DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread

[Eden_Warlock99]

It is pretty weird because in the Weird adjacent Route you're supposed to "beat" the Knight, and while they're obviously significantly stronger than the cast (Even in CH4) Susie still manages to crack its sword and other scaling like that, stuff that would give other verses an "At most" rating.

Like, it isn't that farfetched for 3 9-A with time reversal powers to beat someone who's far higher into 9-A, but if buddy is 4-A it sorta makes no sense at all.

 

[Agnaa]

Interesting point. I'm about to start trying for the Weird route today, so I haven't seen that stuff yet.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Colloquially reasonable, but not enough for profiles imo.

We need evidence that they use energy to create or prevent the destruction of a large mass, and that they use more energy in dishing out physical attacks. Them being created of (presumably, if we don't believe that creating Fountains within Fountains changes things too much) an amount of energy which could also create a large mass is nice, but scaling that full energy to attacks is missing substance, I think.

The thing is not much due to the lack of feats, but more the nature of Darkness itself.

Jevil could warp his cell, and that disappears once he's defeated, Spamton NEO can warp and manipulate the city he created in the Mansion, with that disappearing at defeat as well (yes I am gunning for 7-B Spamton NEO now, I was inintially against it but the new context from the Titans made me change my mind on it), and given that Spamton and Jevil are both Darkners, I can see the fact that Darkness is something that the Darkner can use to create/manipulate a place at will, with that disappearing at defeat (AKA Jevil becoming too tired to keep fighting and Spamton NEO's wire thing in the Pacifist ends).

"But what about the common enemies being 7-B then!" yeah 7-B is not an absurd jump compared to 4-A tbh.

Ehh, pretty sure Ralsei said "Jump on it, it won't attack itself", not "Jump on it, get away from the darkness". That specific approach seemed (at least initially) fuelled by wanting to not be attacked, rather than by outrunning the darkness.

And that doesn't really invalidate the offensive troubles they had.

Because being attacked would mean they'll get slowed enough to be engulfed from that. Plus Ralsei has a clear inferiority complex as he does not seem to be worthy of even having his own room at Castle Town (he literally sleeps in a room without ANYTHING, not even lighting), so him underestimating himself is not that far fetched. While off-topic, we did remove from Monika the whole "she's bad at coding" from her weaknesses because of that being just a reflection of her own self-hatred when facts speak otherwise, so I think the same applies here.

There was still the typical gameplay scaling, but yeah, nothing in cutscenes.

I meant cutscenes there ye. For example Palkia being OHKO by a wild Druddigon is just a game mechanic due to it just how the game works rather than a reflection of the lore, but if the thing is heavily scripted to make it happen in the actual story progression and/or happens in a cutscene, then that's clearly intended to happen in the actual story.

Chapters 1-3 had these while 4 didn't, so we can go more lax around it, ye.

 

[Agnaa]

The thing is not much due to the lack of feats, but more the nature of Darkness itself.

Jevil could warp his cell, and that disappears once he's defeated, Spamton NEO can warp and manipulate the city he created in the Mansion, with that disappearing at defeat as well (yes I am gunning for 7-B Spamton NEO now, I was inintially against it but the new context from the Titans made me change my mind on it), and given that Spamton and Jevil are both Darkners, I can see the fact that Darkness is something that the Darkner can use to create/manipulate a place at will, with that disappearing at defeat (AKA Jevil becoming too tired to keep fighting and Spamton NEO's wire thing in the Pacifist ends).

I don't think that's as good of a connection, considering how Darkners can use magic. Attributing their feats to a Darkness UES doesn't seem great, especially when those earlier cases lacked the TP limiting we saw in fights with characters we know are associated with Darkness.

That aside, I would pester about how our rules say that we need to know that their physical attacks use more energy than such stabilisation/creation/warping, but tbh most verses ignore this so it could probably slip by.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think that's as good of a connection, considering how Darkners can use magic. Attributing their feats to a Darkness UES doesn't seem great, especially when those earlier cases lacked the TP limiting we saw in fights with characters we know are associated with Darkness.

