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Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

Omegabronic said:
Being far... unless they legit are like, 9-B... wouldn't that contradict every calc for the verse? I literally couldn't care less about tier 4 Delta Warriors btw... Legit curious
Click to expand...
Wait until you realize 99% of the calcs of the verse rely on assuming the magic is literal, or in faulty Kinetic Energy.

8-B hammer swing, doesn't generate KE to destroy glass right next to it. And we accepted it
 
Randomuser3412 said:
I think the sun is supposed to be the Flower's doing, to be honest. It looks like it changes color from the Flower's power. Anyway, the clouds go behind the sun, so it's not real lol
Click to expand...
Cool, we can put the sun debate to rest now.

Omegabronic said:
Btw were y'all confused why the Manequin protect against Spamtom NEO Specifically and the Tasques?... Yeah... guess NEO body was Mad Dummy's... Aka.... Spamtom NEO is, now... CANNONICALLY A FURRY CATGIRL... do what you will with this info
Click to expand...
Spamton’s body is from Mettaton/Nobody. Elements come in pairs, and Cat is paired with Puppet which is why Spamton has those elements (that plus maybe his connection to Friend).
 
Randomuser3412 said:
Whose side are you even on, Ralsei? Chooses not to use his apparently busted fire magic on the Titan for some reason, but then uses it on a random shuriken that wouldn't have done anything. I can't stay mad at him, though.
Click to expand...
Theory... in the "Aborted" Weird Route... we will use him to do "Fireshock" and then... do what i wanted to do with Toriel in Chapter 3... Freezing isn't enough my fellas :devilish:
 

I'm not so sure; I think the fake stats actually carry some weight in combat. After all, Flowery seemed to think the attack would do something, and the Knight was bothered enough by it to "neutralize" the fake stats.

Sure, the Knight might have acted out of ego, but in that specific scene, the fake stats seemed to have some real impact. If it were just an illusion, it would have made more sense for Flowery to try to scare the Knight without actually attacking—which ended up confirming that the stats were a lie.

Perhaps the fake stats work by turning a lie into truth or a dream into reality, given that the battle seems to revolve around that theme.

At least, that’s my interpretation.
 
Omegabronic said:
Btw were y'all confused why the Manequin protect against Spamtom NEO Specifically and the Tasques?... Yeah... guess NEO body was Mad Dummy's... Aka.... Spamtom NEO is, now... CANNONICALLY A FURRY CATGIRL... do what you will with this info
Click to expand...
What? You're confusing characters, Neo body was drawn by Mettaton who wanted it, Maddie has nothing to do Neo
 
EnderLord8 said:
I'm not so sure; I think the fake stats actually carry some weight in combat. After all, Flowery seemed to think the attack would do something, and the Knight was bothered enough by it to "neutralize" the fake stats.
Click to expand...

This is the problem, people are acting like I'm saying the fake stats do 0 damage. No, his real strength is not low, he should be able to damage the knight, I'm just saying that it's not 100% accurate to what's on screen, otherwise, they wouldn't be fake.
 
Me whem the sun
images
 
GodlyCharmander said:
They're fake because he says his defense is 99 while taking SIGNIFICANT damage from us.
Click to expand...
The Titan Spawn have twice his DEF and we can kill them???
GodlyCharmander said:
They're fake because he claims to have 99 ATK but can't one shot us.
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It’s almost like it was a major plot point that he already understands that winning wouldn’t actually change much, since without anyone to take care of him in the Light World, he’d eventually wither away and die anyway. Or how they explicitly mention he hesitated during that final clash with Kris. Or how he doesn't even kill us.

**** we don't even if he used those fake stats in his fight at all.
GodlyCharmander said:
They're fake because that's the point of the character.
Click to expand...
As you said, EVERYTHING about him is fake, it's the point of his character. His PnA powers too, does that mean he shouldn't have any powers?
Why even give him a Profile, everything about him is an illusion, right?

Not to mention none of the above actually addresses my point.
Flowey tries to use them against an opponent and is genuinely shocked when they don’t work, which doesn’t make sense if they were just for show.

Ever heard of Sonic Forces? Infinite creates an army of clones to fight the heroes. These clones are called "illusions" despite clearly having real, physical effects on the world. Like I dunno what to tell you but verses treating "illusions" as functional constructs ain't exactly rare, GoW does it, Sonic does it, etc.
At least with DR, it actually makes sense given how fantasy and imagination driven Dark Worlds are.
GodlyCharmander said:
The issue is that you can't accurately depict my interpretation. My interpretation is that his fake statistics have some effect based on his actual, genuine strength, plus the intent to deceive the Knight into thinking he's stronger than he actually is.
Click to expand...
Your interpretation again has to overlook the fact that we know FOR A FACT that without the fake stats, the damage he deals to the Knight shows up as a string of 0s.

