DDLC: fixing and updating everything

[StrymULTRA]

Hello everyone, I am here to propose the long-awaited DDLC revisions.

After an extensive re-research on this verse, I did realize that some stuff does need changes, as it was kinda of overlooked.

To begin, I have revamped both the girls' profiles, as in the following:

Monika: Old profile | New profile

Sayori: Old profile | New profile

The changes that are between them will be all explained in the thread.

10-A Monika​

I was just as shocked when I realized this. Monika is stated to be athletic, and the official website does support this, making the statement not just a "standard a lazy teenager of her age" that her profile says.

We literally have this in the tiering system for 10-A:

Characters or objects capable of exerting force comparable to that of more athletic humans, such as trained fighters or generally physically fit individuals.

Monika fits the latter to a T, especially when she's vegetarian. Thus her physical stats should become from 10-B to 10-A.

Agree: 8 (Rikimarox2, Mr. Bambu [as a possibly], FinePoint [as a possibly], SweetDao [as a possibly], Johner2133451, DarkDragonMedeus, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless [as a possibly], FoxySonicMaster108)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

Nature 2 NEP, Type 1 Concept and Void Manipulation​

As it stands, the current justification for even having Conceptual Manipulation is a bit weak as there's the whole "it's just Type 2 Information" angle. So I have decided to revamp a bit, while discovering the following:

1. As we already know from her current profile, deleting a character file completely ***** up the character in question, something that is shown by Monika being able to alter a character by altering their file too, showing it works akin to a concept. Further evidence of this is that the script itself is a file, and altering it can change the fate, actions and dialogues of the other characters, something that Monika mentionsexplicitly, other than the fact that altering the script is implied to alter time as well.
2. The files are independent from the reality they govern, given that Monika has destroyed, recreated and reshaped the universe within said files over and over, with the game world being truly gone only when Monika deletes all the files, and at that point the only way to restore it is to to reset the Virtual Machine containing the game.
3. Going with the point above, the files are implied to also make nonexistence, as after remaking the game, Monika mentions that all that's left is a void with neither script nor time, as shown by also the fact that everything eventually disappears once that Monika is deleted, but she's still able to restore everything, with the game always working even there without giving the error message about the files missing.

Going with these points and the stuff that's already on the profiles, the files in DDLC shape everything, from information itself to metaphysical concepts like time, plot and fate, including also voids that lack these concepts entirely, and are completely independent from the reality that is based upon said files as well.

Because of this, Files would become from Type 2 a Type 1 Concept, the Nonexistent Physiology for Monika and Sayori becomes Nature Type 2, and the File Manipulation in DDLC will include also Void Manipulation as Monika could convert the game world in nothingness while still using the files (implying voids are included in the files), and would obviously increase the degree of EE for the characters able to use the file deletion. Given that the Demon Realm of DBH and True Form Arceus have NEP 2 from a similar argument, I don't think that DDLC should be excluded from this.

Agree: 4 (FinePoint - Concept Type 1 and NEP 2, Johner2133451 - Void and NEP 2, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless and DarkDragonMedeus - Everything)
Neutral: 2 (Mr. Bambu - Void Manip, FoxySonicMaster108 - Everything)
Disagree: 5 (Rikimarox2 - Everything, FinePoint - Void Manip, Mr. Bambu and SweetDao - Concept Type 1 and NEP 2, Johner2133451 - Concept 1)

Speed​

Probably the most controversial part of the revision is the speed. I personally ain't even sure of the arguments myself, as the line is REALLY blurry.

Monika's physical movements are unbothered by the state of the game, as she's perfectly fine when the game crashes or is stopped, and it's probably implied that Monika isn't affected from the fast-foward option.

I think it's clear that her movements are unbound from time, so here are 3 options:

1. All of these are resistances and nothing else, keep her at Average Human speed lol.
2. Unknown speed to show her becoming unbound from the game's processing speed unlike the other characters, only that the degree of this is purely unquantifiable.
3. Infinite if we take her being completely unbound from the flow of time in her movements (though this is likely wank as timeless voids don't give speed here, but something tell me that it's different here. Or not, I don't care if this gets rejected)

Agree: 0
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 8 (Rikimarox2, FinePoint, Mr. Bambu ,SweetDao and DarkDragonMedeus, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, FoxySonicMaster108 - stays for Option 1)

Cosmology and Range​

As mentioned in both her reworked AP and the Note in the new page, the DDLC universe is a place that is as real as the one of her creators and the player, especially if we take in account the fact that both worlds work like simulations and Monika can use her powers in both worlds.

Universe level+ with her powers (Through her powers, she has complete control on a Kernel level over the game world of "Doki Doki Literature Club!", which is a universe meant to mimic the one of her creators with also its own flow of time. Capable to modify, destroy and re-create her reality over and over, and was ultimately able to completely erase the game world through deleting all of its files)

Note 1: Contrary to popular belief, the fictionality of Monika's universe does not make it lower than a "baseline" reality, as while it's a videogame for the Metaverse Enterprise Solutions and the Player, it is stated to be as real as the universe where they reside in, making both worlds on the same level of existence. Furthermore, the MES implied that their world is also a simulation and they've been researching ways to control it similar to how Monika does, to then claim that a control on her level is unrealistic to have rather than not having and kind of control at all. Because of these factors, as both of these universes share the same nature and have no existencial difference, the digital nature of Monika's universe should not be brought up in an attempt to downplay her or downgrade her powers/statistics.

And we have the following universes:

• Real World: The universe where the MES and the Player are in (with the latter being implied to be an employee for the latter as the physical edition of DDLC Plus has a MES business card which leads to a real website, just like the download page of the game and the real twitter account are both mentioned in-verse, other than the fact that the goal of the Player is to reset the game over and over until getting all the possible information, as shown by the game giving achievements anytime you interact with the main story in a different way per reset.
• VM1: The universe of DDLC we all know and love.
• Copy of VM1: The Side Stories of DDLC Plus are implied to take place in a copy of VM1 where Monika didn't get the "elevated permissions" that made her self-aware in the normal DDLC, as even confirmed by WoG saying that they take place in another timeline.
• VM2: The future project of the MES, which is stated to be a larger than VM1.

With this said, I think that the MES' attack potency should be upgraded from their 2 universes to 3 to include the copy of VM1 on top of the VM1 and VM2 that their servers already have.

Monika and Sayori's range should also become 2-C (2 or 3 universes) because of her being implied to be able to reach also the Player's world due to her managing to edit the download page of the game or to get a real Twitter account, although the latter was only possible due to the help of a MES employee, with her being also supposedly able to reach also the files of VM2, however it's unclear if it's solely due to issues regarding the MES servers.

Agree: 8 (Rikimarox2, DarkDragonMedeus, FinePoint, Mr. Bambu and SweetDao [AP for MES should be Evironmental Destruction], Johner2133451, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, FoxySonicMaster108)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

Monika haxes addition​

This will aim to add haxes to Monika. Sometimes Sayori will also get them retroactively due to her being the President in Act 4, so if Sayori also gets this power, it'll be indicated to:

Spoiler: Quite a bit of them

Supernatural Willpower (Thanks to the love she feels for the Player, Monika managed to endure the knowledge of her world not being real, something that she describes as a torture, with said knowledge greatly affecting normal individuals as also shown by Sayori radically changing her behavior or quickly lose her mind after gaining such awareness. Can also endure the game getting closed, which causes her mind to be assaulted from flashing lights and constant screaming with her being unable to form her own thoughts)

[Sayori too] Clairvoyance and Cosmic Awareness (Implied to be aware of everything that can happen in the game as she can see the script to know the events in her reality/game's history across past, present and future, as shown by her being aware of both Sayori's confession and suicide despite not being there when these events happened. This excludes the Player's actions due to them not belonging to that universe, although Monika knows when things of her game interact with them like when the Player uses save files, as shown by also Sayori being aware of all the save and loads performed in the game after getting Monika's powers)

Sound Manipulation and Color Manipulation (Can play audio files, accelerate the music, and filter the music while making the screen red)

[Sayori too] Immortality Types 4 and 8 (Can restore/resurrect herself as long as a backup of her character file exist, as shown by her restoring the deleted girls and her attempting to do the same to herself until realizing that her character file was deleted)

• This will also grant Mid-Godly Resurrection as the files from which Monika can recover are fundamental buildings blocks of reality as I mentioned above.

[Sayori too] Negation of Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology and High-Godly Regeneration (As already said in the profile, Monika has negated all of Sayori's when she got President powers in Act 4. Furthermore, she should have also negated her ability to regenerate her deleted character file. Should also be the same as Sayori who can permanently kill herself if she gets Monika's powers at the very beginning of the game)

[Sayori too] Full on Type 4 Acausality (It shouldn't be restricted to just her NEP self, as she's managed to break free from the script through her knowledge of the 4th wall. Because of this, reshaping the game to get rid of the script or changing it does not have any effect on her unlike other characters beneath it, with the script determining the world's time, history, causality, fate and history, with further proof being her sending a letter to the Player after the deletion of the whole game)

Speaking of NEP, I moved all the abilities granted from it in a Tabber called Optional, as while Monika starts as an existent being normally, she can stay deleted by her own choice, and the only combat situation against a similar being was against Sayori in Act 4, where she was Nonexistent. Meaning that in a VS Thread, while Monika would by default start as an existing file, the Thread Starter can choose to make her start in NEP form, same with Sayori in her Act 4 key.

(Also why doesn't Sayori have Self-Sustenance? Monika got it by existing, Sayori should too)

Agree: 6 (Rikimarox2, FinePoint, Johner2133451, DarkDragonMedeus, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, FoxySonicMaster108)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

reset.sh is busted lol​

Basically the reason why Monika's memories get reset anytime the Player resets the VM is because it's heavily implied it's a different Monika entirely.

Because of this, the Player and the MES should have Negation of High Godly Regen and Erasure of Nature 2 NEP, given they straight up destroy Monika and re-create her each time the reset.sh is used.

Agree: 5 (Rikimarox2, Johner2133451, DarkDragonMedeus, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, FoxySonicMaster108)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

Weakness and Intelligence removal​

Monika got this in her weakness:

She has limited control over the game at first, only being capable of slightly affecting beings, though by the end of the game she can manipulate and even destroy the script at will.

