- 10,285
- 2,761
This is an accuracy thread. Speculation for future matches happen on the other thread.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
- Status
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #42
@Abyss
Let's break this down, shall we?
"...Carnage Should have won..."
Sadly, no. As Dark Carnage wasn't a thing yet (and wouldn't count anyway since that's major outside help), it's EoS "Long Horn" Lucy vs Base Carnage. As such, High 8-C Carnage is being turned to paste every time by High 7-A minimum Lucy. Also, while Carnage can keep up at Spider-Man, who at fastest without Spider-Sense is at Mach 7535.8. Lucy at her best can move her Vectors at Mach 80,577.1. Lucy can attack 10.7x faster than Carnage can react. It also doesn't help that Carnage can't see them. Smacking and ripping him apart not working? Nuke him. The heat is far above anything Carnage has ever taken and will evaporate his blood in less than a second. Carnage stands no chance.
"...bowser has no way to kill Ganon so that should be correct..."
Since it's only Triforce of Power Ganondorf, it's a High 4-C max Ganon vs a 4-A Bowser. His safety against everything except holy magic won't apply to physical force that far above anything he's ever taken. Believing otherwise is major NLF. Also, Bowser in that form moves at minimum 0.46c. Bowser can move at 820 TRILLION c. That's a 1.77 QUADRILLION times speed difference. Yeah, Ganon is dead in a millisecond.
"...doomsday already built up resistance to blunt force attacks I doubt the hulk can put him down for good..."
Keyword being resistance. Doomsday may be harder to punch to death, but it's not impossible to do so. Especially when the person you're punching is way more powerful than you. DD is around Superman's level in most incarnations and we have Supes at about 6.9 KiloFOE. To find Worldbreaker Hulk's power, we scale him from Sentry, who can casually knockout Thor with energy blasts, who in turn can hit at about 6.61 KiloFOE by himself. Knocking out casually should take at least 3 times durability, so that means Hulk should be sitting around 19.83 KiloFOE and his AP only gets higher over time. While DD is much faster than Hulk, DD does not dodge in character and most people speed blitz him but have trouble with his durability. As such, Hulk just keeps hitting until Doomsday doesn't get back up. Even if DD hits Hulk enough to kill him, he can get back up immediately with the Green Door and keep going. DD takes days at minimum to get back up. Therefore, Hulk wins ultimately. It'll take a while and the planet they're on will be space dust, but Hulk would ultimately win.
"frank west with prep destroys Leon with The powers of Dante/Morrigan/Akuma/Bison/ and the magic wand."
First, prep is not a thing in DB unless explicitly stated. If Frank gets prep, so does Leon. Second, the costumes do not give you the actual power of the ones you're dressing up as. If that were true, you would one-shot every boss in DR4, which is not the case. The most powerful tool in Frank's arsenal is the exo-suit, but the RL Special turns it to scrap in one shot. Also, Leon reacts much faster than Frank, runs faster in base, and has far more experience and training against much more powerful opponents. Frank can't win this.
Let's break this down, shall we?
"...Carnage Should have won..."
Sadly, no. As Dark Carnage wasn't a thing yet (and wouldn't count anyway since that's major outside help), it's EoS "Long Horn" Lucy vs Base Carnage. As such, High 8-C Carnage is being turned to paste every time by High 7-A minimum Lucy. Also, while Carnage can keep up at Spider-Man, who at fastest without Spider-Sense is at Mach 7535.8. Lucy at her best can move her Vectors at Mach 80,577.1. Lucy can attack 10.7x faster than Carnage can react. It also doesn't help that Carnage can't see them. Smacking and ripping him apart not working? Nuke him. The heat is far above anything Carnage has ever taken and will evaporate his blood in less than a second. Carnage stands no chance.
"...bowser has no way to kill Ganon so that should be correct..."
Since it's only Triforce of Power Ganondorf, it's a High 4-C max Ganon vs a 4-A Bowser. His safety against everything except holy magic won't apply to physical force that far above anything he's ever taken. Believing otherwise is major NLF. Also, Bowser in that form moves at minimum 0.46c. Bowser can move at 820 TRILLION c. That's a 1.77 QUADRILLION times speed difference. Yeah, Ganon is dead in a millisecond.
"...doomsday already built up resistance to blunt force attacks I doubt the hulk can put him down for good..."
Keyword being resistance. Doomsday may be harder to punch to death, but it's not impossible to do so. Especially when the person you're punching is way more powerful than you. DD is around Superman's level in most incarnations and we have Supes at about 6.9 KiloFOE. To find Worldbreaker Hulk's power, we scale him from Sentry, who can casually knockout Thor with energy blasts, who in turn can hit at about 6.61 KiloFOE by himself. Knocking out casually should take at least 3 times durability, so that means Hulk should be sitting around 19.83 KiloFOE and his AP only gets higher over time. While DD is much faster than Hulk, DD does not dodge in character and most people speed blitz him but have trouble with his durability. As such, Hulk just keeps hitting until Doomsday doesn't get back up. Even if DD hits Hulk enough to kill him, he can get back up immediately with the Green Door and keep going. DD takes days at minimum to get back up. Therefore, Hulk wins ultimately. It'll take a while and the planet they're on will be space dust, but Hulk would ultimately win.
