL GIVE YOU SOME [Free tool tips and funny animations!] HAVEN'T YOU HEARD OF [Elemental pairs]!? WITH AN [Valuable item], YOU CAN DEFEND AGAINST [Puppet/Cat], OR [Thunder/Light], [Dark/Star]... JUST WATCH OUT FOR THE [$#&*] THAT USE [Death/Scythe]!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!!

Spamton warns the user to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, going on to say "never again", implying he has had experience with a person who has used such attacks. While hidden away for the most part, Deltarune does indeed have an element system, viewable in-game on the Recruit Menu. Tasque Manager is Cat/Order, Tasques are Cat/Elec, Swatchlings are Color, etc.

What's interesting is that, while secret bosses are not able to be recruited, Jevil has an unused Recruit screen stating his element to be Chaos/Chaos, as opposed to Tasque Manager (Who's element is Order), his counterpart, whom he also has history with. However, Jevil's Recruit screen is unused, and is therefore only supporting evidence.

• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly Devilsknife! [Devilsknife equipped]
• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly tail! [Jevilstail equipped]

Tasque Manager is also aware of Jevil, much like Spamton.

Otherwise, it seems like Spamton is referring to Jevil, but this still doesn't mean that the two ever fought. He says to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, and that he has history with someone who uses them.

With this cleared up, my suggestion is simple, reverse the scaling between Jevil (and other Chapter 1 top tiers) and Base Spamton (and other Chapter 2 bottom tiers), as the evidence used to say they have fought is vague and rather flimsy. If a compromise is needed, perhaps add a "possibly" rating, acknowledging that, while vague, it could be considered a possibility.

No. First off, the freedom argument is completely headcanon. The fact he considers Jevil to be free doesn't even make sense, freedom is "seeing past the Dark", and Spamton wants to "be a real boy" (likely referring to going to the Light World). Jevil has neither of that. Second, the compiled evidence gives us a supported context for that line.

You quite literally admit that Spamton is likely referring to Jevil when talking about death and scythes, and the never again tells us that Spamton is scared of Scythes and "Death" (which in Spamton's speech might refer to defeat). You never counter the line, you just disconsidered it because it's inconvenient to your argument. This on top of Spamton stating that he played games with Jevil (plural, he might have played one non-fight game, and the number game), is perfectly reasonable to say Jevil defeated Spamton.

So,

"Why do we assume "surpass" is in strength?"

Might be more than one aspect, or all aspects of Jevil, but it includes strength because Spamton heavily implied he fought Jevil with the scythe and game lines. Both evidences support the interpretation.

"Why do we assume "games" was the numbers game (fight)?"

It's more than one game. One of them was the number game.

It's the literal first and only game we see Jevil propose to the Fun Gang.
Spamton references Jevil when talking about fighting elements, and he said "never again" when talked about Jevil's scythe. He has fear of his scythe, after saying he played games with him, which we know includes fighting. You're being ignorant on purpose.

"Why do we assume "Death/Scythe" is fighting"
Because Spamton played games with Jevil which includes fighting.
Because Jevil uses a scythe in his fight.
Because Spamton demonstrates fear of scythes.


We will not be downgrading the top tiers based on this faulty poorly executed debunk.

7-B with Creation

The Lightners has differing ratings for this. Kris, Susie, and Berdly have "likely 7-B with creation", while Noelle has "possibly 7-B with Creation". This needs fixed, likely with just changing Noelle's "possibly" to a likely. Berdly also needs this in his Light World key, as the others do.

Okay.

Though, we know all Lightners possess this power, so why is is "likely" anyway? I'd suggest making removing the possibly rating, as it seems pretty clear that Cyber City is an average Dark World.

"It seems pre-",
It doesn't, we have no information on how DW are structured. It's likely because we do not know if they can make Dark Worlds on the same scale as the Knight. The fact they can is not likely, it's on their P&A section as full-on haxes.

Kris (Light World): Athletic Human reaction speed
Kris effortlessly caught an apple being "launched" at them by Susie, who has "Athletic Human, possibly higher" LS. Seems worthy of an upgrade. Noelle's blog reads as follows:

• WHATEVER it was, Susie must have thought she was getting made fun of, because she immediately just LAUNCHED the apple right at kris.
  
