Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

[GodlyCharmander]

Being far... unless they legit are like, 9-B... wouldn't that contradict every calc for the verse? I literally couldn't care less about tier 4 Delta Warriors btw... Legit curious

Wait until you realize 99% of the calcs of the verse rely on assuming the magic is literal, or in faulty Kinetic Energy.

8-B hammer swing, doesn't generate KE to destroy glass right next to it. And we accepted it

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think the sun is supposed to be the Flower's doing, to be honest. It looks like it changes color from the Flower's power. Anyway, the clouds go behind the sun, so it's not real lol

Cool, we can put the sun debate to rest now.

Btw were y'all confused why the Manequin protect against Spamtom NEO Specifically and the Tasques?... Yeah... guess NEO body was Mad Dummy's... Aka.... Spamtom NEO is, now... CANNONICALLY A FURRY CATGIRL... do what you will with this info

Spamton’s body is from Mettaton/Nobody. Elements come in pairs, and Cat is paired with Puppet which is why Spamton has those elements (that plus maybe his connection to Friend).

 

[Omegabronic]

Whose side are you even on, Ralsei? Chooses not to use his apparently busted fire magic on the Titan for some reason, but then uses it on a random shuriken that wouldn't have done anything. I can't stay mad at him, though.

Theory... in the "Aborted" Weird Route... we will use him to do "Fireshock" and then... do what i wanted to do with Toriel in Chapter 3... Freezing isn't enough my fellas

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Cool, we can put the sun debate to rest now.

Get ready for "it's just the artstyle".

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler

 

[EnderLord8]

I'm not so sure; I think the fake stats actually carry some weight in combat. After all, Flowery seemed to think the attack would do something, and the Knight was bothered enough by it to "neutralize" the fake stats.

Sure, the Knight might have acted out of ego, but in that specific scene, the fake stats seemed to have some real impact. If it were just an illusion, it would have made more sense for Flowery to try to scare the Knight without actually attacking—which ended up confirming that the stats were a lie.

Perhaps the fake stats work by turning a lie into truth or a dream into reality, given that the battle seems to revolve around that theme.

At least, that’s my interpretation.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Get ready for "it's just the artstyle".

I start

it just art artstlye because it 4D strature !

Just like a 3D cube

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Btw were y'all confused why the Manequin protect against Spamtom NEO Specifically and the Tasques?... Yeah... guess NEO body was Mad Dummy's... Aka.... Spamtom NEO is, now... CANNONICALLY A FURRY CATGIRL... do what you will with this info

What? You're confusing characters, Neo body was drawn by Mettaton who wanted it, Maddie has nothing to do Neo

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm not so sure; I think the fake stats actually carry some weight in combat. After all, Flowery seemed to think the attack would do something, and the Knight was bothered enough by it to "neutralize" the fake stats.

This is the problem, people are acting like I'm saying the fake stats do 0 damage. No, his real strength is not low, he should be able to damage the knight, I'm just saying that it's not 100% accurate to what's on screen, otherwise, they wouldn't be fake.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

This is the problem, people are acting like I'm saying the fake stats do 0 damage. No, his real strength is not low, he should be able to damage the knight, I'm just saying that it's not 100% accurate to what's on screen, otherwise, they wouldn't be fake.

Fake 3D incorrect sun

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Me whem the sun

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They're fake because he says his defense is 99 while taking SIGNIFICANT damage from us.

The Titan Spawn have twice his DEF and we can kill them???

They're fake because he claims to have 99 ATK but can't one shot us.

It’s almost like it was a major plot point that he already understands that winning wouldn’t actually change much, since without anyone to take care of him in the Light World, he’d eventually wither away and die anyway. Or how they explicitly mention he hesitated during that final clash with Kris. Or how he doesn't even kill us.

**** we don't even if he used those fake stats in his fight at all.

They're fake because that's the point of the character.

As you said, EVERYTHING about him is fake, it's the point of his character. His PnA powers too, does that mean he shouldn't have any powers?
Why even give him a Profile, everything about him is an illusion, right?

Not to mention none of the above actually addresses my point.
Flowey tries to use them against an opponent and is genuinely shocked when they don’t work, which doesn’t make sense if they were just for show.

Ever heard of Sonic Forces? Infinite creates an army of clones to fight the heroes. These clones are called "illusions" despite clearly having real, physical effects on the world. Like I dunno what to tell you but verses treating "illusions" as functional constructs ain't exactly rare, GoW does it, Sonic does it, etc.
At least with DR, it actually makes sense given how fantasy and imagination driven Dark Worlds are.