"frank west with prep destroys Leon with The powers of Dante/Morrigan/Akuma/Bison/ and the magic wand."
First, prep is not a thing in DB unless explicitly stated. If Frank gets prep, so does Leon. Second, the costumes do not give you the actual power of the ones you're dressing up as. If that were true, you would one-shot every boss in DR4, which is not the case. The most powerful tool in Frank's arsenal is the exo-suit, but the RL Special turns it to scrap in one shot. Also, Leon reacts much faster than Frank, runs faster in base, and has far more experience and training against much more powerful opponents. Frank can't win this.
- 1,789
- 356
Also bowser surviving the black hole feat is debatable as he could have just died and just been brought back after What’s her face reset the universe or whatever Frank West in Dante costume can move and fire much faster than Leon And it’s obvious that he does get their powers as he can perform psycho crushers hadukens The raging demon and teleport And the not one shoting bosses could just be a game mechanic / balancing also are we going to ignore how carnage is superior to Venom and Spider-Man and venom has 7-b durability from upgrades?Also spidy sense?Stealth? Literally normal people have dodged Lucy’s vectors
Last edited:
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #45
1. That's just Mario Galaxy. Bowser withstood and escaped from a black hole several times in the Peach's Castle of Fury boss fight in Bowser's Inside Story.
2. Cool. The weakest of his costumes' inspirations can destroy mountains. The costumes show no such power in the game. Also, the possibility for a theoretical battle where Frank starts with a costume that increases his speed to a point where he can blitz Leon before being shot/stabbed/blown up are slim.
2. Cool. The weakest of his costumes' inspirations can destroy mountains. The costumes show no such power in the game. Also, the possibility for a theoretical battle where Frank starts with a costume that increases his speed to a point where he can blitz Leon before being shot/stabbed/blown up are slim.
- 10,285
- 2,761
Well, I’m convinced. Wally does win with BFR into the Speed Force. There is nothing Archie can do if that is Wally’s opening move. FateHax wouldn’t help him either.
- 1,789
- 356
I thought the Mario and Luigi games aren’t the same continuity as New super Mario Bros,64,Galaxy,And odyssey also Sonya blade vs Cammy is correct as Sonya’s drones and other tech overwhelms Cammy the Mario vs sonic guy vs almight should be a draw as 8 gates would kill guy too Taokaka put up good fight against terumi In his oroboros mode or whatever shouldn’t she get some scaling to him?
- 34
- 14
The Mario & Luigi games are generally considered consistent with the main series, so that's why DB includes them. (That's also why they don't include things such as Paper Mario)
As for All Might vs Might Guy, yes, Guy does die after using the 8th gate, but he demolishes All Might long before that can happen
- 557
- 1,443
Yeah, DB did say that Guy doesn't need 8th gate to win, he can win with the earlier gates. But for animation purposes, of course they're gonna have him go 8th gate.
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #51
@Abyss
Bowser vs Ganon:
They directly reference Bowser's Inside Story and the Peach's Castle fight in the video. At 2:42:
Boomstick: ...even grow at will to be as big as a castle. Which is also a Transformer.
As Victi stated above, the M&L games generally fit the Mario power level mold, so they allow it. So yes, Bowser has survived black holes many times. Even if he didn't, he's still 1.7 QUADRILLION times faster and several million times stronger than Ganon. Bowser wins.
Frank vs Leon:
The Exo-Suit is confirmed to be the most powerful weapon in Dead Rising 4, putting it well above what the costumes can do. It's still stuck in the 9-A range. Still one-shot by the RL Special. Regardless, whichever form Frank takes, Leon is 3.6x as fast as Frank's fastest form at worst, has much more training and experience, and Frank has proven to not be able to dodge bullets. Leon wins. If you have calculable proof that Frank's costumes can let him move at speeds over Mach 2, I will gladly look it over and reconsider. However, for now, Frank is still at a major disadvantage since most of his arsenal relies on prep, which DB doesn't give.
Carnage vs Lucy:
Carnage doesn't have Spider-Sense, none of the symbiotes do. Spidey can't sense them that way because of the symbiotes keeping some of his powers, which makes his brain go "Oh, I sense myself over there. I'm not a danger to myself, I'll ignore the me over there." Also, when Carnage wants to fight, he doesn't use stealth much in character. If he wants to make a quick kill or sneak away? Sure. If he wants to mutilate someone? Crazy man, front and center. As for power, 7-B Venom hasn't been fully confirmed. Even though I've advocated for a Venom upgrade due to the High 7-C sonic attack he endured, the symbiote barely survived it. In addition, since bonding with a host increases a symbiote's power, and Venom is theoretically 7-B, how could Luke Cage, who is higher High 8-C, rag doll him without much effort? Until 7-B Venom is fully confirmed, that seems to be an outlier. Regardless, when Lucy is going all out, she is 10.7x faster than Carnage, attacking him with invisible Vectors, hits 271.9 MILLION times harder AT MINIMUM than anything he's ever taken (even if we scale him to 7-B, she's still 12.1x stronger at best for Carnage), and can nuke him into oblivion. Carnage can't win.