  But, Kris, with their gamer reaction speed X) Held up their notebook like a shield and blocked it diagonally, bouncing it into the air...
  
  And actually CAUGHT the apple.
  
  ...
  
  Then took a bite out of it.

We aren't upgrading a character based on something throwing an apple. Don't be ridiculous. Also, what's your basis to say it's athletic human reactions? Susie's LS has nothing to do with it.

We don't know how much strength Susie used, we don't know the distance, we don't know how much of their arm they moved. I can block something throwing an apple at me IRL

Annoying Dog: Unknown becomes 9-B
Annoying Dog, without his car, creates and tanks an explosion identical to Lancer's, which was calced.

No, he is clearly much stronger and this rating is likely going to be undermining the intended power of the Dog. Keep it unknown.

Some minor clean-up things

Kris (Light World): Multiple Selves, Social Influencing, and limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to their Light World key. They have the SOUL within them in the Light World, they shouldn't be any less charismatic (unless their ACTs are a power only granted by the Dark World), and they can enter Dark Worlds from within the Light World.

Yes.

Kris (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to this key, as they were able to access their inventory there as well.

Yes.

Susie (Light World): Limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to her Light World key for the same reasons as Kris

Yes.

Susie (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to Chapter 1

Yes.

Berdly (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

Yes.

Noelle (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

Yes.

To-Do List

• Remove scaling between Jevil and Base Spamton, alternatively, add a "Possibly" rating.
• Add 7-B with Creation to Berdly's Light World key.
• Remove the "Possibly/Likely" rating from 7-B with Creation, alternatively, change Noelle's "Possibly" to "Likely"
• Kris: Athletic Human reactions
• Annoying Dog: 9-B physically
• Apply minor changes to Kris, Susie, Noelle, and Berdly

What a terrible thread overall.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

No need to be rude, even if you disagree.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

No, he is clearly much stronger and this rating is likely going to be undermining the intended power of the Dog. Keep it unknown.

actually I'd say he should be physically 9-A and supersonic, since he's able to push the table fast enough to launch run over swatches and make them run away in fear
anyways time to read through the OP

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Scaling Issues

Recently, Deltarune had some changes to its Chapter 1 top tiers, scaling them to enemies from Chapter 2. This was done after, allegedly, Spamton was confirmed to have lost a battle against Jevil, thus meaning that Jevil > Base Spamton. I have some issues with how this was treated, and don't think this upgrade makes much sense. Below, I'll go over what the evidence is, and what I wish to propose.

First thing to tackle is the issue of Jevil beating Spamton in a battle. While I can see how someone would have thought this, I do not believe this to be the case. Let's take a look at some dialogue;

When Kris asks Spamton "About You", he replies with this;

• I USED TO BE NOTHING BUT THE E_MAIL GUY, NOW I'M THE [[It Burns! Ow! Stop! Help Me! It Burns!]] GUY!
• [[Amazed at thi5 amazing transformation? You too can]] HAVE A [[Communion]] WITH [[Unintelligble Laughter]]
• SOON I'LL EVEN SURPASS THAT DAMNED [[Clown Around Town!]]
• BUT UNLIKE HIM I'M GONNA [[Shoot For the Sky!]] AND GET ON THE PATH TO ...
• [[The Big One]]
• I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO. I'LL GET SO.
• [[Hyperlink blocked.]]

This implies that Spamton is inferior to Jevil, given he wishes to "surpass" him. However, what context makes so crystal clear, is that Jevil is superior in fame/freedom, two things that Spamton values. The use of phrases such as "shoot for the sky" combined with his speech about his transformation (which isn't in reference to his NEO form, as he hasn't had it yet), don't imply that Jevil is superior in anything specific. However, "The Big One" is referring to Spamton's NEO Form, as evidenced by this speech, given when Spamton first reaches NEO;

• HOLY [[Cungadero]] DO I FEEL GOOD ...
• HERE I AM!! KRIS!!
• BIG
• BIG,
• [[BIGGER AND BETTER THAN EVER]]
• HA HA HA ... THIS POWER IS
• FREEDOM.
• I WON'T HAVE TO BE | JUST A PUPPET | ANY MORE!!!!
• ...
• OR... so... I... thought.
• WHAT ARE THESE STRINGS!? | WHY AM I NOT [BIG] ENOUGH!? | It's still DARK... SO DARK!
• KRIS.