The issue is that you can't accurately depict my interpretation. My interpretation is that his fake statistics have some effect based on his actual, genuine strength, plus the intent to deceive the Knight into thinking he's stronger than he actually is.

Your interpretation again has to overlook the fact that we know FOR A FACT that without the fake stats, the damage he deals to the Knight shows up as a string of 0s.

And I’m sorry, but no matter how you slice it, that either leaves your reading with at best a pretty far-fetched conclusion (He actually dealt 100+ damage to the Knight, but we see 000 cause, uhhhhhhh?) or just straight-up ignores stuff at worst.

Oh wow, that's really not possible with the character ENTIRELY MADE ON THE PREMISE TO BE AN ILLUSION.

Literally nothing about his character would change if it was just a form of Subjective Reality based on the Dark World being loosey goosey with its "rules."

Again with the popular example, Persona's Joker has a toy gun, and yet it acts like an actual gun in the Metaverse or whatever cause it looks like an actual one and the cognition that the Metaverse is built on makes it as strong as the opponent would perceive an actual gun. That's Subjective Reality.

And this lines up almost 1-to-1 with what Flowery tried to do to the Knight. He initially lands 999s of damage and appears to be harming them, but once the Knight breaks the illusion, it retroactively invalidates all the damage we visibly saw him inflict. Making it "fake."

Side note, you're being kinda mean, so, stop that.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Anyway "with your powers combine" is funny line about fusion bettewen ilusion

 

[Galactidot]

Do you reckon we could give RK durability and AP bypass abilities?

Looking at the overall context of Flowery's meta crap, we see both him and Ralsei are aware of meta elements, and Flowery (and implicitly Ralsei) can manipulate these on a whim, from the menu to their own stats, so it seems to be a tangible thing The Knight can simply ignore

I’ve always hated how Deltarune nerfs fights in patches because they’re almost always not that bad and feel like they’re just babying the playerbase (even the Sword Tunnel wasn’t that bad and just didn’t convey its hitbox properly), however Maddie’s regular bombs are genuinely unfair and I really hope they get nerfed.

BUT I LIKE THE HARD ATTACKS, GERSON WAS TOO EASY...

 

[Zabazab]

Faked, illusory stats should not be indexed as being in any way real of course. There's no argument against that. Flowery's 99 atk/def or atk/def or whatever, plus the six other flowers, can be matched by Kris alone. It's nothing but a bluff. Being a happy illusion: that is, a dream, is what his entire character was.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The Titan Spawn have twice his DEF and we can kill them???

The titan spawn is a weird outlier, we do similar damage (and percentages of their total HP) to enemies with 1/10th of that DEF.

Flowery needs to be healed immediately after one hit, and takes about the same amount of damage as other characters with 30 DEF.

It’s almost like it was a major plot point that he already understands that winning wouldn’t actually change much, since without anyone to take care of him in the Light World, he’d eventually wither away and die anyway. Or how they explicitly mention he hesitated during that final clash with Kris. Or how he doesn't even kill us.

Nope. He actively tries his best, and only hesitated as Omega Flowery in the very last clash, he yells at you to get up so he can beat you properly.

**** we don't even if he used those fake stats in his fight at all.

We take 60 damage from his attacks, he didn't use them.

As you said, EVERYTHING about him is fake, it's the point of his character. His PnA powers too, does that mean he shouldn't have any powers?

When I'm in a "bad faith" competition and my opponent is a Deltarune scaler.

Flowey tries to use them against an opponent and is genuinely shocked when they don’t work, which doesn’t make sense if they were just for show.

That means the 999s are legitimate, thus, not fake, contradicting even the line you're trying to use! Oh wow. His attacks still use his actual stats (around 40-50), and there's an intent to deceive the opponent, that's the concept of an illusion. He's surprised his illusion didn't work.

I'm genuinely debating if fake stats are fake or not.

Ever heard of Sonic Forces

Nope, not engaging with whataboutism about series that have overwhelming evidence in favor of their personal interpretation because you can't converse.

Your interpretation again has to overlook the fact that we know FOR A FACT that without the fake stats, the damage he deals to the Knight shows up as a string of 0s.

That's the Knight undoing the illusion, not the actual numbers done, because, as proven before, the Knight absolutely took some damage, just not the damage showcased by basic text manipulation. It doesn't overlook anything, you're grasping at straws.