Sonya vs Cammie:
No they don't. While Sonya and Cammie are roughly comparable in speed at best (or Cammie is 1.79x faster at worst), the main difference is power. Sonya sits at about 2.54 tons of TNT. Cammie is at 5163. That's a 2,032.7x difference in strength. One poke from Cammie turns Sonya to goo. As Cammie is also fast enough to dodge bullets, the drones don't matter. Cammie wins handily.
Guy vs All-Might:
As DB rules state, "A Death Battle, as entitled, has to end with the loser dying...If both (or all) combatants die, then the first combatant that dies loses and the last combatant that dies wins" As All-Might would die way before Guy runs out of life force, then it would still be Guy's win.
Felicia vs Taokaka:
If that happened after 2011, no. We judge DBs based on when they were released, which for this fight was March 29th, 2011. As Central Fiction, where Taokaka got her power boost by scaling, was released in 2015, she's stuck at High 7-C for this fight. While Taokaka is faster, she can't hurt 6-B Felicia and has much lower stamina. She would eventually get tired and Felicia can make the killing blow.
Bowser vs Ganon:
They directly reference Bowser's Inside Story and the Peach's Castle fight in the video. At 2:42:
Boomstick: ...even grow at will to be as big as a castle. Which is also a Transformer.
As Victi stated above, the M&L games generally fit the Mario power level mold, so they allow it. So yes, Bowser has survived black holes many times. Even if he didn't, he's still 1.7 QUADRILLION times faster and several million times stronger than Ganon. Bowser wins.
Frank vs Leon:
The Exo-Suit is confirmed to be the most powerful weapon in Dead Rising 4, putting it well above what the costumes can do. It's still stuck in the 9-A range. Still one-shot by the RL Special. Regardless, whichever form Frank takes, Leon is 3.6x as fast as Frank's fastest form at worst, has much more training and experience, and Frank has proven to not be able to dodge bullets. Leon wins. If you have calculable proof that Frank's costumes can let him move at speeds over Mach 2, I will gladly look it over and reconsider. However, for now, Frank is still at a major disadvantage since most of his arsenal relies on prep, which DB doesn't give.
Carnage vs Lucy:
Carnage doesn't have Spider-Sense, none of the symbiotes do. Spidey can't sense them that way because of the symbiotes keeping some of his powers, which makes his brain go "Oh, I sense myself over there. I'm not a danger to myself, I'll ignore the me over there." Also, when Carnage wants to fight, he doesn't use stealth much in character. If he wants to make a quick kill or sneak away? Sure. If he wants to mutilate someone? Crazy man, front and center. As for power, 7-B Venom hasn't been fully confirmed. Even though I've advocated for a Venom upgrade due to the High 7-C sonic attack he endured, the symbiote barely survived it. In addition, since bonding with a host increases a symbiote's power, and Venom is theoretically 7-B, how could Luke Cage, who is higher High 8-C, rag doll him without much effort? Until 7-B Venom is fully confirmed, that seems to be an outlier. Regardless, when Lucy is going all out, she is 10.7x faster than Carnage, attacking him with invisible Vectors, hits 271.9 MILLION times harder AT MINIMUM than anything he's ever taken (even if we scale him to 7-B, she's still 12.1x stronger at best for Carnage), and can nuke him into oblivion. Carnage can't win.
Sonya vs Cammie:
No they don't. While Sonya and Cammie are roughly comparable in speed at best (or Cammie is 1.79x faster at worst), the main difference is power. Sonya sits at about 2.54 tons of TNT. Cammie is at 5163. That's a 2,032.7x difference in strength. One poke from Cammie turns Sonya to goo. As Cammie is also fast enough to dodge bullets, the drones don't matter. Cammie wins handily.
Guy vs All-Might:
As DB rules state, "A Death Battle, as entitled, has to end with the loser dying...If both (or all) combatants die, then the first combatant that dies loses and the last combatant that dies wins" As All-Might would die way before Guy runs out of life force, then it would still be Guy's win.
Felicia vs Taokaka:
If that happened after 2011, no. We judge DBs based on when they were released, which for this fight was March 29th, 2011. As Central Fiction, where Taokaka got her power boost by scaling, was released in 2015, she's stuck at High 7-C for this fight. While Taokaka is faster, she can't hurt 6-B Felicia and has much lower stamina. She would eventually get tired and Felicia can make the killing blow.
- 2,548
- 2,146
Sighs
The amount of times this is taken out of context is just making me feel very annoyed.
Bandou was the ONLY Non-Diclonius to have done so, and the guy is HEAVILY IMPLIED to have ESP and is NOT just some normal human. And he needed prior knowledge, a fuckload of preparation time (6 ******* months of it, my guy), and more experience fighting other Diclonii for that to even be possible. Not to mention, this was way before she started getting massively stronger, and the fact that she was overconfident & cocky because she had previously beat him (she only gets arrogant & cocky in re-matches) just makes things worse.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,381
- 9,048
For ****'s sake, Bandou is certainly not a normal Human.
- 1,789
- 356
Doesn’t Sonya use plasma weapons? She literally amplifies her punches with them as well as firing them.Wouldn’t raiden scale to Superman?Who both defeated Dark Khan?
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,381
- 9,048
I'm pretty sure Mortal Kombat vs DC isn't Canon.