With a reoccurring theme of Freedom=Big, it seems obvious to me that this is what Spamton was referring to. He wasn't "bigger" than Jevil, meaning he wasn't as free. Of course, this is just what's in the game itself. For Undertale's anniversary, and Chapter 2's first anniversary, Toby Fox and the team at Fangamer did a $PAMTON $WEEPSTAKES, which included a QnA with the man himself, Spamton. Here, we got details regarding his relationship with Jevil, however things are still pretty vague, too vague to use for scaling purposes. The new information is as follows;

Spamton's full quote is, upon being shown a picture of Jevil:

• "DON'T SHOW ME THIS [fool] IN [clown's clothing]!!! ALL HE THINKS ABOUT IS [Games, Games, Games] WHILE I'M OUT HERE [Busting my @$$] INTO A [Sc3nt3d Candell]!!! EVEN IF I [Cheated] [(theoretically)] I NEVER [You're Winner] EVEN ONCE!!! ($#&*] HIM AND [$#&* the ketchup kids]!!!"

While written in Spamton's trademark unhinged speech, we can quite easily decipher what this actually says.

• "All he thinks about are games, games, games, while I'm out here busting my ass into a scented candle! Even if I cheated, theoretically, I never won, not even once!"

This line implies that Spamton has played some of Jevil's games (plural, important for later), and always lost, even if he cheated. In the last thread, this was used to definitively prove that Jevil had beaten Spamton in a battle, under the assumption that the game being played was Jevil's "Numbers Game".

• OH, IT'S JUST A SIMPLE NUMBERS GAME. WHEN YOUR HP DROPS TO 0, YOU LOSE!
  • [Susie] So that's the kinda game you wanna play, huh...? Then, I gotta warn you... You're dealing with a couple of sharks.

While it is true that one of Jevil's so-called "games" is a battle, we know he had multiple games, so why are we assuming he fought Spamton?

Here's something Seam says;

• "Soon, he began to see the world as a game, and everyone as its participants."

and;

• "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing games with him."

Obviously, Jevil has more than one game and uses this term for many, many things outside of battles. If the only game that Jevil played was his "Numbers Game" (which is the battle), then shouldn't Seam had said "Reflecting on these old memories, I think, perhaps - I miss playing that game with him."? No, because Jevil has more than one game, which fits in perfectly with his status as an ex-court jester. There's also this, once more from Seam;

• He... was a funny little man. Once, the court jester. I, the court magician.
• A friend...? Could I consider him a friend...? Perhaps, perhaps not.
• But he was the only one who matched me in the games we used to play.
• One day, he met a strange someone... and since then, he began to change.

Even before his descent into madness, Jevil would play games (plural), and if Seam is to be believed, he was really good at them. This explains why Spamton couldn't beat him, even if he cheated.

As this was a point in the upgrade thread, I also wish to cover this, taken from the Spamton QnA, responding to if Spamton liked cats.

• YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT [Cats]!? WHAT AM I, YOUR [favorite search engine]!? FINE, I'LL GIVE YOU SOME [Free tool tips and funny animations!] HAVEN'T YOU HEARD OF [Elemental pairs]!? WITH AN [Valuable item], YOU CAN DEFEND AGAINST [Puppet/Cat], OR [Thunder/Light], [Dark/Star]... JUST WATCH OUT FOR THE [$#&*] THAT USE [Death/Scythe]!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!!

Spamton warns the user to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, going on to say "never again", implying he has had experience with a person who has used such attacks. While hidden away for the most part, Deltarune does indeed have an element system, viewable in-game on the Recruit Menu. Tasque Manager is Cat/Order, Tasques are Cat/Elec, Swatchlings are Color, etc.

What's interesting is that, while secret bosses are not able to be recruited, Jevil has an unused Recruit screen stating his element to be Chaos/Chaos, as opposed to Tasque Manager (Who's element is Order), his counterpart, whom he also has history with. However, Jevil's Recruit screen is unused, and is therefore only supporting evidence.

• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly Devilsknife! [Devilsknife equipped]
• Chaos, chaos!? No, no! Order, order! Now get rid of that silly tail! [Jevilstail equipped]

Tasque Manager is also aware of Jevil, much like Spamton.

Otherwise, it seems like Spamton is referring to Jevil, but this still doesn't mean that the two ever fought. He says to watch out for people who use Death/Scythe attacks, and that he has history with someone who uses them.

With this cleared up, my suggestion is simple, reverse the scaling between Jevil (and other Chapter 1 top tiers) and Base Spamton (and other Chapter 2 bottom tiers), as the evidence used to say they have fought is vague and rather flimsy. If a compromise is needed, perhaps add a "possibly" rating, acknowledging that, while vague, it could be considered a possibility.

7-B with Creation

The Lightners has differing ratings for this. Kris, Susie, and Berdly have "likely 7-B with creation", while Noelle has "possibly 7-B with Creation". This needs fixed, likely with just changing Noelle's "possibly" to a likely. Berdly also needs this in his Light World key, as the others do.

Though, we know all Lightners possess this power, so why is is "likely" anyway? I'd suggest making removing the possibly rating, as it seems pretty clear that Cyber City is an average Dark World.

Kris (Light World): Athletic Human reaction speed
Kris effortlessly caught an apple being "launched" at them by Susie, who has "Athletic Human, possibly higher" LS. Seems worthy of an upgrade. Noelle's blog reads as follows:

• WHATEVER it was, Susie must have thought she was getting made fun of, because she immediately just LAUNCHED the apple right at kris.
  
  But, Kris, with their gamer reaction speed X) Held up their notebook like a shield and blocked it diagonally, bouncing it into the air...
  
  And actually CAUGHT the apple.
  
  ...
  
  Then took a bite out of it.

Annoying Dog: Unknown becomes 9-B
Annoying Dog, without his car, creates and tanks an explosion identical to Lancer's, which was calced.

Some minor clean-up things

Kris (Light World): Multiple Selves, Social Influencing, and limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to their Light World key. They have the SOUL within them in the Light World, they shouldn't be any less charismatic (unless their ACTs are a power only granted by the Dark World), and they can enter Dark Worlds from within the Light World.

Kris (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to this key, as they were able to access their inventory there as well.

Susie (Light World): Limited Dimensional Travel should be moved to her Light World key for the same reasons as Kris

Susie (Chapter 1): Dimensional Storage should be moved to Chapter 1

Berdly (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

Noelle (Light World): Needs Limited Dimensional Travel

To-Do List

• Remove scaling between Jevil and Base Spamton, alternatively, add a "Possibly" rating.
• Add 7-B with Creation to Berdly's Light World key.
• Remove the "Possibly/Likely" rating from 7-B with Creation, alternatively, change Noelle's "Possibly" to "Likely"
• Kris: Athletic Human reactions
• Annoying Dog: 9-B physically
• Apply minor changes to Kris, Susie, Noelle, and Berdly

As for the 9-A jevil thing, the literal only scythe user we know of is the man himself, Jevil. And also it's implied that Seam has fought Jevil given that he is the man who locked him up to begin with, so Seam's games with Jevil could have easily been them sparring. It's not really evidence of anything.
As for the rest, it's all fine to me, although the apple feat should just be average human reactions, as while if Susie threw it directly AT kris then it would have been going fast enough to not fall straight down, but still that is something an average human can catch, we just know the apple wasn't going ridiculously slow. Kris is literally just an average human child in the light to begin with so, I think average human reactions makes sense here.

Terrible thread.


No. First off, the freedom argument is completely headcanon. The fact he considers Jevil to be free doesn't even make sense, freedom is "seeing past the Dark", and Spamton wants to "be a real boy" (likely referring to going to the Light World). Jevil has neither of that. Second, the compiled evidence gives us a supported context for that line.

You quite literally admit that Spamton is likely referring to Jevil when talking about death and scythes, and the never again tells us that Spamton is scared of Scythes and "Death" (which in Spamton's speech might refer to defeat). You never counter the line, you just disconsidered it because it's inconvenient to your argument. This on top of Spamton stating that he played games with Jevil (plural, he might have played one non-fight game, and the number game), is perfectly reasonable to say Jevil defeated Spamton.