This is blatantly untrue as the MES employeed admitted that her control over her world is less clumsy than they thought. This also probably comes from the statements of Monika herself saying that she's not that good at editing the game, when that's just the fact that she heavily undermines herself. Monika is a well known perfectionist, as she made a lot of stains on the paper when attempting to make her first poem, other than the fact that she doesn't think she's even worth to exist, meaning that Monika herself is not exactly a good reference regarding her skills.

Also Sayori's Above Average for her Act 4 Key should be removed, being aware of prior events does not increase one's intelligence, and Sayori didn't showcase any notable intelligence feats in the game at all.

Agree: 8 (Rikimarox2 FinePoint, Mr. Bambu, SweetDao, Johner2133451, DarkDragonMedeus, Oblivion_Of_The_Endless, FoxySonicMaster108)
Neutral: 0
Disagree: 0

TLDR​

• Monika becomes 10-A
• Monika and Sayori's NEP becomes from Nature 1 to 2, their Concept hax becomes Type 1 and File Manipulation gets Void stuff
• Monika and Sayori's range becomes 2-C (2 or 3 universes) and the MES gets >=3 universes in their AP
• Lots of new hax, including the fact that NEP becomes something akin to Optional Equipment
• MES and Player get the fact that they can erase and negate permanently the regeneration of NEP 2 beings
• Monika's weakness gets removed
• Sayori loses her Above Average intelligence

 

[Chariot190]

especially when she's vegetarian.

10-C....

 

[StrymULTRA]

10-C....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll look at this after work.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Monika fits the latter to a T, especially when she's vegetarian. Thus her physical stats should become from 10-B to 10-A.

No meat, no feats

 

[Rikimarox2]

Right so, I've been out of the DDLC circle for quite long (I do remember proposing concept manip to the verse tho way back), but I got asked to give input here. Regardless, my knowledge is really iffy, so I'm going purely based off what I'm seeing

I was just as shocked when I realized this. Monika is stated to be athletic, and the official website does support this, making the statement not just a "standard a lazy teenager of her age" that her profile says.

We literally have this in the tiering system for 10-A:



Monika fits the latter to a T, especially when she's vegetarian. Thus her physical stats should become from 10-B to 10-A.

Sounds simple enough, the site itself states she's athletic, so it makes sense.

Nature 2 NEP, Type 1 Concept and Void Manipulation

As it stands, the current justification for even having Conceptual Manipulation is a bit weak as there's the whole "it's just Type 2 Information" angle. So I have decided to revamp a bit, while discovering the following:

1. As we already know from her current profile, deleting a character file completely ***** up the character in question, something that is shown by Monika being able to alter a character by altering their file too, showing it works akin to a concept.

Not gonna lie, I'm not sure how that scan even implies that besides "I changed a few things, so she killed herself, lmao", but I suppose there are other evidence than this?

1. Further evidence of this is that the script itself is a file, and altering it can change the fate,

I'm sorry but isn't that... just a way of speech, rather an actual metaphysical fate? "I bet he's still laughing at the miserable fates of Sayori and Yuri", I do not see, whatsoever, an actual evidence of fate in the verse, as it is talking about it in a way of speech rather than literal.

1. actions and dialogues of the other characters, something that Monika mentions explicitly,

Seems good, although the first scan, for someone who has left the series for long/for someone not knowledgeable, is a bit weird to read, but regardless, I agree.

1. other than the fact that altering the script is implied to alter time as well.

I assume the script is what caused time itself to disappear? If so, agreed.

1. The files are independent from the reality they govern,

Sorry, but I do not understand what is exactly going on here? Could you elaborate or send more scans, because as it stands, I don't see how that implies independence (especially if not all universes disappeared). Reading this was a bit awful, without having any knowledge on the terminologies.

1. given that Monika has destroyed, recreated and reshaped the universe within said files over and over,

Same as above, ngl. Are the files only for said universe, or do they contain multiple universes or whatnot? I also do not understand why it is within said files, instead of just... destroying the files themselves, as the follow-up implies;

1. with the game world being truly gone only when Monika deletes all the files, and at that point the only way to restore it is to to reset the Virtual Machine containing the game.

Which can be done with Type 2 concept as well, as destruction of Type 2 concept destroys the world as well.

I'd appreciate more elaboration. I can see type 1, but man is it hard to understand the terminologies.

1. Going with the point above, the files are implied to also make nonexistence, as after remaking the game, Monika mentions that all that's left is a void with neither script nor time,

"The script is broken" I wouldn't say that implies that the script itself is erased, but rather, like she said... broken. It still exists, but just not functioning like normal.

Also i feel like it's not just a "void" in literal sense but more like almost everything is no longer there, but just the two of them in the class room, with time being broken. I mean, the classroom still exists, but that might just me nitpicking, so eh.

1. as shown by also the fact that everything eventually disappears once that Monika is deleted, but she's still able to restore everything, with the game always working even there without giving the error message about the files missing.

Did she actually restore everything, or was it something else? I mean, with the whole sayori stuff, and the fact that she was thanking the player, so like-Especially since at the ending, everything seems to have disappeared. Would like more elaboration on this. Also idk why it being restored implies anything really, but I'll wait for more elaboration and staff.

Going with these points and the stuff that's already on the profiles, the files in DDLC shape everything, from information itself to metaphysical concepts like time,

I agree, somewhat.

plot

Makes sense (?), I think? What was the actual evidence for plot in the verse? The fact that characters can manipulate the script, which contains everything, therefore plot, or was there an actual narrative structure, with characters describing it as the story? I recall something along that line, but I'd appreciate the scans, because it has been forever.

and fate,

As mentioned above, that seems like a way of speech rather an actual metaphysical fate.

including also voids that lack these concepts entirely, and are completely independent from the reality that is based upon said files as well.

Go back to above. As I said, I would like more elaboration, as it seems... really vague, especially the independent one. I think it's possible, but I just need more elaboration on this, ie more scans.

Because of this, Files would become from Type 2 a Type 1 Concept, the Nonexistent Physiology for Monika and Sayori becomes Nature Type 2, and the File Manipulation in DDLC will include also Void Manipulation as Monika could convert the game world in nothingness while still using the files (implying voids are included in the files),

Being more nonexistent than a void isn't really NEP2, but just another layer iirc. You gotta show that it is fundamentally more nonexistent than a normal void, ie completely different nature, iirc.

And as I mentioned, idk about the Void stuff considering things like stars and stuff in the background seem to still exist, but I vaguely recall a statement that they were fake, so I'd wait for more replies.

and would obviously increase the degree of EE for the characters able to use the file deletion. Given that the Demon Realm of DBH and True Form Arceus have NEP 2 from a similar argument, I don't think that DDLC should be excluded from this.

This is whataboutism, for all we know, they could all be wrong as well.
Also that DBH one seems really... eh, so I wouldn't really rely on it.

Speed

Probably the most controversial part of the revision is the speed. I personally ain't even sure of the arguments myself, as the line is REALLY blurry.

Monika's physical movements are unbothered by the state of the game, as she's perfectly fine when the game crashes or is stopped, and it's probably implied that Monika isn't affected from the fast-foward option.

I think it's clear that her movements are unbound from time, so here are 3 options:

1. All of these are resistances and nothing else, keep her at Average Human speed lol.
2. Unknown speed to show her becoming unbound from the game's processing speed unlike the other characters, only that the degree of this is purely unquantifiable.
3. Infinite if we take her being completely unbound from the flow of time in her movements (though this is likely wank as timeless voids don't give speed here, but something tell me that it's different here. Or not, I don't care if this gets rejected)

I think 1 is the best. 2 is eh, since we already know she's atheltic, and I don't think being in the void depends on the speed. 3 is definitely a no, timeless void shenanigans are shitty, as you mentioned.

Cosmology and Range

As mentioned in both her reworked AP and the Note in the new page, the DDLC universe is a place that is as real as the one of her creators and the player, especially if we take in account the fact that both worlds work like simulations and Monika can use her powers in both worlds.





And we have the following universes:

• Real World: The universe where the MES and the Player are in (with the latter being implied to be an employee for the latter as the physical edition of DDLC Plus has a MES business card which leads to a real website, just like the download page of the game and the real twitter account are both mentioned in-verse, other than the fact that the goal of the Player is to reset the game over and over until getting all the possible information, as shown by the game giving achievements anytime you interact with the main story in a different way per reset.
• VM1: The universe of DDLC we all know and love.
• Copy of VM1: The Side Stories of DDLC Plus are implied to take place in a copy of VM1 where Monika didn't get the "elevated permissions" that made her self-aware in the normal DDLC, as even confirmed by WoG saying that they take place in another timeline.
• VM2: The future project of the MES, which is stated to be a larger than VM1.

With this said, I think that the MES' attack potency should be upgraded from their 2 universes to 3 to include the copy of VM1 on top of the VM1 and VM2 that their servers already have.

Monika and Sayori's range should also become 2-C (2 or 3 universes) because of her being implied to be able to reach also the Player's world due to her managing to edit the download page of the game or to get a real Twitter account, although the latter was only possible due to the help of a MES employee, with her being also supposedly able to reach also the files of VM2, however it's unclear if it's solely due to issues regarding the MES servers.

Seems fine, I agree.

Monika haxes addition

This will aim to add haxes to Monika. Sometimes Sayori will also get them retroactively due to her being the President in Act 4, so if Sayori also gets this power, it'll be indicated to:


Supernatural Willpower (Thanks to the love she feels for the Player, Monika managed to endure the knowledge of her world not being real, something that she describes as a torture, with said knowledge greatly affecting normal individuals as also shown by Sayori radically changing her behavior or quickly lose her mind after gaining such awareness. Can also endure the game getting closed, which causes her mind to be assaulted from flashing lights and constant screaming with her being unable to form her own thoughts)

Seems good.

