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Perfect! Then this CRT can be concluded, other then a "likely higher" for deathwings tier, everything is amazing!
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Deathwing CRT of death...wing.
- Thread starter DaReaperMan
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Does Deathwing or those that he can tag have feats of this? cause otherwise hes Hypersonic+ for being FAR superior to Dread infernals.
Mr. Bambu
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First one says celestial energy- I know you claim this is "sun energy" but the sun has... a lot of energy. That isn't light. Or lightspeed.
Others are valid light though I'd need proof of dodging. After that, a calc can be had.
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My personal recommendation for this is to scan PVP with the second and third abilities or scan wowhead more for info on those
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Were the changes made? If so, I can close this thread.
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more speed things came up, but the changes have not been made yet.
Mr. Bambu
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That recommendation would go to you. I don't play WoW anymore, nor am I going to scan through videos, no offense. If that evidence can be brought forward, I'd happily do a calc.
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Using in game spells in order to prove dodging is iffy. Especially since it's kinda unprovable because it's a target based game the attacks always hit you and always go through you, the only way to "dodge" them is through literally the "dodge mechanic". Which has the same beam hit you, but just not deal any damage and your character saying "dodge". And at high level, unlike the old days, now you're hit capped by default so the only way to actually reliable dodge is if you attack someone higher level than you where you can't hit them with any spells whatsoever besides luck.
And I can't recall any cutscenes with druid spells being dodged, maybe there's something in the books but I haven't read much any the ones focusing on druids like Malfurion.
And I can't recall any cutscenes with druid spells being dodged, maybe there's something in the books but I haven't read much any the ones focusing on druids like Malfurion.
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Actually I just checked, and you can't dodge spells. The dodge mechanic only encompasses melee attacks, spells miss (which is why you needed to be hit capped). So even game mechanics wise is iffy.
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Indeed, you cannot dodge spells in WoW, but that's obviously just game mechanics and not representative of the lore at all. Even then, I don't think anyone's ever dodged moonfire in lore. Or even used it in lore for that matter. The closest thing to that would be Tyrande using Starfall in a couple of cutscenes and ain't nobody dodging that. Not to mention that lightspeed Warcraft would be a hysterical outlier.
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Sure, games aren't always indicative of lore, but if game mechanics displayed something the lore doesn't necessarily cover I would accept it. However, the conversation is moot if spells can't be dodged in those mechanics.
Is there anything else that needs doing here? Particularly asking @DaReaperMan
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nope, then Deathwing is Hypersonic+ combat and reaction speed for being superior to Dread Infernals(i think it was calced at that)
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I tried digging when I said that, not happening cause I cant find it, would be good if you calculated it(the infernal balls falling from the sky I mean)
Udlmaster
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I'm unfashionably late as ever to respond, but yes, you can dodge spells, Rogues specifically have an ability that lets them dodge everything for a short while.
It's true you can't raise your Dodge anymore, as they removed that stat.
It's true you can't raise your Dodge anymore, as they removed that stat.
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unfortunately, Deathwing or anyone else for that matter doesn't have the tagging feat against rouges using evasion, and thus doesn't correlate to combat speed, only reactions.
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No you can't dodge spells. Evasion makes you dodge physical attacks only, they have a separate ability for being immune to spells called Cloak of Shadows. Which is a very specific spell that does a very specific thing for rogues, normal spells just miss they aren't dodged.
Here is what the mechanic dodge does in the game.
Here is what the mechanic dodge does in the game.
Udlmaster
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If so, that's a very new development and isn't representative of what can actually happen. What's more accurate are older versions of the game. Vanilla is the best example here since Blizzard have brought it back.
Resistances, Resisting, Dodging, deflecting etc. all applied to spells, because that's just basic logic.
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What?
Evasion didn't make you dodge spells in neither version of the game.
Here's the Classic version of the spell.
And here's what the Dodge mechanic does in Classic.
Evasion didn't make you dodge spells in neither version of the game.
Here's the Classic version of the spell.
And here's what the Dodge mechanic does in Classic.
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Lolno. There is absolutely no proof that older versions of the game are more lore-friendly. This is a complete fabrication.
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Udlmaster
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I wasn't talking about classic versions of the spell, I was talking about the mechanics in general.
Besides coming the most basic conclusion, yeah, the game itself is closer to what was shown in Lore than it does now, because the game has become more mechanically driven rather than built around the story.
Hence why Resistances were phased out, why spells can no longer be resisted or dodged.
Most of all because the Heroes of Azeroth are supposed to be the best of the best, ******** all over Cosmic beings like it's nothing.
I have no idea how you'd even come to the conclusion that the later games are more lore friendly when the lore has been shit on every expansion.