And I’m sorry, but no matter how you slice it, that either leaves your reading with at best a pretty far-fetched conclusion (He actually dealt 100+ damage to the Knight, but we see 000 cause, uhhhhhhh?) or just straight-up ignores stuff at worst.
GodlyCharmander said:
Oh wow, that's really not possible with the character ENTIRELY MADE ON THE PREMISE TO BE AN ILLUSION.
Click to expand...
Literally nothing about his character would change if it was just a form of Subjective Reality based on the Dark World being loosey goosey with its "rules."

Again with the popular example, Persona's Joker has a toy gun, and yet it acts like an actual gun in the Metaverse or whatever cause it looks like an actual one and the cognition that the Metaverse is built on makes it as strong as the opponent would perceive an actual gun. That's Subjective Reality.

And this lines up almost 1-to-1 with what Flowery tried to do to the Knight. He initially lands 999s of damage and appears to be harming them, but once the Knight breaks the illusion, it retroactively invalidates all the damage we visibly saw him inflict. Making it "fake."

Side note, you're being kinda mean, so, stop that.
 
Do you reckon we could give RK durability and AP bypass abilities?

Looking at the overall context of Flowery's meta crap, we see both him and Ralsei are aware of meta elements, and Flowery (and implicitly Ralsei) can manipulate these on a whim, from the menu to their own stats, so it seems to be a tangible thing The Knight can simply ignore
Ghengiroo115 said:
I’ve always hated how Deltarune nerfs fights in patches because they’re almost always not that bad and feel like they’re just babying the playerbase (even the Sword Tunnel wasn’t that bad and just didn’t convey its hitbox properly), however Maddie’s regular bombs are genuinely unfair and I really hope they get nerfed.
Click to expand...
BUT I LIKE THE HARD ATTACKS, GERSON WAS TOO EASY...
 
Faked, illusory stats should not be indexed as being in any way real of course. There's no argument against that. Flowery's 99 atk/def or 🌼 atk/def or whatever, plus the six other flowers, can be matched by Kris alone. It's nothing but a bluff. Being a happy illusion: that is, a dream, is what his entire character was.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
The Titan Spawn have twice his DEF and we can kill them???
Click to expand...
The titan spawn is a weird outlier, we do similar damage (and percentages of their total HP) to enemies with 1/10th of that DEF.

Flowery needs to be healed immediately after one hit, and takes about the same amount of damage as other characters with 30 DEF.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
It’s almost like it was a major plot point that he already understands that winning wouldn’t actually change much, since without anyone to take care of him in the Light World, he’d eventually wither away and die anyway. Or how they explicitly mention he hesitated during that final clash with Kris. Or how he doesn't even kill us.
Click to expand...
Nope. He actively tries his best, and only hesitated as Omega Flowery in the very last clash, he yells at you to get up so he can beat you properly.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
**** we don't even if he used those fake stats in his fight at all.
Click to expand...
We take 60 damage from his attacks, he didn't use them.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
As you said, EVERYTHING about him is fake, it's the point of his character. His PnA powers too, does that mean he shouldn't have any powers?
Click to expand...

When I'm in a "bad faith" competition and my opponent is a Deltarune scaler.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Flowey tries to use them against an opponent and is genuinely shocked when they don’t work, which doesn’t make sense if they were just for show.
Click to expand...

That means the 999s are legitimate, thus, not fake, contradicting even the line you're trying to use! Oh wow. His attacks still use his actual stats (around 40-50), and there's an intent to deceive the opponent, that's the concept of an illusion. He's surprised his illusion didn't work.

I'm genuinely debating if fake stats are fake or not.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Ever heard of Sonic Forces
Click to expand...

Nope, not engaging with whataboutism about series that have overwhelming evidence in favor of their personal interpretation because you can't converse.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Your interpretation again has to overlook the fact that we know FOR A FACT that without the fake stats, the damage he deals to the Knight shows up as a string of 0s.
Click to expand...

That's the Knight undoing the illusion, not the actual numbers done, because, as proven before, the Knight absolutely took some damage, just not the damage showcased by basic text manipulation. It doesn't overlook anything, you're grasping at straws.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
And I’m sorry, but no matter how you slice it, that either leaves your reading with at best a pretty far-fetched conclusion (He actually dealt 100+ damage to the Knight, but we see 000 cause?) or just straight-up ignore stuff at worst.
Click to expand...

Your interpretation says the 999s are legitimate, accepts that Flowery deals damage, and still has the 000s shown on screen. The counterpoint you push applies to both interpretation.

The fact Flowery damaged the Knight is undeniable.
The fact that said damage was "shown" as 000s is also undeniable.

That's true in BOTH interprtation, and these are the two facts that contradict each other if taken literally.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Again with the popular example
Click to expand...

False examples should genuinely be against the rules. I don't care. These verses have hundreds upon HUNDREDS of statements, feats, and evidence to support their interpretation. I'm not engaging with that, took a page out of someone else's book, did you?

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Making it "fake."
Click to expand...

Oh so the act of resisting the damage is what makes them fake now? Oh my sides.

