- 12,000
- 4,834
Are we trying to put undyne down like a dog or something?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DELTARUNE; Chapter 3 & 4 !!!SPOILER!!! Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ShockingPsychic
- Start date
- Status
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
So I’ve seen some starry sky dark fountain discussion here but I don’t remember seeing any starry skies in the dark worlds (tbh I wasn’t paying attention to the backdrops). Can someone link that to me?
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,642
- 6,689
Snow area in TV World, right before ya fight Tenna
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #84
Tbf on-site she oneshots
Obv it wouldn't go down like that in lore but yeah
(I'll paste it into a blog)
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,642
- 6,689
Titan only has 40 ATK, Regular Undyne is stronger fr
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #86
Here's the calc attempt but I want to be clear I do not think it's accurate lol
I had no idea what to do here so I used this calc for reference
I had no idea what to do here so I used this calc for reference
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
Could you get a slightly higher result by using Elnina’s -999 F? Because it’s negative it has more heat change from the temp of 55 used in the calc
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #88
I took one look at a cooling calc and decided it was a little above what I could accomplish, lol
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
Can you show me the cooling calc pls :3
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #90
- 12,000
- 4,834
The Titan just needs one calc on it's size and it's a horrid ungodly stomp.Tbf on-site she oneshots
Obv it wouldn't go down like that in lore but yeah
also rn you can still technically argue for City level Titan with what's accepted (at least in durability with it's defenses up) since it's a literal dark fountain, which can create Dark Worlds.
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
How would we even calculate the Titan’s PE? That would require some sort of mass and it’s both 1. Pretty hollow, and 2. Made of darkness I think (or at least Dark Fountain material I’m pretty sure). I don’t think darkness has a density…
- 12,000
- 4,834
deltarunetitan
vsbattles.fandom.com
amazing progress, me.
- 12,000
- 4,834
Idk with the unparalleled power of powerscaler mental illness? I got nothing bro.
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #95
Using the stuff for a human miiight be a suitable substitute? That's what I'm trying, since darkness obv can't be used lol
ShockingPsychic
He/Him- 4,228
- 1,998
- Thread starter
- #96
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
Could the soul lighting up the Titan by sealing it potentially be calculated? With how much impact is shown there, it could def be a really cool supporting calc (I doubt it’d get higher than 9-A but… well, it’d be cool to look at!)
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
Actually now that I look back on it, the inside of the Titan is pretty gaseous. I’m pretty sure the density of air (or some other gas) could maybe be used to help calculate its mass.
- 12,000
- 4,834
High 8-C can't throw this mf at anyone in Madness Combat. Disappointing. Also likely makes The Knight unmatchable with The Auditor ****
neato tho.
Axorandom0
He/Him- 1,055
- 482
It should be 9-A, I think the math was just done wrong during the GPE part (which explains the e-8 on the end of it)
- 12,000
- 4,834
I'm not a calc member what's wrong with e-8.
- 16,105
- 5,575
Evaluated your calc, and I see some issues with it.
- 18,196
- 19,625
This argument seems wack as heck.
- There's the exposition dump at the start of Chapter 3 explaining how Dark Worlds work. If an excessive amount of light is drained away from the world, people in that area see illusions. Yeah, certain effects have a correspondence across both worlds, but I think that's fine; the illusions are rooted in the objects in that room, with significant alterations to objects in them being reflected in both. I think them being shared illusions is a much better explanation than them using abstract geometry to fit galaxies into single rooms, while being able to reimpose its effects back on reality the moment it's sealed.
This does kinda make me doubt the merit of having profiles cover anything besides the Light World versions of characters, tbh.EDIT: nvm, we do this sort of stuff with SAO anyway, so it's fine.
- The blog doesn't establish that the amount of soul-energy put into things like Red Buster is comparable to or greater than the energy used for sealing fountains. And I think given the in-game portrayal, sealing fountains seems to use quite a bit. Especially since doing so requires both Kris and Susie, as established in Chapter 1.
- The blog provides some superfluous and flawed arguments (their evidence for Lightners using SOULs to create Dark Fountains doesn't say that, and they admit it's contradicted by Kris being able to do so without one). This doesn't take away from their less flawed avenues, but means there's less support for it.
Last edited:
- 7,814
- 7,468
->Titans
->The Roaring
->Future events being foretold in advance
->You might be unable to escape a fate already told of
Was Toby Fox watching Attack on Titan when writing Deltarune?
Good chapters btw. And by god Chapter 4 was longer than I expected
->The Roaring
->Future events being foretold in advance
->You might be unable to escape a fate already told of
Was Toby Fox watching Attack on Titan when writing Deltarune?
Good chapters btw. And by god Chapter 4 was longer than I expected
- 12,000
- 4,834
Why would we do that.