And I’m sorry, but no matter how you slice it, that either leaves your reading with at best a pretty far-fetched conclusion (He actually dealt 100+ damage to the Knight, but we see 000 cause?) or just straight-up ignore stuff at worst.

Your interpretation says the 999s are legitimate, accepts that Flowery deals damage, and still has the 000s shown on screen. The counterpoint you push applies to both interpretation.

The fact Flowery damaged the Knight is undeniable.
The fact that said damage was "shown" as 000s is also undeniable.

That's true in BOTH interprtation, and these are the two facts that contradict each other if taken literally.

Again with the popular example

False examples should genuinely be against the rules. I don't care. These verses have hundreds upon HUNDREDS of statements, feats, and evidence to support their interpretation. I'm not engaging with that, took a page out of someone else's book, did you?

Making it "fake."

Oh so the act of resisting the damage is what makes them fake now? Oh my sides.

Literally nothing about his character would change if it was just a form of Subjective Reality based on the Dark World being loosey goosey with its "rules."

"Everything about him is an illusion"
"You can ignore my fake statistics"
"999% TP attacks"
"99 ATK but 60 damage"
"Dreams are just dreams"

Oh yeah, his acceptance of everything being just a hopeful dream and wishful thinking that could never come to fruition doesn't change at all if his fake feats are suddenly validated as legitimate.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.

 

[Zabazab]

The Knight did some pushups between chapter 3 and 5 and literally no-sold Flowery's attacks like how Fun Gang no-sold Ory's.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Faked, illusory stats should not be indexed as being in any way real of course. There's no argument against that. Flowery's 99 atk/def or atk/def or whatever, plus the six other flowers, can be matched by Kris alone. It's nothing but a bluff. Being a happy illusion: that is, a dream, is what his entire character was.

Unless you are conceptual or archtype

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

The Knight did some pushups between chapter 3 and 5 and literally no-sold Flowery's attacks like how Fun Gang no-sold Ory's.

It called lá plot

Ulala

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

The titan spawn is a weird outlier, we do similar damage (and percentages of their total HP) to enemies with 1/10th of that DEF.

Flowery needs to be healed immediately after one hit, and takes about the same amount of damage as other characters with 30 DEF.


Nope. He actively tries his best, and only hesitated as Omega Flowery in the very last clash, he yells at you to get up so he can beat you properly.


We take 60 damage from his attacks, he didn't use them.



When I'm in a "bad faith" competition and my opponent is a Deltarune scaler.



That means the 999s are legitimate, thus, not fake, contradicting even the line you're trying to use! Oh wow. His attacks still use his actual stats (around 40-50), and there's an intent to deceive the opponent, that's the concept of an illusion. He's surprised his illusion didn't work.

I'm genuinely debating if fake stats are fake or not.



Nope, not engaging with whataboutism about series that have overwhelming evidence in favor of their personal interpretation because you can't converse.



That's the Knight undoing the illusion, not the actual numbers done, because, as proven before, the Knight absolutely took some damage, just not the damage showcased by basic text manipulation. It doesn't overlook anything, you're grasping at straws.



Your interpretation says the 999s are legitimate, accepts that Flowery deals damage, and still has the 000s shown on screen. The counterpoint you push applies to both interpretation.

The fact Flowery damaged the Knight is undeniable.
The fact that said damage was "shown" as 000s is also undeniable.

That's true in BOTH interprtation, and these are the two facts that contradict each other if taken literally.



False examples should genuinely be against the rules. I don't care. These verses have hundreds upon HUNDREDS of statements, feats, and evidence to support their interpretation. I'm not engaging with that, took a page out of someone else's book, did you?



Oh so the act of resisting the damage is what makes them fake now? Oh my sides.


"Everything about him is an illusion"
"You can ignore my fake statistics"
"999% TP attacks"
"99 ATK but 60 damage"
"Dreams are just dreams"

Oh yeah, his acceptance of everything being just a hopeful dream and wishful thinking that could never come to fruition doesn't change at all if his fake feats are suddenly validated as legitimate.

I was thinking about chara stats lately...could deltarune finally explain why chara is obessed with 9 ?

 

[Omegabronic]

Wait until you realize 99% of the calcs of the verse rely on assuming the magic is literal, or in faulty Kinetic Energy.

