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DDLC Tier 2 Downgrade

YungManzi

YungManzi

8,189
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As discussed somewhat in this thread, God tier doki doki characters should be downgraded from tier 2 because there is no evidence to suggest that the game files which are erased contain 3-A universes (Which is required in order for them to reach tier 2).

Normally it would be assumed that a "universe" or "World" has a 3-A structure, however DDLC is canonically different from the real world and cannot be assumed to contain 3-A structures within it.

If this goes through they would be downgraded somewhere in tier 4...or 3-C (Since we see many stars and light structures at the end of the game)

Tis' all.
 
I'm guessing you missed the part where monika talks about the rest of the world? It works like the real world quiet clearly.


I'll copypaste it here.
 
This quiet clearly is the copy of the real world, so there has to be some good reasons why doki shouldn't have a 3-A construct.

(Also, time is a thing that she erased. And erasing space-time makes the size of the physical universe a complete non-factor.)

  • "[player], do you believe in God?"
  • "I was never too sure, myself."
  • "Well, I'm sure I never really questioned it as a kid..."
  • "But as I grew up, the more I learned about the world, the more I would question it."
  • "I started to wonder why God was helping people pass exams, or get over a cold..."
  • "...When there are children who live their lives being sold as sex slaves?"
  • "Or the eight hundred million people who are too poor to even eat."
  • "I wonder how many of those people pray to God every day until they starve and die?"
  • "Or, how many millions of families pray for a loved one to recover from some incurable disease?"
  • "But the punchline is this."If just one person beats the odds and survives - among the thousands of others who die--"
  • "--Then, it's suddenly a miracle from God."
  • "I'd really love to meet this God who seemingly laughs at the misery of everyone not eligible for his miracles."
  • "But the irony is that I do have a creator, apparently."
  • "And you know what?"
  • "I bet he's still laughing at the miserable fates of Sayori and Yuri, even as we speak."
  • "What are we to him but props in a scripted play?"
  • "So, from that perspective..."
  • "I don't think it's too far-fetched for there to be a god - if Earth was nothing but his playset."


You either argue that the above is a fake due to her Japan talk, or she is Low 2-C.

Japan talk to save the trouble:

  • "By the way, there's something that's been bothering me..."
  • "You know how this takes place in Japan?"
  • "Well...I assume you knew that, right?"
  • "Or at least decided it probably does?"
  • "I don't think you're actually told at any point where this takes place..."
  • "Is this even really Japan?"
  • "I mean, aren't the classrooms and stuff kind of weird for a Japanese school?"
  • "Not to mention everything is in English..."
  • "It feels like everything is just there because it needs to be, and the actual setting is an afterthought."
  • "It's kind of giving me an identity crisis."
  • "All my memories are really hazy..."
  • "I feel like I'm at home, but have no idea where 'home' is in the first place."
  • "I don't know how to describe it any better..."
  • "Imagine looking out your window, but instead of your usual yard, you're in some completely unknown place."
  • "Would you still feel like you were home?"
  • "Would you want to go outside?"
  • "I mean...I guess if we never leave this room, it doesn't really matter anyway."
  • "As long as we're alone and safe together, this really is our home."
  • "And we can still watch the pretty sunsets night after night."
 
I mean, it is made as blatantly obvious as possible that it is a videogame, not just a 4th wall break like deadpool.

I honestly feel that going like White Face did and making a real world and an in-game prespective.
 
@Ricsi

I played through that, and I remember it. Howevever, I didn't think we would take those conversations towards the end of the game into account since she's talking about the real world in those a lot, and that blurs the line between whether or not she's talking about her reality or the real world.

And I don't think we've ever taken time erasing as 3-A by itself (Or else Diavolo would be 3-A with King Crimson)
 
She talks about how she grew up and stuff. She plain tells you she became awere of the fourth wall when you came around.


Yeah. Good thing she is erasing space-time in the ending, not just time.
 
The Causality said:
Hm...
I've read the entire arguments about the downgrade in the previous thread

Completly disagree about.
Click to expand...
I agree...

...but unless you justify that, you might as well not say it.
 
@DMB 1

Based on the fact that they're not the same reality, and DDLC is simply a fantasized simulation of an aspect of the real world.
 
YungManzi said:
@DMB 1
Based on the fact that they're not the same reality, and DDLC is simply a fantasized simulation of an aspect of the real world.
Click to expand...
Again, the only way you can argue this is saying that it is a videogame, which makes it 11-A.

Tough, again, erasing time-space.
 
Ricsi-viragosi wrot

Yeah. Good thing she is erasing space-time in the ending, not just time.

That's not enough, it also must contain a 3-A universe for her to be tier 2.
 
That's simply wrong.

The amount of matter within means absolutely nothing. The only reason that creating pocket dimensions isn't low 2-C is that they hardly ever have their own time, and because it is anm outlier, both of which are not the case here.

Like, why would how much finite matter is within it matter for a tier above infinite?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Again, the only way you can argue this is saying that it is a videogame, which makes it 11-A.
Click to expand...
It is a video game, the reason why they aren't 11-A iirc is, just because it is a video game in the "real world" doesn't mean it isn't reality for the characters involved.

However, that also makes it a comepletely different reality from the real world canonically.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
I agree...