So,

"Why do we assume "surpass" is in strength?"

Might be more than one aspect, or all aspects of Jevil, but it includes strength because Spamton heavily implied he fought Jevil with the scythe and game lines. Both evidences support the interpretation.

"Why do we assume "games" was the numbers game (fight)?"

It's more than one game. One of them was the number game.

It's the literal first and only game we see Jevil propose to the Fun Gang.
Spamton references Jevil when talking about fighting elements, and he said "never again" when talked about Jevil's scythe. He has fear of his scythe, after saying he played games with him, which we know includes fighting. You're being ignorant on purpose.

"Why do we assume "Death/Scythe" is fighting"
Because Spamton played games with Jevil which includes fighting.
Because Jevil uses a scythe in his fight.
Because Spamton demonstrates fear of scythes.


We will not be downgrading the top tiers based on this faulty poorly executed debunk.

Okay.

"It seems pre-",
It doesn't, we have no information on how DW are structured. It's likely because we do not know if they can make Dark Worlds on the same scale as the Knight. The fact they can is not likely, it's on their P&A section as full-on haxes.

We aren't upgrading a character based on something throwing an apple. Don't be ridiculous. Also, what's your basis to say it's athletic human reactions? Susie's LS has nothing to do with it.

We don't know how much strength Susie used, we don't know the distance, we don't know how much of their arm they moved. I can block something throwing an apple at me IRL

No, he is clearly much stronger and this rating is likely going to be undermining the intended power of the Dog. Keep it unknown.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

What a terrible thread overall.

and yes, stop being rude, end of story

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oh boo-*******-hoo, stop being crybabies over me calling a bad thread "terrible". I don't care.

The apple feat is even worse, because reading through Noelle's blog, Susie was on Alphys' table, Kris was on their seat, a good distance. Susie seemingly got angry, so Kris could just aim dodge or prepare to counter seeing her reaction. The feat might even be below human average tbh.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

actually I'd say he should be physically 9-A and supersonic, since he's able to push the table fast enough to launch run over swatches and make them run away in fear
anyways time to read through the OP

That's in no way his limit. Again, let's keep it unknown, it's likely appearing in all chapters for funnies. We don't want to keep changing it's rating.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

That's in no way his limit. Again, let's keep it unknown, it's likely appearing in all chapters for funnies. We don't want to keep changing it's rating.

This is actually just headcanon. We have no evidence of its power other than its feats, it's lucky it even has a profile lol
just cope with a 9-A rating for now.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is actually just headcanon. We have no evidence of its power other than its feats, it's lucky it even has a profile lol
just cope with a 9-A rating for now.

Oh the effortless gag feats with the several implications playing with the idea that the dog is the one fabricating all the chapters as self insert character of Toby that appears in literally all projects doing something goofy or absurd? Saying the consistent joke of the dog is going to stay consistent is headcanon, Ziller? Is it? Bozo.


He's keeping his Unknown rating because we're never seen him exerting himself and just in situations of gags and casual destruction. That's final buddy.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Oh the effortless gag feats with the several implications playing with the idea that the dog is the one fabricating all the chapters as self insert character of Toby that appears in literally all projects doing something goofy or absurd? Saying the consistent joke of the dog is going to stay consistent is headcanon, Ziller? Is it? Bozo.


He's keeping his Unknown rating because we're never seen him exerting himself and just in situations of gags and casual destruction. That's final buddy.

not sure you know how unknown profiles work, but if a character has feats, then they go on the profile, any speculation is just gonna be a "possibly higher" since it's possible that it's just a symbolism for toby, and isn't the literal 1-C creator of the world
now if you wanna make a thread to give it plot manipulation or something, go ahead, but as far as I'm concerned we have feats that put it significantly above the ch2 enemies already. You know we even gave ****** OPM god a profile, when he's probably gonna obsolete every feat, and nothing he's ever done is even combat applicable
basically what I'm saying is, this is not your decision to make. If he gets more feats then that'll be reflected on the profile, but we have no way of knowing if the gag dog is gonna be anywhere near this god level idea you have. That's final, buddy.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

not sure you know how unknown profiles work, but if a character has feats, then they go on the profile, any speculation is just gonna be a "possibly higher" since it's possible that it's just a symbolism for toby, and isn't the literal 1-C creator of the world
now if you wanna make a thread to give it plot manipulation or something, go ahead, but as far as I'm concerned we have feats that put it significantly above the ch2 enemies already. You know we even gave ****** OPM god a profile, when he's probably gonna obsolete every feat, and nothing he's ever done is even combat applicable
basically what I'm saying is, this is not your decision to make. If he gets more feats then that'll be reflected on the profile, but we have no way of knowing if the gag dog is gonna be anywhere near this god level idea you have.