- 1,789
- 356
They literally bring it up numerous times in the injustice intros and mkx/mk11 intros
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #57
1. Sonya has her energy orbs, but not sure it's plasma. Even if it is, it doesn't let her hit hard enough to make up for the over 2,000x power difference.
2. MK vs DC is not canon, just like the individual fights/ladders of Injustice/MK. They can do sly winks at the camera and reference their other works, sure, tons of shows and movies do similar things. However, just because Injustice brought in Sub-Zero and Raiden for Injustice 2 as guest characters and they make a reference to MK vs DC in a one-off fight does not mean the game is canon
2. MK vs DC is not canon, just like the individual fights/ladders of Injustice/MK. They can do sly winks at the camera and reference their other works, sure, tons of shows and movies do similar things. However, just because Injustice brought in Sub-Zero and Raiden for Injustice 2 as guest characters and they make a reference to MK vs DC in a one-off fight does not mean the game is canon
- 906
- 42
- 14,018
- 14,192
MK vs DC is canon, it was confirmed as well, let alone the ammount of mentions towards each other and the crossover too, at this point you cant say no to this, as its legit
Injustice 2 says how Subzero and Raiden arrived there and from dialogues it shows too, they get there straight from MKX story, MK11 Raiden points out going to a strange unjust world, Subzero replies about a dark knight and a caped wonder being from that world, Cetrion then tells to Subzero they went there for real when he asked her if he and Raiden actually went to Injustice
Superman and Raiden are comparable to each other, depending on which side you went for, their battle vs each other ends with the character of the chosen side as winner, its 50/50 on that
Meanwhile Shao Kahn and Darkseid are depicted as comparable too, official image shows both duking out against the other
Injustice 2 says how Subzero and Raiden arrived there and from dialogues it shows too, they get there straight from MKX story, MK11 Raiden points out going to a strange unjust world, Subzero replies about a dark knight and a caped wonder being from that world, Cetrion then tells to Subzero they went there for real when he asked her if he and Raiden actually went to Injustice
Superman and Raiden are comparable to each other, depending on which side you went for, their battle vs each other ends with the character of the chosen side as winner, its 50/50 on that
Meanwhile Shao Kahn and Darkseid are depicted as comparable too, official image shows both duking out against the other
- 1,789
- 356
Also the GL vs Ben 10 had a lot of flawed research like how the omnitrix would not let Ben be killed in such a way as well as ignoring the sodabro effect and forgetting that alien X EE is instant And how they neglected to mention the possibility of Ben going toepick and inflicting fear on Hal so he can’t use his ring or dismantling it With upgrade or draining the battery with feed back or the fact that the green lantern ring has a setting that doesn’t allow green lanterns to kill unless they receive the green light to use lethal force as seen in the fight with superboy prime not saying the result was wrong but the animation and research was not the best
- 22,748
- 49,428
they mention the sotobro effect in the Q&A also
>Hal fought the Embodiment of Fear toepick wouldn't done shit to Hal who's main schtick is overcoming fear
>Hal Ring is made of pure will power meaning upgrade wouldn't be able to hack it plus even ignoring that The ring has defenses against other trying to hack into along with Doctor Manhattan being unable to affect the ring
>Hal has dealt with Being with energy absorption before hell there's a scan of him getting it back
>Green lantern no kill rule was changed in the sinestro corps war storyline meaning they have access to kill plus in DB Killing is allowed that shit wouldn't mattered
>Alien X EE wouldn't mattered GL like kilowog resisted Multiverse EE which was far above what X could effect meaning it wouldn't mattered in the fight
- 1,789
- 356
DB response To the sotabro effect was complete Garbo and that rule is still a thing just that it exempts Sinestro core members and they used different iterations of Hal and even feats from other characters Why didn’t they use one version instead of cherry picking things like how they did with goku vs Superman they also fail to include The possibility of Pesky Dust Sleep and dream manip, NRG being intangible,Atomic-X in general, Big Chill phasing through Hal and freezing him from the inside,Clockwork aging Hal to dust,Or Ben going into ghostfreak possessing Hal and removing his ring, or the possibility of him just stalling until Hal runs out of battery speaking of which couldn’t clockwork accelerate time to make Hal’s ring lose all of its energy?
Last edited:
- 22,748
- 49,428
Hal is far faster and literally resist majority of Ben’s hax anyway not to mention Hal Having Hax that counters all of them
Not to mention Hal has overided the The no kill shit before which means nothing
Also they didn’t cherry pick shit Hal was still the same guy from the Pre crisis era the only difference was his powers tone down
Ya nitpicks screams of some shitty YouTuber debunk videos
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #64
@Black
Looking it up, yes, MK vs DC is confirmed canon by Netherrealm. However, it seems wildly inconsistent with its power. If the characters involved are MK and Injustice respectively, then its two Low 6-Bs somehow defeating a 2-C Dark Khan. In the aftermath, with Darkseid and Shao Kahn ending up in the opposite universe, both end up losing their powers. The Omega Effect is confirmed to work in multiple universes, yet it disappears. On top of that, Sonya in MK vs DC beats Catwoman, Shazam, then GL, but is knocked out by Shazam before losing to GL later and getting her ass kicked by Joker (the normal one, not the one who took the pill that lets you match Superman). The power on display there is not consistent in the slightest.