Eden_Warlock99 said:
Literally nothing about his character would change if it was just a form of Subjective Reality based on the Dark World being loosey goosey with its "rules."
Click to expand...
"Everything about him is an illusion"
"You can ignore my fake statistics"
"999% TP attacks"
"99 ATK but 60 damage"
"Dreams are just dreams"

Oh yeah, his acceptance of everything being just a hopeful dream and wishful thinking that could never come to fruition doesn't change at all if his fake feats are suddenly validated as legitimate.
 
Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.
7mddgui.png
 
Zabazab said:
Faked, illusory stats should not be indexed as being in any way real of course. There's no argument against that. Flowery's 99 atk/def or 🌼 atk/def or whatever, plus the six other flowers, can be matched by Kris alone. It's nothing but a bluff. Being a happy illusion: that is, a dream, is what his entire character was.
Click to expand...
Unless you are conceptual or archtype
 
GodlyCharmander said:
The titan spawn is a weird outlier, we do similar damage (and percentages of their total HP) to enemies with 1/10th of that DEF.

Flowery needs to be healed immediately after one hit, and takes about the same amount of damage as other characters with 30 DEF.


Nope. He actively tries his best, and only hesitated as Omega Flowery in the very last clash, he yells at you to get up so he can beat you properly.


We take 60 damage from his attacks, he didn't use them.



When I'm in a "bad faith" competition and my opponent is a Deltarune scaler.



That means the 999s are legitimate, thus, not fake, contradicting even the line you're trying to use! Oh wow. His attacks still use his actual stats (around 40-50), and there's an intent to deceive the opponent, that's the concept of an illusion. He's surprised his illusion didn't work.

I'm genuinely debating if fake stats are fake or not.



Nope, not engaging with whataboutism about series that have overwhelming evidence in favor of their personal interpretation because you can't converse.



That's the Knight undoing the illusion, not the actual numbers done, because, as proven before, the Knight absolutely took some damage, just not the damage showcased by basic text manipulation. It doesn't overlook anything, you're grasping at straws.



Your interpretation says the 999s are legitimate, accepts that Flowery deals damage, and still has the 000s shown on screen. The counterpoint you push applies to both interpretation.

The fact Flowery damaged the Knight is undeniable.
The fact that said damage was "shown" as 000s is also undeniable.

That's true in BOTH interprtation, and these are the two facts that contradict each other if taken literally.



False examples should genuinely be against the rules. I don't care. These verses have hundreds upon HUNDREDS of statements, feats, and evidence to support their interpretation. I'm not engaging with that, took a page out of someone else's book, did you?



Oh so the act of resisting the damage is what makes them fake now? Oh my sides.


"Everything about him is an illusion"
"You can ignore my fake statistics"
"999% TP attacks"
"99 ATK but 60 damage"
"Dreams are just dreams"

Oh yeah, his acceptance of everything being just a hopeful dream and wishful thinking that could never come to fruition doesn't change at all if his fake feats are suddenly validated as legitimate.
Click to expand...
I was thinking about chara stats lately...could deltarune finally explain why chara is obessed with 9 ?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Wait until you realize 99% of the calcs of the verse rely on assuming the magic is literal, or in faulty Kinetic Energy.

8-B hammer swing, doesn't generate KE to destroy glass right next to it. And we accepted it
Click to expand...
So all of the cast should be 9-B in your opinion? Again... legit asking
 
Omegabronic said:
So all of the cast should be 9-B in your opinion? Again... legit asking
Click to expand...
High Tier 9 to Low Tier 8, I think there's an acceptable range where you can have feats and anti-feats, and that gap SURELY isn't several tiers.

I think it's fine to have consistent building level feats with some wall level anti-feats (depending on the feat), because in terms of writing, that's not nearly as egregious
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.
Click to expand...
???

Your interpretation that the fake statistics are valid would also make this a contradiction. The knight did get damaged, your side also agrees with that. The 0s are not "anything", that's not the claim. The 0s are just the knight undoing the illusion, the actual damage is not shown on screen in any way.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
High Tier 9 to Low Tier 8, I think there's an acceptable range where you can have feats and anti-feats, and that gap SURELY isn't several tiers.

I think it's fine to have consistent building level feats with some wall level anti-feats (depending on the feat), because in terms of writing, that's not nearly as egregious
Click to expand...
Just saying that kris can create sonic booms by jumping

GodlyCharmander said:
???

Your interpretation that the fake statistics are valid would also make this a contradiction. The knight did get damaged, your side also agrees with that. The 0s are not "anything", that's not the claim. The 0s are just the knight undoing the illusion, the actual damage is not shown on screen in any way.
Click to expand...
They are everything and beyond!
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.
7mddgui.png
Click to expand...
"Fantasy can't beat reality...so...I AM GOING TO BE REALITY WITH REALITY ITSELF"
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Can't we just go over what their unique Physiology grants them in their own pages?

Especially when it's basically just going to be 1-to-1 with the Darkner Physiology page
Click to expand...
I mean... if all of them will have the same thing over and over... having it on a single page is easier to manage and edit

Besides... it will be different... kind of Only reason i don't say to make it a subsection on the Darkner Physiology page is cuz uh... they're not Darkners at all... so
 
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