Inb4 the argument "Lore expansion bruh"
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I even linked the Dodge mechanic in Vanilla/Classic. You could never dodge spells in any version of the game. Resisting/missing/reflecting them are all completely separate mechanics that have nothing to do with them being dodged.
Udlmaster
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No, the mechanics of WOW in general, not evasion.
vanilla-wow.fandom.com
Dodge
Your chance to Dodge an attack is a percentage calculated using the following general formula: Dodge% = Base dodge + (AGI / AGI:Dodge ratio) + Miscellaneous contributions + ((Defense skill - Attacker's attack skill) * 0.04) Both the Base dodge and AGI:Dodge ratio values depend on the character's...
vanilla-wow.fandom.com
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And if you actually read what people write you will see that only applies to physical attacks.
It's even stated on the page you linked yourself
"Finally, the last part of the formula written above takes into account the "level" difference between the defender and the attacker, or to be more precise, the difference between the defender's Defense skill and the attacker's Attack skill, which translates into a Weapon skill for players, and level * 5 for monsters. Each point of Defense a player has over the attacker's Attack skill adds 0.04% Dodge; on the other hand, each point of Defense a player has below the attacker's Attack skill cuts 0.04% Dodge."
The equation itself needs to use the "defense" and "weapon skill" which are all physical attacks.
It's even stated on the page you linked yourself
"Finally, the last part of the formula written above takes into account the "level" difference between the defender and the attacker, or to be more precise, the difference between the defender's Defense skill and the attacker's Attack skill, which translates into a Weapon skill for players, and level * 5 for monsters. Each point of Defense a player has over the attacker's Attack skill adds 0.04% Dodge; on the other hand, each point of Defense a player has below the attacker's Attack skill cuts 0.04% Dodge."
The equation itself needs to use the "defense" and "weapon skill" which are all physical attacks.
Udlmaster
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Did you read near the bottom where "Spell hit" was an actual stat?
wowwiki.fandom.com
Do you even know anything about what you're talking about?
Spell hit
Spell hit is an attribute that increases a caster's chance to hit with offensive spells (healing abilities never miss, and are not affected by spell hit chance). Spells that fail to hit are shown as a "miss", and have no effect on their target.
wowwiki.fandom.com
Do you even know anything about what you're talking about?
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The most that you could get out of this line of thinking is that each and every expansion is the most accurate representation of the snapshot in time in which it happened. Nothing that you've stated here supports the notion that one expansion more accurately represents the whole lore of warcraft than all the others. So therefore, yes: Lore expansion, bruh.
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As you've already been very clearly told, spells miss, they are not dodged. There's a difference, obviously.Did you read near the bottom where "Spell hit" was an actual stat?
Spell hit
Spell hit is an attribute that increases a caster's chance to hit with offensive spells (healing abilities never miss, and are not affected by spell hit chance). Spells that fail to hit are shown as a "miss", and have no effect on their target.
Do you even know anything about what you're talking about?
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Did you even read that spell hit has nothing to do with dodging but you not hitting?
If when you fail to hit with a spell you specifically miss.
At least read your own sources before posting about something you clearly have no knowledge of
"Spell hit is a combat attribute that increases a caster's chance to hit with spells. Spell hit is primarily obtained from talents or gear that has hit rating. The more gear with hit rating a caster has the lower the chance the caster's spells will miss. With patch 3.0.2, spell hit is capped at 100%; with enough spell hit, it is possible to reach a state where it is impossible for your spells to miss."
"For casters, 1% of additional hit can amount to more than 1% additional damage statistically. This is due to mobs being able to partially resist your spells when you are bellow hit cap in addition to your miss rate."
If when you fail to hit with a spell you specifically miss.
At least read your own sources before posting about something you clearly have no knowledge of
"Spell hit is a combat attribute that increases a caster's chance to hit with spells. Spell hit is primarily obtained from talents or gear that has hit rating. The more gear with hit rating a caster has the lower the chance the caster's spells will miss. With patch 3.0.2, spell hit is capped at 100%; with enough spell hit, it is possible to reach a state where it is impossible for your spells to miss."
"For casters, 1% of additional hit can amount to more than 1% additional damage statistically. This is due to mobs being able to partially resist your spells when you are bellow hit cap in addition to your miss rate."
Udlmaster
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Spell Hit is measured against a NPC's dodge chance.
For example, In WOTLK you needed Spell Hit gear to measure against level 80 and above Elite Mobs who had an innate number that the system would measure the Mob's dodge v Spell hit.
Miss entails that a person can/did dodge. If I fire an arrow at you, and you dodge, that means I missed. The only difference here is that because of the limitation of the engine, Blizzard called them two different things which both have the same result and entail the same thing.