[Sayori too] Clairvoyance and Cosmic Awareness (Implied to be aware of everything that can happen in the game as she can see the script to know the events in her reality/game's history across past, present and future, as shown by her being aware of both Sayori's confession and suicide despite not being there when these events happened. This excludes the Player's actions due to them not belonging to that universe, although Monika knows when things of her game interact with them like when the Player uses save files, as shown by also Sayori being aware of all the save and loads performed in the game after getting Monika's powers)

Sound Manipulation and Color Manipulation (Can play audio files, accelerate the music, and filter the music while making the screen red)

Seems good as well.

[Sayori too] Immortality Types 4 and 8 (Can restore/resurrect herself as long as a backup of her character file exist, as shown by her restoring the deleted girls and her attempting to do the same to herself until realizing that her character file was deleted)

• This will also grant Mid-Godly Resurrection as the files from which Monika can recover are fundamental buildings blocks of reality as I mentioned above.

...Was she ever erased from soul and mind or whatever? I certainly don't recall anything even implying a soul in the game, but regeneration requires the erasure of those aspects as well.
Immortality seems fine, imo.

[Sayori too] Negation of Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology and High-Godly Regeneration (As already said in the profile, Monika has negated all of Sayori's when she got President powers in Act 4. Furthermore, she should have also negated her ability to regenerate her deleted character file. Should also be the same as Sayori who can permanently kill herself if she gets Monika's powers at the very beginning of the game)

Already talked about how I feel about NEP2. High-Godly, maybe? I mean, she's getting erased from everything, but there is no mention of soul or whatever, but considering how potent it is, I'm not sure how it'll work with the regeneration. I recall she already had High-Godly, no?

[Sayori too] Full on Type 4 Acausality (It shouldn't be restricted to just her NEP self, as she's managed to break free from the script through her knowledge of the 4th wall. Because of this, reshaping the game to get rid of the script or changing it does not have any effect on her unlike other characters beneath it, with the script determining the world's time, history, causality, fate and history, with further proof being her sending a letter to the Player after the deletion of the whole game)

Already talked about Fate, and not sure why Causality is there when it is not mentioned anywhere at all, but besides from those, I agree.

Speaking of NEP, I moved all the abilities granted from it in a Tabber called Optional, as while Monika starts as an existent being normally, she can stay deleted by her own choice, and the only combat situation against a similar being was against Sayori in Act 4, where she was Nonexistent. Meaning that in a VS Thread, while Monika would by default start as an existing file, the Thread Starter can choose to make her start in NEP form, same with Sayori in her Act 4 key.

(Also why doesn't Sayori have Self-Sustenance? Monika got it by existing, Sayori should too)
[/SPOILER]

NEP stuff makes sense, idk about Sayori stuff so no comment on that.

reset.sh is busted lol

Basically the reason why Monika's memories get reset anytime the Player resets the VM is because it's heavily implied it's a different Monika entirely.

Because of this, the Player and the MES should have Negation of High Godly Regen and Erasure of Nature 2 NEP, given they straight up destroy Monika and re-create her each time the reset.sh is used.

Already mentioned about NEP2, again... but aside from that, I think it makes sense. High-Godly I'm still unsure but I'll accept it for now.

Weakness and Intelligence removal

Monika got this in her weakness:

She has limited control over the game at first, only being capable of slightly affecting beings, though by the end of the game she can manipulate and even destroy the script at will.

This is blatantly untrue as the MES employeed admitted that her control over her world is less clumsy than they thought. This also probably comes from the statements of Monika herself saying that she's not that good at editing the game, when that's just the fact that she heavily undermines herself. Monika is a well known perfectionist, as she made a lot of stains on the paper when attempting to make her first poem, other than the fact that she doesn't think she's even worth to exist, meaning that Monika herself is not exactly a good reference regarding her skills.

Also Sayori's Above Average for her Act 4 Key should be removed, being aware of prior events does not increase one's intelligence, and Sayori didn't showcase any notable intelligence feats in the game at all.

Seems... fine? Idk, seems like a bit of headcanon here, and the only statement that really supports this is the first scan, but even then, I'm not sure if that's enough to consider her being very proficient at the start of the game, but I'll agree for now till more arguments come (or if I change my mind somehow after thinking about it, idk).

TLDR

• Monika becomes 10-A

Good.

• Monika and Sayori's NEP becomes from Nature 1 to 2, their Concept hax becomes Type 1 and File Manipulation gets Void stuff

Mentioned above how I feel about it, NEP2 stuff seems iffy, concept type 1, just need more elaboration cause some stuff seems iffy. Neutral on Void stuff, as I mentioned.

• Monika and Sayori's range becomes 2-C (2 or 3 universes) and the MES gets >=3 universes in their AP
• Lots of new hax, including the fact that NEP becomes something akin to Optional Equipment

Agreed.

• MES and Player get the fact that they can erase and negate permanently the regeneration of NEP 2 beings

NEP2, iffy. High-Godly stuff, agree for now.

• Monika's weakness gets removed

Mentioned above, kinda agree for now.

• Sayori loses her Above Average intelligence

Seems fine, having past knowledge doesn't really imply anything for intelligence.

Keep in mind, I barely remember jack from DDLC, so it could be I got some stuff erroneously wrong, but I'll appreciate it if anyone could fix it or smth.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not gonna lie, I'm not sure how that scan even implies that besides "I changed a few things, so she killed herself, lmao", but I suppose there are other evidence than this?

Yeah, I remember listing them in this old CRT of mine here

DDLC: Conceptual CRT

Well, is still worth a shot. Given that now thanks to this CRT altering datas which make up a whole world is Type 2 concept manip, I want to argue that DDLC's Data Manipulation qualifies as Concept Manip Type 2 as well. First, let's see again what Type 2 means here: Dependent Concepts: Such...

vsbattles.com

I'm sorry but isn't that... just a way of speech, rather an actual metaphysical fate? "I bet he's still laughing at the miserable fates of Sayori and Yuri", I do not see, whatsoever, an actual evidence of fate in the verse, as it is talking about it in a way of speech rather than literal.

You're lowkey seeing just a scan rather than the whole thing.

The MC stared at Yuri's corpse for a whole weekend and Monika blames it to the script being badly edited. That and the fact that what I am reffering to is Monika describing people's fates as "props in a scripted play".

I assume the script is what caused time itself to disappear? If so, agreed.

Kinda of, Monika later says that the fast-foward thing does not work anymore right because time does not exist anymore.

Sorry, but I do not understand what is exactly going on here? Could you elaborate or send more scans, because as it stands, I don't see how that implies independence (especially if not all universes disappeared). Reading this was a bit awful, without having any knowledge on the terminologies.

TBF as I said above, the context is already given in both the current profile and the CRT I linked above. My argument is just an abridged version for those who already know the verse.

Same as above, ngl. Are the files only for said universe, or do they contain multiple universes or whatnot? I also do not understand why it is within said files, instead of just... destroying the files themselves, as the follow-up implies;

They are given that a single Virtual Machine contains a universe (as said in the profile). The point of the argument is that the files are independent from reality because Monika could create and destroy the universe inside over and over without damaging the files, and the complete destruction of the game happened ONLY after that Monika deleted the files themselves rather than just the universe within.

After all the MES Mail did mention that Monika created then destroyed the universe, something mentioned in the Note 2 of her profile:

Note 2: Do not attempt to upgrade Monika to 2-C levels based on her being stated to have destroyed 3 or 4 universes. Given that the DDLC world was referred to many times to be a single universe, the context about this statement hints more about Monika having destroyed the previous universe then having created another one in its place, as stated in the "DDLC.txt" file that the universe gets destroyed over and over, or also shown when she has restored the game back to its original state after that she has reshaped it to her likes in the actual game.

Being more nonexistent than a void isn't really NEP2, but just another layer iirc. You gotta show that it is fundamentally more nonexistent than a normal void, ie completely different nature, iirc.

And as I mentioned, idk about the Void stuff considering things like stars and stuff in the background seem to still exist, but I vaguely recall a statement that they were fake, so I'd wait for more replies.

The argument is that the verse treats nothingness as a concept that the files make up, so deleting a character file = deleting from both.

Not gonna lie, I'm not sure how that scan even implies that besides "I changed a few things, so she killed herself, lmao", but I suppose there are other evidence than this?

In both her current profile regarding CM and the CRT I linked, yes.

...Was she ever erased from soul and mind or whatever? I certainly don't recall anything even implying a soul in the game, but regeneration requires the erasure of those aspects as well.
Immortality seems fine, imo.

If you see the scans for Mind Manipulation and her Resistances, you'd see that files in DDLC make up mind, personality and memories too.

Besides there's also this for a character getting Mid-Godly for resurrecting from a fundamentally abstract plane.

NEP2, iffy. High-Godly stuff, agree for now.

High Godly comes from stuff in her profile.

TBF, you've mentioned that you just speak from the CRT, so for context, I'd really suggest you to get both the 2022 CRT and the profiles, as a lot of my arguments base on already accepted things.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yeah, I remember listing them in this old CRT of mine here

DDLC: Conceptual CRT

Well, is still worth a shot. Given that now thanks to this CRT altering datas which make up a whole world is Type 2 concept manip, I want to argue that DDLC's Data Manipulation qualifies as Concept Manip Type 2 as well. First, let's see again what Type 2 means here: Dependent Concepts: Such...

vsbattles.com

Gotcha. Tho I'd assume if I wanna argue against CM in general (not just the type), I'd need to make a CRT, yes? If so, then forget about it for now (I think it's more Info type 2, Bambu iirc had made a similar argument before).

You're lowkey seeing just a scan rather than the whole thing.

The MC stared at Yuri's corpse for a whole weekend and Monika blames it to the script being badly edited. That and the fact that what I am reffering to is Monika describing people's fates as "props in a scripted play".

Which... is plot manipulation? I don't get it, It's just Plot Manipulation if it's about the script, because the way you mentioned it seems to imply plot "editing the script (plot)", and really, I don't think just "badly edited" and "props in a scripted play" should automatically get fate manipulation, if it's already addressed as Plot Manipulation.

Just confused here, what are you trying to imply here? Is it Fate Manipulation, or is it Plot Manipulation (Script stuff), or are you trying to imply both for... some reason, since both of them functionally can do this? It seems like plot rather than actual, legit metaphysical fate in the verse, ngl. But I'll wait for more arguments.