8-B hammer swing, doesn't generate KE to destroy glass right next to it. And we accepted it

So all of the cast should be 9-B in your opinion? Again... legit asking

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

So all of the cast should be 9-B in your opinion? Again... legit asking

We dont know actually as we rapidly getting on fire as we try to scale

 

[Omegabronic]

What? You're confusing characters, Neo body was drawn by Mettaton who wanted it, Maddie has nothing to do Neo

... "nothing"? They LIVE on the same house...

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

... "nothing"? They LIVE on the same house...

It the power of love OF ******* NEO

You know future or knew

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

... "nothing"? They LIVE on the same house...

Anyway i literally everything on the table yet they dont talk about i wonder why

 

[Omegabronic]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Omegabronic/sandboxPlantPhysiology(Deltarune)

Since the Plants are neither Lightner NOR Darkner... yeah they need one now too

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Omegabronic/sandboxPlantPhysiology(Deltarune)

Since the Plants are neither Lightner NOR Darkner... yeah they need one now too

Can't we just go over what their unique Physiology grants them in their own pages?

Especially when it's basically just going to be 1-to-1 with the Darkner Physiology page

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Omegabronic/sandboxPlantPhysiology(Deltarune)

Since the Plants are neither Lightner NOR Darkner... yeah they need one now

Horay!!

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So all of the cast should be 9-B in your opinion? Again... legit asking

High Tier 9 to Low Tier 8, I think there's an acceptable range where you can have feats and anti-feats, and that gap SURELY isn't several tiers.

I think it's fine to have consistent building level feats with some wall level anti-feats (depending on the feat), because in terms of writing, that's not nearly as egregious

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Can't we just go over what their unique Physiology grants them in their own pages?

Especially when it's basically just going to be 1-to-1 with the Darkner Physiology page

Not really ? They are bio man not by product of the Man, Man

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.

???

Your interpretation that the fake statistics are valid would also make this a contradiction. The knight did get damaged, your side also agrees with that. The 0s are not "anything", that's not the claim. The 0s are just the knight undoing the illusion, the actual damage is not shown on screen in any way.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think it's fine to have consistent building level feats with some wall level anti-feats (depending on the feat), because in terms of writing, that's not nearly as egregious

Yeah Hazbin Hotel is like that rn (High 8-C with like 9 fall/gun anti-feats)

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

High Tier 9 to Low Tier 8, I think there's an acceptable range where you can have feats and anti-feats, and that gap SURELY isn't several tiers.

I think it's fine to have consistent building level feats with some wall level anti-feats (depending on the feat), because in terms of writing, that's not nearly as egregious

Just saying that kris can create sonic booms by jumping

???

Your interpretation that the fake statistics are valid would also make this a contradiction. The knight did get damaged, your side also agrees with that. The 0s are not "anything", that's not the claim. The 0s are just the knight undoing the illusion, the actual damage is not shown on screen in any way.

They are everything and beyond!

 

[Alexander]

Listen, I'm sorry Charmander but there's no world where I'll be able to buy that Toby's supposed intent behind this scene is that all those 0s are actually all 100+ damage and that apparently the display is wrong again, even though it's supposed to be the Knight cutting through fantasy to show reality. Like, I just can't sorry.

"Fantasy can't beat reality...so...I AM GOING TO BE REALITY WITH REALITY ITSELF"

 

[Omegabronic]

Can't we just go over what their unique Physiology grants them in their own pages?

Especially when it's basically just going to be 1-to-1 with the Darkner Physiology page

I mean... if all of them will have the same thing listed over and over again... having it on a single page will easier to manage and edit/more convenient

Besides... it will be different... kind of Only reason i don't say to make it a subsection on the Darkner Physiology page is cuz uh... they're not Darkners at all... so

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

"Fantasy can't beat reality...so...I AM GOING TO BE REALITY WITH REALITY ITSELF"

chara

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah Hazbin Hotel is like that rn (High 8-C with like 9 fall/gun anti-feats)

Deltarune would be so much more consistent if it was like that too. But hey, uh, 7-B with tier 9 anti-feats is cool I guess?

 

[Zabazab]

I was thinking about chara stats lately...could deltarune finally explain why chara is obessed with 9 ?

We already know why. It's because 9 is the highest, most powerful number. Nothing is bigger than 999• so when your stats are at that level, you can't be hurt anymore. Chara is said to be the kind of person who filled a glass of water all the way to the brim because "it was the most optimal way" to fill it.

 

[Da3ggman]

Tbh bullets for the most part I give bullets a pass unless they’re presence is just that major and reoccurring like in Hazbin, authors tend to wank bullets a lot so they can damage way above their pay grade.