I can't believe you're being so anal about the word which entails the conclusion, literally the definition of nitpicking.
If you then go to say "Well, they never intended spells to miss" we know that's wrong, because the Writers went on to make the RPG, where Spells do literally get dodged with things like Evasion feats. It doesn't matter that the RPG is non-canon, because it just confirms to us that Blizzard, the Writers and Headwriters do consider spells dodgible.
You're just being incredibly nit-picky.
For example, In WOTLK you needed Spell Hit gear to measure against level 80 and above Elite Mobs who had an innate number that the system would measure the Mob's dodge v Spell hit.
Miss entails that a person can/did dodge. If I fire an arrow at you, and you dodge, that means I missed. The only difference here is that because of the limitation of the engine, Blizzard called them two different things which both have the same result and entail the same thing.
I can't believe you're being so anal about the word which entails the conclusion, literally the definition of nitpicking.
If you then go to say "Well, they never intended spells to miss" we know that's wrong, because the Writers went on to make the RPG, where Spells do literally get dodged with things like Evasion feats. It doesn't matter that the RPG is non-canon, because it just confirms to us that Blizzard, the Writers and Headwriters do consider spells dodgible.
You're just being incredibly nit-picky.
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Spell Hit being measured against an NPC/Player's dodge chance is a complete fabrication. It's based on the level difference and completely dependent on the caster's abilities and not the mob/player. This is even stated in the same page you yourself linked
The spell hit mechanic has been confirmed by Blizzard CM Eyonix.[1] Base chance to hit is based on level difference between caster and target, starting at 96% for equal levels, and going up or down from there, capping at a maximum 100%. Furthermore, the chance to hit is different for mobs (PvE) and player (PvP) targets.
This isn't "nit-pickying", it's just objectively not how spell interactions works.
The spell hit mechanic has been confirmed by Blizzard CM Eyonix.[1] Base chance to hit is based on level difference between caster and target, starting at 96% for equal levels, and going up or down from there, capping at a maximum 100%. Furthermore, the chance to hit is different for mobs (PvE) and player (PvP) targets.
This isn't "nit-pickying", it's just objectively not how spell interactions works.
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Oh, it most definitely does. Declaring something non-canon means that you literally no longer, or have never, consider said thing to be valid to the overall setting of a given franchise.
Udlmaster
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Actually no, you misunderstand, the value you brought up was what I was talking about, you seem to be misinformed about the Mob not playing a factor because the Mob's level is a factor you brought up yourself, so you debunked yourself there.
But there's also the status of the Mob, is it Elite, Rare, Rare Elite or even Boss (Level ??).
Spell hit gear
This article has been tagged among the Pages that need revision. This guide is intended to list gear for cloth spellcasters preparing for end-game raiding, by listing gear from normal and heroic instances, as well as easier raid instances, like Naxxramas, Obsidian Sanctum and the Eye of...
vanilla-wow.fandom.com
Avoidance
Avoidance refers to a player's ability to completely nullify certain attacks. For melee, dodge, parry, and miss are all different ways to avoid the attack. For spells, resistance can raise your chance to completely avoid an attack. Bubbles from items and abilities, such as [Power Word: Shield]...
wow.gamepedia.com
Miss comes under that category which says: "Avoidance refers to a player's ability to completely nullify certain attacks. For melee, dodge, parry, and miss are all different ways to avoid the attack. For spells, resistance can raise your chance to completely avoid an attack."
If we check "Resistance" it says: "For spells that have a non-damage effect—such as slow, root, stun—you'll either take the hit or avoid the hit altogether; these are examples of binary spells. The average resistance is the chance you'll totally avoid the hit. Adding the word "average" is a little redundant in this case."
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You keep using things that you don't know what they mean.
I don't misunderstand, that's literally how spell hit works. I've provided evidence both from the game and the same sources you yourself linked.
I have no idea why you linked Spell Hit gear? Except if you were trying to debunk yourself. That does nothing but prove my point, spell hit is entirely dependent on the caster's abilities not the opposition. If you have 100% hit as a level 1 (which is impossible, but theoretically) you could hit much higher level enemies. That has nothing to do with the enemy mob/player having an inherent "dodge chance" that you claim that exists, which you haven't even proven just stated.
And then you link Avoidance, which is extremely funny because it has nothing to do with this discussion. Since you don' t know what Avoidance does and you're just going from the name "avoid = dodge", let me elaborate. Avoidance in World of Warcraft just reduces damage from Area of Effect attacks. That's it. It has nothing to do with "avoiding" them it has nothing to do with "dodging" them, it just reduces their damage.