Kinda of, Monika later says that the fast-foward thing does not work anymore right because time does not exist anymore.

Then idk, it seems to imply it being due to the script, but then again, I'm not sure if the evidence is enough for that. Neutral for now for this one.

TBF as I said above, the context is already given in both the current profile and the CRT I linked above. My argument is just an abridged version for those who already know the verse.

They are given that a single Virtual Machine contains a universe (as said in the profile). The point of the argument is that the files are independent from reality because Monika could create and destroy the universe inside over and over without damaging the files, and the complete destruction of the game happened ONLY after that Monika deleted the files themselves rather than just the universe within.

After all the MES Mail did mention that Monika created then destroyed the universe, something mentioned in the Note 2 of her profile:

Ah this is gonna be a headache since idk jack about the plus stuff, but I'll try;

So basically, Monika destroyed the universe multiple times and recreated it, therefore, that implies Files are type 1, yes? Is there any proof that the files themselves weren't destroyed as well? Ie any evidence on why the files weren't damaged or anything like that, since there's no mention of it not being damaged or smth? This thing is a headache to go through, but currently, I'm leaning towards Type 1.

The argument is that the verse treats nothingness as a concept that the files make up, so deleting a character file = deleting from both.

Is the only evidence of "nothingness" as a concept due to the whole void shenanigans (which as I mentioned, is a bit dubious due to the whole stars in the background, but again, I recall a statement about them being fake iirc, but I might be wrong), or is it because of Monika's erasure?

In both her current profile regarding CM and the CRT I linked, yes.

The current evidence for CM on her profile can also just equally work for Info type 2 ngl, but since It is already accepted, I guess I can't argue, and no way I'm gonna make a CRT for that.

Alrighty.

If you see the scans for Mind Manipulation and her Resistances, you'd see that files in DDLC make up mind, personality and memories too.

Very cool, okay.

Besides there's also this for a character getting Mid-Godly for resurrecting from a fundamentally abstract plane.

I mean, cool? That's still a whataboutism argument, and that profile could very well be wrong (I have no knowledge on that profile).

What matters is if she got erased or not, as the regeneration page mentions;

The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, soul, and at least one other fundamental aspect of a character's existence.

Which, currently, there's no evidence of the soul destruction. I'm fine with Immo and resurrection, but like, the regen quite literally doesn't qualify for one of the things it requires to be erased, ie the soul.
Also, I noticed something from NEP on the profile;

Limited Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 2, 3, 4, 5 [History and Plot] & possibly 1) and Incorporeality (Appears as corrupted visuals and can still act and use her powers after having her Character File deleted, which means that, other than getting deleted from history, it causes the erasure of the target's concept, information and plot, with files also shaping one's personality,, memories, and also possibly the soul as well due to files shaping the whole of reality and its various aspects,

Which is like... why? If there's no mention of a soul in the verse, why would we automatically assume it is NEP as well, if there's no mention whatsoever?

High Godly comes from stuff in her profile.

Regeneration (Not combat applicable and High-Godly overtime; After the deletion of the game, she's implied to have returned as she is able to still post on her Twitter account, which is recognized from the Metaverse Enterprise Solutions, though this seemingly takes some time)

This, I assume? If so, there's still... no evidence of soul stuff? Like no mention at all.

TBF, you've mentioned that you just speak from the CRT, so for context, I'd really suggest you to get both the 2022 CRT and the profiles, as a lot of my arguments base on already accepted things.

I've read the CRT (more like skimmed through it and read the more interesting parts more intently, ie the cupcake and sayori stuff, although the Plus stuff is still interesting), and the page, but like, some stuff just doesn't seem to make sense? Why is the soul automatically assumed to be NEP, why is it high-godly with no soul, etc...?

Other than that, everything else seems fine. But for now, I'm neutral with NEP (still unsure about the soul stuff), disagree with High-Godly for now (due to soul shenanigans), neutral, leaning towards agreement with Type 1.

I think getting Bambu here, one of the people who was initially arguing about Concept shtick (I haven't seen him in the 2022 thread). Since, well, I think he could help clarify some things, tho he'd probably be like "Anime stuff, cringe. Cease."

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which... is plot manipulation? I don't get it, It's just Plot Manipulation if it's about the script, because the way you mentioned it seems to imply plot "editing the script (plot)", and really, I don't think just "badly edited" and "props in a scripted play" should automatically get fate manipulation, if it's already addressed as Plot Manipulation.

Just confused here, what are you trying to imply here? Is it Fate Manipulation, or is it Plot Manipulation (Script stuff), or are you trying to imply both for... some reason, since both of them functionally can do this? It seems like plot rather than actual, legit metaphysical fate in the verse, ngl. But I'll wait for more arguments.

The Fate thing is just a support for Plot here, aye.

So basically, Monika destroyed the universe multiple times and recreated it, therefore, that implies Files are type 1, yes? Is there any proof that the files themselves weren't destroyed as well? Ie any evidence on why the files weren't damaged or anything like that, since there's no mention of it not being damaged or smth? This thing is a headache to go through, but currently, I'm leaning towards Type 1.

Because the only instance when the files are explicitly destroyed is at the end of Act 4, and this causes the game to not work anymore and force the player to hard reset it using "reset.sh", something that replaces the old Monika with a new one as I mentioned above in the CRT.

This wasn't mentioned in the mail, Monika destroyed and remade the reality within the game multiple times without using this, as doing so would delete the very files necessary to do this, and the only way to undo such a way is use reset.sh, which is something only the creators of the game can do, which would kill Monika as well.

Is the only evidence of "nothingness" as a concept due to the whole void shenanigans (which as I mentioned, is a bit dubious due to the whole stars in the background, but again, I recall a statement about them being fake iirc, but I might be wrong), or is it because of Monika's erasure?

I don't think stars being there is a good debunk as Monika reality warps really heavily, meaning it can be just a background created by Monika herself.

The evidence of nothingness is due to Monika saying that nothing is left anymore there as supported by also script and time being kinda gone, which is something like the Tournament of Power of Dragon Ball (which is NEP here, btw), if you get what I am saying.

Which is like... why? If there's no mention of a soul in the verse, why would we automatically assume it is NEP as well, if there's no mention whatsoever?

It was accepted here due to the fact that files make up every single aspect of reality, so them somehow excluding the soul while making up stuff like history or fundamental concepts is indeed weird.

But even then, the reason is because the Resurrection here works akin to Regeneration, you get HGR by restoring from a conceptual erasure despite not having evidence of mind/soul being erased, and this works the same but in reverse (as it's also Type 8 immortality), Monika can just resurrect as long as her file exists, there's just no reason to assume she can't if her soul gets nuked, for the same reason why we don't say that High Godly regen people can't regen if only their soul gets destoyed.

Like if a character regenerates from being erased across History, we just give that rating because it's a fundamental aspect that's being destroyed, one that allows them to even have existed, saying that a soul erasure can kill them just because the verse does not mention it is just silly (unless History in that verse selectively does not include the soul fsr).

 

[Rikimarox2]

The Fate thing is just a support for Plot here, aye.

I don't see why we don't just slap Plot Manip, instead of assuming Fate is also part of it when there really isn't anything supporting fate being an actual thing in-verse? Like there isn't an actual metaphysical thing or concept called "fate" in verse, it's just the Plot itself.

Currently disagree, might change depending on other arguments.

Because the only instance when the files are explicitly destroyed is at the end of Act 4, and this causes the game to not work anymore and force the player to hard reset it using "reset.sh", something that replaces the old Monika with a new one as I mentioned above in the CRT.

This wasn't mentioned in the mail, Monika destroyed and remade the reality within the game multiple times without using this, as doing so would delete the very files necessary to do this, and the only way to undo such a way is use reset.sh, which is something only the creators of the game can do, which would kill Monika as well.

Ngl brother, I'm feeling kinda iffy on this. Neutral for now, tho if staff agrees with it, I don't really mind.

I don't think stars being there is a good debunk as Monika reality warps really heavily, meaning it can be just a background created by Monika herself.

The evidence of nothingness is due to Monika saying that nothing is left anymore there as supported by also script and time being kinda gone, which is something like the Tournament of Power of Dragon Ball (which is NEP here, btw), if you get what I am saying.

Same as above, I feel really iffy on this one. I don't think assuming "Nothing is left" therefore "nothingness is a concept in verse" is enough. Disagree for now (also I don't know how DB did it, but eh, doesn't really matter here as they could also be wrong)

It was accepted here due to the fact that files make up every single aspect of reality, so them somehow excluding the soul while making up stuff like history or fundamental concepts is indeed weird.

But even then, the reason is because the Resurrection here works akin to Regeneration, you get HGR by restoring from a conceptual erasure despite not having evidence of mind/soul being erased, and this works the same but in reverse (as it's also Type 8 immortality), Monika can just resurrect as long as her file exists, there's just no reason to assume she can't if her soul gets nuked, for the same reason why we don't say that High Godly regen people can't regen if only their soul gets destoyed.

Like if a character regenerates from being erased across History, we just give that rating because it's a fundamental aspect that's being destroyed, one that allows them to even have existed, saying that a soul erasure can kill them just because the verse does not mention it is just silly (unless History in that verse selectively does not include the soul fsr).

The problem is we are ignoring an actual requirement of the regeneration page because of "makes everything, therefore soul as well, even if soul isn't mentioned or even hinted at anywhere in the verse", which is like... what?

A verse can have concepts, information, etc... but still have no soul manipulation whatsoever, simply because it is not mentioned anywhere.

It being silly, ngl, I don't get? As verses have different levels on what is considered fundamental, and to automatically assume soul is part of it, when there is no mention of it whatsoever anywhere, and even assume that her NEP includes it, is just beyond me imho.

Of course, other people might agree, so for now, I'm neutral, leaning towards disagreements with this.

Honestly, I say let's just wait for more knowledgeable staff to see what'll happen, as I'm not that knowledgeable on this. If staff agree with High-Godly and think it is plausible, by all means, you could change my vote as well.