That gripe aside, even with MK vs DC being canon, Sonya has never shown power on that Low 6-B level before or since, so she's still stuck at High 8-C
@Abyss
Yeah, Tipper summed it up pretty well. They addressed all of your nitpicks and more in the Ben vs Hal QnA. I'll post it here to look over, but they answered everything by combining Pre and Post Crisis Hal. Keep in mind, I was skeptical of the Pre/Post mixing, which is why I questioned which era certain evidence comics came out of
Looking it up, yes, MK vs DC is confirmed canon by Netherrealm. However, it seems wildly inconsistent with its power. If the characters involved are MK and Injustice respectively, then its two Low 6-Bs somehow defeating a 2-C Dark Khan. In the aftermath, with Darkseid and Shao Kahn ending up in the opposite universe, both end up losing their powers. The Omega Effect is confirmed to work in multiple universes, yet it disappears. On top of that, Sonya in MK vs DC beats Catwoman, Shazam, then GL, but is knocked out by Shazam before losing to GL later and getting her ass kicked by Joker (the normal one, not the one who took the pill that lets you match Superman). The power on display there is not consistent in the slightest.
That gripe aside, even with MK vs DC being canon, Sonya has never shown power on that Low 6-B level before or since, so she's still stuck at High 8-C
@Abyss
Yeah, Tipper summed it up pretty well. They addressed all of your nitpicks and more in the Ben vs Hal QnA. I'll post it here to look over, but they answered everything by combining Pre and Post Crisis Hal. Keep in mind, I was skeptical of the Pre/Post mixing, which is why I questioned which era certain evidence comics came out of
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #65
Why didn't you use more of Ben's aliens?
Fight would have been too long, wanted to show the classics that everyone loves, and the animation budget would have been destroyed.
Why couldn't Upgrade take control of Hal's ring?
Hal's passive forcefield would keep Upgrade out, plus Doctor Manhattan couldn't quite figure out how it works, so Upgrade stood no chance. (they showed comic panels where Guy's ring was destroyed by Manhattan and he made that comment)
What about Feedback or Chromastone?
They could absorb the energy, sure, but Hal could yank it right back (they showed a Pre-Crisis comic I think for this {Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan})
Clockwork?
He has time hax, but so does Hal, and Clockwork would get his ass kicked pretty quickly.
You compared Hal's speed to XLR8, shouldn't it have been Jetray since he's faster?
XLR8 is more well-known and Jetray enters hyperspace to fly as fast as he can (Accoring to the Ultimate Alien episode "Eye of the Beholder"), which is basically using a wormhole, so it's not super combat applicable.
Couldn't Ben clone himself with Echo-Echo to have more aliens?
He did something like that in the Alien Force episode "Duped," but it split his personality apart and their teamwork was awful, so it would have gotten him killed.
The creators of Ben 10 said Alien X is a multiversal being, why wasn't that mentioned?
Because it was a blog post that said the Celestialsapiens would have to work together as a group to stop the destruction of the Omniverse and would perish if they didn't agree or were unaware. It's also not supported by canon.
The energy feedback should have been activated when Hal cut off Ben's arm, right?
What triggers the Omnitrix fighting back is kind of unclear, but it usually happens only when the watch itself is attacked, not when bodily harm happens to Ben, such as when Vilgax attempted to cut off Ben's arm in the Season 1 finale. Also, the pulse isn't strong unless it charges. A side point, while the Omnitrix reacted to the Big Bang, Hal's faster than that (Liam, the head writer for the episode, did a calculation for the Omnitrix's reaction speed from the Big Bang event and stuff Hal's done, 13 trillion SOL for Omnitrix and 400 novemdecillion for Hal)
If Batman could take the ring off of Hal, why couldn't Ben?
Hal wasn't paying attention at the time, it wouldn't happen if he was in an active fight.
Hal's ring has a time limit and the Omnitrix does not, so wouldn't Hal eventually lose, right?
That plot point only happens if Hal's against someone at his level and they are at a stalemate. He had most of the advantages here outside of Alien X. (Liam also stated here that X never actually erased someone from existence and stated rings have defended against Crisis)
The Omnitrix won't let Ben die, so how did that happen?
The failsafe is wildly inconsistent, not perfect, and Hal can move way faster than the Omnitrix can react. Also, Ben has died in the show before and in other timelines. The failsafe appeared once in the final episode and never activated in any of the other dozens of times it would have been needed beforehand.
Hal can't time travel, so why could he here?
He did in Green Lantern #137 (looks Pre-Crisis to me), and other Green Lanterns have attempted it before (Some Lantern in Green Lantern Quarterly #2 {again, looks Pre-Crisis to me} wanted to try this to gain charge time).
Wouldn't the Sodobro Effect kick in for Alien X?
It's never shown in the show that Ben knows about the effect (Paradox explained it to No-Watch Ben), Paradox brings it up because he was worried Eon would notice No-Watch Clockwork, and Paradox and No-Watch travel through time multiple times without Eon interfering, so it doesn't seem to really matter.
Liam then addresses the power gap and does say X is universal, but he points out Hal has universe feats like stopping the U-Bomb while boosted (but at his best he can overpower the Central Battery because he once defeated Ion, yadda yadda), matched Dr. Polaris' control of the universes' magnetic pull (Pre-Crisis), and hurt Captain Atom who could make a universe in a nanosecond (definitely Pre-Crisis), plus he's equal to Kyle who stopped a Big Bang that was bigger than ours (apparently 10 billions times more energy than ours), so there we go.