Also since you seem to be using the fact that they used the word "avoid an attack" on a wiki article as a metaphor to say that the character isn't getting affected by a spell. This is how resistence works in World of Warcraft, stated in one of the sources which, again, you yourself linked but didn't even bother to read.
"Spell resistance has a separate effect that is considered in addition to spell hit chance, and is based on a resistance stat for a specific school. In general a certain amount of resistance will mitigate a certain percentage of damage from a magic school. For binary spells that do not partially resist, the resistance mitigation is combined with the spell hit chance to give an overall percentage for the spell to land or be resisted. The chance to hit is multiplied by the mitigation factor from the resistance to give an overall chance to hit. For the following formula, B is base chance to hit with spells, H is increased chance to hit from gear and talents, and R is the mitigation factor given from resistance."
For example, a caster with 6% increased chance to hit, attacking a mob 3 levels higher (83% base chance) that has enough resistance to mitigate 50% of spell damage, the overall chance to hit with a binary spell is 44.5%
Also before you use the "chance to hit" here as an argument for "see they have dodge chance". No. Refer to the above explanation of how you calculate chance to hit. Absolutely nothing to do with dodging. Just damage mitigation + level differential.
I don't misunderstand, that's literally how spell hit works. I've provided evidence both from the game and the same sources you yourself linked.
I have no idea why you linked Spell Hit gear? Except if you were trying to debunk yourself. That does nothing but prove my point, spell hit is entirely dependent on the caster's abilities not the opposition. If you have 100% hit as a level 1 (which is impossible, but theoretically) you could hit much higher level enemies. That has nothing to do with the enemy mob/player having an inherent "dodge chance" that you claim that exists, which you haven't even proven just stated.
And then you link Avoidance, which is extremely funny because it has nothing to do with this discussion. Since you don' t know what Avoidance does and you're just going from the name "avoid = dodge", let me elaborate. Avoidance in World of Warcraft just reduces damage from Area of Effect attacks. That's it. It has nothing to do with "avoiding" them it has nothing to do with "dodging" them, it just reduces their damage.
Also since you seem to be using the fact that they used the word "avoid an attack" on a wiki article as a metaphor to say that the character isn't getting affected by a spell. This is how resistence works in World of Warcraft, stated in one of the sources which, again, you yourself linked but didn't even bother to read.
"Spell resistance has a separate effect that is considered in addition to spell hit chance, and is based on a resistance stat for a specific school. In general a certain amount of resistance will mitigate a certain percentage of damage from a magic school. For binary spells that do not partially resist, the resistance mitigation is combined with the spell hit chance to give an overall percentage for the spell to land or be resisted. The chance to hit is multiplied by the mitigation factor from the resistance to give an overall chance to hit. For the following formula, B is base chance to hit with spells, H is increased chance to hit from gear and talents, and R is the mitigation factor given from resistance."
For example, a caster with 6% increased chance to hit, attacking a mob 3 levels higher (83% base chance) that has enough resistance to mitigate 50% of spell damage, the overall chance to hit with a binary spell is 44.5%
Also before you use the "chance to hit" here as an argument for "see they have dodge chance". No. Refer to the above explanation of how you calculate chance to hit. Absolutely nothing to do with dodging. Just damage mitigation + level differential.
Udlmaster
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I already addressed the naming part of your argument, I'm not going to go ad nauseum with you again on it.
This is more compounded by the fact that my citations literally states that a level 80 v Level 80 Elite has a chance to miss their target based purely on the Elite's intrinsic value.
an expression that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to possess similar characteristics:
[ C ] "A heart of stone" is a metaphor.
dictionary.cambridge.org
The word you're looking for is Synonym, but you didn't use that word, because it debunks you, so you'd rather just be wrong than concede.
Not really, you didn't bother to read my point that not only does Level play a factor but the creature's class does (Elite, Rare, Rare Elite, Boss) you seemingly ignored that to say "Nah, all about the player." which was debunked by your own argument that creatures intrinsically have values.
This is more compounded by the fact that my citations literally states that a level 80 v Level 80 Elite has a chance to miss their target based purely on the Elite's intrinsic value.
That's not what I cited, this is an Equivocation fallacy. I literally LINKED where I was drawing "Avoidance" from. It's incredibly intellectually dishonest of you to ignore my citation and then substitute it with your own.
I don't think you know what a Metaphor is:
an expression that describes a person or object by referring to something that is considered to possess similar characteristics:
[ C ] "A heart of stone" is a metaphor.
metaphor
1. an expression, often found in literature, that describes a person or object…
dictionary.cambridge.org
The word you're looking for is Synonym, but you didn't use that word, because it debunks you, so you'd rather just be wrong than concede.
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