So, as it stands, Disagree with Fate stuff, Neutral for Type 1, Disagree for NEP2, Neutral, leaning towards disagreement with High-Godly (and NEP containing it, really). If staff could come here and clarify a few things, and think they are enough, by all means.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't see why we don't just slap Plot Manip, instead of assuming Fate is also part of it when there really isn't anything supporting fate being an actual thing in-verse? Like there isn't an actual metaphysical thing or concept called "fate" in verse, it's just the Plot itself.

If you see Monika's profile (the new one) I didn't apply Fate hax there lmao.

Though I can just replace it with "stories" in the profile if staff deem it necessary.

Same as above, I feel really iffy on this one. I don't think assuming "Nothing is left" therefore "nothingness is a concept in verse" is enough. Disagree for now (also I don't know how DB did it, but eh, doesn't really matter here as they could also be wrong)

Dragon Ball got it off it being a void without time, thus enough for Nature 1 Aspect 5. I don't make the rules, as Ben 10 also got for this same reason.

It's just how the site works mate.

It being silly, ngl, I don't get? As verses have different levels on what is considered fundamental, and to automatically assume soul is part of it, when there is no mention of it whatsoever anywhere, and even assume that her NEP includes it, is just beyond me imho.

This would imply that the concept that makes the basis of one's existence would somehow not include the soul.

It's just how the site works mate (2).

Besides it's even a bit off-topic, for you what regen would a character get if they get explicitly erased on a concept level, but no soul is mentioned? Would you still rate it at just Low Godly despite a fundamental aspect was destroyed? This wiki never worked like you're implying lol.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'd say wait for staff at this point, as majority of your arguments rely on the fact that other profiles got it, so therefore DDLC should get it as well (Whataboutism). I think staff could clarify a lot of the problems I have. The regen page explicitly mentions that it requires the soul to also be erased, along with the fundamental aspect. Do I think it's silly? Maybe, if there was a single mention of a soul in the verse. But if there is no mention of the soul whatsoever, welp.

Though my stance hasn't really changed, at least until staff clarify stuff and whatnot. If they agree, and think it is enough, just put me in agreement as well. Though Fate and NEP I'm still really skeptical about, even if other verses got it in some way (which, honestly, I don't really care that they got it, I don't have the entire context on how they got it, nor do I care, as how other verses got it really doesn't matter considering they could also be wrong).

 

[FinePoint]

10-A Monika​

I was just as shocked when I realized this. Monika is stated to be athletic, and the official website does support this, making the statement not just a "standard a lazy teenager of her age" that her profile says.

We literally have this in the tiering system for 10-A:

Monika fits the latter to a T, especially when she's vegetarian. Thus her physical stats should become from 10-B to 10-A.

I don't think her being a vegetarian has any impact on this. Also, while she's stated once to be athletic, she's also a teenager and we don't see anything athletic outside of that brief mention. For all I know she just plays Volleyball sometimes. Specifically, I believe 10-A is meant to describe athletes, like professionally, not just people who might be slightly athletic.

Nature 2 NEP, Type 1 Concept and Void Manipulation​

As it stands, the current justification for even having Conceptual Manipulation is a bit weak as there's the whole "it's just Type 2 Information" angle. So I have decided to revamp a bit, while discovering the following:

1. As we already know from her current profile, deleting a character file completely ***** up the character in question, something that is shown by Monika being able to alter a character by altering their file too, showing it works akin to a concept. Further evidence of this is that the script itself is a file, and altering it can change the fate, actions and dialogues of the other characters, something that Monika mentionsexplicitly, other than the fact that altering the script is implied to alter time as well.
2. The files are independent from the reality they govern, given that Monika has destroyed, recreated and reshaped the universe within said files over and over, with the game world being truly gone only when Monika deletes all the files, and at that point the only way to restore it is to to reset the Virtual Machine containing the game.
3. Going with the point above, the files are implied to also make nonexistence, as after remaking the game, Monika mentions that all that's left is a void with neither script nor time, as shown by also the fact that everything eventually disappears once that Monika is deleted, but she's still able to restore everything, with the game always working even there without giving the error message about the files missing.

Going with these points and the stuff that's already on the profiles, the files in DDLC shape everything, from information itself to metaphysical concepts like time, plot and fate, including also voids that lack these concepts entirely, and are completely independent from the reality that is based upon said files as well.

Because of this, Files would become from Type 2 a Type 1 Concept, the Nonexistent Physiology for Monika and Sayori becomes Nature Type 2, and the File Manipulation in DDLC will include also Void Manipulation as Monika could convert the game world in nothingness while still using the files (implying voids are included in the files), and would obviously increase the degree of EE for the characters able to use the file deletion. Given that the Demon Realm of DBH and True Form Arceus have NEP 2 from a similar argument, I don't think that DDLC should be excluded from this.

I'm not sure why we would change it from Type 2 Information to a Type 1 concept, given Type 2 information literally describes rewriting code to change the universe, similar to changing data in a simulation, which is literally what's happening in this case.

If anything, I think the files she manipulates are inherently not Type 1 concepts because they follow the higher logic defined by the coding language and the computer running it, which Monika definitely can't change (or the game would be banned off Steam).

In addition, a Type 1 concept would require changes to the medium it describes to not affect it in reverse, but every change made in the game does in fact alter the files to account for your save file, for example.

And I don't think Monika has Type 2 NEP. She does in fact rely on her file just like everyone else, evident by the fact that you literally delete her in order to beat the game.

As for the Void Manipulation, I don't really understand the argument. Isn't this just her deleting everything from the files?

Speed​

Probably the most controversial part of the revision is the speed. I personally ain't even sure of the arguments myself, as the line is REALLY blurry.

Monika's physical movements are unbothered by the state of the game, as she's perfectly fine when the game crashes or is stopped, and it's probably implied that Monika isn't affected from the fast-foward option.

I think it's clear that her movements are unbound from time, so here are 3 options:

1. All of these are resistances and nothing else, keep her at Average Human speed lol.
2. Unknown speed to show her becoming unbound from the game's processing speed unlike the other characters, only that the degree of this is purely unquantifiable.
3. Infinite if we take her being completely unbound from the flow of time in her movements (though this is likely wank as timeless voids don't give speed here, but something tell me that it's different here. Or not, I don't care if this gets rejected)

I think that both resisting fast-forward and moving while in a timeless void aren't really evidence of infinite speed.

I agree with the first option. It seems like she's either resisting time manipulation or used her previously discussed powers to delete the function from the game.

Cosmology and Range​

As mentioned in both her reworked AP and the Note in the new page, the DDLC universe is a place that is as real as the one of her creators and the player, especially if we take in account the fact that both worlds work like simulations and Monika can use her powers in both worlds.

And we have the following universes:

• Real World: The universe where the MES and the Player are in (with the latter being implied to be an employee for the latter as the physical edition of DDLC Plus has a MES business card which leads to a real website, just like the download page of the game and the real twitter account are both mentionedin-verse, other than the fact that the goal of the Player is to reset the game over and over until getting all the possible information, as shown by the game giving achievements anytime you interact with the main story in a different way per reset.
• VM1: The universe of DDLC we all know and love.
• Copy of VM1: The Side Stories of DDLC Plus are implied to take place in a copy of VM1 where Monika didn't get the "elevated permissions" that made her self-aware in the normal DDLC, as even confirmed by WoG saying that they take place in another timeline.
• VM2: The future project of the MES, which is stated to be a larger than VM1.

With this said, I think that the MES' attack potency should be upgraded from their 2 universes to 3 to include the copy of VM1 on top of the VM1 and VM2 that their servers already have.

Monika and Sayori's range should also become 2-C (2 or 3 universes) because of her being implied to be able to reach also the Player's world due to her managing to edit the download page of the game or to get a real Twitter account, although the latter was only possible due to the help of a MES employee, with her being also supposedly able to reach also the files of VM2, however it's unclear if it's solely due to issues regarding the MES servers.

I'm fine with adding one more universe, so long as I'm not missing any context.
How do we know she's not traveling to these other universes before affecting them, though?

Monika haxes addition​

This will aim to add haxes to Monika. Sometimes Sayori will also get them retroactively due to her being the President in Act 4, so if Sayori also gets this power, it'll be indicated to:

Supernatural Willpower (Thanks to the love she feels for the Player, Monika managed to endure the knowledge of her world not being real, something that she describes as a torture, with said knowledge greatly affecting normal individuals as also shown by Sayori radically changing her behavior or quickly lose her mind after gaining such awareness. Can also endure the game getting closed, which causes her mind to be assaulted from flashing lights and constant screaming with her being unable to form her own thoughts)

That's probably fine.

[Sayori too] Clairvoyance and Cosmic Awareness (Implied to be aware of everything that can happen in the game as she can see the script to know the events in her reality/game's history across past, present and future, as shown by her being aware of both Sayori's confession and suicide despite not being there when these events happened. This excludes the Player's actions due to them not belonging to that universe, although Monika knows when things of her game interact with them like when the Player uses save files, as shown by also Sayori being aware of all the save and loads performed in the game after getting Monika's powers)

How do we know this isn't Extrasensory Perception?

Sound Manipulation and Color Manipulation (Can play audio files, accelerate the music, and filter the music while making the screen red)

I guess.

[Sayori too] Immortality Types 4 and 8 (Can restore/resurrect herself as long as a backup of her character file exist, as shown by her restoring the deleted girls and her attempting to do the same to herself until realizing that her character file was deleted)

• This will also grant Mid-Godly Resurrection as the files from which Monika can recover are fundamental buildings blocks of reality as I mentioned above.

This is probably fine.

[Sayori too] Negation of Type 2 Nonexistent Physiology and High-Godly Regeneration (As already said in the profile, Monika has negated all of Sayori's when she got President powers in Act 4. Furthermore, she should have also negated her ability to regenerate her deleted character file. Should also be the same as Sayori who can permanently kill herself if she gets Monika's powers at the very beginning of the game)

[Sayori too] Full on Type 4 Acausality (It shouldn't be restricted to just her NEP self, as she's managed to break free from the script through her knowledge of the 4th wall. Because of this, reshaping the game to get rid of the script or changing it does not have any effect on her unlike other characters beneath it, with the script determining the world's time, history, causality, fate and history, with further proof being her sending a letter to the Player after the deletion of the whole game)

I suppose these depend on you addressing my previous issues.