Fight would have been too long, wanted to show the classics that everyone loves, and the animation budget would have been destroyed.
Why couldn't Upgrade take control of Hal's ring?
Hal's passive forcefield would keep Upgrade out, plus Doctor Manhattan couldn't quite figure out how it works, so Upgrade stood no chance. (they showed comic panels where Guy's ring was destroyed by Manhattan and he made that comment)
What about Feedback or Chromastone?
They could absorb the energy, sure, but Hal could yank it right back (they showed a Pre-Crisis comic I think for this {Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan})
Clockwork?
He has time hax, but so does Hal, and Clockwork would get his ass kicked pretty quickly.
You compared Hal's speed to XLR8, shouldn't it have been Jetray since he's faster?
XLR8 is more well-known and Jetray enters hyperspace to fly as fast as he can (Accoring to the Ultimate Alien episode "Eye of the Beholder"), which is basically using a wormhole, so it's not super combat applicable.
Couldn't Ben clone himself with Echo-Echo to have more aliens?
He did something like that in the Alien Force episode "Duped," but it split his personality apart and their teamwork was awful, so it would have gotten him killed.
The creators of Ben 10 said Alien X is a multiversal being, why wasn't that mentioned?
Because it was a blog post that said the Celestialsapiens would have to work together as a group to stop the destruction of the Omniverse and would perish if they didn't agree or were unaware. It's also not supported by canon.
The energy feedback should have been activated when Hal cut off Ben's arm, right?
What triggers the Omnitrix fighting back is kind of unclear, but it usually happens only when the watch itself is attacked, not when bodily harm happens to Ben, such as when Vilgax attempted to cut off Ben's arm in the Season 1 finale. Also, the pulse isn't strong unless it charges. A side point, while the Omnitrix reacted to the Big Bang, Hal's faster than that (Liam, the head writer for the episode, did a calculation for the Omnitrix's reaction speed from the Big Bang event and stuff Hal's done, 13 trillion SOL for Omnitrix and 400 novemdecillion for Hal)
If Batman could take the ring off of Hal, why couldn't Ben?
Hal wasn't paying attention at the time, it wouldn't happen if he was in an active fight.
Hal's ring has a time limit and the Omnitrix does not, so wouldn't Hal eventually lose, right?
That plot point only happens if Hal's against someone at his level and they are at a stalemate. He had most of the advantages here outside of Alien X. (Liam also stated here that X never actually erased someone from existence and stated rings have defended against Crisis)
The Omnitrix won't let Ben die, so how did that happen?
The failsafe is wildly inconsistent, not perfect, and Hal can move way faster than the Omnitrix can react. Also, Ben has died in the show before and in other timelines. The failsafe appeared once in the final episode and never activated in any of the other dozens of times it would have been needed beforehand.
Hal can't time travel, so why could he here?
He did in Green Lantern #137 (looks Pre-Crisis to me), and other Green Lanterns have attempted it before (Some Lantern in Green Lantern Quarterly #2 {again, looks Pre-Crisis to me} wanted to try this to gain charge time).
Wouldn't the Sodobro Effect kick in for Alien X?
It's never shown in the show that Ben knows about the effect (Paradox explained it to No-Watch Ben), Paradox brings it up because he was worried Eon would notice No-Watch Clockwork, and Paradox and No-Watch travel through time multiple times without Eon interfering, so it doesn't seem to really matter.
Liam then addresses the power gap and does say X is universal, but he points out Hal has universe feats like stopping the U-Bomb while boosted (but at his best he can overpower the Central Battery because he once defeated Ion, yadda yadda), matched Dr. Polaris' control of the universes' magnetic pull (Pre-Crisis), and hurt Captain Atom who could make a universe in a nanosecond (definitely Pre-Crisis), plus he's equal to Kyle who stopped a Big Bang that was bigger than ours (apparently 10 billions times more energy than ours), so there we go.
- 14,018
- 14,192
First of all MK vs DC for the most part has a thing known as the kombat rage, which in both the game and prequel comic book its clearly shown and stated that it causes fluctuation between power levels, which is why certain characters lose or win against others in majority of them
So kombat rage nerfs and buffs some characters, likely for narrative purposes where its needed, same for Superman and Raiden teaming up on Dark Kahn, Raiden says how could try and focus their rage on Dark Kahn together, that right shows they got buffed to a level where they can beat him and even if not the case, its pure plot, which you should ignore simply, they wont have Dark Kahn win and have evil succeed, let alone MK on its own has moments such as these too
The moments you mentioned with Sonya its cuz of the kombat rage, Shazam is affected by that the most from the start of the story till he gets better, vs Green Lantern she has the rage, Shazam doesnt ko her btw, he punches her for a brief moment to give themselves time to escape, she immediately goes to fight Jax later still under the rage influence, when facing GL again, kombat rage takes over both if i remember, if not then for GL it sure does, either way that affects the battle, Joker defeated her only cuz of the rage, to which Deathstroke is amazed he did it and later when he rematches Batman its shows too, the comic book also says how the rage gives some powers they can dream off only and it shows Joker with yellow eyes on that segment
Also it doesnt matter which Joker was that as the wiki treats the two universes as comparable to the other, let alone i dont see why Sonya was downgraded long ago to just large building when she should be roughly City level at most and with scaling from injustice to MK given a possibly Small Country level one too, but thats another topic
Also about your Darkseid thing, either it doesnt work outside of DC as whole as Omega Effect isnt a thing in Mortal Kombat or after Dark Kahn was defeated and defused, both of them were powerless, with Darkseid if i remember revealed in his ending that Shang Tsung tried to steal his soul, given he had no power and he was in the Netherrealm held captive like the end of the story shows, it backfired at him and as such Darkseid got back in top shape with the sorcerer ending up in his older self form
- 14,018
- 14,192
Also not gonna argue Ben vs GL, but KurotheArtist debunked or adressed some of the stuff the guy brought up in the cast, like the sotobro thing
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,381
- 9,048
I'm like 90% sure that no one on VSB takes KurotheArtist seriously.