"god level idea"? What are you even talking about? I'm saying "The dog has been a consistent self-insert character joke that often does goofy shit in literally all Undertale-related projects. It is going to appear in the next following chapters, and it's going to affect something like it has in the past (in the form of a gag)"

Whataboutism isn't allowed to be used as an argument. I don't give a flying shit about OPM God.

The Unknown rating can and will serve the purpose of expressing our undisputable ignorance of the Annoying Dog's true power. We haven't seen any hits of that. Indexing a limit to it based on feats it's done either on accident or by literally taking zero damage from something is saying that you know how strong it actually is.

The rating had served this very purpose in the past with Chara before we decided to interpret the Low 2-C feat as something they actually achieved themselves. It applies here.

He will appear in the following chapters with new gags. - That's a fact.
The scaling of the feats will be higher - That's a fact.
What he has shown was casual and accidental and doesn't represent his true power (because that's the joke) - That's a fact.

I ask you, who the hell told you how the "Unknown" tier works? There is no official page for the tier where it's purpose it's explained.

Luckily, I do have one official stance where the Unknown rating is used to a different purpose of what you've said.

"Hence, a higher-dimensional entity can be both stronger or weaker than a lower-dimensional one, and thus, they are usually quantified based on their own feats, instead of dimensionality alone. If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well."

Not trying to make a strawman, nor am I claiming Annoying Dog is higher dimensional. Read this properly.
This is in the Tiering System FAQ where one explains higher dimensional in existence isn't worth of an AP rating, and explains how "If a character hasn't shown any noteworthy feat, it's put at Unknown".
Which means, officially, the Unknown rating may be used if the feats the character has demonstrated are not noteworthy (relatively to them).

This applies to the Annoying Dog. His feats are done by accident and are not noteworthy to his full potential. We will keep the Unknown rating based on this fact alone. Your whining will not change this.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

"god level idea"? What are you even talking about? I'm saying "The dog has been a consistent self-insert character joke that often does goofy shit in literally all Undertale-related projects. It is going to appear in the next following chapters, and it's going to affect something like it has in the past (in the form of a gag)"

Whataboutism isn't allowed to be used as an argument. I don't give a flying shit about OPM God.

The Unknown rating can and will serve the purpose of expressing our undisputable ignorance of the Annoying Dog's true power. We haven't seen any hits of that. Indexing a limit to it based on feats it's done either on accident or by literally taking zero damage from something is saying that you know how strong it actually is.

The rating had served this very purpose in the past with Chara before we decided to interpret the Low 2-C feat as something they actually achieved themselves. It applies here.

He will appear in the following chapters with new gags. - That's a fact.
The scaling of the feats will be higher - That's a fact.
What he has shown was casual and accidental and doesn't represent his true power (because that's the joke) - That's a fact.

I ask you, who the hell told you how the "Unknown" tier works? There is no official page for the tier where it's purpose it's explained.

Luckily, I do have one official stance where the Unknown rating is used to a different purpose of what you've said.

"Hence, a higher-dimensional entity can be both stronger or weaker than a lower-dimensional one, and thus, they are usually quantified based on their own feats, instead of dimensionality alone. If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well."

Not trying to make a strawman, nor am I claiming Annoying Dog is higher dimensional. Read this properly.
This is in the Tiering System FAQ where one explains higher dimensional in existence isn't worth of an AP rating, and explains how "If a character hasn't shown any noteworthy feat, it's put at Unknown".
Which means, officially, the Unknown rating may be used if the feats the character has demonstrated are not noteworthy (relatively to them).

This applies to the Annoying Dog. His feats are done by accident and are not noteworthy to his full potential. We will keep the Unknown rating based on this fact alone. Your whining will not change this.