What are you even talking about here? How is TP relevant in this case, because neither Jevil nor Spamton NEO make even a hint at that (yes mine is genuine confusion here).

That aside, I would pester about how our rules say that we need to know that their physical attacks use more energy than such stabilisation/creation/warping, but tbh most verses ignore this so it could probably slip by.

I do think that just being comparable is enough, like would you say that if a wizard creates a city with 100 mana points, but then uses 90 for a fire ball, then said fireball is not downscaling? I think that's being way too nitpicky for my taste.

 

[Agnaa]

What are you even talking about here? How is TP relevant in this case, because neither Jevil nor Spamton NEO make even a hint at that (yes mine is genuine confusion here).

I mean, the enemies we see in Chapter 4 that are heavily based around the Darkness all limit TP gain, iirc. I know the bad-spelling-friend and the Titan definitely do, and I think some random enemies do as well.

I do think that just being comparable is enough, like would you say that if a wizard creates a city with 100 mana points, but then uses 90 for a fire ball, then said fireball is not downscaling? I think that's being way too nitpicky for my taste.

There's no good line to draw besides "same or greater", when we have precise numbers.

When we're not given numbers, shit gets really rough, since outside of contrived situations, we don't have a great measuring stick. For characters like Jevil and Spamton, we don't know whether the background level they're using to sustain that sort of thing costs a lot of energy, or a small amount. We don't know whether that's taking up 5% or 95% of their capacity.

The Titan case gets dicier since it was made out of the same process used to make a fountain, rather than it making a fountain itself. We don't know how much of that world-making energy gets to its attacks.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, the enemies we see in Chapter 4 that are heavily based around the Darkness all limit TP gain, iirc. I know the bad-spelling-friend and the Titan definitely do, and I think some random enemies do as well.

I do not think that a new mechanic in fights really influences the nature of the previous feats. Yes, TP reduction is based on Darkness, but that's because said characters revolve around it. Spamton and Jevil are Darkners too, there's nothing else they could've used given their nature and how Darkness in itself works.

Plus, again, TP reduction happens only in Ch 4, which can be interpreted as said Darkness just being far more potent, hence having this effect.

When we're not given numbers, shit gets really rough, since outside of contrived situations, we don't have a great measuring stick. For characters like Jevil and Spamton, we don't know whether the background level they're using to sustain that sort of thing costs a lot of energy, or a small amount. We don't know whether that's taking up 5% or 95% of their capacity.

The Titan case gets dicier since it was made out of the same process used to make a fountain, rather than it making a fountain itself. We don't know how much of that world-making energy gets to its attacks.

Just existing would take less energy than attacks though. Because Spamton made the city and it disappeared only when the NEO body stopped working, hinting that sustaining after creation it is a passive effect of its working that does not take that much energy, same with Jevil who warps his room by just floating.

Existing as a Fountain here would definitely take less effort than whatever it did later on, too.

 

[Agnaa]

I do not think that a new mechanic in fights really influences the nature of the previous feats. Yes, TP reduction is based on Darkness, but that's because said characters revolve around it. Spamton and Jevil are Darkners too, there's nothing else they could've used given their nature and how Darkness in itself works.

Plus, again, TP reduction happens only in Ch 4, which can be interpreted as said Darkness just being far more potent, hence having this effect.

If there was a stronger link between them and Darkness, sure, but the link is just that they're Darkners, and Darkners have other ways of performing those feats; magic.

Just existing would take less energy than attacks though. Because Spamton made the city and it disappeared only when the NEO body stopped working, hinting that sustaining after creation it is a passive effect of its working that does not take that much energy, same with Jevil who warps his room by just floating.

Existing as a Fountain here would definitely take less effort than whatever it did later on, too.

I don't think that's really true? Even for IRL humans, I don't know if the added energy of throwing a punch is greater than the rest of the energy expended by standing.

And in cases like these, beyond them having fictional biologies, that warping isn't the energy of them existing. They (presumably) don't need to do those things to exist, it's just something they do all the time, and so once they die, they stop doing it.

One could imagine a humanoid that shoots a heat beam out of their head 24/7, for as long as they live. There's no good reason for this heat beam to scale to their punches, any more than a heat beam they fire off when they choose to would.