- 14,018
- 14,192
Anyway back to Sonya vs Cammy, ignoring the possibly rating that i think Sonya has in AP and speed, Cammy beats her in speed only by a difference of x6, meanwhile in AP i see her losing no question, plus Cammy lost to Vega, Vega in return is roughly equal to Guile by their fight they had and Sonya > Guile
Let alone Cammy lost to C Viper (which i believe they shown too in the analysis), a character with gadgets, something Sonya has too but clearly better ones, so really Cammy can just prolong the inevitable
And before you point it out, im aware vs wiki has Sonya listed as she is now otherwise then what i say, but i disagree with it, yet still gonna point it out, battle was accurate, her ratings arent accurate tho on the wiki
Let alone Cammy lost to C Viper (which i believe they shown too in the analysis), a character with gadgets, something Sonya has too but clearly better ones, so really Cammy can just prolong the inevitable
And before you point it out, im aware vs wiki has Sonya listed as she is now otherwise then what i say, but i disagree with it, yet still gonna point it out, battle was accurate, her ratings arent accurate tho on the wiki
Last edited:
- 6,708
- 1,194
That isn’t much of an argument, shouldn’t you actually look at Kuro’s arguments rather then just appeal to an unsourced opinion of an “authority” VSB ain’t any more of an Authority then DB or hell even Kuro. The arguments are what matters, face them.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,381
- 9,048
This is more so what I meant.
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #73
@Black
Both Cammy and Sonya are Supersonic+. Sonya sits at about Mach 2.8 via Kabal and Cammy's supposed to compare to dodging Guile's Sonic Boom, but since the link for that is broken, I can't find specific numbers. Given the range of speeds for Supersonic+ on VSBW, Cammy's somewhere in the range of Mach 2.5-5. So Cammy could be 0.9x as fast by going about 102 m/s slower, be 1.79x faster at Mach 5, or somewhere in-between. With any of these numbers, the two are comparable in speed in melee. If Cammy was 6x faster, she would speed blitz as 5x is the minimum for that.
As for C. Viper, she has a hi-tech battle suit that lets her control flames, electricity, and shockwaves. She does not use drones like Sonya. However, Cammy has dodged point-blank gunfire before and several fighters comparable to her in speed (Chun-Li, Base Ryu) have done so previously. Drones with machine guns shouldn't be an issue
Both Cammy and Sonya are Supersonic+. Sonya sits at about Mach 2.8 via Kabal and Cammy's supposed to compare to dodging Guile's Sonic Boom, but since the link for that is broken, I can't find specific numbers. Given the range of speeds for Supersonic+ on VSBW, Cammy's somewhere in the range of Mach 2.5-5. So Cammy could be 0.9x as fast by going about 102 m/s slower, be 1.79x faster at Mach 5, or somewhere in-between. With any of these numbers, the two are comparable in speed in melee. If Cammy was 6x faster, she would speed blitz as 5x is the minimum for that.
As for C. Viper, she has a hi-tech battle suit that lets her control flames, electricity, and shockwaves. She does not use drones like Sonya. However, Cammy has dodged point-blank gunfire before and several fighters comparable to her in speed (Chun-Li, Base Ryu) have done so previously. Drones with machine guns shouldn't be an issue
- 14,018
- 14,192
She didnt dodge any sonic boom from Guile, nowhere in the series i remember such a thing and the only supersonic feat i know of is Ryu dodging bullets in an alpha animated series, yet Cammy doesnt scale to Ryu at all and other feats of bullet dodging are from the comics which arent canon at all to the games
As i said i think Sonya should at least downscale from the likes of Scorpion and Subzero in speed, as well as in AP, she shown pretty consistently honestly she can hang out with these guys, especially in MKX
For street fighter there are 2 feats for speed i found long ago, one is around mach 600 and the other around mach 2000, first one is karin doing a striking technique in her story mode in SF5, as for the second one Eagle moves in tandem with a laser beam in SF alpha 3, going by the distance and time it took we get the value i said earlier, Cammy would scale to these
The rating the MK characters have with lighting timing im not sure if it had a calc or was assumed baseline, but if its the latter last i remember is that lightning is around mach 300, correct me if wrong on that, but either way thats the only thing Cammy would have over Sonya
Looking at Sonya profile, she has pretty much the same thing you said for Viper, then more others on top of that, so i still Sonya beating her
- 6,708
- 1,194
- 1,789
- 356
Sonya’s drones have more than just machine guns they have lasers and Grenade launchers too
- 22,748
- 49,428
Q&A for it,Shit others brought up etc
- 1,335
- 754
- Thread starter
- #79
@Black
Lower level characters in Street Fighter, like Chun-Li, Vega, and Guile, are all relatively compare to each other, and plenty of them have dodged Guile's attacks. Also, with Guile's attacks breaking the speed of sound and power scaling, Cammy dodging gunfire in the comics can be supporting evidence of her speed.