"that's a fact, this is a fact"
we haven't seen the new chapters, it's quite literally a lie to imply you even have the authority to make this claim. Just because something is very likely, doesn't mean it's a fact. We literally have a likely higher rating for this exact reason, and the annoying dog can get in line with the rest of these characters, especially considering its mysterious nature, as well as it already scaling above ch2 enemies. We "know" literally nothing about it, so you can drop the routine where you know the dog MUST be stronger. For all we know Toby Fox could just have it do the same ass explosion in a row for 7 chapters, put him in another dark world as an easter egg cameo, and that could be the end. The dog is not getting special treatment, he is going to get a 9-A rating, that's that.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

His feats are done by accident and are not noteworthy to his full potential.

I'd also like to point out that there is nothing accidental about bashing a child with a car 20 times (which by the way didn't one shot Kris). Idk where you even got this accidental part from.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'd also like to point out that there is nothing accidental about bashing a child with a car 20 times (which by the way didn't one shot Kris). Idk where you even got this accidental part from.

I'm talking about the swatling feats.

Also, the car =/= Annoying Dog

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"that's a fact, this is a fact"
we haven't seen the new chapters, it's quite literally a lie to imply you even have the authority to make this claim. Just because something is very likely, doesn't mean it's a fact. We literally have a likely higher rating for this exact reason, and the annoying dog can get in line with the rest of these characters, especially considering its mysterious nature, as well as it already scaling above ch2 enemies. We "know" literally nothing about it, so you can drop the routine where you know the dog MUST be stronger. For all we know Toby Fox could just have it do the same ass explosion in a row for 7 chapters, put him in another dark world as an easter egg cameo, and that could be the end. The dog is not getting special treatment, he is going to get a 9-A rating, that's that.

Wait for the full game to come out before indexing a gag character that's likely going to appear in all chapters to do some goof.

It shouldn't even have a profile first of all

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm talking about the swatling feats.

Also, the car =/= Annoying Dog

not sure how much of it is accidental vs how much is the player's control but whatever, anyways casual feat do not = unknown power, it just means scaling above something highly, which happens a lot here

Wait for the full game to come out before indexing a gag character that's likely going to appear in all chapters to do some goof.

It shouldn't even have a profile first of all

it definitely shouldn't have a profile yeah

 

[GodlyCharmander]

not sure how much of it is accidental vs how much is the player's control but whatever, anyways casual feat do not = unknown power, it just means scaling above something highly, which happens a lot here

it definitely shouldn't have a profile yeah

Great, can we agree on deleting his profile then?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I don't think it needs to be deleted. It has feats, and while a bit of a gag character, it's still an important character in the verse. It's the reason Kris and Susie were forced to go to the Computer Lab, and later helped them in the table room.

Just because we haven't seen the full extent of his power doesn't mean we shouldn't use the feats we do have. I mean, the game isn't all the way out yet, we haven't the full extent of anyone's power, really, besides maybe some of the one-off enemies like Rudin or Hathy.

 

[DivineAura44]

Oh boo-*******-hoo, stop being crybabies over me calling a bad thread "terrible". I don't care.

The apple feat is even worse, because reading through Noelle's blog, Susie was on Alphys' table, Kris was on their seat, a good distance. Susie seemingly got angry, so Kris could just aim dodge or prepare to counter seeing her reaction. The feat might even be below human average tbh.

Are you ok?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think it needs to be deleted. It has feats, and while a bit of a gag character, it's still an important character in the verse. It's the reason Kris and Susie were forced to go to the Computer Lab, and later helped them in the table room.

Just because we haven't seen the full extent of his power doesn't mean we shouldn't use the feats we do have. I mean, the game isn't all the way out yet, we haven't the full extent of anyone's power, really, besides maybe some of the one-off enemies like Rudin or Hathy.

We do. All chapter 1 character have shown their power.
The Fun Gang progresses in power, so we do see what they are capable of during the chapters in particular.

Whose character we don't know the full power of as of now? Except character we don't even know.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Imagine Jevil suddenly oneshotting 2-B character lmaooo

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Whose character we don't know the full power of as of now? Except character we don't even know.

Kris and Ralsei prob