 

[Axorandom0]

I'm not a calc member what's wrong with e-8.

e-8 is equivalent to x10^-8, meaning that the calculations result is equivalent to 136.774 Joules

 

[StrymULTRA]

If there was a stronger link between them and Darkness, sure, but the link is just that they're Darkners, and Darkners have other ways of performing those feats; magic.

Darkness > Magic though...

I don't think that's really true? Even for IRL humans, I don't know if the added energy of throwing a punch is greater than the rest of the energy expended by standing.

I mean, do you get tired to the point of not being able to stand anymore after throwing a punch? :V

One could imagine a humanoid that shoots a heat beam out of their head 24/7, for as long as they live. There's no good reason for this heat beam to scale to their punches, any more than a heat beam they fire off when they choose to would.

It would if that thing is potrayed as super casual though.

 

[Agnaa]

Darkness > Magic though...

Eh, I think it's weird to compare energy systems like that.

Plus, that doesn't mean that Jevil/Spamton had to have been using Darkness.

I mean, do you get tired to the point of not being able to stand anymore after throwing a punch? :V

If I used the last of my energy to throw it, I guess so? But our bodies usually don't have us exert ourselves that hard.

It would if that thing is potrayed as super casual though.

Yeah, it's just hard to tell if it's casual if it's on all the time. We don't see the change in their manner when activating it, since we never see them activating it.

Although by that standard, maybe Spamton NEO still qualifies?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Eh, I think it's weird to compare energy systems like that.

Plus, that doesn't mean that Jevil/Spamton had to have been using Darkness.

I mean that Darkness would by definition make up everything, including Magic given it's a core part of the Dark Worlds as well.

Given that Darkners are made of Darkness, it's just logical to include they're magical as well.

If I used the last of my energy to throw it, I guess so? But our bodies usually don't have us exert ourselves that hard.

Yeah, my point. These attacks definitely require more effort than just doing whatever Spamton NEO/Jevil did, as they seem to do it by just thinking and does not require a physical action.

Yeah, it's just hard to tell if it's casual if it's on all the time. We don't see the change in their manner when activating it, since we never see them activating it.

See above.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean that Darkness would by definition make up everything, including Magic given it's a core part of the Dark Worlds as well.

Given that Darkners are made of Darkness, it's just logical to include they're magical as well.

Oh, okay.

I'm not a fan, but I see the throughline.

Yeah, my point. These attacks definitely require more effort than just doing whatever Spamton NEO/Jevil did, as they seem to do it by just thinking and does not require a physical action.

See above.

Just fought Jevil. We don't see him activating the small-scale warping he does, and iirc he does some attacks without corresponding physical actions.

In general, this doesn't seem like the sort of magic system where certain spells that are more powerful need physical movement. It just seems like it adds visual flare to the fights.

Would you believe that if a character paralysed or body puppeted Jevil/Spamton, that they wouldn't be able to attack at their ordinary level of strength? I think they would.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Just checked my calcs, I think the heat one is 1000× higher than it should be because I messed up the formula (used kilojoules instead of joules lol). I'm just gonna let someone else handle that feat

And the Titan's GPE is probably not valid, it's hollow and made of material that doesn't exist lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just fought Jevil. We don't see him activating the small-scale warping he does, and iirc he does some attacks without corresponding physical actions.

I mean the whole cage spinning and then him making it disappear.

In general, this doesn't seem like the sort of magic system where certain spells that are more powerful need physical movement. It just seems like it adds visual flare to the fights.

I mean, Jevil's is just a supportive thing for Spamton NEO's stuff tbh.

Would you believe that if a character paralysed or body puppeted Jevil/Spamton, that they wouldn't be able to attack at their ordinary level of strength? I think they would.

I do not see how is this relevant to what I am arguing ngl.

I mean, even then, simply emboding X thing is enough to warrant a rating sometimes (like Eternity being the embodiment of the universe), unless you wanna make it something like the Weakened Soul King, despite the fact that Reiatsu is UES (4-A for physicals is another feat that's not linked fsr).