...but unless you justify that, you might as well not say it.
Click to expand...
Based on the fact that the reasoning is really bad, assuming that the Universe aren't the same size as our universe because you can do stuff like erase files of characters and manipulate the entire game and logic like that is the same as said that "you need to prove that cats exist in this world too" and other offscreen and obvious things.

With this reasoning, we can assume almost everything like "prove that the moon exist" or "prove that planets exist" You can do anything with this logic, the first and logic assumption is assuming that the game is the same as the world but in a game where characters with power like monika has.
 
YungManzi said:
It is a video game, the reason why they aren't 11-A iirc is, just because it is a video game in the "real world" doesn't mean it isn't reality for the characters involved.

However, that also makes it a comepletely different reality from the real world canonically.
Click to expand...
Not how it works bud. You can't assume it is so fundamentally different despite everything we know about the world within it being the same as ours based on that.

You can only do that based on her Japan speech, which implies that her memories are fakes, and that the world doesn't truly exist that way. But that leads to 11-A.
 
The Causality said:
assuming that the Universe aren't the same size as our universe because you can do stuff like erase files of characters and manipulate the entire game and logic like that is the same as said that "you need to prove that cats exist in this world too" and other offscreen and obvious things.
Click to expand...


That's not my argument. My argument stems from the DDLC verse seperating itself from the real world, making the two dissimilar.

If a piece of fiction intentionally seperates itself from the real world, why should it be assumed to have all of the same properties?
 
Because everything within it is exactly the same as the real world is, down to the amount of starving people.
 
The ones that aren't contradicted, yes.

Besides, your reasonings as of why the DDLC world would be 4-A are wrong because those that are shown outside of Monika's room aren't even stars.

It's just a destroyed reality with not time or space.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
What to the last part? She did destroy time and space, quiet obviously. Those are part of reality.
Click to expand...
Yes. She destroyed both space and time of the reality, but what she left was just a void with none of those things.

I was siply saying to the OP that those little sparkles outside of the room she puts you in aren't star, costellation, or even a galaxy.
 
The OP's argument was fallacious in the first place since without space or time (which she did indeed destroy), those couldn't possibly be stars, because stars annot exist wthou space or time.

Those shiny things are just a visual effect, and how the author likes to rapresent a timeless void.

Regardless, there is no proof that the DDLC universe would be any different in structure from our universe, and if that was the case, it would have been established.
 
I have always disagreed with tier 2 DDLC.

However much Monika talks about her past and the rest of her universe and places she's been or seen or what-not, it is made very blatant that the "world" of DDLC that Monika lives in is a video game. She does not have a past. There is no rest of the world for her to have traveled to. There is nowhere in that videogame but scenery on a backdrop and fake memories of going places and living a past programmed into the minds of character programs.
 
That again means that she is 11-A.

Not saying that I disagree with that, it is made quiet blatant that she is a videogame character, and not just a fourthwall breaker.
 
Monika is not erasing space-time. She is not erasing matter. She is deleting or re-writing code from a video game.
 
Me or Zero?

If it's me, it just comes back to the fact that it is very blatantly made clear that DDLC is a video game, with everything just being code in that game. There's no 52 space-time continuums sitting inside the computer monitor.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Because everything within it is exactly the same as the real world is, down to the amount of starving people.
Click to expand...
That accounts for earth, but that doesn't account for an entire universe which as I mentioned is just a fantasized simulation of an aspect of reality. The entire verse was made with the soul purpose being for it to be a dating sim. iirc the verse doesn't even exist when you close the browser (or at least it enters a shut down state), So everything which we don't see in the story has no merit because it's all memory data used to build character personalities (Not to mention that none of that proves the verse is 3-A+).

Of course we can assume that earth, the moon, and the sun exists (And likely the rest of the solar system); but the story which doki doki is trying to tell wouldn't go beyond that because there's no reason for it to go beyond that (It's a dating sim, there's no narrative purpose for a dating simulation to have a 3-A universe within it...at least not in doki doki's case).

All I'm asking for is more evidence for 3-A universes in those save files.
 
YungManzi said:
Of course we can assume that earth, the moon, and the sun exists (And likely the rest of the solar system); but the story which doki doki is trying to tell wouldn't go beyond that because there's no reason for it to go beyond that (It's a dating sim, there's no narrative purpose for a dating simulation to have a 3-A universe within it...at least not in doki doki's case).
Click to expand...
We can't actually.

Because DDLC is a video game, even within the plot of the DDLC game that we play in real life. There is no "real" sun or stars or moon or earth within a videogame. There's only images of locations on a backdrop and character programs with programmed memories and experiences.
 
Occam's Razor dude. There is absolutely zero reason to assume your speculation is right, and it is a far bigger one,

And again, erasing a space-time is Low 2-C regardless of the amount of matter within it.


You either say that the whole reality is bull because it's a videogame, as implied... all over the place, but Japan is a good example. So, either 11-A or low 2-C.
 
11-A then.

Because we are blatantly told that DDLC is just a videogame and Monika and all the other characters are just programs. Even within the meta-setting of DDLC, DDLC is still just a pile of code with one string of code in particular who happened to become a bit more sentient than intended.
 
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