Speaking of NEP, I moved all the abilities granted from it in a Tabber called Optional, as while Monika starts as an existent being normally, she can stay deleted by her own choice, and the only combat situation against a similar being was against Sayori in Act 4, where she was Nonexistent. Meaning that in a VS Thread, while Monika would by default start as an existing file, the Thread Starter can choose to make her start in NEP form, same with Sayori in her Act 4 key.

Again I need you to elaborate on this I suppose.
It's been a long time since I played the game, maybe you can help by re-summarizing the plot points at the end and in Act 4.

(Also why doesn't Sayori have Self-Sustenance? Monika got it by existing, Sayori should too)

I don't know. If Monika has it, Sayori probably does too.

reset.sh is busted lol​

Basically the reason why Monika's memories get reset anytime the Player resets the VM is because it's heavily implied it's a different Monika entirely.

Because of this, the Player and the MES should have Negation of High Godly Regen and Erasure of Nature 2 NEP, given they straight up destroy Monika and re-create her each time the reset.sh is used.

Or this is proof she's not NEP 2.

Weakness and Intelligence removal​

Monika got this in her weakness:

She has limited control over the game at first, only being capable of slightly affecting beings, though by the end of the game she can manipulate and even destroy the script at will.

This is blatantly untrue as the MES employeed admitted that her control over her world is less clumsy than they thought. This also probably comes from the statements of Monika herself saying that she's not that good at editing the game, when that's just the fact that she heavily undermines herself. Monika is a well known perfectionist, as she made a lot of stains on the paper when attempting to make her first poem, other than the fact that she doesn't think she's even worth to exist, meaning that Monika herself is not exactly a good reference regarding her skills.

I agree, from what I recall it was more that Monika didn't want to make it too obvious at first.

Also Sayori's Above Average for her Act 4 Key should be removed, being aware of prior events does not increase one's intelligence, and Sayori didn't showcase any notable intelligence feats in the game at all.

Agreed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think you understood half of what I am arguing, no offense.

I don't think her being a vegetarian has any impact on this. Also, while she's stated once to be athletic, she's also a teenager and we don't see anything athletic outside of that brief mention. For all I know she just plays Volleyball sometimes. Specifically, I believe 10-A is meant to describe athletes, like professionally, not just people who might be slightly athletic.

You're arguing against this site's description for 10-A. Regardless, all the characters have been stated to be 18.

I'm not sure why we would change it from Type 2 Information to a Type 1 concept, given Type 2 information literally describes rewriting code to change the universe, similar to changing data in a simulation, which is literally what's happening in this case.

It's both, actually. Nothing stops the files from being both Information and Concept as said here.

If anything, I think the files she manipulates are inherently not Type 1 concepts because they follow the higher logic defined by the coding language and the computer running it, which Monika definitely can't change (or the game would be banned off Steam).

Yeah because in Plus it does not happen in the actual PC but in a Virtual Machine, hence why you boot up in another PC with the game inside when opening DDLC Plus. Did you play it, or just the Vanilla DDLC? Because stuff is pretty different between the two.

In addition, a Type 1 concept would require changes to the medium it describes to not affect it in reverse, but every change made in the game does in fact alter the files to account for your save file, for example.

...no? The save files actually are the things shaping the actions within them as they're made of ifs and references.

Also, if they're not independent, how do you explain Monika destroying the universe within the files without deleting them like she did in Act 4?

And I don't think Monika has Type 2 NEP. She does in fact rely on her file just like everyone else, evident by the fact that you literally delete her in order to beat the game.

As for the Void Manipulation, I don't really understand the argument. Isn't this just her deleting everything from the files?

I am arguing that files make both existence and nonexistence as even the universe in a void state is still within the files and given these make up concepts as I said, then even the concept of nothingness is included. The void hax comes from her reducing everything to nothingness in Act 3, did you even click the scans?

You somehow have skipped this entirely for the lols.

How do we know she's not traveling to these other universes before affecting them, though?

The entire point of the story is her being stuck in her reality and being unable to reach the others.

Again I need you to elaborate on this I suppose.
It's been a long time since I played the game, maybe you can help by resummarizing the plot points at the end and in Act 4.

Right now her profile it's said she can achieve the NEP at her deletion, but she starts as an existent being at whatever VS Thread.

My aim is to make the ability something that the OP of the thread can make Monika start right off the bat, as Monika chooses to stay deleted even if you put back, and she did fight Sayori in Act 4 (when she got Monika's powers due to being the new President) as a NEP being too.

Or this is proof she's not NEP 2.

No, this is them being able to affect such beings given they kinda... created her.

Like, are you unironically arguing that if a NEP 2 character gets erased, then it's an anti-feat for the NEP being than a feat of the being who did it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

How do we know this isn't Extrasensory Perception?

Forgot this.

Because that ability is akin to use some kind of sixth (or more) sense to perceive stuff which cannot be detected by 5 senses.

Being able to access the script that tells everything happening is not related to senses, lol.

 

[Rikimarox2]

It's both, actually. Nothing stops the files from being both Information and Concept as said here.

True. The problem here is that everything mentioned in that CRT could literally just be attributed to "Info Type 2", instead of Concept as well, especially since the entire game is about game data (information), and manipulating that data (Script, Files, etc...). At least, that's what I think he's arguing. However, considering that they are currently accepted as Concept, so like, I'm not sure if it can be changed here, if that's what he wants.

I am arguing that files make both existence and nonexistence as even the universe in a void state is still within the files and given these make up concepts as I said, then even the concept of nothingness is included. The void hax comes from her reducing everything to nothingness in Act 3, did you even click the scans?

The problem is the "Void" state here, just doesn't seem like a void? Like In many other series, literally just being in outer space is considered a "Void", not to mention the whole stars and stuff, which the only counter against that, currently, is Monika just being le funny and deciding to add them for show.

Honestly, I think adding NEP2, a real potent ability, just on these scans alone (and even stating that there is a concept of "Nothingness" with no direct mention whatsoever for it) just seems really weak.

My aim is to make the ability something that the OP of the thread can make Monika start right off the bat, as Monika chooses to stay deleted even if you put back, and she did fight Sayori in Act 4 (when she got Monika's powers due to being the new President) as a NEP being too.

Also for this, after re-reading the scans, wasn't she in a really ****** up state? IIRC she immediately just, lolnoped out after defeating Sayori. Not sure if that can change anything, but just wanted to point it out, maybe mention it somewhere?

No, this is them being able to affect such beings given they kinda... created her.

Like, are you unironically arguing that if a NEP 2 character gets erased, then it's an anti-feat for the NEP being than a feat of the being who did it?

I don't think that's what he's arguing, but that, since she was already erased (and already pretty ******, from what I can tell), the Reset.Sh making another one of her shows that she wasn't in a "NEP" state, but rather, she was already gone by that point (from the scans, her sending one last letter about loving the club and shit), with her being able to delete Sayori is just being a last ditch effort (Supernatural Willpower?) and ceasing, from what I can tell. Not saying I agree with that or anything, but that's what I thought he meant.


My stance is still the same, just wanted to chime in.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with a lot of the things Riki Mario has said.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Longer walls of text than one might have anticipated. Horrible.

• 10-A Monika: I think it works as a possibly? FinePoint is right to point out that like. She's still a child. But I think the evidence is there enough to be fine with this.
• Concept/NEP: I don't have much substantive to add here, I agree that these aren't supported. Void Manip is basically just EE here, so neutral, ig.
• Speed: The ff argument doesn't make sense, she states the button doesn't work because time doesn't exist anymore. This just falls into timeless void territory. Option 1 is fine.
• Cosmology/Range: Some of the links seem to not be working (for example, the one in the current note suggesting that Monika's world is just as real as ours). I will note that the AP for the company should be 2-C ED, since they seem to imply they can't exert that level of control over their own universe, and deleting these other ones is jst a side effect of a relatively small amount of damage in ours. Other than that, agree.
• Weakness: Agreed.

I'll get to the abilities later when I've the time.

I agree with a lot of the things Riki Mario has said.

not the damn ricky mario...

 

[StrymULTRA]

Using some time I have before I go to work, will reply to whatever comes next later today.

Also for this, after re-reading the scans, wasn't she in a really ****** up state? IIRC she immediately just, lolnoped out after defeating Sayori. Not sure if that can change anything, but just wanted to point it out, maybe mention it somewhere?

Nah. She just does not need to exist, she just didn't know that prior.

I agree with a lot of the things Riki Mario has said.

Are you sure? You agreed on the Demon Realm being NEP 2, why is it better than the DDLC case here?

• 10-A Monika: I think it works as a possibly? FinePoint is right to point out that like. She's still a child. But I think the evidence is there enough to be fine with this.

Calling a 18 years old a child is eeeh.

• Concept/NEP: I don't have much substantive to add here, I agree that these aren't supported. Void Manip is basically just EE here, so neutral, ig.

By EE I meant just the ability to delete the character files, as I wanted to point out the distinction between reducing the world in the timeless void state and just deleting the files making said world.

Some of the links seem to not be working (for example, the one in the current note suggesting that Monika's world is just as real as ours).

Which links?

Also idk what you mean, for me it works fine. The link you're talking about is this

Mails (DDLC Plus)

Mail can be accessed when you exit DDLC and go to the desktop menu. Unlocking new emails depends on how much data the player has collected. This can be checked in the Settings menu from the game's Metaverse desktop. Once the player passes a new threshold, a notification will appear above the...

doki-doki-literature-club.fandom.com

 

[Vietthai96]

Seriously, no offense, but can we stop with keep mentioning other verses as the main defending points rather than actually explain why the verse qualify with some certain abilities via in-verse context?

I'm not exactly fond with whataboutism strategy as main point in debate here, where you force others to either accept your argument for some abilities cause other verses have them, or if you do not then let downgrade that other verses that was mentioned cause you do not accept the argument

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Calling a 18 years old a child is eeeh.