That'd literally throw out like 90% of the game for scaling lmao. Kris doesn't even share the same amount of HP or stats between the light world and dark world, and we're meant to assume everything they do in the dark world and light world are just interchangeable?
- 18,196
- 19,625
Would it just be a prominence argument?
EDIT: We do treat SAO that way because of prominence, so sure.
Not interchangeable. Just that the dark world stuff wouldn't be applicable for profiles.
Last edited:
- 12,000
- 4,834
Ralsei admits they're hiding information about how the Dark World functions. Deleting the entire verse based off a character's dialogue who later admits they're hiding information and not giving the full picture is rather silly.
That, and despite him saying it's illusions, it clearly doesn't 100% function like that since Titans, who are Dark World entities, are prophesized to destroy the planet and Chapter 1's Dark World is very much bigger than the closet they were in.
- 18,196
- 19,625
I mean, that incomplete information stuff is why we, for a while, didn't index Deltarune at all. But we decided to just roll with whatever makes most sense based on the information we have, since there's years between releases, and many other types of media have later instalments anyway.
Eh, we don't know how that process works. I'd bet that it would function by enough dark fountains crossing a threshold that makes Titans real, or has them form out of the Dark Fountain darkness itself (that darkness is real, but the worlds seen by those within it are illusions) as we see in Chapter 4.
All Dark Worlds are much bigger than their physical locations. I just think that's part of the illusion. The combination-locked church door in Chapter 4 is different from the big door we see in the Dark World, where it matches the door we see in Chapter 1 connecting the two rooms. They correspond to things in the real world, they're illusions based on them, but their details differ.
- 12,000
- 4,834
Yeah but thats when it was a single chapter and it just wasn't a lot of content.
The game is now 4 chapters in with plenty of content at this point, with a 5th chapter coming next year. Are we deadass right now? It's not even close to the same thing.
That's a headcanon on how it'd work, which isn't usable here. As far as we know they take the form of the fountains, "envelop the land in devastation", and then destroy everything.
Last edited:
- 12,000
- 4,834
You can't use your own headcanon to assume the Titans simply aren't real when the single visual we get for The Roaring depicts the titans in the Light World.
- 18,196
- 19,625
idk what you think we should do then. Leave the profiles in stasis until Chapter 5 comes out?
That's also headcanon.
You're saying that The Roaring is proof that Dark Worlds aren't illusions, but we don't actually know enough about how The Roaring operates to take that as a reasonable conclusion, I was highlighting some examples of how those two ideas could co-exist.
On the other hand, we do have very clear statements of how the Dark Worlds work that place them as illusions.
You're taking clear information, and saying that vague information & headcanon means we should take the clear information as contradicted, and not believe that it's true. I don't think that's a good idea.
That's not what I said?? I was giving ways that Titans could exist in the Light World, with the contents of Dark Worlds still remaining illusions in general.You can't use your own headcanon to assume the Titans simply aren't real when the single visual we get for The Roaring depicts the titans in the Light World.
- 19,322
- 12,022
Gotta go here after I finish the Weird route, but...
This is the exact same stuff that people have been arguing to make SAO 10-C, we just use verse equalization because the Dark Worlds are indeed notable enough despite not being "real" (unless you wanna argue 11-C Darkners, but something tells me you'd get that far for the sake of doing that, given other claims you made on UTDR).
Even then, 4-A is legit because the special effects all happen inside the Green Room, everything else is untampered and just part of the "real" part, saying these aren't stars but illusions when EVERYTHING in the Dark World is an illusion to begin with, unless somehow is faker than fake.
This right here is the most pedantic thing I ever seen. I have never seen someone anti-scale a verse so hard unlike you, it's as if you constantly think about how to oppose Toby Fox stuff to a degree that's almost comedic.
This is the exact same stuff that people have been arguing to make SAO 10-C, we just use verse equalization because the Dark Worlds are indeed notable enough despite not being "real" (unless you wanna argue 11-C Darkners, but something tells me you'd get that far for the sake of doing that, given other claims you made on UTDR).
Even then, 4-A is legit because the special effects all happen inside the Green Room, everything else is untampered and just part of the "real" part, saying these aren't stars but illusions when EVERYTHING in the Dark World is an illusion to begin with, unless somehow is faker than fake.
- 12,000
- 4,834
Super illusion that spawns a titan, lowkey.
- 18,196
- 19,625
Oh right, we do index multiple levels of a verse in that way in SAO.
Yeah, never mind this then. I remember sitewide changes for that not looking very promising.
I can reach past this to see a fair point. In that, once I discount scaling through the feats of Lightners creating Dark Worlds, we can scale through the feats of sealing the Dark Worlds from within them. And for that, the "illusion" argument is, indeed, irrelevant. The only concern there is it scaling to attacks.