Regard Sonya comparing to Sub-Zero and Scorpion, it worked up until MKX and 11. After that, Scorpion gets a major power up after harming Raiden and brutalizing Havik. In the X story, Scorpion fights Sonya to get to Quan-Chi, beats her handily, and then she's restrained by normal Shirai-Ryu soldiers. Sub-Zero beat all four of the new generation of Earthrealm heroes, one of which being Cassie who would go on to beat Sonya in 11, back to back without breaking a sweat.
Finally, with the speeds you're suggesting, Cammy is even more guaranteed to win. Since Sonya doesn't compare to the lightning-dodgers of MK, Setting Cammy to Mach 600 or 2000 makes her either 214.4x faster or 714.8x faster, over 42x the minimum for a speed blitz at slowest.
Lower level characters in Street Fighter, like Chun-Li, Vega, and Guile, are all relatively compare to each other, and plenty of them have dodged Guile's attacks. Also, with Guile's attacks breaking the speed of sound and power scaling, Cammy dodging gunfire in the comics can be supporting evidence of her speed.
Regard Sonya comparing to Sub-Zero and Scorpion, it worked up until MKX and 11. After that, Scorpion gets a major power up after harming Raiden and brutalizing Havik. In the X story, Scorpion fights Sonya to get to Quan-Chi, beats her handily, and then she's restrained by normal Shirai-Ryu soldiers. Sub-Zero beat all four of the new generation of Earthrealm heroes, one of which being Cassie who would go on to beat Sonya in 11, back to back without breaking a sweat.
Finally, with the speeds you're suggesting, Cammy is even more guaranteed to win. Since Sonya doesn't compare to the lightning-dodgers of MK, Setting Cammy to Mach 600 or 2000 makes her either 214.4x faster or 714.8x faster, over 42x the minimum for a speed blitz at slowest.
- 14,018
- 14,192
You still using non canon stuff thats only based on the games, the only time you dodge these from Guile would be gameplay thats it, there is no instance of her doing it in lore or such
Also Cammy lost to Vega and Juri, which both were shown to be evenly matched, Guile also matched the two, Chun Li if going by one of its animated series had trouble with Vega, so really Cammy would scale backwards from those, she isnt equal to them really
Scorpion fights Raiden and Havik somewhere in MKX if i remember, so if you agree even in MK11 she can compare to them, you agree she would scale to these levels, Takeda still beat him in battle in the story, granted it wasnt a serious fight but Scorpion tested him to see how good he is, so should still hold some weight, Jackie i remember she staggered Subzero when they fought in a cutscene and yeah he beat those 4, but its not like he did it solo, lin kuei warriors were there too fighting them plus not like it was an utter stomp facing each one, Sonya vs Scorpion wasnt that much of a stomp, plus again, Scorpion had his shiray ryu there too
Also i dont see how she wouldnt scale backwards, Shang Tsung is more or less a jobber, yet scales backwards from those like Liu Kang and so on, why Sonya should be different, from older games Quan Chi beat Shang Tsung too in battle and reacted to Raiden lightning too, Sonya in MKX beaten Quan Chi
If she was really just large building she would be stomped hard by those you say are above her, which isnt the case, she holds her own to them, hell she did it with Shinnok in MKX, she wasnt utterly beaten
Also Cammy lost to Vega and Juri, which both were shown to be evenly matched, Guile also matched the two, Chun Li if going by one of its animated series had trouble with Vega, so really Cammy would scale backwards from those, she isnt equal to them really
Scorpion fights Raiden and Havik somewhere in MKX if i remember, so if you agree even in MK11 she can compare to them, you agree she would scale to these levels, Takeda still beat him in battle in the story, granted it wasnt a serious fight but Scorpion tested him to see how good he is, so should still hold some weight, Jackie i remember she staggered Subzero when they fought in a cutscene and yeah he beat those 4, but its not like he did it solo, lin kuei warriors were there too fighting them plus not like it was an utter stomp facing each one, Sonya vs Scorpion wasnt that much of a stomp, plus again, Scorpion had his shiray ryu there too
Also i dont see how she wouldnt scale backwards, Shang Tsung is more or less a jobber, yet scales backwards from those like Liu Kang and so on, why Sonya should be different, from older games Quan Chi beat Shang Tsung too in battle and reacted to Raiden lightning too, Sonya in MKX beaten Quan Chi
If she was really just large building she would be stomped hard by those you say are above her, which isnt the case, she holds her own to them, hell she did it with Shinnok in MKX, she wasnt utterly beaten
- Status
Similar threads