(They are a child)

Which links?

Also idk what you mean, for me it works fine. The link you're talking about is this

Yeah it didn't work before, conceivably might have been a temporary Fandom thing? Either way.

 

[Johner2133451]

Seriously, no offense, but can we stop with keep mentioning other verses as the main defending points rather than actually explain why the verse qualify with some certain abilities via in-verse context?

I'm not exactly fond with whataboutism strategy as main point in debate here, where you force others to either accept your argument for some abilities cause other verses have them, or if you do not then let downgrade that other verses that was mentioned cause you do not accept the argument

Well whataboutism is a decent way to remove hypocrisy in scaling. Especially when the site is govern by multiple staffs with each having differ opinions

 

[Vietthai96]

Well whataboutism is a decent way to remove hypocrisy in scaling. Especially when the site is govern by multiple staffs with each having differ opinions

It isn't, especially when it being the main point of the argument and was repeatedly brought up, prove that you can't actually arguing and can only using other verses as your shield. I don't really against whataboutism, but it should be a very minor part of your argument and not being abused in debate

 

[Rikimarox2]

I agree with a lot of the things Riki Mario has said.

Riki Mario

Man... The name sounds funny af tho, ngl.

Well whataboutism is a decent way to remove hypocrisy in scaling. Especially when the site is govern by multiple staffs with each having differ opinions

It becomes a problem when it is the main argument (Like, it is used 5-6 times here). Why those characters got it, it doesn't matter, as they could all be wrong as well. Focus on the main argument here, rather than every other profile (I mean, profiles get constantly changed all the time, so it's not like they are fixed. Something that was accepted once, could become wrong later on)

Anyways, brb changing my name to Riki Mario.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Seriously, no offense, but can we stop with keep mentioning other verses as the main defending points rather than actually explain why the verse qualify with some certain abilities via in-verse context?

I'm not exactly fond with whataboutism strategy as main point in debate here, where you force others to either accept your argument for some abilities cause other verses have them, or if you do not then let downgrade that other verses that was mentioned cause you do not accept the argument

You're misinterpreting my point entirely.

I did say why it qualifies, and only use those verses as a support, because if Dragon Ball and Ben 10 get Timeless voids as accepted as NEP 1 for the same reason, there's no reason why DDLC shouldn't either, unless it somehow is a black sheep here just because we don't want it to qualify.

You, especially, are a DBH supporter. I think that just complaining rather than saying why DBH can and DDLC can't is not really productive, especially when DDLC seems to follow the same thing of the conceptual thing making up also voids, with stuff beyond said concept being NEP 2.

Well whataboutism is a decent way to remove hypocrisy in scaling. Especially when the site is govern by multiple staffs with each having differ opinions

It becomes a problem when it is the main argument (Like, it is used 5-6 times here). Why those characters got it, it doesn't matter, as they could all be wrong as well. Focus on the main argument here, rather than every other profile (I mean, profiles get constantly changed all the time, so it's not like they are fixed. Something that was accepted once, could become wrong later on)

This is very true, what I am doing is pointing out the double standards, something that does plague this wiki I am afraid.

I am not gonna be petty and downgrade DBH if this fails, btw. Just that It's very sad if people will scream "why are you using other verses for your argument?!" without saying why DDLC doesn't qualify beyond "it's iffy and I don't really buy it". It's really discouraging.

 

[SweetDao]

I don't have much to say here, as everything was more or less stated. I mostly share Bambu's opinion.

 

[Vietthai96]

I did say why it qualifies, and only use those verses as a support, because if Dragon Ball and Ben 10 get Timeless voids as accepted as NEP 1 for the same reason, there's no reason why DDLC shouldn't either, unless it somehow is a black sheep here just because we don't want it to qualify.

You, especially, are a DBH supporter. I think that just complaining rather than saying why DBH can and DDLC can't is not really productive, especially when DDLC seems to follow the same thing of the conceptual thing making up also voids, with stuff beyond said concept being NEP 2.

i didn't even saying DDLC isn't qualify or not, what i don't like is the repeatedly whataboutism.

About Ben 10, i can't say anything cause idk the verse, but with DBH, we have World of Void which is directly stated to be a realm of nothingness that lack time and space, time and space, or dimensional axes, are necessity components that make up the existence of what we called dimension, realm,....... Realms that lack time and space mean they are lacking necessity components that make up their existences, that mean they are a void, a void is by default NEP1 according to NEP standard itself. If you used Demon Realm as example, then you should also see Subspace which devoid concept of time and space, which make it similar to WoV aside from lacking thing at conceptual level

Aide from whataboutism, you are using DBH Demon Realm as example, which a wrong way to compare, because Demon Realm is a realm, dimension while Monika is a person, even if we ignore the whataboutism, this kind of comparison is literally a false equivalent. The demon realm being NEP2 is because it is a nonexistent dimension (a void) that beyond both conventional nonexistent dimension and existent dimension, in another word, a realm compare to other realms with said realm being beyond existent realm and nonexistent realm

Now talking about Monika, idk the context so you can correct me, but idk why you mentioning concepts and stuffs like plot, cause they are aspects not nature, lacking more aspects do not make you more nonexistent, your nature stay the same, just lacking more aspects. Is Monika more nonexistent compare to the nonexistent that left after everything is deleted??, or since you mentioned DBH Demon Realm, is her erased nature is beyond both the void and anything that is considered as existent??, she capable of restore everything isn't really help the argument for NEP, this could be Void hax however as reverse nonexistent back to existent is a feat of Void hax, or Restoration

 

[StrymULTRA]

Aide from whataboutism, you are using DBH Demon Realm as example, which a wrong way to compare, because Demon Realm is a realm, dimension while Monika is a person, even if we ignore the whataboutism, this kind of comparison is literally a false equivalent. The demon realm being NEP2 is because it is a nonexistent dimension (a void) that beyond both conventional nonexistent dimension and existent dimension, in another word, a realm compare to other realms with said realm being beyond existent realm and nonexistent realm

Now talking about Monika, idk the context so you can correct me, but idk why you mentioning concepts and stuffs like plot, cause they are aspects not nature, lacking more aspects do not make you more nonexistent, your nature stay the same, just lacking more aspects. Is Monika more nonexistent compare to the nonexistent that left after everything is deleted??, or since you mentioned DBH Demon Realm, is her erased nature is beyond both the void and anything that is considered as existent??, she capable of restore everything isn't really help the argument for NEP, this could be Void hax however as reverse nonexistent back to existent is a feat of Void hax, or Restoration

My argument is another one.

Going with the point above, the files are implied to also make nonexistence, as after remaking the game, Monika mentions that all that's left is a void with neither script nor time, as shown by also the fact that everything eventually disappears once that Monika is deleted, but she's still able to restore everything, with the game always working even there without giving the error message about the files missing.

What I am arguing here is that in Act 3 Monika reduced the world in a void without script or time while still maintaining the game files intact, as the game still works fine even if the reality within it is isn't.

The game gets permanently destroyed only when Monika actually deletes those files in Act 4, thus meaning that the files shape both existence and nonexistence, with the latter being the void that Monika made in Act 3. Being deleted from the files would logically mean you're deleted beyond both things, especially when files make up concepts like time and script (with the latter being a file too, mind you), and altering a character file does the same effect to the the character in itself.

TLDR: I am arguing that Deleted form > Files > Voids without time.

 

[FinePoint]

I don't think you understood half of what I am arguing, no offense.

No offense taken. I only commented here because I was specifically asked to. I'm not exactly an expert on how this site deals with DDLC, and I did not play DDLC Plus, only the first version.

That's why a lot of what I said was phrased as questions, because I'm still trying to fully grasp it all in this context. I'm always open to changing my mind, especially if I was missing context before, so thank you for taking the time to reply to all my concerns.

You're arguing against this site's description for 10-A. Regardless, all the characters have been stated to be 18.

"Characters or objects capable of exerting force comparable to that of more athletic humans, such as trained fighters or generally physically fit individuals."

I acknowledge that being "physically fit" can apply too, but that's sort of a subjective criteria. I would want more evidence than a teenager (which 18 is, and the wording I used) being called "athletic" once without any supporting feats.

That said, I'm fine with a "possibly" as Bambu mentioned. I forgor that is something we can do.

It's both, actually. Nothing stops the files from being both Information and Concept as said here.

Well for the record I think Type 2 is fine, since it's a far lower bar. I'm simply struggling to see how the files which define a video game are independent from it in a literal sense.

Yeah because in Plus it does not happen in the actual PC but in a Virtual Machine, hence why you boot up in another PC with the game inside when opening DDLC Plus. Did you play it, or just the Vanilla DDLC? Because stuff is pretty different between the two.

...no? The save files actually are the things shaping the actions within them as they're made of ifs and references.

Also, if they're not independent, how do you explain Monika destroying the universe within the files without deleting them like she did in Act 4?

I am arguing that files make both existence and nonexistence as even the universe in a void state is still within the files and given these make up concepts as I said, then even the concept of nothingness is included. The void hax comes from her reducing everything to nothingness in Act 3, did you even click the scans?

I did only play vanilla, my apologies.

Anyway, I would compare it to simply destroying all the matter within a Low 2-C universe without destroying the timeline itself.

I did click the scans, and I know what scene you're talking about.

I think it's just another application of her Type 2 Info/Type 2 Concept Manip being used to destroy anything, I'm not sure she'd need to manipulate the void directly to achieve it.

The entire point of the story is her being stuck in her reality and being unable to reach the others.

Then the range is probably fine.

Right now her profile it's said she can achieve the NEP at her deletion, but she starts as an existent being at whatever VS Thread.

My aim is to make the ability something that the OP of the thread can make Monika start right off the bat, as Monika chooses to stay deleted even if you put back, and she did fight Sayori in Act 4 (when she got Monika's powers due to being the new President) as a NEP being too.

No, this is them being able to affect such beings given they kinda... created her.

Like, are you unironically arguing that if a NEP 2 character gets erased, then it's an anti-feat for the NEP being than a feat of the being who did it?

No, I'm arguing that I needed more context.