Please keep comments like this outside of places where I can see them in the future. I find them hurtful and unproductive.
- 19,322
- 12,022
My main concern with that is that fodders are always somehow relevant to the main characters:
- In Chapter 1 Rudinns could overwhelm the Fun Gang and later the King once enough of them got ammassed.
- In Chapter 2 Berdly summons Werewires for support, which isn't that logical if they're 1 trillionth of his strength.
- In Chapter 3 the Shadowlads can harm Tenna in a minigame of the A-rank room.
I do think the exception can be done in Chapter 4 as it has no links to the other chapters as far as I saw, and 4-A Titan is probably legit due to it fully emboding and sustaining a fountain (similar to how the Guardians from OFF are 5-B due to them creating and then sustaining their Zones), other than being made of darkness itself.
So I do think that 4-A off Fountain Creation is weird unless you wanna say that even common enemies are 4-A, but 4-A from the Titan has merit still.
Last edited:
- 10,201
- 9,955
I also dislike the idea of not rating the physicals of Dark World characters, but let's chill.
Neutral about the Titan and the Dark World size scaling, but Kris used sealing/light hax to defeat the Titan, so I don't think this could scale to their physical stats. Titans are said to be able to destroy the world, so this could be used for them.
Neutral about the Titan and the Dark World size scaling, but Kris used sealing/light hax to defeat the Titan, so I don't think this could scale to their physical stats. Titans are said to be able to destroy the world, so this could be used for them.
- 19,322
- 12,022
The issue is that the Titan still physically sustains and embodies the thing as they're made of the same Darkness that makes the fountains, AND the fact that they're the Fountain itself.
Kris sealing it with hax does not mean much (unless you wanna say the Titan is a glass cannon), given that they could still harm and take blows from it many times.
- 18,196
- 19,625
Oh right those are good points too.
I don't clearly remember statements about them embodying/sustaining it, but I'd believe you about them being there. Seems reasonably likely tbh. Although, this doesn't seem like much of a shortcut, our standards for Stabilization Feats still require us to go through a lot of the same steps as for creation feats, in terms of getting it to scale to statistics.
A high rating for the Titans themselves is pretty scant on issues. For scaling to the party, they did desperately dodge and climb onto it to not be attacked, but then they fought and defeated it. Although, their attacks required light hax to temporarily be able to lightly damage its shell. Although, they were able to meaningfully damage its insides. Although, insides of giant enemies are a common weak spot. From my playthrough alone, I'm about 70-30 on them scaling.
Plus, I do think it's very likely that we'll see earlier enemies come back later. Any issues with common enemies being 4-A would likely resurface in later chapters if the party scales through the Titan.
- 19,322
- 12,022
While it's not explicitly said, I do think the implication is there given how Ralsei said that if Fountains run for too long, a Titan gets made out of it, which is what happened when The Knight made another fountain. The Titan is said new Fountain, and given how Darkness seem to be a UES-like thing as Darkness makes stuff like Magic which does scale to physicals, I do think it's a reasonable claim.
This isn't a good point as they were pretty much in a dire situation and needed to run away from being engulfed from the Darkness beneath them, rather than them being too weak to fight it. They can take multiple hits even then, so it's more a matter of time and convenience than a strength issue.
Common enemies scaling to the Fun Gang did not occur in Chapter 4 as far as I saw, so yours is pretty much just paranoia. Like you can't just deny something because "what if new entries give anti feats???", this is extremely paranoid and kinda invalidates powerscaling still-running works of fiction (good luck doing that with on-going mangas). If relevant anti-feats are made in the incoming chapters, no shit we'll downgrade, but for now there's nothing against Chapter 4 characters scaling to a full 4-A here.
- 18,196
- 19,625
Colloquially reasonable, but not enough for profiles imo.
We need evidence that they use energy to create or prevent the destruction of a large mass, and that they use more energy in dishing out physical attacks. Them being created of (presumably, if we don't believe that creating Fountains within Fountains changes things too much) an amount of energy which could also create a large mass is nice, but scaling that full energy to attacks is missing substance, I think.
Ehh, pretty sure Ralsei said "Jump on it, it won't attack itself", not "Jump on it, get away from the darkness". That specific approach seemed (at least initially) fuelled by wanting to not be attacked, rather than by outrunning the darkness.
And that doesn't really invalidate the offensive troubles they had.
There was still the typical gameplay scaling, but yeah, nothing in cutscenes.
And I wasn't meaning that as a reason for them not to scale. That's why I mentioned it after the evidence for and against them scaling, and after I gave my personal estimation over whether they would, where I said them scaling (at least to the Titan's PE) is more likely than not.
I have my reservations but I'm not denying it. Chill.
- Status