EDIT: Forgot that Soul King is ED because apparently the collapse takes a LOT of time, this does not really happen with the Titan though?

 

[Axorandom0]

Just checked my calcs, I think the heat one is 1000× higher than it should be because I messed up the formula (used kilojoules instead of joules lol). I'm just gonna let someone else handle that feat

I mean I’m pretty sure you can just divide by 1000 if that’s the case

 

[Agnaa]

I mean the whole cage spinning and then him making it disappear.

Eh. The spinning is unquantifiable reality warping, it's the creation/stabilisation that matters for tiering below Low 2-C.

I do not see how is this relevant to what I am arguing ngl.

I mean, even then, simply emboding X thing is enough to warrant a rating sometimes (like Eternity being the embodiment of the universe), unless you wanna make it something like the Weakened Soul King, despite the fact that Reiatsu is UES (4-A for physicals is another feat that's not linked fsr).

EDIT: Forgot that Soul King is ED because apparently the collapse takes a LOT of time, this does not really happen with the Titan though?

There's embodiment where a character's physicals are reflective of the thing they're embodying, and "embodiment" where they aren't.

Plus I think it gets weirder here, where the thing it corresponds to isn't that size by itself, but has the power to make something of a huge size.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Eh. The spinning is unquantifiable reality warping, it's the creation/stabilisation that matters for tiering below Low 2-C.

I am aware of this, my point is that Spamton NEO would still be fully 7-B.

If that were to fly, given that the 9-A feats are all made by high tiers, I wonder what would be the best tier for the rest? I do recall Lancer making an explosion in Ch 1, same with the Smiling mob in Ch 3, so maybe we can use these (as in a "9-B, at most 7-B" kind of thing).

Plus I think it gets weirder here, where the thing it corresponds to isn't that size by itself, but has the power to make something of a huge size.

The thing is that the Titan would be a Dark World in itself, and given how lesser Darkners can manipulate stuff they can create as shown by Spamton NEO, then the Titan can do the same on a far greater scale given how Darkness works.

Aka my argument is that if you accept Spamton NEO being 7-B, the Titan would be 4-A given the mechanics of the verse.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If that were to fly, given that the 9-A feats are all made by high tiers, I wonder what would be the best tier for the rest? I do recall Lancer making an explosion in Ch 1, same with the Smiling mob in Ch 3, so maybe we can use these (as in a "9-B, at most 7-B" kind of thing).

Main 9-A feat comes from Berdly, who isn't really more than a CH2 mini-boss, so think everyone can stay at 9-A.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Main 9-A feat comes from Berdly, who isn't really more than a CH2 mini-boss, so think everyone can stay at 9-A.

Is he? Because I don't think Lightners would be THAT far apart from each other. I'd like to make him at least comparable to Noelle given the whole Snowgrave thing of her becoming stronger and her eventually being needed to beat Spamton NEO, and Berdly is consistently potrayed on our level too.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Is he? Because I don't think Lightners would be THAT far apart from each other. I'd like to make him at least comparable to Noelle given the whole Snowgrave thing of her becoming stronger and her eventually being needed to beat Spamton NEO, and Berdly is consistently potrayed on our level too.

Still, he's the main reason (Him calling forth Werewires as support) the CH2 fodder enemies scale to the cast. Tasque also does it, but yeah.
Plus, even the CH1 fodder can still overpower King and the entire CH1 cast, who together, are definitely stronger than Berdly by himself.

 

[Agnaa]

The thing is that the Titan would be a Dark World in itself, and given how lesser Darkners can manipulate stuff they can create as shown by Spamton NEO, then the Titan can do the same on a far greater scale given how Darkness works.

Aka my argument is that if you accept Spamton NEO being 7-B, the Titan would be 4-A given the mechanics of the verse.

I don't think "Darkness creates Dark Worlds which creates Magic" means that Darkness can do everything that Magic can.

And, as I said before, I don't think there's good evidence that Spamton/Jevil do their feats through Darkness.

So believing that the Titan could freely warp Dark World-sized areas doesn't seem to have good enough evidence for me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think "Darkness creates Dark Worlds which creates Magic" means that Darkness can do everything that Magic can.