I suppose I'm unclear if choosing to stay deleted is NEP or just repeatedly deleting yourself.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Man... The name sounds funny af tho, ngl.

When ever I read your name, "Riki Mario" ends up coming to my mind.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Now talking about Monika, idk the context so you can correct me, but idk why you mentioning concepts and stuffs like plot, cause they are aspects not nature, lacking more aspects do not make you more nonexistent, your nature stay the same, just lacking more aspects. Is Monika more nonexistent compare to the nonexistent that left after everything is deleted??, or since you mentioned DBH Demon Realm, is her erased nature is beyond both the void and anything that is considered as existent??, she capable of restore everything isn't really help the argument for NEP, this could be Void hax however as reverse nonexistent back to existent is a feat of Void hax, or Restoration

The current argument is that Monika made a void (Reduced/removed everything) or whatever, since time is gone, and states that "nothing is left" (Basically Styrm's reply, kind of). My counter was that there was still star shenanigans in the background, classroom shtick, etc... and could very well be just, space. And I do not think slapping a NEP rating for something this ambiguous, especially something like NEP2. Tho I think other people might agree, maybe it's enough for them, so eh.

Nah. She just does not need to exist, she just didn't know that prior.

Can I get the scan for that?

Well for the record I think Type 2 is fine, since it's a far lower bar. I'm simply struggling to see how the files which define a video game are independent from it in a literal sense.

I did only play vanilla, my apologies.

Anyway, I would compare it to simply destroying all the matter within a Low 2-C universe without destroying the timeline itself.

The files being independent is just straight up that scan of destroying the universe, iirc.

Though, I'm not sure about concept stuff, but would it require the entire destruction of the timeline to show independence, or is destroying all the matter is enough?

 

[FinePoint]

The files being independent is just straight up that scan of destroying the universe, iirc.

Though, I'm not sure about concept stuff, but would it require the entire destruction of the timeline to show independence, or is destroying all the matter is enough?

It would be far more convincing, since it would prove the files can exist without the thing they're describing.

It's already obvious that changing the files changes the universe, and so deleting them would delete the universe.

To be Type 1, the reverse can't be true- that even if you deleted the entire universe the Type 1 concept would still exist.
That we don't have proof of, since there technically was still stuff in the game at the time, even if it was very little/mostly a void.

In this context, we'd need a stronger statement that the entire game is deleted, rather than just everything in it.

 

[Rikimarox2]

It would be far more convincing, since it would prove the files can exist without the thing they're describing.

It's already obvious that changing the files changes the universe, and so deleting them would delete the universe.

To be Type 1, the reverse can't be true- that even if you deleted the entire universe the Type 1 concept would still exist.
That we don't have proof of, since there technically was still stuff in the game at the time, even if it was very little/mostly a void.

In this context, we'd need a stronger statement that the entire game is deleted, rather than just everything in it.

I think when talking about the destruction of the universe, that would usually imply everything, no? I don't think it was the same as the whole void stuff, but rather total destruction (at least, I think so). Though I could be misinterpreting the scans. It could also be the whole distorting reality like she did in the game via reality shenanigans, and recreated it later on, but eh, I feel like that requires a bit of mental gymnastics, idk. Or do you still think it is not enough for an ability like Type 1?

I think we also accept universes as timelines, no? Since her tier 2 rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, I'm arguing that I needed more context.

I suppose I'm unclear if choosing to stay deleted is NEP or just repeatedly deleting yourself.

Basically, after that you delete Monika in Act 3, she'll remain deleted for the rest of the game, including. However, if you attempt to insert a copy of her .chr file back, she'll say something about her not wanting to have her heart toyed with again and delete the file herself.

For the reset.sh stuff, that stuff happens only when Monika deletes the game through directly deleting all the files, which then, unlike when it happened at the end of Act 3, she wouldn't be able to restore the reality as the files are lacking entirely in that case.

Anyway, I would compare it to simply destroying all the matter within a Low 2-C universe without destroying the timeline itself.

I did click the scans, and I know what scene you're talking about.

I think it's just another application of her Type 2 Info/Type 2 Concept Manip being used to destroy anything, I'm not sure she'd need to manipulate the void directly to achieve it.

My main argument is that she can indeed the universe on a Low 2-C degree without deleting the file of the game, as she mentions that time does not exist anymore in Act 3, and alongside the fact that Monika mentions that "nothing exists anymore", I interpret it as being a void without time, which would go in line with the "destroying the universe over and over" statement above.

I agree that I could've worded the argument better in OP, but the full explanation is in the sandbox in the new profile that I linked above.

Can I get the scan for that?

Monika mentions that she can get in danger if something happens to her character file multiple times, but when it actually happens, Monika describes it as painful, but doesn't truly disappear, existing as just a glicthed mess that happens when the game tries to interpret deleted characters.

To be Type 1, the reverse can't be true- that even if you deleted the entire universe the Type 1 concept would still exist.
That we don't have proof of, since there technically was still stuff in the game at the time, even if it was very little/mostly a void.

Isn't reducing everything to a timeless void enough? Because a timeline cannot really exist without time, especially as a void.

I think we also accept universes as timelines, no? Since her tier 2 rating.

• VM1: The universe of DDLC we all know and love.
• Copy of VM1: The Side Stories of DDLC Plus are implied to take place in a copy of VM1 where Monika didn't get the "elevated permissions" that made her self-aware in the normal DDLC, as even confirmed by WoG saying that they take place in another timeline.

They explicitly are, yes. Especially when deleting the flow of time in the game does not impact the Player, implying that each VM is its own space-time continuum.

 

[Rikimarox2]

My main argument is that she can indeed the universe on a Low 2-C degree without deleting the file of the game, as she mentions that time does not exist anymore in Act 3, and alongside the fact that Monika mentions that "nothing exists anymore", I interpret it as being a void without time, which would go in line with the "destroying the universe over and over" statement above.

I wouldn't really interpret it as a void, tbh, since yknow, all the other stuff existing in stuff, but that could just be me nitpicking. I don't find it enough, so do other staff from what I'm seeing, but maybe some other staff could think it's enough.

I agree that I could've worded the argument better in OP, but the full explanation is in the sandbox in the new profile that I linked above.

Monika mentions that she can get in danger if something happens to her character file multiple times, but when it actually happens, Monika describes it as painful, but doesn't truly disappear, existing as just a glicthed mess that happens when the game tries to interpret deleted characters.

Didn't she barely hang on? Especially since, iirc, the game just... ends after that, no? I don't think we have anymore of her after the scene with Sayori, and in Plus, iirc, she made a note, and just... disappeared, from what I can tell. Also, do remind me, wasn't there a statement that even after deleting the Chr files, some lines of the characters still exist/linger or smth? Or am I tripping and confusing it with something else?

Anyways, I interpreted the scene as her barely hanging on and it being painful as shit, with her eventually truly disappearing afterwards. Though I guess my interpretation could be flawed, I'll see what others think. I think the inserting her file back could be shown as proof, though It could also just be her file itself acting, but eh, I'm not sure tbh, I'd appreciate more elaboration.

They explicitly are, yes. Especially when deleting the flow of time in the game does not impact the Player, implying that each VM is its own space-time continuum.

Gucci. I'll wait for more staff.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Didn't she barely hang on? Especially since, iirc, the game just... ends after that, no? I don't think we have anymore of her after the scene with Sayori, and in Plus, iirc, she made a note, and just... disappeared, from what I can tell.

The thing is a complete headcanon as nothing ever hinted that she "eventually disappeared", she was perfectly fine as a deleted character and nothing ever hinted that, I have no idea from where it comes from.

It was never hinted or implied anywhere in Act 4, I have no idea from where this interpretation even comes from.

Also, do remind me, wasn't there a statement that even after deleting the Chr files, some lines of the characters still exist/linger or smth? Or am I tripping and confusing it with something else?

Monika mentions that she'll be fine as long as there's a backup of her character file, and she tries to reach that when we delete her only to realize that there's no copy of said character anywhere in the game. So it's far more likely that she made back-ups of the files prior to deleting them due to self-doubt, but that wouldn't really affect the main game as they're not registered by the main story anymore.

I think the inserting her file back could be shown as proof, though It could also just be her file itself acting, but eh, I'm not sure tbh, I'd appreciate more elaboration.

She literally deletes her own file from her "characters" folder out of spite against you, she says that she does not want to come back. Man, no offense but you're fanfic-ing at this point.

 

[Rikimarox2]

The thing is a complete headcanon as nothing ever hinted that she "eventually disappeared", she was perfectly fine as a deleted character and nothing ever hinted that, I have no idea from where it comes from.

It was never hinted or implied anywhere in Act 4, I have no idea from where this interpretation even comes from.

I was thinking it came from the whole "note" after the end, and the fact that she just- never appeared again, and the game ended. Though I guess your interpretation makes more sense.

She literally deletes her own file from her "characters" folder out of spite against you, she says that she does not want to come back. Man, no offense but you're fanfic-ing at this point.

Very well, though idk, with her whole "not wanting to come back" and shit, but I'll wait.

Also, don't do these kinds of awful remarks. I haven't played the game in god knows how long, and trying to understand your arguments and stuff going on. If you don't agree with it, just debunk and that's it. That kind of shit is unnecessary, just produces toxicity, and is annoying as shit. Saying "No offense" while giving this remark doesn't make it any better. Just respond properly, debunk it with evidence (like the video scan), do whatever, but don't do shitty remarks, mate. Completely unnecessary.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, don't do these kinds of awful remarks. I haven't played the game in god knows how long. If you don't agree with it, just debunk and that's it. That kind of shit is unnecessary, just produces toxicity, and is annoying as shit. Saying "No offense" while giving this remark doesn't make it any better. Either respond properly, debunk it with evidence (like the video scan), do whatever, but don't do shitty remarks, mate. Completely unnecessary.

Alright, sorry for that, I just am not in the best state of mind atm so I came out as unneccessary rude here without realizing it.

 

[Rikimarox2]

All cool, mate. Hope you get better!

 

[Johner2133451]

For my opinion on this CRT (not that it matters), 10-A seems weird just simply being vegan. Type 1 Concept seems to lack proof as well

But agree with the rest