"Magic somehow is beyond its very foundation". Does this sound right to you?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Still, he's the main reason (Him calling forth Werewires as support) the CH2 fodder enemies scale to the cast. Tasque also does it, but yeah.
Plus, even the CH1 fodder can still overpower King and the entire CH1 cast, who together, are definitely stronger than Berdly by himself.

Hence why I think that an "At most 7-B" would work for them, but Berdly definitely should get a full rating tbh.

 

[EnderLord8]

following

 

[CanineAnnoyer]

I calculated Elnina's ice crystal creation and got 8-C

 

[Comiphorous]

I calculated Elnina's ice crystal creation and got 8-C

are we... back??? Can i throw madness combat at Deltarune finally?!?!!??

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is Light Word Kris 2-B because they can overpower the Player's SOUL in Ch 4 lol

 

[Blunt_Claw]

Ralsei can levitate while running.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The Titan's flavor text says that the ground is shaking, isn't that something?

Iirc, King had something similar, but it got rejected for some reason (I think it was because it wasnt clear if he was the source or not?)

 

[Axorandom0]

I did my own version of the “Lanino heats up the room” calc with my own logic and I got 9-A. Does it check out well? Should I instead have used the temperature from before any heating started instead of the heat change he did in one turn?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I used the full extent of the temperature change, but I see the logic here. I'd like to see a high end which uses the base temperature, since he did raise it from that number, just over the course of a few turns (which are typically 10 seconds or so)

 

[Axorandom0]

I used the full extent of the temperature change, but I see the logic here. I'd like to see a high end which uses the base temperature, since he did raise it from that number, just over the course of a few turns (which are typically 10 seconds or so)

Donezo, it’s in the blog

 

[Agnaa]

"Magic somehow is beyond its very foundation". Does this sound right to you?

This is like the Power Bestowal issue.

Being able to cause other characters do be able to do something, does not mean that you can do that thing yourself.

Creating a world where characters can use magic does not mean that you can use magic.

As a very key example of this from Deltarune itself, look at Kris! They created Chapter 3's Dark Fountain, but can't use magic.

The Titan's flavor text says that the ground is shaking, isn't that something?

Iirc, King had something similar, but it got rejected for some reason (I think it was because it wasnt clear if he was the source or not?)

No, stuff like that's too vague to be able to be calculated.

(Well, you can technically calculate it, but it tends to give absurdly low results, since all you can really do is like 5 m/s KE over a modest area. You need much better evidence for an actual earthquake, which is where the high results come from)

Donezo, it’s in the blog

When AP feats take more than a second, we're meant to divide the end result by the time it took. If the "course of the battle" was four turns that took 10 seconds each, it should be divided by 40.

 

[Axorandom0]

When AP feats take more than a second, we're meant to divide the end result by the time it took. If the "course of the battle" was four turns that took 10 seconds each, it should be divided by 40.

Time to find a speedrun so I can time it, brb

 

[Agnaa]

Eh, you can just cut the menuing time out. That's player-determined anyway.

 

[Axorandom0]

the blog is updated. the parents are fighting wall level.

 

[Psychomaster35]

We're turning on the remote and zapping through on this one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

As a very key example of this from Deltarune itself, look at Kris! They created Chapter 3's Dark Fountain, but can't use magic.

Comparing Kris, to someone who is actually made out of the same process that a Darkner is made is absolutely a leap in logic + it's you using wiki standards over what's hinted in the narration.

That and the fact that this is the same arguments people are making to not make Arceus have all the verse's powers, and I'd want to avoid needing to deal with that again, thanks.

 

[Agnaa]

Comparing Kris, to someone who is actually made out of the same process that a Darkner is made is absolutely a leap in logic + it's you using wiki standards over what's hinted in the narration.

That and the fact that this is the same arguments people are making to not make Arceus have all the verse's powers, and I'd want to avoid needing to deal with that again, thanks.

If you're just talking about your own personal scaling, then fair enough, it's not a bad interpretation.

But for actual profiles we gotta follow wiki standards.